The abortion debate

[We Are They]

You folks who don't want to give women a choice should go live in a communist country, you'd feel more at home having no choice yourselves on anything.

I'm glad that you have the choice to kill your own children.

With logic like that, it's no wonder the US is in such bad shape, with commies like you trying to run things and tell everyone how to live.

 

[JBeukema]

I'm for choice, you're for no choice. You want everyone to live by your code of ethics, you're a moral communist. Good thing we live in a free country still.

It has already been shown that you, too, wish to force others to act according to your own morality on this very issue. If you ever stop trolling and remove your head from where you have wedged it, perhaps you'll learn something

 

[JBeukema]

frazzledgear, to be honest, i really only skimmed that- but wow... you should post more often

 

[renoite]

Nobody's talking about killing babies, please grow a brain or shut the **** up.

one more thing your just pissed because.... your for free choice but not for unborn children just for your own well being... if you approve of harming unborn children then thats something you have to live with.... at least i know i can live my life knowing i would never want or think its ok to abort a unborn child.

At least I'm not a total tard like you.

a tard huh well your smart all you can debate out is calling one a tard thats something kids use in like the 2 grade grow up

 

[Father Time]

frazzledgear, to be honest, i really only skimmed that- but wow... you should post more often

You kidding me?

Going on and on about the horrors of killing human life just because you find them inconvenient than one post explaining her being ok with the death penalty.

Most jaw dropping hypocrisy I've ever seen.

Also a very blatant showing of Godwin's law.

 

[frazzledgear]

I'm for choice, you're for no choice. You want everyone to live by your code of ethics, you're a moral communist. Good thing we live in a free country still.

I have several problems and ONE big problem with your notion of "choice" because you obviously have no moral concerns about the fact the choice you want to give someone -is the "choice" of whether to kill another human or not. A "moral communist"? Are you for real? It represents a form of COMMUNISM if the people want government to protect and value all human life instead of allowing the most vulnerable to be targeted for murder? Yeah, like how dare anyone expect their government to protect all human life, right? LOL

And since women were not given this "choice" until 1973 are you under the impression that it wasn't a free country for the other 197 years of its existence then? Freedom has nothing to do with a "choice" to kill your unwanted children. You think that is what is meant by "freedom" -the freedom to kill off anyone who happens to be in your way as long as they are the most vulnerable, the smallest and youngest of humans?

Freedom means the RIGHT of THE PEOPLE to decide what laws and rules they choose to be governed by - and the freedom to not have government ram unwanted laws down their throats against their will. As long as those laws and rules do not infringe on the REAL human rights of others, it doesn't matter what laws they choose to live by. If they want to make it illegal to spit on the sidewalk because they think it is gross to try and walk with constantly having to watch where they step -so what? They had the freedom to choose that law -and the freedom for any later generation to rescind it if they didn't like that law. THAT is true freedom.

So where does "freedom" come into play in your mind when it comes to abortion, huh? There is no human right to kill off your unwanted offspring if you manage to do it when they are really young and really small. There really isn't in spite of the mindless rants and chants of the man-hating leftwing harridans. A truly free people have the right to decide the laws and rules they will be governed by -and that includes this issue too. Legalized abortion was FORCED on the people and rammed down the throats of the majority against their will by government. And not by their elected representatives who could be held accountable for it by the people - but an elite group of just NINE people. That isn't "freedom" and the people who had that forced on them against their will were in NO way "free" with regard to this issue. Pretty appalling you think that legalized abortion somehow expanded freedom in this country -when in fact the manner it was forced on the people against their will represents stripping TRUE freedom from the people. Having laws rammed down the throats of the majority by a tiny elite is an oligarchy -while the people have no recourse if they don't like what has been forced upon them. That elite group of just 9 simply IMPOSED their rule on the people -hundreds of millions of them - against their will. If that is "freedom" to you -then you certainly haven't much use for REAL freedom, do you? But what will you really think the next time when it is a law YOU don't want rammed down your throat against your will and the will of the majority? Still going to celebrate that as how true freedom is defined or what? ROFLMAO

Americans don't take kindly to having unwanted laws rammed down their throats and have THEIR rights to decide what laws and rules they will live by infringed upon in that way. Which is why it is STILL a very much UNSETTLED political issue, a sharply polarizing issue to this very day -even decades later. Nowhere close to a settled issue -and it will remain that way until it is the people themselves who make the final decision on this issue and not some court that cannot be held accountable. No court can EVER make abortion palatable for those who consider it to be murder.

A recent poll shows that the majority of people in this country consider themselves to be pro-life. The vast majority want abortion severely restricted to LEGITIMATE reasons only, forbid late term abortions except for medical conditions of the fetus that are incompatible with life (in other words, that child is going to die shortly before or after birth no matter what) and forbid underage girls from getting an abortion without parental notification. The vast majority do NOT want to allow a woman to kill her unwanted child just because the existence of that life is merely inconvenient for her. There is just no comparison between a few MONTHS of a person's life -with the entire life and expected life expectancy of more than 70 YEARS of someone else. A significant percentage -and still growing -don't want to allow abortion at all except to save the mother's life. And guess what? Any OB-GYN will tell you, the time the mother's life is most likely in danger is during the last trimester. And it is NEVER necessary to deliberately KILL her baby in order to save the mother's life. That's the stuff of Hollywood movies but not reality. It may be necessary to deliver it early in which case the child may just be too premature to survive and then later dies. But no OB-GYN ever deliberately kills a woman's wanted fetus on the grounds it is necessary to save her life -not ever. So the notion an abortion is ever required to SAVE a woman's life is just phony in the first place. A woman's doctor will do all he/she can to save its life as well as her own. There really isn't any situation where one or the other MUST be killed so that the other may survive. There are just situations where in spite of the best efforts - one of them didn't survive.

The anti-abortion position by the majority is an odd position if having a court ram unwanted laws down the throats of people would simply settle these kinds of issues once and for all time. But they don't -or abortion wouldn't still be a hot political issue more than three decades later. Get it through your head on this one -because WE THE PEOPLE have the right to settle this issue through our elected representatives. NOT through some court of an elite 9 people who can never be held accountable -simply ramming it down the throats of MILLIONS. No matter where you stand on this particular issue, having an elite few impose their will on the vast majority of MILLIONS -is NEVER FREEDOM!

Maybe you figure it covers up the stink of what is really being done to that child by calling it just a "choice". But it is the very real slaughter of a very real human life and simply using a euphamism for that -like "choice" - isn't fooling the majority about the true nature of the act whatsoever.

Let's be honest on this one. Everyone agrees that a MAN'S choice all comes before he engages in sex because his choice never involves a "right" to kill off his unwanted children after the fact. Once he completes the act, he has no more "choice". Did you know that now it isn't the law forcing men into unwanted parenthood but a specific woman -that homicide became the number one cause of death for a pregnant woman? Almost always murdered by the father of her unborn child -who knows good and well exactly who is forcing him into unwanted parenthood. Not the law -but a specific woman. With more men than was true prior to legalized abortion taking their rage about unwanted parenthood out on the specific woman he sees as the real problem. And ends up killing both the unborn child and its mother. Some equality, huh? What a waste of lives and that garbage heap of dead and wasted lives just goes on and on and on.

A woman's CHOICE comes before engaging in the sex act. Her CHOICE -if she doesn't want to risk pregnancy is the very same ones available to a man before the sex act. It is to either use a reliable form of birth control (and please, no more bullshit excuses why a woman doesn't do that in this day and age if she REALLY didn't want to risk pregnancy) or forgo the sex act until she is able to reliably prevent pregnancy -or go ahead and engage in sex anyway and risk pregnancy. And here is the real mind blowing part of that. That is the EXACT same choice a man had before 1973 and the same choices he has to this day -it has never changed. The EXACT same choice a woman had as well prior to 1973. And THAT is REAL equality in my book. I am not some man-hating harridan. There is no equality in a law that gives women the POWER to force unwanted parenthood on men against their will when no woman may be forced to unwanted parenthood herself. No equality when only one sex has the legal means to avoid responsibility and the other cannot. There is no equality with laws that gives women the POWER to slaughter a man's child even when he desperately wants that child when neither the child nor his father has any legal recourse whatsoever. One has become the sexual inferior of a woman and a second class citizen - and the other is nothing but her trash.

Since Roe v. Wade in 1973, more than 45 MILLION have been killed. If you had to look at the results of that slaughter -it would make you puke. But since it takes place out of line of your sight -you simply tell yourself that the numbers of dead and the never ending slaughter of ever more thrown on top of that heap - just doesn't matter. The vast majority in this country do not consider a woman's convenience to be a legitimate reason to allow the murder of her unborn child -yet the vast majority of the 45,000,000 dead were killed for the most insignificant, trivial and superficial reasons possible for killing their child. Abortion devalues and cheapens ALL human life.


Sorry but there is NO way I would ever agree that a woman's CONVENIENCE is more important and comes before the right of her child to KEEP ITS LIFE. No one ever owns the life of another. I never owned my children's lives at any point, you don't either - and neither does any woman. Everyone -and that includes women -ONLY own their own life and no one else's life.

If she doesn't want to bring a new life into existence -her CHOICE not to do so must come BEFORE she actually brings one into existence! Not after.

 

[Father Time]

To suggest that killing a fetus at early stages is on par with killing a citizen, a born person is stupid. It says that thoughts, feelings, self-awareness, etc., things born people posses but fetuses don't are worthless and the only thing that gives human life value is the fact that it possesses the DNA to be called human.

 

[frazzledgear]

and to get a abortion you have to at least 2-3 months this is what that baby would look like

is this not a baby i see a head an a eye does this baby have a chance does this baby have voice

does this look like a clump of cells to you... I dont think so im call out on its up to the woman and it is but shouldnt this baby have voice what would he/she say and would it matter http://www.realtruth.org/images/abortion_dev_fetus-ashz-090310.jpg

You just "proved" to the morally challenged (I can be be sensitively PC too) that anyone who is no less human than you are -but doesn't yet look like a mature adult human being like you do RIGHT NOW TODAY after years of being allowed to mature -can be legitimately murdered. This is a moral victory for you somehow? I don't get it. Are you under the impression you just skipped this stage of development and you only had the "right" to exist once reaching maturity or what? All those OTHER nasty human beings who haven't been given that same time to mature can be legitimately murdered at the WHIM of someone who doesn't own that life - or what? I don't get it, sorry. Just at which point of YOUR development were you a legitimate target for murder and when were you not? At no point in MY development was I a legitimate murder victim since I was always the sole owner of MY life. But maybe you weren't. But when did someone else own your life and when did you take ownership of it? When you looked more like a mature adult and less like an immature human life or what? You do realize that newborns do not look like full grown, mature adults either. But according to your own arbitrary cutoff that appearance is what determines someone's humanity -that still makes them legimate targets for murder for anyone who thinks only full grown mature adults have a "right" to even live.

 

[frazzledgear]

You folks who don't want to give women a choice should go live in a communist country, you'd feel more at home having no choice yourselves on anything.

I'm glad that you have the choice to kill your own children.

With logic like that, it's no wonder the US is in such bad shape, with commies like you trying to run things and tell everyone how to live.

Truly ignorant of history, aren't you? Might want to check up on whether communist countries are more likely to have legalized abortion or other systems of government - and stop repeating this silly prattle. Sorry, but communists do not value human life -no matter what their stage of maturity.

So you might want to quit pretending that those who think the stage of maturity of a human being is irrelevant to whether someone has a "right" to keep their life or not -somehow represents a communist belief in any way. (But you certainly confirm that the US public school system is a total disgrace.) Communists believe the individual is fungible. It is the underlying principle of communism -which cannot even work without that belief. Don't know what "fungible" means? Look it up. Not a term most Americans believe in -except for people like YOU who think the value of a human life is based on their stage of maturity. But our founders at no time believed any such thing.

That means YOU have far more in common with communists than the anti-abortionists you rail against. I am afraid of people like you. All because I would die to protect the REAL rights of people like you who simply disagree with me -but have no reason whatsoever and no example in all of mankind's history to believe you would give your own life to defend me, defend my right to disagree with you -or defend any true principles of freedom at all. Certainly have no reason to beieve that any liberal would defend with their life my right to disagree with the left. If you believe the only time to defend the REAL rights of others is IF and ONLY if they happen to agree with you -then you don't believe in real freedom at all but the coercion of the state to IMPOSE and FORCE its will on the majority against their will. And that let's you sleep how.....?

Ignorance is NOT bliss since it really means it is deadly for everyone else.

 

[frazzledgear]

frazzledgear, to be honest, i really only skimmed that- but wow... you should post more often

You kidding me?

Going on and on about the horrors of killing human life just because you find them inconvenient than one post explaining her being ok with the death penalty.

Most jaw dropping hypocrisy I've ever seen.

Also a very blatant showing of Godwin's law.

Occasionally I am confronted with mental midgets and we must all be kind when facing the morally handicapped. They exist in all walks of life. Since I already explained the difference between those guilty of nothing but existing and those who have chosen to prey on other humans, you now have the obligation to explain why ANY society should tolerate the existence of those who prey on other human beings for their entertainment while allowing the slaughter of totally innocent humans guilty of nothing but existing. How dare you suggest that people who agree with me in this assesment are somehow "wrong" while people like YOU who would inflict the most dangerous and morally bankrupt on EVERYONE represent a morally "superior" level. What a sick joke -but I'm all ears. Please explain the exact nature of that "hypocrisy" for us all, would you? But it first requires a detailed explanation about how the real value of a human life is determined by their stage of maturity. I am breathless with anticipation.

 

[Father Time]

"Certainly have no reason to beieve that any liberal would defend with their life my right to disagree with the left."

Except there are self-described liberals in the military,

Military Times Polls

and this took me about five seconds worth of research.

 

[Father Time]

frazzledgear, to be honest, i really only skimmed that- but wow... you should post more often

You kidding me?

Going on and on about the horrors of killing human life just because you find them inconvenient than one post explaining her being ok with the death penalty.

Most jaw dropping hypocrisy I've ever seen.

Also a very blatant showing of Godwin's law.

Occasionally I am confronted with mental midgets and we must all be kind when facing the morally handicapped. They exist in all walks of life. Since I already explained the difference between those guilty of nothing but existing and those who have chosen to prey on other humans, you now have the obligation to explain why ANY society should tolerate the existence of those who prey on other human beings for their entertainment while allowing the slaughter of totally innocent humans guilty of nothing but existing. How dare you suggest that people who agree with me in this assesment are somehow "wrong" while people like YOU who would inflict the most dangerous and morally bankrupt on EVERYONE represent a morally "superior" level. What a sick joke -but I'm all ears. Please explain the exact nature of that "hypocrisy" for us all, would you? But it first requires a detailed explanation about how the real value of a human life is determined by their stage of maturity. I am breathless with anticipation.

Please show me where I have given support for abortion, I'm dying with anticipation.

I didn't say all pro-lifers were hypocrites I said you were a hypocrite, because you were going on in big walls of text that taking a human life without good reason is wrong. Yet this is exactly what the death penalty is. If you agree with the death penalty than you must agree that it is ok to kill a human being that is of no threat. And yet...

Also you're a hypocrite for taking a holier than though stance and yet lambasting me because you thought that I thought of myself as morally superior.

In fact in the same sentence you bashed me for calling you morally wrong you called me morally bankrupt, also in the first sentence you call me morally handicapped.

 

[We Are They]

Fozziebear, I won't post a quote of your long repetitive schpeel, but I think you're completely confused with the notion of freedom of choice. It doesn't mean that you somehow can gather up a majority of people and vote to take away other people freedom of choice, because what's to stop this mob of voting blacks back into slavery, just to name one example.
If you don't want to support abortion fine, but what gives you the right to tell everyone else what to do? I'll tell you, it's because you're a moral communist, where everyone should live their lives by your rules.
It's not a law shoved down your throat either, because nobody's forcing you to do anything against your will, if you don't accept abortion, fine, nobody's going to force you to do it. But to think that your position is the right one and everyone should follow you is arrogant, condescending and narrow minded.
In some ways, yes the US hasn't been truly a free country for your 197 years before 1973, remember the slaves?
Plus, you're all hypocrites, the US military budget is more than the rest of the world COMBINED. And you're already in 2 countries killing people. And don't forget the death penalty.
Mental midget indeed!
Me, I'm for choice, you do what you want, and I'll do what I want. You're on the pro-no choice side, just like a good communist.

 

[Ravi]

I'm for choice, you're for no choice. You want everyone to live by your code of ethics, you're a moral communist. Good thing we live in a free country still.

It has already been shown that you, too, wish to force others to act according to your own morality on this very issue. If you ever stop trolling and remove your head from where you have wedged it, perhaps you'll learn something

Who is forcing you to abort?

 

[JW Frogen]

I was a fetus once. So where you.

This is perhaps the greatest argument for abortion.

And for life, kill if you must, but admit what you are doing.

 

[DamnYankee]

As the OP of this thread, I ask that everyone remain civil and shy away from using personal attacks on one another to make your point.

Fine.... Don't (any of) you ever get tired of discussing issues with no apparent resolution?

 

[renoite]

As the OP of this thread, I ask that everyone remain civil and shy away from using personal attacks on one another to make your point.

Fine.... Don't (any of) you ever get tired of discussing issues with no apparent resolution?

yes I do.........

 

[We Are They]

Fine.... Don't (any of) you ever get tired of discussing issues with no apparent resolution?

It's already been resolved, abortion is legal, forcing people to have babies is not.
Moral communists just can't deal with it.

 

[renoite]

and to get a abortion you have to at least 2-3 months this is what that baby would look like

is this not a baby i see a head an a eye does this baby have a chance does this baby have voice

does this look like a clump of cells to you... I dont think so im call out on its up to the woman and it is but shouldnt this baby have voice what would he/she say and would it matter http://www.realtruth.org/images/abortion_dev_fetus-ashz-090310.jpg

You just "proved" to the morally challenged (I can be be sensitively PC too) that anyone who is no less human than you are -but doesn't yet look like a mature adult human being like you do RIGHT NOW TODAY after years of being allowed to mature -can be legitimately murdered. This is a moral victory for you somehow? I don't get it. Are you under the impression you just skipped this stage of development and you only had the "right" to exist once reaching maturity or what? All those OTHER nasty human beings who haven't been given that same time to mature can be legitimately murdered at the WHIM of someone who doesn't own that life - or what? I don't get it, sorry. Just at which point of YOUR development were you a legitimate target for murder and when were you not? At no point in MY development was I a legitimate murder victim since I was always the sole owner of MY life. But maybe you weren't. But when did someone else own your life and when did you take ownership of it? When you looked more like a mature adult and less like an immature human life or what? You do realize that newborns do not look like full grown, mature adults either. But according to your own arbitrary cutoff that appearance is what determines someone's humanity -that still makes them legimate targets for murder for anyone who thinks only full grown mature adults have a "right" to even live.

I THINK EVERY HUMAN even a unborn child has the very to live but some people take that right away from that child.... thats my point and the pictures I've posted of those babiess have fingers toes a mouth ears eyes why not give that baby life instead of takeing it way..... maybe its just me in my heart i could never say i want a abortion... my good friend at 19 had a baby she and her other half where not ready for this baby but took it on anyway no thought of harming that child... BUT TO LOVE HER TO HOLD HER AND WACH HER GROW she is in my avtar pic with me..... she has a great laugh brights up your day she is almsot 2 now... Im sure that little girl is happy that mommy didnt abort her...

 

[renoite]

Fine.... Don't (any of) you ever get tired of discussing issues with no apparent resolution?

It's already been resolved, abortion is legal, forcing people to have babies is not.
Moral communists just can't deal with it.

\

if you dont want babies take brith controll for one or get your tubes tied for two.... theres ways around not haveing babies what I dont agree with is haveing sex wich everyone knows may cause to to get pg. so dont have sex wait till you can get something done before haveing sex that may cause you to get pg. thats what you dont get.... its easy

no sex no babie = no need for abortions...........

but humans love sex so they get pg... so its the babies fault for human race women and men having sex having fun then ohhh here comes baby no no baby cause mommy anit ready or i never wanted kids im to young

well if you never wanted kids get something done before hand
if your to young then your to young to have sex

just say no close your legs its easy if its easy to abort a unborn child then its easy enough to close your legs