The China US conflict

[Unkotare]

Perhaps you should try the same with American history.

I have. YOU obviously don't know much of Chinese history if you think there is any comparison. Is everything you ever say just some version of your anti-American bullshit? There's nothing else in that rotten melon of yours?

Since the Chinese communist party was really nothing until post WWII, we can't really look at much history until '45.

Oh? China didn't exist until the communists took over?

 

[Unkotare]

a brief look at history since 1945 shows America has a far worse record than China....

No we don't.

 

[Indofred]

After the last few of centuries of English/UK world wide enslavement and brutal colonialism of indigenous people in India, Africa, and Asia.

I don't think you should be pointing a finger at someone else.........

Please quote the post where I've defended English (and the other, less important, bits of the UK) colonialism.
However wrong the act of colonising a country may be, unlike the American version, we built social structures, communication systems and so on.
Every country the UK took over (and kept the English system after independence) has done far better than it would otherwise have done, India and Malaysia come to mind.
Every country America has attacked or invaded has been destroyed or seriously damaged.
It was wrong to do what the English of the time did but these countries have done rather well from it in the long term.
Perhaps you can name a country America has left in a better condition after invasion than it was before.

Two of the most powerful countries the US ever invaded, Germany and Japan made remarkable comebacks fostered by the US. Both are more affluent and stable than ever before.

America was a tad late for the European war, a common trait.
However, the invasion of Germany was a joint venture, not American.

 

[Peterf]

Quotation from 1972:

"Well you can just stop and think of what could happen if anybody with a decent system of government got control of the (Chinese) mainland. Good God .... There'd be no power in the world that could even - I, mean, you put 800 hundred million Chinese to work under a decent system .... and they will be the leaders of the world" Richard Nixon

Now 41 years later there are 1361 million Chinese and they have something approaching a 'decent' government, or, at least one that is effective.

Imo and, I expect, in the eyes of history Nixon was, in foreign policy terms, one of the greatest US presidents. His opening of relations with China weakened the Soviet Union, which had at the time over a million troops along the Chinese border. Nixon laid the foundations for victory in the Cold War

 

[Vikrant]

Quotation from 1972:

"Well you can just stop and think of what could happen if anybody with a decent system of government got control of the (Chinese) mainland. Good God .... There'd be no power in the world that could even - I, mean, you put 800 hundred million Chinese to work under a decent system .... and they will be the leaders of the world" Richard Nixon

Now 41 years later there are 1361 million Chinese and they have something approaching a 'decent' government, or, at least one that is effective.

Imo and, I expect, in the eyes of history Nixon was, in foreign policy terms, one of the greatest US presidents. His opening of relations with China weakened the Soviet Union, which had at the time over a million troops along the Chinese border. Nixon laid the foundations for victory in the Cold War

... and he laid the foundation for another cold war by propping up China.

 

[Indofred]

I have. YOU obviously don't know much of Chinese history if you think there is any comparison. Is everything you ever say just some version of your anti-American bullshit? There's nothing else in that rotten melon of yours?

Since the Chinese communist party was really nothing until post WWII, we can't really look at much history until '45.

Oh? China didn't exist until the communists took over?

It did but was not controlled by the communists.
Their political system and official policies changed totally.

 

[Indofred]

a brief look at history since 1945 shows America has a far worse record than China....

No we don't.

How about using American military to kill American civilians?

 

[Peterf]

Quotation from 1972:

"Well you can just stop and think of what could happen if anybody with a decent system of government got control of the (Chinese) mainland. Good God .... There'd be no power in the world that could even - I, mean, you put 800 hundred million Chinese to work under a decent system .... and they will be the leaders of the world" Richard Nixon

Now 41 years later there are 1361 million Chinese and they have something approaching a 'decent' government, or, at least one that is effective.

Imo and, I expect, in the eyes of history Nixon was, in foreign policy terms, one of the greatest US presidents. His opening of relations with China weakened the Soviet Union, which had at the time over a million troops along the Chinese border. Nixon laid the foundations for victory in the Cold War

... and he laid the foundation for another cold war by propping up China.

I don't think there has been a cold war between the US and China , do you?

 

[Unkotare]

Since the Chinese communist party was really nothing until post WWII, we can't really look at much history until '45.

Oh? China didn't exist until the communists took over?

It did but was not controlled by the communists.
Their political system and official policies changed totally.

Oh, so should we only 'count' Chinese history after Mao died? After Deng took power? Post 1989? Just how mobile are your goalposts?

 

[Unkotare]

Quotation from 1972:

"Well you can just stop and think of what could happen if anybody with a decent system of government got control of the (Chinese) mainland. Good God .... There'd be no power in the world that could even - I, mean, you put 800 hundred million Chinese to work under a decent system .... and they will be the leaders of the world" Richard Nixon

Now 41 years later there are 1361 million Chinese and they have something approaching a 'decent' government, or, at least one that is effective.

Imo and, I expect, in the eyes of history Nixon was, in foreign policy terms, one of the greatest US presidents. His opening of relations with China weakened the Soviet Union, which had at the time over a million troops along the Chinese border. Nixon laid the foundations for victory in the Cold War

... and he laid the foundation for another cold war by propping up China.

I don't think there has been a cold war between the US and China , do you?

You could argue that there has been one in the Korean Peninsula for decades.

 

[Unkotare]

a brief look at history since 1945 shows America has a far worse record than China....

No we don't.

How about using American military to kill American civilians?

Compared to China? Don't be absurd.

 

[Whereisup]

A couple of years ago, the Chinese government said that it could now easily do without the American market, and I think the Chinese government was right.

They were bluffing and you are ignorant and gullible.

You are hoping that the Chinese government was bluffing, but this is such a serious situation that you need to be sure.

I will say that logically, China could easily replace the American market with their internal market. Remember that the Chinese government can do things in the economy that the American government isn't allowed to do.

Don't take that wrong, I don't think the American government should have as much internal power as the Chinese government. I am only talking about facts on the ground. Then, it is my responsibility to try to think up ways that the United States could still be OK, even keeping a government with less power.

Interestingly, for years, China encouraged her citizens to avoid buying products and services and save, which the Chinese public did. Now, the Chinese government has a major campaign going to get the Chinese public to buy more products and services, and to not save as much.

OK: given that China could switch over to an internal market, why do you think the Chinese government was bluffing.

Jim

 

[Whereisup]

No we don't.

How about using American military to kill American civilians?

Compared to China? Don't be absurd.

You are right, but you also could quote figures on the many millions of Chinese who were killed after the Chinese Communist Party took power.

Of course, the past is past. The important thing now is to solve the problems of the future.

Jim

 

[Unkotare]

I will say that logically, China could easily replace the American market with their internal market.

No they can't. Not even close. Not for a decade at least.

 

[Unkotare]

Then, it is my responsibility to try to think up ways that the United States could still be OK, even keeping a government with less power.

Your responsibility? Who asked you, kid? Your only responsibility now is to complete your education so you don't make such a fool of yourself again in the future.

 

[Indofred]

Oh? China didn't exist until the communists took over?

It did but was not controlled by the communists.
Their political system and official policies changed totally.

Oh, so should we only 'count' Chinese history after Mao died? After Deng took power? Post 1989? Just how mobile are your goalposts?

I tend to start with Mao.
Pre Mao, their system was entirely different.
To consider imperialist china would be very much like taking examples from king George's America and saying modern America is guilty of any offences of that time.

I believe you're being silly because you know you can't win the argument.
America has far more blood guilt than China as far as expansionist policy and starting wars is concerned.

Prove me wrong by posting a list of wars started by China and compare that to the list I posted for America.
If the list is longer, and the numbers dead, greater, I'll be happy to admit defeat on this point.

 

[Unkotare]

Prove me wrong by posting a list of wars started by China and compare that to the list I posted for America.
If the list is longer, and the numbers dead, greater, I'll be happy to admit defeat on this point.

Your initial claim was about "expansion," in which case the claim is false. Trying to shift the focus to "started by" opens the door to the question as to who "started" what and even what constitutes "started" in the first place which, given your abiding anti-Americanism, will undoubtedly be naught but fruitless disputation.

 

[Vikrant]

Us wars starting with World War II:

World War II was started by Hitler
Korean war was started by Chinese and their Korean supporters who came to be known as N Koreans
Vietnam war was an unnecessary mess
Gulf War I was started by Saddam
Gulf War II was an unnecessary mess
Afghanistan war started by Al Queda attacking the US

 

[Vikrant]

Chinese Wars:

- China invaded and occupied Tibet for no reason. In the process killed well over million Tibetans
- China attacked India in 1962 unprovoked. Then China attacked India again in 1967
- China attacked Soviet Union. Both fought tank battles
- China captured some Spratley islands from Vietnam when Vietnam was busy fighting the US
- China attacked Vietnam unprovoked which resulted in full scale war with Vietnam and bloody nose for PLA

 

[Vikrant]

Quotation from 1972:

"Well you can just stop and think of what could happen if anybody with a decent system of government got control of the (Chinese) mainland. Good God .... There'd be no power in the world that could even - I, mean, you put 800 hundred million Chinese to work under a decent system .... and they will be the leaders of the world" Richard Nixon

Now 41 years later there are 1361 million Chinese and they have something approaching a 'decent' government, or, at least one that is effective.

Imo and, I expect, in the eyes of history Nixon was, in foreign policy terms, one of the greatest US presidents. His opening of relations with China weakened the Soviet Union, which had at the time over a million troops along the Chinese border. Nixon laid the foundations for victory in the Cold War

... and he laid the foundation for another cold war by propping up China.

I don't think there has been a cold war between the US and China , do you?

What do you think will happen as China gets stronger and stronger? Propping up China was a big blunder.