M14 Shooter
The Light of Truth
Never mind that as those policies take hold, the labor market will force wages up.
In China, too.
The Big Flaw in Libertarianism
- Thread starter IndependntLogic
- Start date
In China, too.
OohPooPahDoo
Gold Member
The big flaw in libertarianism - they complain about "both parties" being the problem, but dutifully pullt the lever for the Republican Party almost every time.
Link?
(and just because someone calls himself a libertarian doesn't mean he is one, same with people who call themselves liberal/conservative/progressive/etc)
It would be interesting to see stats on that sort of thing. None of the libertarians I know consider themselves "Republicans", though obviously many Repubs want to claim libertarian values.
M14 Shooter
The Light of Truth
An unprovable assertion.
I'm a libertarian, I'm as likely to vote Obama as I am Romney (that likelihood being zero).
But on the other side it's a hijacked term like all politicial terms, even John McCain sometimes calls himself libertarian, which is obviously a lie and joke.
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Uncensored2008
Libertarian Radical
Republicans are a lot closer to Libertarian values. Republicans often talk a very good line, problem is that the rarely act on the talk.
IndependntLogic
Senior Member
- Jul 14, 2011
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- #228
I get it. So then if India doesn't have a free market - and I'm sure you claim America doesn't, then who does?
If no one does, what makes you think anyone ever will?
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IndependntLogic
Senior Member
- Jul 14, 2011
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- Thread starter
- #229
Here is a difference between me and 99% of the posters here.
I can respect that you're not going to vote the same way I am.
It's hard to find people like that here.
If you feel Gary Anderson, Ron Paul or even Ru Paul is the best choice, good for you. I would bet you can even tell me why you make your choice and back it up with reasoning.
I may disagree with you but (gasp!) that's okay.
I find that a far sight better than those who vote a certain direction because their parents did or because they've always been a member of a certain party.
My first four presidential votes were Republican. Now you couldn't get me near what that party has become.
Uncensored2008
Libertarian Radical
So you lack the eduction to know the difference between economic and political systems?
It would no doubt surprise you that Lenin's Soviet Union was arguably the most democratic nation in history.
Socialism in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Are you an idiot? Conditions in India have vastly improved for the average person since 1960 - night and day.
America has a nominally market driven economy. India has a centrally planned and managed economy that is moving toward a market economy.
Legitimate question, have you ever had a class in economics?
IndependntLogic
Senior Member
- Jul 14, 2011
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- #231
Have you ever directly answered a question? You would make a fine politician. Lots of bs. No straight answers.
The topic is simple: While we are definitely over-regulated, the extreme concept that there is no need of ANY regulation because The Magical Market Fairies will take care of everything is just plain bull shit.
There is need of SOME regulation. Not to the extent we have now but certainly not zero.
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Uncensored2008
Libertarian Radical
You started a thread to slander Libertarians, you got your ass handed to you. You persisted by making spurious and false claims whilst demonstrating abject ignorance.
Lenin's USSR was indeed the most pure democracy in history. Do you even grasp what a "soviet" is? It's a congress or committee. The problem is that you lack a fundamental grasp of what a democracy is. Your neighbors voting on whether you should get dinner tonight might not be the great thing you imagine. You no doubt believe the USA is a democracy and have no grasp of what a constitutional republic is.
You demonstrate no understanding at all of economic systems, thinking that "democracy" and "socialism" are mutually exclusive.
As for regulation, Have you ever heard of Underwriter's Laboratory? This is the U/L that you find on electrical and electronic equipment. Would you be surprised to learn that U/L is NOT a government body? In fact, it is purely voluntary - still you will find absolutely no products without U/L certification. Now you worship government as the highest manifestation of the human condition, so would you care to examine the effectiveness of U/L versus the FDA? Say appliance fires compared to Salmonella outbreaks?
In fact, the record of private certification agencies, ISO, IEEE, GAAP, etc. so vastly outperforms government regulators that there it is an absurdity.
But you don't grasp this.
LibertyForAll
Senior Member
This thread was based on the false premise that libertarians can be painted with a broad brush. There are different philosophies some more extreme than others. I rarely see libertarians calling for complete deregulation. I think Kevin is the only one in this thread that has called for that.
bayoubill
aka Sheik Yerbouti...
My apologies for not getting back to the discussion sooner...
and I'm afraid I'm going to have to take a rain check on continuing the discussion...
there is much here to address... and little time to do it...
hopefully I'll be back in here tomorrow to pick up where I left off...
IndependntLogic
Senior Member
- Jul 14, 2011
- 2,997
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- Thread starter
- #235
You started a thread to slander Libertarians, you got your ass handed to you.
Nah. You think so but really, no one has made a case that is convincing to anyone but the members of your club.
So while you seem a tady hysterical and over-sensitive about me simply challenging a theory I'd heard from a Libertarian (on this board and in other places) there is no "slander" involved. Ya know, if you guys didn't go into hysterics every time someone disagreed with you, you might be taken seriously by more than 0.5% of the population.
You persisted by making spurious and false claims whilst demonstrating abject ignorance.
OMG I was spurious! Was I Spast & Spurious?Seriously dude, settle down. Have a nice cup of tea or something.
Lenin's USSR was indeed the most pure democracy in history. Do you even grasp what a "soviet" is? It's a congress or committee. The problem is that you lack a fundamental grasp of what a democracy is. Your neighbors voting on whether you should get dinner tonight might not be the great thing you imagine. You no doubt believe the USA is a democracy and have no grasp of what a constitutional republic is.
This is a challenge you are always going to have, if you want anyone to ever look at Libertarianism seriously. You guys all talk as if theory is or was reality. In THEORY, the Soviet Union would have had the greatest distribution of power but in REALITY, that was nowhere near the case. It is a perfect example of the flaw I spoke of. In theory companies would never intentionally decide NOT to recall a harmful product because it was dangerous - or even to allow it to go out in the first place. In reality, the examples of enitre industries harming consumers, endangering the lives of their workers etc... are too numerous to name.
You demonstrate no understanding at all of economic systems, thinking that "democracy" and "socialism" are mutually exclusive.
As for regulation, Have you ever heard of Underwriter's Laboratory? This is the U/L that you find on electrical and electronic equipment. Would you be surprised to learn that U/L is NOT a government body? In fact, it is purely voluntary - still you will find absolutely no products without U/L certification. Now you worship government as the highest manifestation of the human condition, so would you care to examine the effectiveness of U/L versus the FDA? Say appliance fires compared to Salmonella outbreaks?
Have you ever heard of Moody's? The fine folks who tolld us that CMBS' were worthy of a A+ rating. Funny, they're still around, aren't they.
You're logic is beyond flawed:
If there is one example of a company doing the right thing, this proves all companies will always do the right thing. Lovely theory.
In fact, the record of private certification agencies, ISO, IEEE, GAAP, etc. so vastly outperforms government regulators that there it is an absurdity.
But you don't grasp this.
Not true. But wait, let use the exact Libertarian logic when pointing the FDA missed a bad drug.
There are bad engineers who should not have been certified. OMG The IEEE is completely worthless and should be destroyed and replaced with a government agency! Obviously I'm not stupid enough to believe that. Nor am I so blinded by ideology that I would believe that because it conforms the what I read in a pamphlet on Independentism.
You are among the most reasonable and objective Libertarians I've encountered. So okay. I hereby officially retract that ALL libertarians would argue in favor of such a foolish belief. Thus far, you are the only one in this thread who has said otherwise though.
Just look at the example from Uncensored directly above you for proof. Or virtually every other Libertarian poster in this thread.
All argue that complete deregulation would not have seriously damaging consequences because "The Market" (I feel like the word God could be put in there with some of these zealots) will take care of everything and all of us. Cum By Ya baby.
So fine. There are Libertarians who realie the theory I describe isn't actually going to be the solution to all things. Some regulation is required.
My apologies for painting all Libertarians with the same brush.
bayoubill
aka Sheik Yerbouti...
You started a thread to slander Libertarians, you got your ass handed to you.
Nah. You think so but really, no one has made a case that is convincing to anyone but the members of your club.
So while you seem a tady hysterical and over-sensitive about me simply challenging a theory I'd heard from a Libertarian (on this board and in other places) there is no "slander" involved. Ya know, if you guys didn't go into hysterics every time someone disagreed with you, you might be taken seriously by more than 0.5% of the population.
You persisted by making spurious and false claims whilst demonstrating abject ignorance.
OMG I was spurious! Was I Spast & Spurious?
Lenin's USSR was indeed the most pure democracy in history. Do you even grasp what a "soviet" is? It's a congress or committee. The problem is that you lack a fundamental grasp of what a democracy is. Your neighbors voting on whether you should get dinner tonight might not be the great thing you imagine. You no doubt believe the USA is a democracy and have no grasp of what a constitutional republic is.
This is a challenge you are always going to have, if you want anyone to ever look at Libertarianism seriously. You guys all talk as if theory is or was reality. In THEORY, the Soviet Union would have had the greatest distribution of power but in REALITY, that was nowhere near the case. It is a perfect example of the flaw I spoke of. In theory companies would never intentionally decide NOT to recall a harmful product because it was dangerous - or even to allow it to go out in the first place. In reality, the examples of enitre industries harming consumers, endangering the lives of their workers etc... are too numerous to name.
You demonstrate no understanding at all of economic systems, thinking that "democracy" and "socialism" are mutually exclusive.
As for regulation, Have you ever heard of Underwriter's Laboratory? This is the U/L that you find on electrical and electronic equipment. Would you be surprised to learn that U/L is NOT a government body? In fact, it is purely voluntary - still you will find absolutely no products without U/L certification. Now you worship government as the highest manifestation of the human condition, so would you care to examine the effectiveness of U/L versus the FDA? Say appliance fires compared to Salmonella outbreaks?
Have you ever heard of Moody's? The fine folks who tolld us that CMBS' were worthy of a A+ rating. Funny, they're still around, aren't they.
You're logic is beyond flawed:
If there is one example of a company doing the right thing, this proves all companies will always do the right thing. Lovely theory.
In fact, the record of private certification agencies, ISO, IEEE, GAAP, etc. so vastly outperforms government regulators that there it is an absurdity.
But you don't grasp this.
Not true. But wait, let use the exact Libertarian logic when pointing the FDA missed a bad drug.
There are bad engineers who should not have been certified. OMG The IEEE is completely worthless and should be destroyed and replaced with a government agency! Obviously I'm not stupid enough to believe that. Nor am I so blinded by ideology that I would believe that because it conforms the what I read in a pamphlet on Independentism.
You are among the most reasonable and objective Libertarians I've encountered. So okay. I hereby officially retract that ALL libertarians would argue in favor of such a foolish belief. Thus far, you are the only one in this thread who has said otherwise though.
Just look at the example from Uncensored directly above you for proof. Or virtually every other Libertarian poster in this thread.
All argue that complete deregulation would not have seriously damaging consequences because "The Market" (I feel like the word God could be put in there with some of these zealots) will take care of everything and all of us. Cum By Ya baby.
So fine. There are Libertarians who realie the theory I describe isn't actually going to be the solution to all things. Some regulation is required.
My apologies for painting all Libertarians with the same brush.
An observation: I've been hangin' out with libertarians for more'n 30 years...
and, almost without exception, they all are truly fine people...
but I gotta say, many of 'em do tend to get kinda prickly whenever somebody questions libertarian ideals...
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saveliberty
Diamond Member
- Oct 12, 2009
- 58,878
- 11,043
- 2,030
Your butt hurt is noted IL.
IndependntLogic
Senior Member
- Jul 14, 2011
- 2,997
- 399
- 48
- Thread starter
- #238
You started a thread to slander Libertarians, you got your ass handed to you.
Nah. You think so but really, no one has made a case that is convincing to anyone but the members of your club.
So while you seem a tady hysterical and over-sensitive about me simply challenging a theory I'd heard from a Libertarian (on this board and in other places) there is no "slander" involved. Ya know, if you guys didn't go into hysterics every time someone disagreed with you, you might be taken seriously by more than 0.5% of the population.
You persisted by making spurious and false claims whilst demonstrating abject ignorance.
OMG I was spurious! Was I Spast & Spurious?
Lenin's USSR was indeed the most pure democracy in history. Do you even grasp what a "soviet" is? It's a congress or committee. The problem is that you lack a fundamental grasp of what a democracy is. Your neighbors voting on whether you should get dinner tonight might not be the great thing you imagine. You no doubt believe the USA is a democracy and have no grasp of what a constitutional republic is.
This is a challenge you are always going to have, if you want anyone to ever look at Libertarianism seriously. You guys all talk as if theory is or was reality. In THEORY, the Soviet Union would have had the greatest distribution of power but in REALITY, that was nowhere near the case. It is a perfect example of the flaw I spoke of. In theory companies would never intentionally decide NOT to recall a harmful product because it was dangerous - or even to allow it to go out in the first place. In reality, the examples of enitre industries harming consumers, endangering the lives of their workers etc... are too numerous to name.
You demonstrate no understanding at all of economic systems, thinking that "democracy" and "socialism" are mutually exclusive.
As for regulation, Have you ever heard of Underwriter's Laboratory? This is the U/L that you find on electrical and electronic equipment. Would you be surprised to learn that U/L is NOT a government body? In fact, it is purely voluntary - still you will find absolutely no products without U/L certification. Now you worship government as the highest manifestation of the human condition, so would you care to examine the effectiveness of U/L versus the FDA? Say appliance fires compared to Salmonella outbreaks?
Have you ever heard of Moody's? The fine folks who tolld us that CMBS' were worthy of a A+ rating. Funny, they're still around, aren't they.
You're logic is beyond flawed:
If there is one example of a company doing the right thing, this proves all companies will always do the right thing. Lovely theory.
In fact, the record of private certification agencies, ISO, IEEE, GAAP, etc. so vastly outperforms government regulators that there it is an absurdity.
But you don't grasp this.
Not true. But wait, let use the exact Libertarian logic when pointing the FDA missed a bad drug.
There are bad engineers who should not have been certified. OMG The IEEE is completely worthless and should be destroyed and replaced with a government agency! Obviously I'm not stupid enough to believe that. Nor am I so blinded by ideology that I would believe that because it conforms the what I read in a pamphlet on Independentism.
You are among the most reasonable and objective Libertarians I've encountered. So okay. I hereby officially retract that ALL libertarians would argue in favor of such a foolish belief. Thus far, you are the only one in this thread who has said otherwise though.
Just look at the example from Uncensored directly above you for proof. Or virtually every other Libertarian poster in this thread.
All argue that complete deregulation would not have seriously damaging consequences because "The Market" (I feel like the word God could be put in there with some of these zealots) will take care of everything and all of us. Cum By Ya baby.
So fine. There are Libertarians who realie the theory I describe isn't actually going to be the solution to all things. Some regulation is required.
My apologies for painting all Libertarians with the same brush.
An observation: I've been hangin' out with libertarians for more'n 30 years...
and, almost without exception, they all are truly fine people...
but I gotta say, many of 'em do tend to get kinda prickly whenever somebody questions libertarian ideals...
Prickly??? LOL! You sir, have the makings of a diplomat. Some of them are just plain religious about it! Only a few seem able to just rationally discuss their ideals, positions etc... The rest are well you know, emotional whackjobs who will post stuff with about as much substance as "Your butt..."
LOL! As I was saying....
Ah yes. How could anyone not take your little tinfoil hat seriously, eh? I am sure you are captain of the club!
EdwardBaiamonte
Platinum Member
- Nov 23, 2011
- 34,612
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Thats because independents decide elections so both parties must move to the middle. But, 100% of the energy for freedom from liberal government resides in the Republican Party just waiting for the center to move farther to the right.
bayoubill
aka Sheik Yerbouti...
An observation: I've been hangin' out with libertarians for more'n 30 years...
and, almost without exception, they all are truly fine people...
but I gotta say, many of 'em do tend to get kinda prickly whenever somebody questions libertarian ideals...
Prickly??? LOL! You sir, have the makings of a diplomat. Some of them are just plain religious about it! Only a few seem able to just rationally discuss their ideals, positions etc... The rest are well you know, emotional whackjobs who will post stuff with about as much substance as "Your butt..."
full disclosure: I consider myself a libertarian... prolly been that way practically since I was born...
there was a time when I was a huge pain in the butt, spouting off about libertarianism... I 'spect it prolly got to the point where people hid when they saw me comin'... some few years ago a good friend remarked that it seemed like I had lost my sense of humor whenever the subject of politics came up... and dang if he wasn't right...
since then I've tried to keep everything in perspective... and never take things too seriously... otherwise I'll just end up bitter... and what's the good of that...?
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