Ok, I've been discussing the issue of the war in Ukraine and our American policy on it, with libs on this site, quite a bit. It has been very difficult as the pro-war supporters have been very resistant to engaging honestly on the issue and sharing with us their reasons and goals on the war.
But, after several weeks of this and with extensive grilling of them, I think I have found the crux of the difference between the pro-war and the pro-peace factions.
The fundemental question is, do we believe that Ukraine has the ability to win.
Trump, from his words, clearly does not think so. I have to agree, ukraine just looks too small next to Russia to have the ability to win. IMO, the best they can hope for is to bog the war down enough to survive.
The lefties, are constantly pushing a hardline on their ukraine policy, wanting all russian forces out of ukraine, before even beginning negotiations, and often dropping bits about reparations or removing putin from power, which are evne more unlikely.
This seems to be based on an assumption that ukraine has the ability to do that.
If this is the crux of the matter, if this is the real difference, then all the shit talk of "nazis" and "putin lovers" is revealed to be insanely stupid, and the real issue is a valid and understandable difference of opinion on the capabilities of the ukrainian military.
On the other hand, I have gotten a lot of.... focus on the BLEEDING OF RUSSIA, aspect of the current stalemate, and I do worry that for at least some of the supporters of the war, that they might not think that ukraine can win, but they are happy to see them try, just for the damage they can inflict on Russia in the process, even if in the end, it leads to nothing of value, such as a free and independent ukraine.
It occurrs to me that once the basis of the difference of policy is found like this, that we now can measure who is right and who is wrong, moving forward,
If by the midterms, the situation the conflict, shows that Trump was WRONG, and that Ukraine is doing fine without us support, and russia is losing ground and looking to lose more as time goes on, that will be a policy failure for Trump and maga. And we should admit that, and try to learn from it.
On the other hand, if the situation is not that, but ukaine is still losing ground and many people had died and nothing was won, and there is not indication that anything will be won in the foreseeable future, then that would be a policy failure for the dems and leftieas and they should admit that and try to learn from it.
Link dems hopefully of ukrainian ability.
edit: WIN, is defined as inflicting enough causualties and economic cost that Russia is forced to withdraw their forces.
But, after several weeks of this and with extensive grilling of them, I think I have found the crux of the difference between the pro-war and the pro-peace factions.
The fundemental question is, do we believe that Ukraine has the ability to win.
Trump, from his words, clearly does not think so. I have to agree, ukraine just looks too small next to Russia to have the ability to win. IMO, the best they can hope for is to bog the war down enough to survive.
The lefties, are constantly pushing a hardline on their ukraine policy, wanting all russian forces out of ukraine, before even beginning negotiations, and often dropping bits about reparations or removing putin from power, which are evne more unlikely.
This seems to be based on an assumption that ukraine has the ability to do that.
If this is the crux of the matter, if this is the real difference, then all the shit talk of "nazis" and "putin lovers" is revealed to be insanely stupid, and the real issue is a valid and understandable difference of opinion on the capabilities of the ukrainian military.
On the other hand, I have gotten a lot of.... focus on the BLEEDING OF RUSSIA, aspect of the current stalemate, and I do worry that for at least some of the supporters of the war, that they might not think that ukraine can win, but they are happy to see them try, just for the damage they can inflict on Russia in the process, even if in the end, it leads to nothing of value, such as a free and independent ukraine.
It occurrs to me that once the basis of the difference of policy is found like this, that we now can measure who is right and who is wrong, moving forward,
If by the midterms, the situation the conflict, shows that Trump was WRONG, and that Ukraine is doing fine without us support, and russia is losing ground and looking to lose more as time goes on, that will be a policy failure for Trump and maga. And we should admit that, and try to learn from it.
On the other hand, if the situation is not that, but ukaine is still losing ground and many people had died and nothing was won, and there is not indication that anything will be won in the foreseeable future, then that would be a policy failure for the dems and leftieas and they should admit that and try to learn from it.
Link dems hopefully of ukrainian ability.
edit: WIN, is defined as inflicting enough causualties and economic cost that Russia is forced to withdraw their forces.
Last edited:
