Zone1 The abortion debate - Understanding Both Sides

[Couchpotato]

I personally don't believe late-term abortions should be permitted other than to prevent a serious medical emergency. My main objection to the pro-life position is the fact that so many conservatives claim to be so concerned about the life of embryos and fetuses in the wombs of strangers but then support politicians that defund social programs that help single mothers raise their children. Food, housing, healthcare, job training, daycare, school lunch programs, school supplies, clothing..etc. These supposed defenders of life (i.e. "pro-life"), flippantly dismiss the needs of single mothers and their babies, yet are incredibly concerned about embryos and fetuses. No no..If you're going to genuinely be pro-life, then be pro-life, not just in the womb, but outside of the womb as well. Don't just defend and support the lives of embryos and fetuses, while completely disregarding the needs of single mothers and their children. That's hypocrisy. Many of these "pro-life" people claim to be disciples of Jesus Christ, yet they support government policies that hurt single mothers and their children.


If you're going to be pro-life, be pro-life both inside the womb and outside of it. Don't just be a champion and defender of fetuses, also be a champion and defender of single mothers and their babies. Not just embryos and fetuses.

You dont have to support the government subsidization of a person's entire life just because you don't think murdering them is ok. Thats seriously faulty logic. Whether I support cradle to grave welfare/government assistance or even something as simple as food stamps or WIC has nothing to do with my stance on whether killing an innocent human being is ok or not. Call me crazy but murder is always bad. You are also painting with an extremely broad brush. Your stance is that basically everyone who is pro life is anti single mother and wants nothing to do with them once the baby is born. And using that line of thinking you are trying to justify the killing of these children based on the potential suffering or hardship they and or their mothers might have to endure. Even if your premise is true that all prolife people are anti single mother (which is complete and utter BS) it hardly justifies your solution.

 

[Unkotare]

When an organisms cells can and do divide that organisms alive. When they no longer do, it is not living. That organism is a small dog is still a dog just like an old dog if that organism is a small tree it’s still a tree a younger human is still human therefore we’re talking about human life.

 

[ninja007]

I understand both sides, honestly.
I am with Cannon. I think abortion is horrendous but i think the govt forcing gestation is worse. Losing bodily autonomy is tyranny.

im sure you stood with the unjabbed then, right?

 

[CarsomyrPlusSix]

My main objection to the pro-life position is the fact that so many conservatives claim to be so concerned about the life of embryos and fetuses in the wombs of strangers but then support politicians that defund social programs

So you don't HAVE a reasonable objection, as you are conflating two disparate issues.

If you're going to be pro-life, be pro-life both inside the womb and outside of it. Don't just be a champion and defender of fetuses, also be a champion and defender of single mothers and their babies. Not just embryos and fetuses.

It is already illegal to attack and kill single mothers. It is already illegal to attack and kill babies.

It is about as illegal as anything can get - life in prison or execution. To be fair, I think those should be the only sentences available for any murder, so some jurisdictions go much softer than that.

Here, let me make you a promise. I definitely want it to be JUST as illegal to kill any human being in cold blooded aggression regardless of their age. There you go - I am officially "pro-life both inside the womb and outside of it."

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Except losing your job if you were a Government employee right?

And...? Get a better job. Look down, see the bootstraps?

 

[Couchpotato]

And...? Get a better job. Look down, see the bootstraps?

yeah that's the same thing. I promise.

Dope.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

yeah that's the same thing. I promise.

Dope.

Sorry you have had such a hard time finding another job. Have you tried pulling on your bootstraps?

 

[Couchpotato]

Sorry you have had such a hard time finding another job. Have you tried pulling on your bootstraps?

Did I say I lost my job due to the pandemic? See I took the advice your giving years ago and retired before I turned 50.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Did I say I lost my job due to the pandemic? See I took the advice your giving years ago and retired before I turned 50.

Oh, you are expressing empathy for those lost their jobs due to refusal to get vaccinated. Of course, that's horseshit, and you are just using them to try to score a point in your cult rhetoric.

You would turn on any of them in a heartbeat, if you sensed they were part of the deep state commie nazi plot against your orange lard and master.

 

[Couchpotato]

Oh, you are expressing empathy for those lost their jobs due to refusal to get vaccinated. Of course, that's horseshit, and you are just using them to try to score a point in your cult rhetoric.

You would turn on any of them in a heartbeat, if you sensed they were part of the deep state commie nazi plot against your orange lard and master.

Believe whatever you want to believe cowboy.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Believe whatever you want to believe cowboy.

Believe whatever you want to believe cowboy.

As usual, I will believe what the evidence shows.

 

[Monk-Eye]

" Establishment Violating Fanatics Fearful Of Mortality Seek Conception Uniform Fetish To Prove They Will Wake Up From A Dirt Nap "

* Outlawing Abortions Post 24 Weeks At State Level Is Roe V Wade *

The 15 week thing seems like a good compromise, but the left refuses to compromise on just about everything.

Add in an exception for the life of the mother after, and it meets my moral requirements.

Honestly after 24 weeks or so doing a C-section to live deliver the baby is probably easier than aborting it.

The 15 week limit accounts for at least 98% of abortions and accounts for those abortions traditionally understood as occurring without a requirement for justification .

If post 15 weeks abortions allow justification for fetal abnormalities , or physical health or safety of the mother , to include not being able to have children in the future , as is similar with european laws , there would likely be less contention .

Unfortunately , c-section before 39 weeks is highly not recommended due to its complications and neither is induced labor .

The reason for second trimester and later term abortions - after 22 weeks is for congenital and high risk health problems , and because abortion is the safer alternative to induced delivery .

The mythical psychopath wandering off the street to kill a late term fetus for the homicidal thrill is categorical bullshit concocted by sanctimonious traitors to us constitution , most of which are suffering from a mental disorder of egocentric myopia for anthropocentrism .

The laws are not standardized and the correct , non seditious , method of over turning Roe v Wade was / is to rule that a state could not outlaw abortion , which would have force federal legislators to pass a constitutional amendment by 2/3 majority or codify it by some other method .

As Roe V Wade ruled that states could proscribe - outlaw abortion in 3rd trimester - post 24 weeks - the wisest and best option was already provided without a constitutional amendment , however sanctimonious traitors to us constitution subverted the ruling and justifiably deserve to be prosecuted .

 

[CarsomyrPlusSix]

Oh, you are expressing empathy for those lost their jobs due to refusal to get vaccinated. Of course, that's horseshit, and you are just using them to try to score a point in your cult rhetoric.

You would turn on any of them in a heartbeat, if you sensed they were part of the deep state commie nazi plot against your orange lard and master.

Not be a stick in the mud, but uhh, “Clean Debate Zone?”

Lot of mudslinging there, chief.

 

[CarsomyrPlusSix]

the correct , non seditious , method of over turning Roe v Wade was / is to rule that a state could not outlaw abortion

That is literally what Roe does. Did. It ruled that states could not outlaw abortion.

Thankfully it has been overturned. Correctly.

which would have force federal legislators to pass a constitutional amendment by 2/3 majority or codify it by some other method

I am all for an amendment to ban this horrible practice but that is only necessary for banning it nationwide. Or, if you want to make the United States a nightmare and disgrace the Constitution, the opposite, making it legal nationwide.

 

[Flopper]

The 15 week thing seems like a good compromise, but the left refuses to compromise on just about everything.

Add in an exception for the life of the mother after, and it meets my moral requirements.

Honestly after 24 weeks or so doing a C-section to live deliver the baby is probably easier than aborting it.

To my knowledge what is missing in all abortion laws is the right to petition for an exception. I can petition the county that my tax levy is unfair but my daughter carrying a deformed child that has no chance of survival would be forced by the law to carry it to term so it can undergo a slow agonizing death. You say that's rare, and yes it is. A 12 year old child has become pregnant and the law says this child must carry to term and become a mother. Yeah, I know that's rare too. And there's a teenager that says see was raped but without evidence she will be force to bear the rapist child. And of course that's rare. There are many medical conditions a woman can have that makes pregnancy risky, high uncontrollable blood pressure, diabetes, kidney disease, Thyroid Disease, ect... In some states the abortion law requires that the woman be in immediate danger to get an abortion.

There should be the right to petition. Even murders have that right.

 

[Flopper]

Then you should be OK with the 15 week thing, as it splits the baby so to speak.

The 15 week rule is not bad but there needs to be exceptions. No child should be forced to bear children. No rape victim should be forced to bear the rapist child. And no women should be forced to carry a fetus to term if it puts her life at high risk. No woman should be forced to carry a fetus to term if the child has no chance of survival.

These conditions can put the woman past the 15 week rule.

 

[Flopper]

Forced gestation?

With modern birth control there aren't many instances of "forced gestation"

Or are you saying all women aren't responsible enough to figure this out beforehand?

Various studies have shown that pill in use by the public is at best 90% effective. The diaphragm with spermicide is about 93%. The rhythm or calendar method is about 78% effective. The variation in use of condoms makes it impossible to determine effectiveness. I think it's safe to say that contraception effectiveness 90% or less. When you consider the number of couples having intercourse everyday and 6 to 7 million resulting pregnancies there are a lot of untended pregnancies among couples who use birth control. With 35% of those untended pregnancies occurring in states with abortion laws, tens of thousands of women are going to be required by the state to give birth to unwanted children.