The Confederacy and States' Rights

[rdean]

The Confederacy and States' Rights

Oops, I thought it was about the Republican Party.

 

[Charles Stucker]

What difference does it make if the Confederacy had the right to secede? They, like Cuba, were granted peaceful succession from the US. Since they attacked Sumter, they experienced a response the same as Castro would receive if he were foolish enough to attack Guantanamo.

First - old thread.
Second- Bullshit.
Lincoln had Absolutely NO Intention of allowing the Southern states to secede. Fort Sumter was a convenient excuse, but rest assured that Lincoln was quite clear in his determination to prevent secession. Misinformed jackasses like you are the reason socialism advances today.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Conclusion does not follow from the premise, Charles Stucker. That is one of the more ignorant comments this month on the forum.

 

[Equat]

Do you disagree with the timeline of sucession at wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Sumter ?

 

[JakeStarkey]

The word is spelled "secession". Equat, KK is often wrong, for instance, most in the North thought secession was lawful. However, KK is spot on that Lincoln set up the South by forcing it to fire on the national flag, which infuriated the northern Democrats and brought the North down upon the South.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Do you disagree with the timeline of sucession at wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Sumter ?

Not in the least.
But even without Fort Sumter, Lincoln was seeking ANY excuse to attack the secessionist states.
Do you recall that Lincoln NEVER even while blockading Southern ports, recognized they had seceded?
A nation does not blockade their own ports, which is the fiction Lincoln maintained about Confederate ports. A nation announces their own ports are closed.

Do you understand now? Read a book on Lincoln and the Civil war, trying to cover the ground here would take longer than this forum supports.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Lincoln made it clear in his inaugural address that he was going to invade the south if they refused to pay their taxes and tariffs to the federal government, and he forced the south's hand because he did not have northern sentiment on his side until Fort Sumter.

 

[Equat]

The word is spelled "secession". Equat, KK is often wrong, for instance, most in the North thought secession was lawful. However, KK is spot on that Lincoln set up the South by forcing it to fire on the national flag, which infuriated the northern Democrats and brought the North down upon the South.

Thanks for the grammar correction. Regardless of Lincoln's alleged intentions, aren't war's fought based on who fire's first (e.g. the Japs in WWII)? Don't the vicotors have the priviledge of writing history and having the final say? Do we grant the Japs the right to blame the US for WWII since the US cut off Jap oil supply for refusing to leave China? Japs lost the right to write history like the Germans lost the right to blame the Russians for killing more Jews than the Germans in WWII because they lost. Do we grant the loosers of all our conflicts the final say in History? If not, then isn't it hypocritical to grant the Confederacy such a right? Note: The Japs & Germans don't dispute the US's right to occupy them and have the last word in history? They respect and love us and we them. They understand "Christian" forgiveness by practicing Christianity more than those who merely profess the religion.

 

[Equat]

Lincoln made it clear in his inaugural address that he was going to invade the south if they refused to pay their taxes and tariffs to the federal government, and he forced the south's hand because he did not have northern sentiment on his side until Fort Sumter.

Where did Lincoln state such as you claim? I read his address at showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/1inaug.htm.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Apples and Oranges, and for all of that, unimportant.

The South probably had the right to secede, yet still made the wrong choice because Lincoln maneuvered them into starting the war, and the North spanked and cranked and tanked and wanked the Southern booty awfully, terribly, brutally hard.

And the South deserved what it got.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Lincoln made it clear in his inaugural address that he was going to invade the south if they refused to pay their taxes and tariffs to the federal government, and he forced the south's hand because he did not have northern sentiment on his side until Fort Sumter.

Where did Lincoln state such as you claim? I read his address at showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/1inaug.htm.

"In doing this there needs to be no bloodshed or violence, and there shall be none unless it be forced upon the national authority. The power confided to me will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion, no using of force against or among the people anywhere."

Abraham Lincoln: First Inaugural Address. U.S. Inaugural Addresses. 1989

 

[Equat]

Apples and Oranges, and for all of that, unimportant.

The South probably had the right to secede, yet still made the wrong choice because Lincoln maneuvered them into starting the war, and the North spanked and cranked and tanked and wanked the Southern booty awfully, terribly, brutally hard.

And the South deserved what it got.

The US handed over all except 4 military installations to the South prior to Sumter. This dispells the myth that the US was unwilling to allow the Confederacy to secede.

My reasoning for mentioning Christianity is because Lee claimed that the Confederacy was Christian.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Actually only two federal military installations located in the South remained in the North's hands by the time Lincoln came to office. He had three goals: (1) to preserve the Union; (2) to protect federal property in the South; and (3) to ensure that the South would respect and follow (at the point of a sword if necessary) due constitutional process, i.e., the Republicans won the election and Lincoln was president.

Lincoln had absolutely no intention of letting Buchanan's lack of action be the guide for his presidency.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Lincoln made it clear in his inaugural address that he was going to invade the south if they refused to pay their taxes and tariffs to the federal government, and he forced the south's hand because he did not have northern sentiment on his side until Fort Sumter.

Where did Lincoln state such as you claim? I read his address at showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/1inaug.htm.

"In doing this there needs to be no bloodshed or violence, and there shall be none unless it be forced upon the national authority. The power confided to me will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion, no using of force against or among the people anywhere."

Abraham Lincoln: First Inaugural Address. U.S. Inaugural Addresses. 1989

Lincoln made it even more clear that he WOULD NOT allow states to secede
from the same address

I hold that in contemplation of universal law and of the Constitution the Union of these States is perpetual. Perpetuity is implied, if not expressed, in the fundamental law of all national governments. It is safe to assert that no government proper ever had a provision in its organic law for its own termination. Continue to execute all the express provisions of our National Constitution, and the Union will endure forever, it being impossible to destroy it except by some action not provided for in the instrument itself. 12
Again: If the United States be not a government proper, but an association of States in the nature of contract merely, can it, as a contract, be peaceably unmade by less than all the parties who made it? One party to a contract may violate it—break it, so to speak—but does it not require all to lawfully rescind it?

That"all" in to lawfully rescind it is the same as saying "Unless the tyranny of the masses agrees to release some states from perpetual servitude, the states cannot legally secede"
and of course since his oath includes the Requirement to enforce the law, he gets to use whatever force is needed to arrest the lawbreakers.
Except of course the minor fact that using the army for enforcing the law is illegal and unconstitutional.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Where did Lincoln state such as you claim? I read his address at showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/1inaug.htm.

"In doing this there needs to be no bloodshed or violence, and there shall be none unless it be forced upon the national authority. The power confided to me will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion, no using of force against or among the people anywhere."

Abraham Lincoln: First Inaugural Address. U.S. Inaugural Addresses. 1989

Lincoln made it even more clear that he WOULD NOT allow states to secede
from the same address

I hold that in contemplation of universal law and of the Constitution the Union of these States is perpetual. Perpetuity is implied, if not expressed, in the fundamental law of all national governments. It is safe to assert that no government proper ever had a provision in its organic law for its own termination. Continue to execute all the express provisions of our National Constitution, and the Union will endure forever, it being impossible to destroy it except by some action not provided for in the instrument itself. 12
Again: If the United States be not a government proper, but an association of States in the nature of contract merely, can it, as a contract, be peaceably unmade by less than all the parties who made it? One party to a contract may violate it—break it, so to speak—but does it not require all to lawfully rescind it?

That"all" in to lawfully rescind it is the same as saying "Unless the tyranny of the masses agrees to release some states from perpetual servitude, the states cannot legally secede"
and of course since his oath includes the Requirement to enforce the law, he gets to use whatever force is needed to arrest the lawbreakers.
Except of course the minor fact that using the army for enforcing the law is illegal and unconstitutional.

Not to mention Lincoln's revisionist history. It was not a majority that ratified the Constitution and then it applied to everyone, but every state individually ratified it. Meaning that any state could individually choose to leave the compact just as freely as they entered.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The states were merely the agents of the Will of the People, which formed an indivisible union. That is what Jackson, Houston, Lincoln, Webster, Clay, and millions of other Americans believed. And they enforced it to the South's gasping and agonizing dismay.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The states were merely the agents of the Will of the People, which formed an indivisible union. That is what Jackson, Houston, Lincoln, Webster, Clay, and millions of other Americans believed. And they enforced it to the South's gasping and agonizing dismay.

And the people of the south spoke when they voted to disassociate themselves with the Union to create their own.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Only Texas permitted its citizens to vote on the secession ordinance. It would have taken an amendatory supermajority to dissolve the Union, and the South by itself could not do it.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Only Texas permitted its citizens to vote on the secession ordinance.

I'm sorry didn't you just say the states were the agents of the will of the people? If they didn't want to secede then secession wouldn't have happened. Look at West Virginia for example.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Only Texas permitted its citizens to vote on the secession ordinance.

I'm sorry didn't you just say the states were the agents of the will of the people? If they didn't want to secede then secession wouldn't have happened. Look at West Virginia for example.

You lost learn to live with it.