The Big Flaw in Libertarianism

[IndependntLogic]

I know someone who really likes working at Walmart. Of course, that doesn't make the news or fit some scenario, so few hear it.

That's nice. Well then I guess no one is ever mistreated at a company if you know someone who likes working there. Thanks for sharing.

 

[M14 Shooter]

IL:
I didn't see a response to this.
Did you concede the point?

I've provided dozens of examples throught the thread. If you search this thread with my name, you can find them quickly and easily.

You have not shown how any of the examples you provided -prove- the assertion you made.

Absent this proof, your assertion fails and your premise, based on this assertion, is not sound.

Given that, there's no need to address this topic.

 

[eflatminor]

So all of those companies have been found guilty of the above (okay, maybe not Chrysler). Does anyone really believe that those companies would have spent the millions of dollars necessary to make their products or practices safer / fairer without government imposed consequences? The only people I know who do, are Libertarians.

So... you cannot show how these examples prove your assertion.
/thread

IL:
I didn't see a response to this.
Did you concede the point?

I still haven't received any response to my retort to the OP...and that was seven pages back.

 

[IndependntLogic]

So... you cannot show how these examples prove your assertion.
/thread

IL:
I didn't see a response to this.
Did you concede the point?

I still haven't received any response to my retort to the OP...and that was seven pages back.

I've got a few minutes left before work if you want to C&P it. I will always address any issue, topic or question directly but it's probably already been addressed. Keep in mind, we all miss posts here and there because you know, we work and spend time with family and play tennis and stuff!

 

[Liberty]

This thread should have died on page 3...how is IL still defending his crack pot assertion that a system does not work(capitalism, free markets) based on a different system not working(corporatism)? Talk about derping.

 

[IndependntLogic]

This thread should have died on page 3...how is IL still defending his crack pot assertion that a system does not work(capitalism, free markets) based on a different system not working(corporatism)? Talk about derping.

An yet here we are, me proving my point with facts and history and you posting fluff.

Now try to pay attention. This is obviously tricky for you.
I have never said capitalism doesn't work. Helll, I'm a capitalist so I hope it works!
I have said that one specific component, a single crackpot theory (since you like that term) posited by Libertarians is flawed.
Do you understand the difference there?
If not, find one of the Liberal Elitists and ask them to explain it to you.
They're always quite charitible!

 

[M14 Shooter]

This thread should have died on page 3...how is IL still defending his crack pot assertion that a system does not work(capitalism, free markets) based on a different system not working(corporatism)? Talk about derping.

An yet here we are, me proving my point with facts and history and you posting fluff.

You have not shown how any of the examples you provided -prove- the assertion you made.

Absent this proof, your assertion remains unsupported and your premise, based on this assertion, has not been shown sound.

Until you show that your premise is sound, there's no need to discuss the issue you present.

 

[LibertyForAll]

So basically you're saying that a company that screws employees based on gender WON'T correct itself and the market WON'T correct it either but Fcuk me because I think that's unfair (which it is).
Yeah. I've lived in countries exactly like that. I'd prefer my favorite one (USA) not be one of them.

Read the last sentence in my post again. The company will correct itself when the costs of the failed business model demand it or they will fail as a business. Ether way the problem is solved.

Um yeah. Lovely theory. Have you noticed that none of those things have happened? The company hasn't corrected itself. It won't. The economy is tough and they will just continue screwing people. Also, it also has not failed. It is as profitiable as ever. Customers aren't going away because of the way Wal-Mart treats employees. Neither is there a shortage of people desperate enough to work there.
That is not theory.
That is the difference between your theory and what happens in real life.
That is reality.
The examples of this are too numerous to ever count.
If you have ever lived in a country with little or no regulation in this regard, you will find out this is reality everywhere there is no such regulation.
Name a country with no environmental regulation or enforcement.
I'll show you a country where the envirnment is destroyed.
Name a country with no labor regulation or efnorcement.
I'll show you a country with horrible labor conditions and wages.
Reality.

You missed my point. The reason that walmart hasn't corrected itself is because they are offering a wage that people are willing to accept. The people have their reasons for taking it and it should be up to them. No one is forcing anyone to work at Walmart. Is it better to employ a 100 people at 4 dollars an hour or 50 people at 8 dollars an hour? If I was homeless I would take anything to try to work my way out of the situation but since companies only have so much to spend on labor they can only hire so many people at a time.

I'm not talking about not having any regulations at all. There is a middle ground and you are trying to paint everything as black and white.

 

[saveliberty]

Il's using the same techniques as Obama. Ignore failure and point fingers.

 

[IndependntLogic]

Read the last sentence in my post again. The company will correct itself when the costs of the failed business model demand it or they will fail as a business. Ether way the problem is solved.

Um yeah. Lovely theory. Have you noticed that none of those things have happened? The company hasn't corrected itself. It won't. The economy is tough and they will just continue screwing people. Also, it also has not failed. It is as profitiable as ever. Customers aren't going away because of the way Wal-Mart treats employees. Neither is there a shortage of people desperate enough to work there.
That is not theory.
That is the difference between your theory and what happens in real life.
That is reality.
The examples of this are too numerous to ever count.
If you have ever lived in a country with little or no regulation in this regard, you will find out this is reality everywhere there is no such regulation.
Name a country with no environmental regulation or enforcement.
I'll show you a country where the envirnment is destroyed.
Name a country with no labor regulation or efnorcement.
I'll show you a country with horrible labor conditions and wages.
Reality.

You missed my point. The reason that walmart hasn't corrected itself is because they are offering a wage that people are willing to accept. The people have their reasons for taking it and it should be up to them. No one is forcing anyone to work at Walmart. Is it better to employ a 100 people at 4 dollars an hour or 50 people at 8 dollars an hour? If I was homeless I would take anything to try to work my way out of the situation but since companies only have so much to spend on labor they can only hire so many people at a time.

I'm talking about not having any regulations at all. There is a middle ground and you are trying to paint everything as black and white.

Actually quite the opposite. I am the one saying there is a middle ground and you are the one with the black and white thinking.
There are many industries that are OVER-REGULATED. Do you see what I have just said? Is anyone not clear that I believe this?
Because the Libertarian view stated in the OP is that there should be NO regulation. THAT is black and white.
Take the example I provided of the pharmacuetical industry. It never self-corrected as an industry and without government regulation, probably never would have. So people got hurt or died from bad drugs all the time. Regulation actually ended up being GOOD for the pharma industry because once people knew that drugs had to be unifrm in dosage, tested prior to marketing etc... America went nuts for drugs. Sold like the dickens! So the unintended consequence of protecting the welfare of the citizenry was increased profits for pharmas.
However. As with all things government, give an inch, they'll take a mile. Now the inudstry is in my estimation over-regulated. Does that mean I would not want to see ANY regulation? No of course not. That is the "black & white" to which you refer. but for every bad drug that makes it to market, literally thousands are stopped BEFORE they hurt people. That's a good thing. Of course no agency has a 100% success rate but I'm glad there is an FDA.

Oh and Shooter, there's an example for you. been rbought up about 10 times in this thread, btw.

 

[M14 Shooter]

You missed my point. The reason that walmart hasn't corrected itself is because they are offering a wage that people are willing to accept.

An example of the free market working as it should.

What will happen when people arent willing to work for what WM offers? WM will be forced to change their pay scale.

No need for government involvement at all.

 

[IndependntLogic]

You missed my point. The reason that walmart hasn't corrected itself is because they are offering a wage that people are willing to accept.

An example of the free market working as it should.

What will happen when people arent willing to work for what WM offers? WM will be forced to change their pay scale.

No need for government involvement at all.

True!
Then we can be just like India!
Where the average wage is $2 a day!
Free market at work!
Not what I want for my country though.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Take the example I provided of the pharmacuetical industry. It never self-corrected as an industry and without government regulation, probably never would have. So people got hurt or died from bad drugs all the time. Regulation actually ended up being GOOD for the pharma industry because once people knew that drugs had to be unifrm in dosage, tested prior to marketing etc... America went nuts for drugs. Sold like the dickens! So the unintended consequence of protecting the welfare of the citizenry was increased profits for pharmas.
However. As with all things government, give an inch, they'll take a mile. Now the inudstry is in my estimation over-regulated. Does that mean I would not want to see ANY regulation? No of course not. That is the "black & white" to which you refer. but for every bad drug that makes it to market, literally thousands are stopped BEFORE they hurt people. That's a good thing. Of course no agency has a 100% success rate but I'm glad there is an FDA.

Oh and Shooter, there's an example for you. been rbought up about 10 times in this thread, btw.

That's what you consider an example that proves your assertion?
You'll have to do FAR beter than that; you can start by being specific in every regard.

It never self-corrected as an industry and without government regulation, probably never would have

Shiow this to be true.

Regulation actually ended up being GOOD for the pharma industry because once people knew that drugs had to be unifrm in dosage, tested prior to marketing etc... America went nuts for drugs

Show cause-effect.

 

[M14 Shooter]

You missed my point. The reason that walmart hasn't corrected itself is because they are offering a wage that people are willing to accept.

An example of the free market working as it should.

What will happen when people arent willing to work for what WM offers? WM will be forced to change their pay scale.

No need for government involvement at all.

True!

I know. Thank you for agreeing with me.

 

[IndependntLogic]

An example of the free market working as it should.

What will happen when people arent willing to work for what WM offers? WM will be forced to change their pay scale.

No need for government involvement at all.

True!

I know. Thank you for agreeing with me.

LOL! Love that you intentionally deleted the rest of my post. But I understand and I don't blame you. You're part of a political movement that has never and will never take place in any country that anyone would want to live in. Certainly not this one. Libertarianism is like Communism. It sounds so great on paper and never quite pans out that way in real life. Oh well.
That must be frustrating. I'm sure you're patriotic and that your frequent hostility stems from wanting what you percieve as a better way for our country to be run. I can think a a thousand things i'd change about our country. I'm sure we're both equally certain that we're right and the other is wrong.
At least we give a shit.

 

[M14 Shooter]

True!

I know. Thank you for agreeing with me.

LOL! Love that you intentionally deleted the rest of my post.

You agreed that WM would have to change its pay structure to reflect market demands, and you agreed the government did not need to be involved.

No more need be said.

 

[IndependntLogic]

I know. Thank you for agreeing with me.

LOL! Love that you intentionally deleted the rest of my post.

You agreed that WM would have to change its pay structure to reflect market demands, and you agreed the government did not need to be involved.

No more need be said.

Seriously? Is your little ego just that fragile? Hmmm. Yeah you intentionally deleted the part about that mentality eventually creating a poverty state like India for us. Really? That scared?
Disappointing.
Oh well, like I said, I understand your frustration at knowing your political beliefs will never be a reality and now it's become obvious you have a compulsion to have the last word - even if it's an edited and twisted one.
That's kinda sad. Well fine. Have at it.

 

[Uncensored2008]

With all sincerity, if more Libertarians were like you, your movement might be taken more seriously. Unfortunately and as has been demonstrated in this very thread, the overwhelming majority are not. I mean, you've seen the post that claim things like "Well if a drug company invested millions in a product and then found out it was harmful in a way that probably wouldn't be detected, and they stood to make billions off it with low risk, they would just be nice and tell us."
Seriously, WTF?

Still you offer spurious arguments and logical fallacy.

Ever heard of Fen Phen?

Was this released under a laissez faire system of no regulation, thus resulting in deaths and damage? No? In fact, this is but one of thousands of examples of government doing exactly what you accuse industry of. Did the FDA protect anyone from Fen Phen? Quite the opposite, they falsified documents to hide the issues with the the drugs.

So who DID cause Fen Phen to crumble? Wasn't it in fact the civil liability suits filed by consumers suffering tort? Just as Libertarians suggest in a free market?

Here is an example the refutes everything you claim.

 

[M14 Shooter]

LOL! Love that you intentionally deleted the rest of my post.

You agreed that WM would have to change its pay structure to reflect market demands, and you agreed the government did not need to be involved.
No more need be said.

Seriously? Is your little ego just that fragile?

I see you have degerated to ad homs.
So much for your supposed willingness/desire to have a serious discussion.

 

[Uncensored2008]

True!
Then we can be just like India!
Where the average wage is $2 a day!

India is a socialist country.

Conditions are improving as they adopt more market oriented policies.

Are you sure you thought your example through?

Free market at work!
Not what I want for my country though.

What made you think India had a free market?