The China US conflict

Whereisup

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We need ideas on how China and the United States could live together because a war between China and the United States could end many future hopes for everyone.

On the Jade Rabbit moon rover, a few years ago, on another message board, an officer in Chinese intelligence said that China intends to establish a military base on the Moon. The rover is looking for minerals, so evidently is a first step in developing a Chinese claim to the Moon. China has been especially interested in minerals, and over the past few years has tied up much mineral production throughout the world with multi-decade contracts. In terms of possible long term goals, in the last year, China has been moving to deny rare earth metals to non-Chinese corporations, a gradual step at a time. Also, China is trying to take over all economic sectors of the world. It looks like China wants to destroy many American corporations in financial ways, leaving China as the only superpower in the world.

It would cost the equivalent of an America trillion dollars per year (Chinese prices are different) for a decade or so for China to establish a large military base and some mining operations on the Moon. China could do that if she is motivated enough.

An interesting book has recently come out. It is a novel by a Chinese author, but the blurbs are by several China experts who are saying the book gives an accurate picture of current Chinese thinking and goals. According to the book, China now confidently thinks that the 21st century is the Chinese century, and soon, China will be the leader of the world.

The book is, Chan Koonchung, translated by Michael S. Drake, THE FAT YEARS, 2011, first published by Oxford University Press (really impressive), republished by Doubleday.

This is certainly the most important book of the decade that I know of.

In terms of possible solution ideas, we might ask how China and the US, and other nations, working together, could produce better results for future humanity than a world in which China had a world despotism.

Jim
 
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Indofred

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One has to ask, do you read history?

Take a look at how many wars China has started since 1945 and compare that to the list of wars started by America in the same period.
Then look at the spread of Chinese military bases outside China and compare that to the spread of American military bases outside America.

When you've done that, ask who the aggressor is.
 
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One has to ask, do you read history

Take a look at how many wars China has started since 1945 and compare that to the list of wars started by America in the same period.
Then look at the spread of Chinese military bases outside China and compare that to the spread of American military bases outside America.

When you've done that, ask who the aggressor is.
Given that it is only during the last few years that China's economy and military forces have become strong enough for China to assert herself, your point isn't relevant because it relies on data before China became strong.

As far as I know, every nation in history which has become strong enough has become aggressive. It's a problem with basic human nature.

What we need to do is, for the first time in history, is find a way to derail the aggressiveness of all powerful nations.

Jim
 
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Indofred

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China trades its way through the world; America invades.
This whole thing is down to American arms manufacturers trying to create a new cold war in order to increase arms sales.
Japan has just made a large order for aircraft and other military hardware, all from America.

You're being conned again.
 
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China trades its way through the world; America invades.
This whole thing is down to American arms manufacturers trying to create a new cold war in order to increase arms sales.
Japan has just made a large order for aircraft and other military hardware, all from America.

You're being conned again.
Of course, somebody is being conned. Even more, weapons manufacturers push for the production of as many high tech weapons, smart bombs, drones, etc. as possible, but those are so expensive that the military can order only a modest number of them. One thing I have noticed the last couple of decades is that the United States will attack, and then the stockpiles of high tech weapons are exhausted. Then, the US pulls back until the stockpiles are built up again. The United States then attacks elsewhere and uses up all the high tech weapons again. Then, it pauses again until stockpiles are again built up, and so forth. In a war with the China alliance, which includes a number of other nations, we would quickly run out of high tech weapons, and have to fall back on ordinary fighting with troops. But with a population four times as large as America's China alone could field far more troops, and then add Russia, China's allies in the Middle East, etc.

Everyone needs to notice China stories more carefully. For example, last year, the Chinese government said that it could quickly destroy all but one of US military bases near China. That wasn't just a trade comment. China very recently has been holding joint military exercises with India. Then, just recently, China told the world that certain air spaces extending some distance from China can only be entered with China's permission. The US sent military planes through, and tried to send a naval ship, but the Chinese put a Chinese naval ship close enough to collide, and the United States backed down.

Then, in things like the invasion of Tibet, China has used its military.

Remember that nations can get into a war by mistake. Remember that in World War one, neither side wanted a war, but then the Archduke was assassinated, and one thing led to another until they were in a war neither side had wanted. With America and China poking at one another, something similar could happen.

As I have noted, the only possible solution I see would be for China, the United States, and others, to enter into a partnership to create a civilization many times more advanced than the civilization we have now.

China would prefer an economic war, but would fight militarily.

Jim
 

Gracie

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Daddy was a very wise man when he was alive. He died when I was 17. It's been 44 years but I still remember like it was yesterday what he said:

"Everyone is so concerned about that country, this country, the other country but nobody is looking at the Chinese. They are the ones that will spell our doom".

I think Dad was right.
 
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Indofred

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China, a country that has invaded one other country since WWII, and spends five times less on its military than America, a country that has invaded lots of other countries and has a massive attack budget as well as military bases all over the world, none of which are there to defend America.

The aggressor is clear, except to those that don't want to see.
 

Meathead

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China, a country that has invaded one other country since WWII, and spends five times less on its military than America, a country that has invaded lots of other countries and has a massive attack budget as well as military bases all over the world, none of which are there to defend America.

The aggressor is clear, except to those that don't want to see.
China incorporated Tibet in 1950 whose people never wished to be part of China. As you say, aggression is clear.

OP's bit about the moon is a bit of a stretch. China has a nascent space program which is ridiculously far from any kind of lunar exploitation. The strategic challenges China is likely to present in the future is far more local, specifically the East Pacific which is quickly coalescing around the US.
 
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Indofred

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China, a country that has invaded one other country since WWII, and spends five times less on its military than America, a country that has invaded lots of other countries and has a massive attack budget as well as military bases all over the world, none of which are there to defend America.

The aggressor is clear, except to those that don't want to see.
China incorporated Tibet in 1950 whose people never wished to be part of China. As you say, aggression is clear..
PUERTO RICO 1950 Command operation Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.
KOREA 1951-53 (-?) Troops, naval, bombing , nuclear threats U.S./So. Korea fights China/No. Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, and against China in 1953. Still have bases.
IRAN 1953 Command Operation CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.
GUATEMALA 1954 Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalized U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.
VIETNAM l960-75 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.
CUBA l961 Command operation CIA-directed exile invasion fails.
IRAQ 1963 Command operation CIA organizes coup that killed president, brings Ba'ath Party to power, and Saddam Hussein back from exile to be head of the secret service.
INDONESIA l965 Command operation Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66 Troops, bombing Army & Marines land during election campaign.
DETROIT l967 Troops Army battles African Americans, 43 killed.
(Sorry, I shouldn't have put that one in because your army was only killing Americans, not foreigners)
CAMBODIA l969-75 Bombing, troops, naval Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
OMAN l970 Command operation U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
LAOS l971-73 Command operation, bombing U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.
CHILE 1973 Command operation CIA-backed coup ousts elected marxist president.
NICARAGUA l981-90 Command operation, naval CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.
LEBANON l982-84 Naval, bombing, troops Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions. 241 Marines killed when Shi'a rebel bombs barracks.
GRENADA l983-84 Troops, bombing Invasion four years after revolution.
IRAN l987-88 Naval, bombing US intervenes on side of Iraq in war, defending reflagged tankers and shooting down civilian jet.
PHILIPPINES 1989 Jets Air cover provided for government against coup.
PANAMA 1989 (-?) Troops, bombing Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.
HAITI 1994 Troops, naval Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.
SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant.
AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.
(What, 9/11 was the reason to attack Afghanistan?)
IRAQ 1998 Bombing, Missiles Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.
AFGHANISTAN 2001-? Troops, bombing, missiles Massive U.S. mobilization to overthrow Taliban, hunt Al Qaeda fighters, install Karzai regime, and battle Taliban insurgency. More than 30,000 U.S. troops and numerous private security contractors carry our occupation.
YEMEN 2002 Missiles Predator drone missile attack on Al Qaeda, including a US citizen.
COLOMBIA 2003-? Troops US special forces sent to rebel zone to back up Colombian military protecting oil pipeline.
IRAQ 2003-? Troops, naval, bombing, missiles Saddam regime toppled in Baghdad. More than 250,000 U.S. personnel participate in invasion. US and UK forces occupy country and battle Sunni and Shi'ite insurgencies. More than 160,000 troops and numerous private contractors carry out occupation and build large permanent bases.
HAITI 2004-05 Troops, naval Marines & Army land after right-wing rebels oust elected President Aristide, who was advised to leave by Washington.
PAKISTAN 2005-? Missiles, bombing, covert operation CIA missile and air strikes and Special Forces raids on alleged Al Qaeda and Taliban refuge villages kill multiple civilians. Drone attacks also on Pakistani Mehsud network.
SOMALIA 2006-? Missiles, naval, troops, command operation Special Forces advise Ethiopian invasion that topples Islamist government; AC-130 strikes, Cruise missile attacks and helicopter raids against Islamist rebels; naval blockade against "pirates" and insurgents.
SYRIA 2008 Troops Special Forces in helicopter raid 5 miles from Iraq kill 8 Syrian civilians
YEMEN 2009-? Missiles, command operation Cruise missile attack on Al Qaeda kills 49 civilians; Yemeni military assaults on rebels

Yep, you're right - or not.
 

Meathead

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China, a country that has invaded one other country since WWII, and spends five times less on its military than America, a country that has invaded lots of other countries and has a massive attack budget as well as military bases all over the world, none of which are there to defend America.

The aggressor is clear, except to those that don't want to see.
China incorporated Tibet in 1950 whose people never wished to be part of China. As you say, aggression is clear..
PUERTO RICO 1950 Command operation Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.
KOREA 1951-53 (-?) Troops, naval, bombing , nuclear threats U.S./So. Korea fights China/No. Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, and against China in 1953. Still have bases.
IRAN 1953 Command Operation CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.
GUATEMALA 1954 Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalized U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.
VIETNAM l960-75 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.
CUBA l961 Command operation CIA-directed exile invasion fails.
IRAQ 1963 Command operation CIA organizes coup that killed president, brings Ba'ath Party to power, and Saddam Hussein back from exile to be head of the secret service.
INDONESIA l965 Command operation Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66 Troops, bombing Army & Marines land during election campaign.
DETROIT l967 Troops Army battles African Americans, 43 killed.
(Sorry, I shouldn't have put that one in because your army was only killing Americans, not foreigners)
CAMBODIA l969-75 Bombing, troops, naval Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
OMAN l970 Command operation U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
LAOS l971-73 Command operation, bombing U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.
CHILE 1973 Command operation CIA-backed coup ousts elected marxist president.
NICARAGUA l981-90 Command operation, naval CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.
LEBANON l982-84 Naval, bombing, troops Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions. 241 Marines killed when Shi'a rebel bombs barracks.
GRENADA l983-84 Troops, bombing Invasion four years after revolution.
IRAN l987-88 Naval, bombing US intervenes on side of Iraq in war, defending reflagged tankers and shooting down civilian jet.
PHILIPPINES 1989 Jets Air cover provided for government against coup.
PANAMA 1989 (-?) Troops, bombing Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.
HAITI 1994 Troops, naval Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.
SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant.
AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.
(What, 9/11 was the reason to attack Afghanistan?)
IRAQ 1998 Bombing, Missiles Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.
AFGHANISTAN 2001-? Troops, bombing, missiles Massive U.S. mobilization to overthrow Taliban, hunt Al Qaeda fighters, install Karzai regime, and battle Taliban insurgency. More than 30,000 U.S. troops and numerous private security contractors carry our occupation.
YEMEN 2002 Missiles Predator drone missile attack on Al Qaeda, including a US citizen.
COLOMBIA 2003-? Troops US special forces sent to rebel zone to back up Colombian military protecting oil pipeline.
IRAQ 2003-? Troops, naval, bombing, missiles Saddam regime toppled in Baghdad. More than 250,000 U.S. personnel participate in invasion. US and UK forces occupy country and battle Sunni and Shi'ite insurgencies. More than 160,000 troops and numerous private contractors carry out occupation and build large permanent bases.
HAITI 2004-05 Troops, naval Marines & Army land after right-wing rebels oust elected President Aristide, who was advised to leave by Washington.
PAKISTAN 2005-? Missiles, bombing, covert operation CIA missile and air strikes and Special Forces raids on alleged Al Qaeda and Taliban refuge villages kill multiple civilians. Drone attacks also on Pakistani Mehsud network.
SOMALIA 2006-? Missiles, naval, troops, command operation Special Forces advise Ethiopian invasion that topples Islamist government; AC-130 strikes, Cruise missile attacks and helicopter raids against Islamist rebels; naval blockade against "pirates" and insurgents.
SYRIA 2008 Troops Special Forces in helicopter raid 5 miles from Iraq kill 8 Syrian civilians
YEMEN 2009-? Missiles, command operation Cruise missile attack on Al Qaeda kills 49 civilians; Yemeni military assaults on rebels

Yep, you're right - or not.
The occupation and incorporation of Tibet would be tantamount to the US occupying and incorporating Canada. Did you know that an estimated 1 million Tibetans perished and 6000 monasteries were destroyed during the Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward?Millions more died in China proper through outright murder, famine and suicide. All this at the hands of self-righteous bastards of which I''m sure you would love to emulate.

Spare me that shit about the peace-loving Chinese and the war-mongering Americans.
 

Sunni Man

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The Chinese have always been a very racist and xenophobic people.

Who see themselves as a superior race with a superior culture.

In essence, the Chinese are the nazi fascists of the future.

And are hell bent on someday ruling the entire earth from their world capitol in Beijing. .... :cool:
 
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Whereisup

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This is more reflective of potential than actual capability at least at this point in time but nevertheless I could not find any thread more suitable than this to post this news.

Chinese media reports of plans to build a 110,000 ton 'super aircraft carrier' to rival US naval power | News.com.au
China was so recently a poor nation that I have trouble getting my head around the fact that China is now very capable. However, that is what the facts indicate. The partnership between China and the International corporations has produced a growth rate of the Chinese economy of almost ten percent per year for several decades, so now, China has the second largest economy in the world, after the United States, and should soon have the largest economy in the world. The United States was able to build air craft carriers when the American economy was substantially smaller than it is now, so China has the financial ability to build large aircraft carriers.

In a second area, a few years ago, China was graduating about six million students per year from her colleges and universities, substantially more college graduates per year than the United States. So China has no lack of expertise.

Jim
 
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Whereisup

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China, a country that has invaded one other country since WWII, and spends five times less on its military than America, a country that has invaded lots of other countries and has a massive attack budget as well as military bases all over the world, none of which are there to defend America.

The aggressor is clear, except to those that don't want to see.
China incorporated Tibet in 1950 whose people never wished to be part of China. As you say, aggression is clear.

OP's bit about the moon is a bit of a stretch. China has a nascent space program which is ridiculously far from any kind of lunar exploitation. The strategic challenges China is likely to present in the future is far more local, specifically the East Pacific which is quickly coalescing around the US.
There have been a number of small military actions by China. China has fought India on the border. China had a border military action against Vietnam after the Vietnamese war ended. China has been giving nuclear technology help to Iran. China has fought internal Muslims. China has fought in small ways with Taiwan. China has in the last couple of years claimed the South China sea areas which would belong to other nations if the sea was divided most equitably, including militarily seizing some of the small islands. Then there is the current military claims and positioning of China and the US near some Japanese islands further north.

Whether or not China moves to take over the moon is mainly a matter of whether or not China wants to spend the money. China has its own economy to draw upon, plus more than two trillion American dollars she holds, and other foreign holdings.

China is able to move very quickly in the technology area. Remember that even when China was poor, she developed nuclear weapons so quickly that many people were shocked. China has already put a person into an orbit around earth, which means that for all practical purposes, the technology is almost there. In addition, sending a heavy moon rover to the moon is another indication that Chinese space technology is now almost up to the level of American technology, or might perhaps even be equal to US space technology. One might note that when developing space technology, a lot of America's early rockets exploded. China hasn't had that problem of many failures.

Note also that costs are lower in China than in the United States, so the same amount of military spending produces much more than the U.S. can manage. So even though China's military budget is lower than the US, China still has a large army, etc.

Jim
 

Meathead

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China, a country that has invaded one other country since WWII, and spends five times less on its military than America, a country that has invaded lots of other countries and has a massive attack budget as well as military bases all over the world, none of which are there to defend America.

The aggressor is clear, except to those that don't want to see.
China incorporated Tibet in 1950 whose people never wished to be part of China. As you say, aggression is clear.

OP's bit about the moon is a bit of a stretch. China has a nascent space program which is ridiculously far from any kind of lunar exploitation. The strategic challenges China is likely to present in the future is far more local, specifically the East Pacific which is quickly coalescing around the US.
There have been a number of small military actions by China. China has fought India on the border. China had a border military action against Vietnam after the Vietnamese war ended. China has been giving nuclear technology help to Iran. China has fought internal Muslims. China has fought in small ways with Taiwan. China has in the last couple of years claimed the South China sea areas which would belong to other nations if the sea was divided most equitably, including militarily seizing some of the small islands. Then there is the current military claims and positioning of China and the US near some Japanese islands further north.

Whether or not China moves to take over the moon is mainly a matter of whether or not China wants to spend the money. China has its own economy to draw upon, plus more than two trillion American dollars she holds, and other foreign holdings.

China is able to move very quickly in the technology area. Remember that even when China was poor, she developed nuclear weapons so quickly that many people were shocked. China has already put a person into an orbit around earth, which means that for all practical purposes, the technology is almost there. In addition, sending a heavy moon rover to the moon is another indication that Chinese space technology is now almost up to the level of American technology, or might perhaps even be equal to US space technology. One might note that when developing space technology, a lot of America's early rockets exploded. China hasn't had that problem of many failures.

Note also that costs are lower in China than in the United States, so the same amount of military spending produces much more than the U.S. can manage. So even though China's military budget is lower than the US, China still has a large army, etc.

Jim
Obviously, China, if it should choose, could pose a serious threat to it's neighbors in relatively short order. Still, they do not possess a blue-water of any substance so we are talking about decades before the can project military power beyond their immediate borders. Meanwhile, others, especially Japan, are not oblivious to the looming potential and have started contingency plans to protect their interests.
 

Unkotare

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Remember that even when China was poor, she developed nuclear weapons so quickly that many people were shocked.


Not so shocked. The Soviets gave them the technology.
 
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Whereisup

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China incorporated Tibet in 1950 whose people never wished to be part of .[/QUO now almost up to the level of American technology, or might perhaps even be equal to US space technology. One might note that when developing space technology,
Jim
Obviously, China, if it should choose, could pose a serious threat to it's neighbors in relatively short order. Still, they do not possess a blue-water of any substance so we are talking about decades before the can project military power beyond their immediate borders. Meanwhile, others, especially Japan, are not oblivious to the looming potential and have started contingency plans to protect their interests.
I think you are way underestimating China, which could be disastrous. China's rapid economic growth rate means that she should become the world's largest economy in just a few years. China has been almost doubling her research funding each years for some time, while, in terms of real dollars, American research funding has been flat for more than a decade. China holds enough American dollars and American debt to bring down the American economy at any time.

Personally, I'm not really all that concerned. I love Chinese culture, and it wouldn't be all that terrible if China did take over the United States. Also, in terms of personality, I am more like a Chinese person than like a current media credit card indebted jump up and down American.

Yet, I like my fellow Americans and think they probably want to be free, so I want that for them. Also, humanity will be more creative and successful if there is a diversity of cultures, rather than just a world Chinese culture.

So I am suggesting a way for America to save itself, but if I'm not successful, it will still be OK, though not as good as if we had both a strong Chinese culture and a strong American culture.

Jim
 

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