The 2 sides of Affirmative Action

manifold

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Pragmatically speaking, I really don't give a crap about AA. I haven't suffered anything as a result of it and I don't imagine many really have. And even for the odd 'victim' story, big deal. You don't get into every school, you don't get every job, you don't win every contract. Chances are you'll get the next one. That's life.

On the other hand...

I find the concept of affirmative action philosophically objectionable for the simple reason that it forces race into the equation. And that seems like the exact opposite thing you'd want to do if eliminating racism is the goal.
 

uscitizen

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Affirmative action is not much of an impact on anyone in recent years.
But many love to have it around to whine about.
 

IanC

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Affirmative action is not much of an impact on anyone in recent years.
But many love to have it around to whine about.

how do you know that AA doesn't have much impact? AA is not studied, or at least the studies are not released, except for the bean counting of who is hired or accepted. even universities do not know if AA works or not and they have all the necessary data available but refuse to let researchers to access it. (eg Sander et al)
 

editec

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I was victimized by AA back in the late 70s and early 80s.

It was a well intended law that was very badly thought out, and one that played out even worse in real life

Mostly the people who benefitted from it were upper middle class white women.

But to the extent that it broke the back of the caste system that we found in some public and private career paths, I still think it had some positive benefits for society, even if I personally got screwed because of it.
 
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manifold

manifold

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I was victimized by AA back in the late 70s and early 80s.

It was a well intended law that was very badly thought out, and one that played out even worse in real life

Mostly the people who benefitted from it were upper middle class white women.

But to the extent that it broke the back of the caste system that we found in some public and private career paths, I still think it had some positive benefits for society, even if I personally got screwed because of it.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that you managed to overcome this setback and have done alright for yourself.
 

editec

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I was victimized by AA back in the late 70s and early 80s.

It was a well intended law that was very badly thought out, and one that played out even worse in real life

Mostly the people who benefitted from it were upper middle class white women.

But to the extent that it broke the back of the caste system that we found in some public and private career paths, I still think it had some positive benefits for society, even if I personally got screwed because of it.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that you managed to overcome this setback and have done alright for yourself.
One can never know how it might have played out had I gotten other jobs, really.

I know I was pretty damned upset not to get a job with a major university because I was not Black.

And of course, one can never prove that that isn't why I got that position, either.

All I know is that I was hands down the more qualified candidate minus my shortcoming due to the fact that I am a White man.

All in all, however, I am somewhat sympathetic to the notion that historical class injustice sometimes need to be corrected.

Sadly, the way AA works out the very class of people least likely to have benefitted from past historical injustice are typically the class of people who end up paying for society's past misdeeds.

You don't suppose the Kennedy kids or young George Bush would ever have been passed over for a job because they were White, do you?

Me neither.
 

rightwinger

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I have not seen much Afirmative Action in the last 20 years. It used to mean quotas, explaining why you did not hire a woman or minority and everything had a number.

Now it is more expanding oportunities to minority areas and making sure that jobs are fully advertised.
 

Samson

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I find the concept of affirmative action philosophically objectionable for the simple reason that it forces race into the equation. And that seems like the exact opposite thing you'd want to do if eliminating racism is the goal.
What alternative would you suggest?
 
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manifold

manifold

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I find the concept of affirmative action philosophically objectionable for the simple reason that it forces race into the equation. And that seems like the exact opposite thing you'd want to do if eliminating racism is the goal.
What alternative would you suggest?
Nothing.

I don't believe anthing is necessary.
 

RodISHI

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The corporate welfare perks that come out of affirmative action should be killed. I say that understanding that the large corporates benefit and the little guy working his way up in the business world is either sucked up and controlled by these corporates, harassed to extremes or taken out. When I refused the offer to partner with one of the large corporates so they could benefit and have control of the contracts with that extra benefit from my business as a woman owned entity, life at the business got much harder. Shortly after refusing this large corporation's offer a state employee encouraged Rod's family, the people I leased the land from to get rid of me so they could bring in a large company. A lawsuit ensued when Rod's family attempted to have the leased canceled.

Affirmative action in contracting should never benefit larger corporations through federal or state sponsored subsidies and perks. It puts more control into the hands of the crooks at the expense of any small business trying to build a company from scratch regardless of anything else. What it does is it provides a means for large corporations to have more control when they find a sellout that will run under their thumbs for a few bucks.
 

Charles Stucker

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What's wrong with a program that discriminates as a way to level the discrimination playing field?
So you want to eliminate discrimination by discriminating?
To draw an analogy - a wall has a hole in it. Do you get rid of the hole by cutting it out?
 

Samson

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I find the concept of affirmative action philosophically objectionable for the simple reason that it forces race into the equation. And that seems like the exact opposite thing you'd want to do if eliminating racism is the goal.
What alternative would you suggest?
Nothing.

I don't believe anthing is necessary.
So, do you believe we've eliminated racism, or it never existed to begin with?
 

Lonestar_logic

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Affirmative Action is an executive order prohibiting discrimination in the work place. I have no problem with that executive order.
That execuive order is discrimination. When one group is given preferential treatment over another group, that is descrimination plain and simple.
 

Samson

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Affirmative Action is an executive order prohibiting discrimination in the work place. I have no problem with that executive order.
That execuive order is discrimination. When one group is given preferential treatment over another group, that is descrimination plain and simple.
How do you check to see whether or not someone is discriminating?
 

MizMolly

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People should be accepted based on their qualifications, not race or gender.
 

Dante

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Pragmatically speaking, I really don't give a crap about AA. I haven't suffered anything as a result of it and I don't imagine many really have. And even for the odd 'victim' story, big deal. You don't get into every school, you don't get every job, you don't win every contract. Chances are you'll get the next one. That's life.

On the other hand...

I find the concept of affirmative action philosophically objectionable for the simple reason that it forces race into the equation. And that seems like the exact opposite thing you'd want to do if eliminating racism is the goal.
context vs philosophical bullshit:

AA didn't inject race into the equation, racism did. AA was a remedy, a remedy some may say is flawed, but there we had to start somewhere.

btw, on more than one occasion, I was a victim of reverse discrimination, if you want to phrase it that way. You maybe weren't because you were born a few years too late and probably in a lily white suburb that benefited from white flight.

:eusa_whistle:

---

like I told somebody earlier: we are not programming here. We are discussion ideas. Ideas are not code. Unlike the world of computers and the people who live on them, the real world is full of nuance and inferences and more...that has not been programmed into a get/grab/fetch.

your quote: "...seems like the exact opposite thing you'd want to do if eliminating racism is the goal." is based on a flawed grasp of ideas and discussion.
 
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manifold

manifold

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Pragmatically speaking, I really don't give a crap about AA. I haven't suffered anything as a result of it and I don't imagine many really have. And even for the odd 'victim' story, big deal. You don't get into every school, you don't get every job, you don't win every contract. Chances are you'll get the next one. That's life.

On the other hand...

I find the concept of affirmative action philosophically objectionable for the simple reason that it forces race into the equation. And that seems like the exact opposite thing you'd want to do if eliminating racism is the goal.
context vs philosophical bullshit:

AA didn't inject race into the equation, racism did. AA was a remedy, a remedy some may say is flawed, but there we had to start somewhere.

btw, on more than one occasion, I was a victim of reverse discrimination, if you want to phrase it that way. You maybe weren't because you were born a few years too late and probably in a lily white suburb that benefited from white flight.

:eusa_whistle:

---

like I told somebody earlier: we are not programming here. We are discussion ideas. Ideas are not code. Unlike the world of computers and the people who live on them, the real world is full of nuance and inferences and more...that has not been programmed into a get/grab/fetch.

your quote: "...seems like the exact opposite thing you'd want to do if eliminating racism is the goal." is based on a flawed grasp of ideas and discussion.

You truly have a gift for eloquently saying absolutely nothing. :thup:
 

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