The crux of Ukrainian issue

[Couchpotato]

White 6

What are you disagreeing with exactly?

 

[White 6]

White 6

What are you disagreeing with exactly?

I am disagreeing with the folks that say, Ukraine cannot defend against Russia, if that is what they continue to want to do, and they continue to get the weapons and material support, either from US and EU or just the EU, for that matter, if the US decides it really is time to give up supporting democracies and the rule of law in international treaty, in the world. Obviously these are things, the US historically supported under Republican and Democrat leadership, though Republicans are not what they used to be.

 

[Scoutster]

Ukraine can’t win, because no western country is gonna put their troops to fight Russian head-to-head and risk World War III. It gets even worse when we have pulled out, they’re gonna have to sacrifice their social programs in Europe to fund the war. The liberal/nut jobs/ I’m owed will riot in the streets before they let their money go to fighting Russians in Ukraine vs paying their expected freebies. Do you not get it?

 

[Couchpotato]

I am disagreeing with the folks that say, Ukraine cannot defend against Russia, if that is what they continue to want to do, and they continue to get the weapons and material support, either from US and EU or just the EU, for that matter, if the US decides it really is time to give up supporting democracies and the rule of law in international treaty, in the world. Obviously these are things, the US historically supported under Republican and Democrat leadership, though Republicans are not what they used to be.

Ukraine is free to do whatever they want. No one is telling them they cant. Just that they will have to do it on their dime. Or at least not on the US tax payer dime. If Congress wants to keep funding this war then pass a Ukraine war tax. All the proceeds from that tax can go to fight the war in Ukraine.

 

[Lesh]

Ok, I've been discussing the issue of the war in Ukraine and our American policy on it, with libs on this site, quite a bit. It has been very difficult as the pro-war supporters have been very resistant to engaging honestly on the issue and sharing with us their reasons and goals on the war.

But, after several weeks of this and with extensive grilling of them, I think I have found the crux of the difference between the pro-war and the pro-peace factions.

The fundemental question is, do we believe that Ukraine has the ability to win.

Trump, from his words, clearly does not think so. I have to agree, ukraine just looks too small next to Russia to have the ability to win. IMO, the best they can hope for is to bog the war down enough to survive.


The lefties, are constantly pushing a hardline on their ukraine policy, wanting all russian forces out of ukraine, before even beginning negotiations, and often dropping bits about reparations or removing putin from power, which are evne more unlikely.

This seems to be based on an assumption that ukraine has the ability to do that.


If this is the crux of the matter, if this is the real difference, then all the shit talk of "nazis" and "putin lovers" is revealed to be insanely stupid, and the real issue is a valid and understandable difference of opinion on the capabilities of the ukrainian military.


On the other hand, I have gotten a lot of.... focus on the BLEEDING OF RUSSIA, aspect of the current stalemate, and I do worry that for at least some of the supporters of the war, that they might not think that ukraine can win, but they are happy to see them try, just for the damage they can inflict on Russia in the process, even if in the end, it leads to nothing of value, such as a free and independent ukraine.

It occurrs to me that once the basis of the difference of policy is found like this, that we now can measure who is right and who is wrong, moving forward,


If by the midterms, the situation the conflict, shows that Trump was WRONG, and that Ukraine is doing fine without us support, and russia is losing ground and looking to lose more as time goes on, that will be a policy failure for Trump and maga. And we should admit that, and try to learn from it.

On the other hand, if the situation is not that, but ukaine is still losing ground and many people had died and nothing was won, and there is not indication that anything will be won in the foreseeable future, then that would be a policy failure for the dems and leftieas and they should admit that and try to learn from it.



Link dems hopefully of ukrainian ability.

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/24/biden-ukraine-russia-war-aid-00154143

edit: WIN, is defined as inflicting enough causualties and economic cost that Russia is forced to withdraw their forces.

If Vietnam could drive the US out… Ukraine can drive Russia out.

They didn’t do it alone.

Russia and China supplied the weapons

We and the Eu can do so as well for Ukraine

 

[scruffy]

If Vietnam could drive the US out… Ukraine can drive Russia out.

They didn’t do it alone.

Russia and China supplied the weapons

We and the Eu can do so as well for Ukraine

Are you shittin me?

You want another Vietnam?

No thanks.

 

[Lesh]

Are you shittin me?

You want another Vietnam?

No thanks.

Want another Vietnam?

It’s not up to me jackass.

My point was that Ukraine has a better chance of driving Ukraine out than Vietnam had of driving us out.

Those who claim that Russia is a certain winner aren’t looking at history

 

[Hellokitty]

By next month, they will be ahead of US contribution. Last I saw, it was US $128 Billion, EU $124 Billion.

If Ukraine wish to fight for their right to exist with their sovereign territory, it is fine by me. The Russian have twice the Ukrainian losses.

View attachment 1085913

You do realize the EU is scrambling trying to figure out how to fund their own defense now that TRUMP has closed the checkbook.

 

[Lesh]

You do realize the EU is scrambling trying to figure out how to fund their own defense now that TRUMP has closed the checkbook.

Actually I don’t realize that at all.

Where’d you get that?

 

[scruffy]

My point was that Ukraine has a better chance of driving Ukraine out than Vietnam had of driving us out.

lol

Freudian slip.

 

[Couchpotato]

Want another Vietnam?

It’s not up to me jackass.

My point was that Ukraine has a better chance of driving Ukraine out than Vietnam had of driving us out.

Those who claim that Russia is a certain winner aren’t looking at history

Different war. The Vietcong didn't fight a conventional war like the Ukrainians are.

For every little guy who beat a big guy in wars I can list 20 that lost, and lost huge....

 

[Hellokitty]

Actually I don’t realize that at all.

Where’d you get that?

European leaders brace for their ‘5-minutes-to-midnight’ nightmare summit

Diplomats are already worried pro-Russian EU governments could derail the attempt to regain the initiative from Trump ― and save Ukraine.

www.politico.eu

 

[White 6]

Ukraine is free to do whatever they want. No one is telling them they cant. Just that they will have to do it on their dime. Or at least not on the US tax payer dime. If Congress wants to keep funding this war then pass a Ukraine war tax. All the proceeds from that tax can go to fight the war in Ukraine.

All true, but my preference is we continue to be in a good guy leadership position in the world, and not aligned with Russia, China, North Korea, or any of the despot or communist countries. I just cannot support, that which I knowingly and righteously trained to fight against. If that is what you wish to support, that's on you. Though, I don't think much of your knowledge, judgment, or decision-making. Makes you sound like one of the blind (anything trump says) trumpers or someone unfamiliar with the history of those countries or the world.

 

[White 6]

You do realize the EU is scrambling trying to figure out how to fund their own defense now that TRUMP has closed the checkbook.

As well, they should. Who knew Trump would be the first American President to turn his back on the free world, all our historic alliances, and relinquish our leadership role, by turning to the dark side, the only side that will have him?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

As well, they should. Who knew Trump would be the first American President to turn his back on the free world, all our historic alliances, and relinquish our leadership role, by turning to the dark side, the only side that will have him?

Trump would also be the first American President to have to deal with that little sniveling shit from Kiev stabbing him in the back on agreed provisions for working towards a peaceful settlement. Did you forget that?

Hey, the general's coffee is getting cold. You better top that off, Sarge!

 

[White 6]

Trump would also be the first American President to have to deal with that little sniveling shit from Kiev stabbing him in the back on agreed provisions for working towards a peaceful settlement. Did you forget that?

Hey, the general's coffee is getting cold. You better top that off, Sarge!

Not my job. Back when I was a Sergeant, I was never around Generals, all that time while you were swabbing the decks, Seaman. Or were you just semen?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Not my job. Back when I was a Sergeant, I was never around Generals, all that time while you were swabbing the decks, Seaman. Or were you just semen?

Nah, I was too busy making the missiles fly or making those things at the back go roundy-roundy and push us through the water.

 

[White 6]

Nah, I was too busy making the missiles fly or making those things at the back go roundy-roundy and push us through the water.

"making those things at the back go roundy-roundy" I guess you were semen.
Meanwhile, your boy is siding with Russia, China, and North Korea, to turn Ukraine over to the Russians.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

"making those things at the back go roundy-roundy" I guess you were semen.
Meanwhile, your boy is siding with Russia, China, and North Korea, to turn Ukraine over to the Russians.

You never heard of a propellor?

As is normal, your assessment is clouded by your TDS. He's making peace the only way it can be done. Seek treatment!

 

[White 6]

You never heard of a propellor?

As is normal, your assessment is clouded by your TDS. He's making peace the only way it can be done. Seek treatment!

I thought you had not heard of a propeller, instead just "things at the back go roundy-roundy", your words not mine.

Easy to make piece if you can step in and force the smaller country to give the invading Russians what they want, especially if you thought the invasion was "brilliant" move on Russia's part, from the beginning. Everybody always knew Rump was a Putin-Puffer.