The big question about life on other planets: 1000000000000000000000 planets in the universe

[Frannie]

What did you say why existence exists?

Excuse you. You are tasked with answering this question.

So, your answer?

I don't know. Why is what exists not independent from mathematics?

Math can no longer explain galactic movement which is why physicist are now speculating that there is no universe except as code...…………..

So if we can not explain it mathematically, then it does not exist.

Nothing that is not understood first can be explained at all. This is why the universe is now expanding faster than physics allows for

 

[zaangalewa]

Try to imagine a universe without mathematics.

Isaac Asimov wrote a short scifi story about two guys chatting. Meanwhile impossible erratic things were happening all around them. They were talking about a scifi short story they read about a universe where events were mathematically predictable. They decided they would not want to live in a place like that.

What Asimov was not able to know or did not know was that even in a totally determined world a living future is not concrete predictable - asides from all random principles (mathematics?). And try really to imagine a world without mathematics - without natural laws. You will come very fast to an end, if you do so. The try tohe ossnt andnioagaine a butterfly. How did you create it in your thoughts? But what would really happen in such a case? By the way: Music is mathematics too - the "emotional" side of relations in space and time. Is music predictable? Is it not predictable?

 

[Frannie]

Try to imagine a universe without mathematics.

Isaac Asimov wrote a short scifi story about two guys chatting. Meanwhile impossible erratic things were happening all around them. They were talking about a scifi short story they read about a universe where events were mathematically predictable. They decided they would not want to live in a place like that.

What Asimov was not able to know or did not know was that even in a totally determined world a living future is not concrete predictable - asides from all random principles (mathematics?). And try really to imagine a world without mathematics - without natural laws. You will come very fast to an end, if you do so. The try tohe ossnt andnioagaine a butterfly. How did you create it in your thoughts? But what would really happen in such a case? By the way: Music is mathematics too - the "emotional" side of relations in space and time. Is music predictable? Is it not predictable?

Life is not mathematically based.

 

[RWS]

 

[zaangalewa]

Try to imagine a universe without mathematics.

Isaac Asimov wrote a short scifi story about two guys chatting. Meanwhile impossible erratic things were happening all around them. They were talking about a scifi short story they read about a universe where events were mathematically predictable. They decided they would not want to live in a place like that.

What Asimov was not able to know or did not know was that even in a totally determined world a living future is not concrete predictable - asides from all random principles (mathematics?). And try really to imagine a world without mathematics - without natural laws. You will come very fast to an end, if you do so. The try tohe ossnt andnioagaine a butterfly. How did you create it in your thoughts? But what would really happen in such a case? By the way: Music is mathematics too - the "emotional" side of relations in space and time. Is music predictable? Is it not predictable?

Life is not mathematically based.

A dog for example solves very complex mathematical operations unbelievable fast when he hunts behind a ball and jumps and takes it with his hand ... ah sorry - with his mouth. Every lifeform is a structure, which is only understandable in context with other structures. When you take a look at your hand then you take a look at a tree (better to say 'on the realized idea of trees') for example. Some of our animalic ancestors were able to move their forlimbs into lots of directions into space - and when they took a branch with their fingers and hand and arm and body, then they did not fall from the tree. This is a reason for our excellent orientation in three dimensions - although we are not birds.

This means by the way not that human beings (or lifeforms at all) are machines. Also not in case of artificial intelligence. Special programs - expert systems in combination with structure recognition find some solutions, which we call "intelligent" *- but with real intelligence has this nothing to do. Computers are only calculators. They have not any clue about what this means what they are "doing". A dog knows what he is doing (hopefully): he is catching a ball. If you like to build a machine, which catches a ball, then you drive crazy about this complex problem, when you have to solve it with algorithms - which are anyway senseless, because still no machine is able to catch a ball mechanically like a dog who is hunting a flying ball and catching it in the air.

Pope Francis said by the way not a long time ago, that we lose with every lifeform a voice of god. I hope everyone takes serios such words. We - everyone of us - have the responsiblity for the survival of all and every life on planet Earth.

 

[RWS]

I agree with your last sentence. It's up to us.

And we have to fight "them". Not each other.

How do we fight them? And who is "them"? Great topic to discuss!

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

So, abiogenesis is a foregone conclusion. Once there was no life, then there was, and what connects these two states is a deterministic physical process, governed by natural laws. We call this process abiogenesis.

The evidence for abiogenesis is every observation ever made. All point to a deterministic universe governed by natural laws. Also, once there was no life, now there is. So, of course, what connects these two states is a deterministic, physical process. Abiogenesis as a fact is "proven" thusly. It's as solid a fact as any other, just as a physical process connecting the two states of a glass of milk on the table and then a broken glass and puddle of milk on the floor, is.

 

[Frannie]

So, abiogenesis is a foregone conclusion. Once there was no life, then there was, and what connects these two states is a deterministic physical process, governed by natural laws. We call this process abiogenesis.

The evidence for abiogenesis is every observation ever made. All point to a deterministic universe governed by natural laws. Also, once there was no life, now there is. So, of course, what connects these two states is a deterministic, physical process. Abiogenesis as a fact is "proven" thusly. It's as solid a fact as any other, just as a physical process connecting the two states of a glass of milk on the table and then a broken glass and puddle of milk on the floor, is.

If humans travel to mars is abiogenesis responsible for life on mars

 

[RWS]

Good question. The thing is did abiogenesis exist on Mars before humans arrive to infect it.

Same thing with Earth. There was a time that our planet was being bombarded and no life could exist (except maybe tardigrades ). It's possible that life on Earth came from another planet, and even another solar system, since all our planets went through this bombardment phase. So our life could be from another solar system, that similarly went through bombardment, and so on. In the end, it had to start somewhere, and not from nothing but from organic materials that are common. It could have started here, it could have started somewhere else and transmitted here, or it could have all taken place independently. Physics that works here on Earth, also works the same on other planets with similar resources. So Mars life (if found) may show an independent genesis, or be close enough to our DNA that we can't tell. I have no idea. But personally I think it may be panspermia. Where the original source came from is something I can't fathom and don't think it can be figured out. Or life could be common and it developed here independently, just like anywhere else...

 

[RWS]

That's why we need aliens to tell us the truth!

 

[luchitociencia]

A dog for example solves very complex mathematical operations unbelievable fast when he hunts behind a ball and jumps and takes it with his hand ... ah sorry - with his mouth.

Sure, he has his mouth calculator to check the wind direction, the temperature of the day, the initial speed of the body in the grass, the chemical composition of the air, and more, everything in a fraction of a second right before jumping to catch the ball you threw on the air.

That is

Mathematics is just a tool we use to obtain amounts, calculate motion of phenomena, etc.

Even the god of the bible, making a whole creation, he just let man to go by his own. No calculations made, just to go by his own.

Man showed no mathematics knowledge was needed to commit a sin, and God didn't use a physical weight scale to sentence the punishment.

And so far, I bet you didn't do any mathematical calculations before writing your odd message.

Your point has zero mathematical support.

Otherwise show me the formulas you use when you post here.

 

[zaangalewa]

A dog for example solves very complex mathematical operations unbelievable fast when he hunts behind a ball and jumps and takes it with his hand ... ah sorry - with his mouth.

Sure, he has his mouth calculator to check the wind direction, the temperature of the day, the initial speed of the body in the grass, the chemical composition of the air, and more, everything in a fraction of a second right before jumping to catch the ball you threw on the air.

That is

Mathematics is just a tool we use to obtain amounts, calculate motion of phenomena, etc.

No. Mathematics has a purpose free character. It's free but not arbitrary.

Even the god of the bible, making a whole creation, he just let man to go by his own. No calculations made, just to go by his own.

I don't have any idea what you like to say with this words. How is someone able to go without the existance of all natural laws - whether one knows somehting about or not?

Man showed no mathematics knowledge was needed to commit a sin,

Difficult to translate this for me - very strange form to think ... the deeper question behind this sentence is perhaps: "When will idiocy become criminal?" You seem to think "never" is the right answer. But to be killed because of idiocy (innocent killer) or to be killed because of a crime (evil murderer) - makes this really a big difference for the victim?

and God didn't use a physical weight scale to sentence the punishment.

Which punishment? And to "weigh" is mathematics. The possible results are A<B, A=B, A>B. In case god weighs perhaps a forth possibility exists - I don't know, I am not god - but we all are not able to think this fourth possibility. Nevertheless I'm sure god knows what the best to do and how to do it at this day, which we often imagine like a kind of court case. It's said by the way god is using your own scale to measure you.

And so far, I bet you didn't do any mathematical calculations before writing your odd message.

To be honest: In the moment I don't have any clue what you like to say or what's the philosophy behind your words.

Your point has zero mathematical support.

Otherwise show me the formulas you use when you post here.

Woof?

All, I guess, whether I know them or not.

 

[luchitociencia]

To be honest: In the moment I don't have any clue what you like to say or what's the philosophy behind your words.

Just the basic equation

A (your idea everything is ruled by numbers) + B (Your lack to prove it) = C (you are talking peanuts)

B = C - A
A = C - B

 

[zaangalewa]

To be honest: In the moment I don't have any clue what you like to say or what's the philosophy behind your words.

Just the basic equation

A (your idea everything is ruled by numbers) + B (Your lack to prove it) = C (you are talking peanuts)

B = C - A
A = C - B

To calculate with numbers is an application of mathematics - but it is not mathematics on its own. You underestimate mathematics drastically. Hyper-infinite sets are for example not constructable, but they are terminologicably determinable. Whether such sets exist (or not) is not only doubtful - it is even unprovable. You are only able to use such sets on reason of inspiration. Nevertheless this is mathematics.

 

[luchitociencia]

To calculate with numbers is an application of mathematics - but it is not mathematics on its own. You underestimate mathematics drastically. Hyper-infinite sets are for example not constructable, but they are terminologicably determinable. Whether such sets exist (or not) is not only doubtful - it is even unprovable. You are only able to use such sets on reason of inspiration. Nevertheless this is mathematics.

Point is that mathematics is not even a language but just a tool.

It's a useful tool for helping the explanation of phenomena.

But mathematics is not the rule which will cause the phenomena.

 

[RWS]

Very interesting.

Mathematics may not yet explain the phenomena. However, given enough time, it may.

So do we put phenomena in the "religion" column or the "let's wait and see" column?

I vote for the latter. But I can also understand that people want instant answers. Very interesting conversation...


One thing that I have to say though is that the "let's wait and see" group, has always been right so far in terms of science.

 

[MaryL]

Keep thinking about this poem from Blake: To hold a grain of sand in the palm of your hand...

 

[zaangalewa]

To calculate with numbers is an application of mathematics - but it is not mathematics on its own. You underestimate mathematics drastically. Hyper-infinite sets are for example not constructable, but they are terminologicably determinable. Whether such sets exist (or not) is not only doubtful - it is even unprovable. You are only able to use such sets on reason of inspiration. Nevertheless this is mathematics.

Point is that mathematics is not even a language but just a tool.

A universal tool ... and a meta-universal tool too - in case of the ideas around a multiverse for example. But mathematics is for example music too - or is music mathematics? And mathematics has not any material background - it's a spiritual tool for the spiritual human mind.

It's a useful tool for helping the explanation of phenomena.

Sure you can use mathematics to try to find out, how to nail a nail into a nail - but that's also only an application of mathematics and not mathematics on its own.

But mathematics is not the rule which will cause the phenomena.

What many physicists doubt about. But tell me: What causes a phenomenon? Other phenomenons? And what caused the first phenomenon? The physicist Anton Zeilinger for example had an idea, which I interpret here now as an "Looks like in the beginning was pure information. Looks like in the beginning was 'the word'. Everything came from it".

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

And what caused the first phenomenon?

How do you know there was a "first"? Correct answer: You don't. And even if there was, it would not lend a shred of support to the truth of any silly religious dogma.

 

[RWS]

Of course, I'm not giving any thought to religious beliefs. Just the idea of a supreme creator, or ID.... Obviously a supreme creator doesn't care about us, but it's still possible that it exists, in the form of us being a simulation. An ID is more possible to me. Where that intelligence came from, is unknown to me, but definitely not something to worship. ID would likely be a simulation as well.

I think quantum theory has a lot for us to consider spiritually. We are all connected, down to our basic particles. We all came from one source, the big bang, and every particle could have been entangled at that point. There could be something out there that we don't understand yet, but it definitely isn't a god to worship and kill for.