The 2015 Israeli legislative (Knesset) election thread

[Coyote]

And another analysis...

Analysis The country nods to Benjamin Netanyahu who now needs to nod to Obama - Israel Elections - Jerusalem Post

He is an imperfect leader, Benjamin Netanyahu. He has faults and foibles that have been laid bare in great abundance over the nine years – spread over three noncontiguous terms – that he has been in power.

Yet on Tuesday, the country went to the polls and, for the fourth time, apparently crowned him again as prime minister.

It wasn’t pretty, it wasn’t convincing, it wasn’t done wholeheartedly, but it was done. The reign of “King Bibi,” despite the legion of naysayers both in Israel and around the world, has not yet come to an end.

Why? Why has a man who has not made himself beloved of his people, even of his own party supporters, been given another shot? How has a man who many leaders in the free world hoped would be pushed off Israel’s stage managed to keep standing for another day? How? Because most of the country – meaning those who voted for the Likud and the other parties that can be grouped in the center-right bloc, namely, Bayit Yehudi, Yisrael Beytenu, Shas, United Torah Judaism, Yahad, and, we’ll see, Kulanu – agrees with his basic message: the region is dangerous; Iran is a threat; the Palestinians are not really interested in peace; Israel needs a leader who will stand his ground.

They may not love him personally, they may dislike his wife, they may feel that he is cut off from their problems, but they believe that he will stand his ground.

More than anything else – more than housing prices or Iran – this election was a referendum on Netanyahu. And the verdict: the country wants more. Maybe not more of Netanyahu the man, but at least of what Netanyahu represents: standing tall, hanging tough.

To understand the verdict, it is necessary to understand the changes that have swept over this country since the second intifada in 2000, changes brought about by terrorism and rockets and an unstable region that has made everyone feel insecure. And that insecurity trumps all. To understand Israel is to understand that real, genuine sense of insecurity.

Some mimicked Netanyahu when, following the comptroller’s damning report last month about how he dealt with the housing crisis, he tweeted that “when we talk about the price of housing, about the cost of living, I don’t forget life itself for a single moment. The greatest challenge in our lives is currently Iran’s bid to acquire nuclear weapons.”

That message – first life, first security, then the price of living – resonated with the public. It may be mocked abroad, but it resonates here where the voters actually live, and where the insecurity is real, and not, as some of Netanyahu’s critics would maintain, as just more fear and paranoia that he is trying to sow.

And now, for Netanyahu, the hard work begins.

And that hard work, following three months of endless mudslinging, will include not only trying to cobble together a coalition out of the jigsaw puzzle the electorate created on Tuesday, not only mending fences inside the country, but also reengaging with a world that for the last two months has – more or less – let us stew in our own campaign juices.

As we’ve been preoccupied with Sara Netanyahu’s bottle deposits, and Meni Naftali’s antics, and campaign ads seemingly equating public workers with Hamas, and whether it’s primitive to kiss a mezuza or go to the graves of righteous rabbis, the world has for the most part stood back.

Oh, yes, there was that Iran speech thing in Congress, but that was of Netanyahu’s own making.

Sure, there were subtle and less subtle attempts to influence our vote – the subtle attempts coming from the White House, which took advantage of the opening Netanyahu gave it with the Congress speech and did not miss an opportunity to knock Netanyahu, and the less subtle ones in the form of foreign money to support NGOs supporting the Left.

But on the big diplomatic marquee issues, the world gave Israel a break for the last two months. More than that, the Europeans pressed Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas not to take high-profile diplomatic steps against Israel, so as not to shore up support for Netanyahu.

Since January 1 there have been no leaks of new sanctions coming out of the EU, no news of a new French/Palestinian resolution at the UN Security Council, no new plans for new peace initiatives.

Everyone was waiting for the election.

 

[aris2chat]

Here's an interesting update - and another possible flip flop for Bibi?

Bennett to Benjamin Netanyahu No coalition without pledge to rule out Palestinian state - Israel News - Jerusalem Post

Israel does not want to bend over backward for the palestinians. If the palestinians want a state it will not be on their terms but on Israel's.
Basically they are fed up with the palestinians. They want to move on with their lives and concentrate on the need of the country and the Israeli people. Country and protection first. The palestinians don't have their sh!t together so there is no use trying to get them to the table till they do. Right now the people or the PA is not ready for a state. Forget gaza.
Perhaps things will change down the road, but that will likely not come under Netanyahu unless the palestinians can prove themselves. I'm sure if they have something to say the PM will listen but the life of Israel will not stop waiting in anticipation. The palestinians are not the most serious issue right now.
Israel is not ignoring the palestinians. 1,000 tons of cement, the release of a hamas member, trade, permitting those over 50 to come and go without per-autorized passes.... There will still be relations, but the Israeli world will not revolve around the palestinians or their desire for a state.
The issue of a palestinian state can be reexamined in a few years, just not today.

 

[Coyote]

Here's an interesting update - and another possible flip flop for Bibi?

Bennett to Benjamin Netanyahu No coalition without pledge to rule out Palestinian state - Israel News - Jerusalem Post

Israel does not want to bend over backward for the palestinians. If the palestinians want a state it will not be on their terms but on Israel's.
Basically they are fed up with the palestinians. They want to move on with their lives and concentrate on the need of the country and the Israeli people. Country and protection first. The palestinians don't have their sh!t together so there is no use trying to get them to the table till they do. Right now the people or the PA is not ready for a state. Forget gaza.
Perhaps things will change down the road, but that will likely not come under Netanyahu unless the palestinians can prove themselves. I'm sure if they have something to say the PM will listen but the life of Israel will not stop waiting in anticipation. The palestinians are not the most serious issue right now.
Israel is not ignoring the palestinians. 1,000 tons of cement, the release of a hamas member, trade, permitting those over 50 to come and go without per-autorized passes.... There will still be relations, but the Israeli world will not revolve around the palestinians or their desire for a state.
The issue of a palestinian state can be reexamined in a few years, just not today.

I disagree. The issue of a Palestinian state will be put on the back burner because the goal posts for agreeing to it will be continuously moved and, because Israel does not truly want to give up any of the land under the Occupation and if they keep building settlements they will eventually make a two-state option unviable.

The Palestinians are subject to military law - even their children. They have few rights and those rights are subject to Israel's mood. The Israeli world may not revolve around the Palestinians or their desire for a state, but the very flippedness of that remark is reminiscent of those who used to say negros should be happy that they have clothes and food and not complain about Jim Crowe etc. It may not matter to Israeli's, but it mattes to people who live under their occupation.

 

[aris2chat]

Here's an interesting update - and another possible flip flop for Bibi?

Bennett to Benjamin Netanyahu No coalition without pledge to rule out Palestinian state - Israel News - Jerusalem Post

Israel does not want to bend over backward for the palestinians. If the palestinians want a state it will not be on their terms but on Israel's.
Basically they are fed up with the palestinians. They want to move on with their lives and concentrate on the need of the country and the Israeli people. Country and protection first. The palestinians don't have their sh!t together so there is no use trying to get them to the table till they do. Right now the people or the PA is not ready for a state. Forget gaza.
Perhaps things will change down the road, but that will likely not come under Netanyahu unless the palestinians can prove themselves. I'm sure if they have something to say the PM will listen but the life of Israel will not stop waiting in anticipation. The palestinians are not the most serious issue right now.
Israel is not ignoring the palestinians. 1,000 tons of cement, the release of a hamas member, trade, permitting those over 50 to come and go without per-autorized passes.... There will still be relations, but the Israeli world will not revolve around the palestinians or their desire for a state.
The issue of a palestinian state can be reexamined in a few years, just not today.

I disagree. The issue of a Palestinian state will be put on the back burner because the goal posts for agreeing to it will be continuously moved and, because Israel does not truly want to give up any of the land under the Occupation and if they keep building settlements they will eventually make a two-state option unviable.

The Palestinians are subject to military law - even their children. They have few rights and those rights are subject to Israel's mood. The Israeli world may not revolve around the Palestinians or their desire for a state, but the very flippedness of that remark is reminiscent of those who used to say negros should be happy that they have clothes and food and not complain about Jim Crowe etc. It may not matter to Israeli's, but it mattes to people who live under their occupation.

Likud or ZU, the issue of settlements in zone C will not stop waiting for the PA to come back to the table. Israel will not surrender the high ground or their security.
It has been the palestinians that have been unwilling to come to a deal. Even the arab states can't give them a big enough kick in the pants to get them to move forward. Israel will not hold it's collective breath waiting for the palestinians. There is no point. The issue of a palestinian state will not take precedent any more.

 

[Coyote]

Here's an interesting update - and another possible flip flop for Bibi?

Bennett to Benjamin Netanyahu No coalition without pledge to rule out Palestinian state - Israel News - Jerusalem Post

Israel does not want to bend over backward for the palestinians. If the palestinians want a state it will not be on their terms but on Israel's.
Basically they are fed up with the palestinians. They want to move on with their lives and concentrate on the need of the country and the Israeli people. Country and protection first. The palestinians don't have their sh!t together so there is no use trying to get them to the table till they do. Right now the people or the PA is not ready for a state. Forget gaza.
Perhaps things will change down the road, but that will likely not come under Netanyahu unless the palestinians can prove themselves. I'm sure if they have something to say the PM will listen but the life of Israel will not stop waiting in anticipation. The palestinians are not the most serious issue right now.
Israel is not ignoring the palestinians. 1,000 tons of cement, the release of a hamas member, trade, permitting those over 50 to come and go without per-autorized passes.... There will still be relations, but the Israeli world will not revolve around the palestinians or their desire for a state.
The issue of a palestinian state can be reexamined in a few years, just not today.

I disagree. The issue of a Palestinian state will be put on the back burner because the goal posts for agreeing to it will be continuously moved and, because Israel does not truly want to give up any of the land under the Occupation and if they keep building settlements they will eventually make a two-state option unviable.

The Palestinians are subject to military law - even their children. They have few rights and those rights are subject to Israel's mood. The Israeli world may not revolve around the Palestinians or their desire for a state, but the very flippedness of that remark is reminiscent of those who used to say negros should be happy that they have clothes and food and not complain about Jim Crowe etc. It may not matter to Israeli's, but it mattes to people who live under their occupation.

Likud or ZU, the issue of settlements in zone C will not stop waiting for the PA to come back to the table. Israel will not surrender the high ground or their security.
It has been the palestinians that have been unwilling to come to a deal. Even the arab states can't give them a big enough kick in the pants to get them to move forward. Israel will not hold it's collective breath waiting for the palestinians. There is no point. The issue of a palestinian state will not take precedent any more.

It may have to if Israel starts losing the support of their allies over their intransigence in resolving this.

 

[Coyote]

The Palestinians are people too. No matter how hard you "pro-Israeli's" try to make them less than.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Here's an interesting update - and another possible flip flop for Bibi?

Bennett to Benjamin Netanyahu No coalition without pledge to rule out Palestinian state - Israel News - Jerusalem Post

Israel does not want to bend over backward for the palestinians. If the palestinians want a state it will not be on their terms but on Israel's.
Basically they are fed up with the palestinians. They want to move on with their lives and concentrate on the need of the country and the Israeli people. Country and protection first. The palestinians don't have their sh!t together so there is no use trying to get them to the table till they do. Right now the people or the PA is not ready for a state. Forget gaza.
Perhaps things will change down the road, but that will likely not come under Netanyahu unless the palestinians can prove themselves. I'm sure if they have something to say the PM will listen but the life of Israel will not stop waiting in anticipation. The palestinians are not the most serious issue right now.
Israel is not ignoring the palestinians. 1,000 tons of cement, the release of a hamas member, trade, permitting those over 50 to come and go without per-autorized passes.... There will still be relations, but the Israeli world will not revolve around the palestinians or their desire for a state.
The issue of a palestinian state can be reexamined in a few years, just not today.

I disagree. The issue of a Palestinian state will be put on the back burner because the goal posts for agreeing to it will be continuously moved and, because Israel does not truly want to give up any of the land under the Occupation and if they keep building settlements they will eventually make a two-state option unviable.

The Palestinians are subject to military law - even their children. They have few rights and those rights are subject to Israel's mood. The Israeli world may not revolve around the Palestinians or their desire for a state, but the very flippedness of that remark is reminiscent of those who used to say negros should be happy that they have clothes and food and not complain about Jim Crowe etc. It may not matter to Israeli's, but it mattes to people who live under their occupation.

Likud or ZU, the issue of settlements in zone C will not stop waiting for the PA to come back to the table. Israel will not surrender the high ground or their security.
It has been the palestinians that have been unwilling to come to a deal. Even the arab states can't give them a big enough kick in the pants to get them to move forward. Israel will not hold it's collective breath waiting for the palestinians. There is no point. The issue of a palestinian state will not take precedent any more.

A "deal" is something you get from a used car salesman.

They are not interested in "a state" on Israel's terms. They are not interested in more fake peace talks.

They are just pushing for their rights. The rest will follow.

 

[Mindful]

In the US we have regions that tend to be red (conservative) and blue (liberal) with urban areas predictably more liberal. How does that play out in Israel?

Also....mostly, when we hear the news, the issues on Israel that get reported are national security, peace process, Iran. What are the important domestic issues playing out in this election?

Affordable rents? Municipal rubbish collection? Do the buses run on time? Gay Pride marches? Should El Al fly on Saturdays?

 

[Mindful]

The Palestinians are people too. No matter how hard you "pro-Israeli's" try to make them less than.

You should know better than to come out with moralising patronising crap like that.

 

[Mindful]

Can the Israeli Left Ever Win Again?
Not unless it gets rid of some very bad ideas.

In the winter of 1973, having barely survived a coordinated Arab attack, Israel set out to understand why it had it had missed the many signs pointing toward pending Egyptian aggression. The answer it came up with was long and complicated, but it can be summarized in a single word that every Israeli knows well: Ha’Konseptsya, or the Concept. Israel’s intelligence didn’t see the war coming because of the (mis)conception that Egypt would never risk war unless it had long-range missiles that could hit targets deep inside the Jewish State. The Friday before the war broke out, Israel Defense Forces intelligence officers compiled a document with 39 clauses, each pointing to a different piece of evidence for why an Egyptian invasion was only a matter of time. Their commanding officer, faithful to the Concept, added a 40th and final clause that argued that all evidence aside, the likelihood of war was minuscule. Less than 24 hours later, Egyptian and Syrian planes launched more than 750 sorties against Israeli targets in the north and in the south. Ha’Konseptsya was proven dead wrong.

What the Israeli left experienced this week in light of Benjamin Netanyahu’s electoral triumph wasn’t merely a political setback. It was the shattering of another Concept, another firm worldview that ignored too many signs and relied too heavily on articles of faith. With Labor having delivered its most impressive showing in nearly two decades and yet still falling short, and with Meretz teetering on the brink of extinction, it may not be too much of a stretch to argue that this is the Israeli left’s darkest hour. If it is to survive, it needs to grapple with the Concept that led it astray.

Ironically, at the heart of the Concept are the very missteps liberal Israelis routinely accuse their opponents of committing: abandoning logic and analysis for dogma, magical thinking, and tribal hatred.

Can the Israeli Left Ever Win Again Tablet Magazine

 

[Judicial review]

The Palestinians are people too. No matter how hard you "pro-Israeli's" try to make them less than.

If they are innocent people who believe in the same things like freedom and the ability for a better life of prosper then they need to show they are willing to fight for it. You don't do that by saying you will annihilate one of the most peaceful countries and people in the world in Israel. You do that by fighting to the death your own leadership that is preventing peace with a country like Israel and the USA.

We did it in 1776. Others should be willing to do it also if they find their freedoms being controlled. This is the standard we should have. Should they get to this point they will have USA and likely Israel's support.

 

[Mindful]

From that piece.

After replacing condescension with conversation, the left could then present a plan that was actionable and concrete. Instead of trying to square the circle by promising to keep the settlements and bring peace and maintain security and foster goodwill all at the same time, it should be blunt about what it really believes. If it truly believes that the settlements ought to remain under Israeli sovereignty and Jerusalem sustained as Israel’s undivided capital—as the Zionist Camp’s platform clearly states—it should abandon its tired old trope about the settlements being the sole obstacle to world peace. And if it believes that removing the settlements is a sine qua non, it should explain to Israelis just how a unilateral withdrawal from the West Bank would differ from the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza.

These are not easy questions to answer, but they are not impossible. One could argue that the more things stay the same, the more likely it’ll be that Israel’s enemies grow more desperate and radical, and that it might therefore be worthwhile to consider some sort of partial disengagement from the West Bank. Then, if more Gaza-style Palestinian violence breaks out, Israel could at least defend its uncontested borders with unequivocal ferocity and conviction. It’s still an argument many Israelis might reject, but it is, at the very least, a far more substantive one than merely saying that Bibi is bad and that religion is silly and that the threat people feel is just an imaginary monster that could be banished simply by turning on the night light of positive thinking.

Sadly, no such awakening seems to be in the cards. The latest trend among those who didn’t vote for Bibi is the viral Lo Latet social media campaign; Hebrew for “do not give,” it calls on affluent leftists to brush off charities supporting those impoverished communities that voted for Netanyahu. “The conclusion is very clear,” wrote one enraged Israeli supporting the campaign on Facebook, “things are probably not bad enough for you just yet.” You hardly need to import costly American political strategists to realize that this isn’t what change you can believe in looks like.

 

[Mindful]

The Palestinians are people too. No matter how hard you "pro-Israeli's" try to make them less than.

If they are innocent people who believe in the same things like freedom and the ability for a better life of prosper then they need to show they are willing to fight for it. You don't do that by saying you will analate one of the most peaceful countries and people in the world in Israel. You do that by fighting to the death your own leadership that is preventing peace with a country like Israel and the USA.

We did it in 1776. Others should be willing to do it also if they find their freedoms being controlled. This is the standard we should have. Should they get to this point they will hvae USA and likely Israel's support.

Sounds very nice, all well and good.Fighting for freedom and democracy, Arab style, has been done. Hence the Arab Spring in Tunisia. Well yes, they've achieved it......sort of.

Then looked what happened in Tunis a couple of days ago.

 

[Judicial review]

The Palestinians are people too. No matter how hard you "pro-Israeli's" try to make them less than.

If they are innocent people who believe in the same things like freedom and the ability for a better life of prosper then they need to show they are willing to fight for it. You don't do that by saying you will analate one of the most peaceful countries and people in the world in Israel. You do that by fighting to the death your own leadership that is preventing peace with a country like Israel and the USA.

We did it in 1776. Others should be willing to do it also if they find their freedoms being controlled. This is the standard we should have. Should they get to this point they will hvae USA and likely Israel's support.

Sounds very nice, all well and good.Fighting for freedom and democracy, Arab style, has been done. Hence the Arab Spring in Tunisia. Well yes, they've achieved it......sort of.

Then looked what happened in Tunis a couple of days ago.

There are consequences when fighting for freedom and independence from tyranny and persecution. No one ever said your lives wouldn't be threatened or killed as a result. Look at our nation how many men and women and innocent people died on our own lands when we were invaded by the British. You have to be able to persevere.

 

[Mindful]

The Palestinians are people too. No matter how hard you "pro-Israeli's" try to make them less than.

If they are innocent people who believe in the same things like freedom and the ability for a better life of prosper then they need to show they are willing to fight for it. You don't do that by saying you will analate one of the most peaceful countries and people in the world in Israel. You do that by fighting to the death your own leadership that is preventing peace with a country like Israel and the USA.

We did it in 1776. Others should be willing to do it also if they find their freedoms being controlled. This is the standard we should have. Should they get to this point they will hvae USA and likely Israel's support.

Sounds very nice, all well and good.Fighting for freedom and democracy, Arab style, has been done. Hence the Arab Spring in Tunisia. Well yes, they've achieved it......sort of.

Then looked what happened in Tunis a couple of days ago.

There are consequences when fighting for freedom and independence from tyranny and persecution. No one ever said your lives wouldn't be threatened or killed as a result. Look at our nation how many men and women and innocent people died on our own lands when we were invaded by the British. You have to be able to persevere.

What do you mean, "invaded by the British"? You WERE British.

 

[Judicial review]

The Palestinians are people too. No matter how hard you "pro-Israeli's" try to make them less than.

If they are innocent people who believe in the same things like freedom and the ability for a better life of prosper then they need to show they are willing to fight for it. You don't do that by saying you will analate one of the most peaceful countries and people in the world in Israel. You do that by fighting to the death your own leadership that is preventing peace with a country like Israel and the USA.

We did it in 1776. Others should be willing to do it also if they find their freedoms being controlled. This is the standard we should have. Should they get to this point they will hvae USA and likely Israel's support.

Sounds very nice, all well and good.Fighting for freedom and democracy, Arab style, has been done. Hence the Arab Spring in Tunisia. Well yes, they've achieved it......sort of.

Then looked what happened in Tunis a couple of days ago.

There are consequences when fighting for freedom and independence from tyranny and persecution. No one ever said your lives wouldn't be threatened or killed as a result. Look at our nation how many men and women and innocent people died on our own lands when we were invaded by the British. You have to be able to persevere.

What do you mean, "invaded by the British"? You WERE British.

British troops invaded our land by sea. That's what I was referring to. Don't play stupid.

 

[Mindful]

The Palestinians are people too. No matter how hard you "pro-Israeli's" try to make them less than.

If they are innocent people who believe in the same things like freedom and the ability for a better life of prosper then they need to show they are willing to fight for it. You don't do that by saying you will analate one of the most peaceful countries and people in the world in Israel. You do that by fighting to the death your own leadership that is preventing peace with a country like Israel and the USA.

We did it in 1776. Others should be willing to do it also if they find their freedoms being controlled. This is the standard we should have. Should they get to this point they will hvae USA and likely Israel's support.

Sounds very nice, all well and good.Fighting for freedom and democracy, Arab style, has been done. Hence the Arab Spring in Tunisia. Well yes, they've achieved it......sort of.

Then looked what happened in Tunis a couple of days ago.

There are consequences when fighting for freedom and independence from tyranny and persecution. No one ever said your lives wouldn't be threatened or killed as a result. Look at our nation how many men and women and innocent people died on our own lands when we were invaded by the British. You have to be able to persevere.

What do you mean, "invaded by the British"? You WERE British.

British troops invaded our land by sea. That's what I was referring to. Don't play stupid.

You're not even playing.

How can the British invade their own lands?

 

[Judicial review]

If they are innocent people who believe in the same things like freedom and the ability for a better life of prosper then they need to show they are willing to fight for it. You don't do that by saying you will analate one of the most peaceful countries and people in the world in Israel. You do that by fighting to the death your own leadership that is preventing peace with a country like Israel and the USA.

We did it in 1776. Others should be willing to do it also if they find their freedoms being controlled. This is the standard we should have. Should they get to this point they will hvae USA and likely Israel's support.

Sounds very nice, all well and good.Fighting for freedom and democracy, Arab style, has been done. Hence the Arab Spring in Tunisia. Well yes, they've achieved it......sort of.

Then looked what happened in Tunis a couple of days ago.

There are consequences when fighting for freedom and independence from tyranny and persecution. No one ever said your lives wouldn't be threatened or killed as a result. Look at our nation how many men and women and innocent people died on our own lands when we were invaded by the British. You have to be able to persevere.

What do you mean, "invaded by the British"? You WERE British.

British troops invaded our land by sea. That's what I was referring to. Don't play stupid.

You're not even playing.

How can the British invade their own lands?

When we signed the declaration of Independence it was no longer their lands you troll. Now you go on ignore. bye bye

 

[Mindful]

Sounds very nice, all well and good.Fighting for freedom and democracy, Arab style, has been done. Hence the Arab Spring in Tunisia. Well yes, they've achieved it......sort of.

Then looked what happened in Tunis a couple of days ago.

There are consequences when fighting for freedom and independence from tyranny and persecution. No one ever said your lives wouldn't be threatened or killed as a result. Look at our nation how many men and women and innocent people died on our own lands when we were invaded by the British. You have to be able to persevere.

What do you mean, "invaded by the British"? You WERE British.

British troops invaded our land by sea. That's what I was referring to. Don't play stupid.

You're not even playing.

How can the British invade their own lands?

When we signed the declaration of Independence it was no longer their lands you troll. Now you go on ignore. bye bye

You just want a fight? Yelling at someone and calling them a troll doesn't cut it. It was a rebellion at that stage. And the British didn't recognise it.

 

[Judicial review]

There are consequences when fighting for freedom and independence from tyranny and persecution. No one ever said your lives wouldn't be threatened or killed as a result. Look at our nation how many men and women and innocent people died on our own lands when we were invaded by the British. You have to be able to persevere.

What do you mean, "invaded by the British"? You WERE British.

British troops invaded our land by sea. That's what I was referring to. Don't play stupid.

You're not even playing.

How can the British invade their own lands?

When we signed the declaration of Independence it was no longer their lands you troll. Now you go on ignore. bye bye

You just want a fight? Yelling at someone and calling them a troll doesn't cut it. It was a rebellion at that stage. And the British didn't recognise it.

My point exactly. The British recognizing it was irrelevant. I choose to look at things from an American perspective and they were looking at it as invading their land that they worked hard on to try to take and kill them on.

Next time don't argue with me. I'm just too smart.