Supreme Court here we come....

[Navy1960]

A mandate requiring all individuals to purchase health insurance would be an unprecedented form of federal action. The government has never required people to buy any good or service as a condition of lawful residence in the United States. An individual mandate would have two features that, in combination, would make it unique. First, it would impose a duty on individuals as members of society. Second, it would require people to purchase a specific service that would be heavily regulated by the federal government. CBO 1994

This statement from a 1994 Congressional Budget Office Memorandum remains true today. Yet, all of the leading House and Senate health-care reform bills being debated in Congress require Americans to either secure or purchase health insurance with a particular threshold of coverage, estimated by CBO to cost up to $15,000 per year for a typical family.[2] This personal mandate to enter into a contract with a private health insurance company is enforced through civil and criminal tax penalties in section 501 of the House bill[3] and with a freestanding mandate and equally questionable civil tax penalties in sections 501 and 513 of the pending Senate bill.[4]

The purpose of this compulsory contract, coupled with the arbitrary price ratios and controls, is to require many people to buy artificially high-priced policies to subsidize coverage for others as well as an industry saddled with other government costs and regulations. Congress lawfully could enact a general tax to pay for these subsidies or it could create a tax credit for those who buy health insurance, but that would require Congress to "pay for" or budget for the subsidies in a conventional manner. The sponsors of the current bills are attempting, through the personal mandate, to keep the transfers entirely off budget or--through the gimmick of unconstitutional taxes or penalties they dub "shared responsibility payments"--make these transfers appear to be revenue-enhancing.
Why the Personal Mandate to Buy Health Insurance Is Unprecedented and Unconstitutional


For those of you who believe that this bill that is being called healthcare reform represents reform you are sadly mistaken. In fact it even violates one of the platforms of the very party who's intent it is to pass it. Further, after many months of painting the insurance companies as the villans they are about to succeed in enriching those very same insurance companies with several million new customers with mandates to purchase insurance. The problem though is that these mandates will lead to several constitutional challenges and according to many it will not pass that test. If that is so then the entire concept of this healthcare bill will collapse.

 

[Jon]

I, for one, am glad that the Supreme Court will see through this garbage. The very idea behind free market economies is that consumers can choose not to participate. This violates the rights of the American people and jeopardizes the principles on which we have built our society. It's a crying shame that people are actually supporting this.

 

[Navy1960]

One other thing of note here Jon, is the very mandates that are in the bill will result in an economic windfall for the very insurance companies that many have spent the last several months turning into villans. I fail to understand how supporters of this bill cannot see the simple truth of a bill that mandates that as a matter of citizenship people will now be required to purchase a service from a private company. If this does not violate all the principles this nation was founded upon I do not know what does.

 

[Big Fitz]

This could get very ugly. I have no faith that P-BO and company won't threaten to pack the court either. Worked for FDR after all.

 

[Navy1960]

I had a thread on this a while back , when someone asked me how, this would ever end up in court, and here is one way it will.

STATE CAPITOL, PHOENIX (June 22, 2009) – Today by a vote of 18-11, the Arizona Senate passed HCR2014: The Healthcare Freedom Act, which will refer a constitutional amendment to ballot to prevent citizens from being compelled to join a government-run healthcare system. The measure will also guarantee the right to purchase private health insurance.

AZ Healthcare Freedom Act on way to Ballot : Nancy Barto - State Representative

As soon as something like this becomes law, then the lawsuits will start at least here which will eventually draw in several other states that are considering like legislation. This is just one method, that does not include those states that can make the case that other states are treated differently under the 16th Amendment than they are. As I said, this bill is filled with issues that are going to be a big problem for it in court, and I suspect it's authors already know that.

 

[Harry Dresden]

One other thing of note here Jon, is the very mandates that are in the bill will result in an economic windfall for the very insurance companies that many have spent the last several months turning into villans. I fail to understand how supporters of this bill cannot see the simple truth of a bill that mandates that as a matter of citizenship people will now be required to purchase a service from a private company. If this does not violate all the principles this nation was founded upon I do not know what does.

in my state you are required to have car ins.....whats the difference here?

 

[WillowTree]

One other thing of note here Jon, is the very mandates that are in the bill will result in an economic windfall for the very insurance companies that many have spent the last several months turning into villans. I fail to understand how supporters of this bill cannot see the simple truth of a bill that mandates that as a matter of citizenship people will now be required to purchase a service from a private company. If this does not violate all the principles this nation was founded upon I do not know what does.

in my state you are required to have car ins.....whats the difference here?

you aren't mandated to own a car! You can't not own your body!

 

[saveliberty]

The Senate's version is still different than the House's. In reconciliation I would guess the penalty will be dropped for the reason of challenges in court. A softer abortion language will seep in and maybe even the Medicare expansion. Reconciliation bills are not subject to filibuster. You just need the majority vote to pass.

 

[Big Black Dog]

There is going to come a time, and it's coming real soon, that the government will be collecting taxes for this Health Care Reform crap. They will start collecting the taxes long before this case is heard in the Supreme Court. I would just like to know if I will be paid interest for the taxes the government collected illegally to fund this nonsense when they return my tax money to me.

 

[WillowTree]

There is going to come a time, and it's coming real soon, that the government will be collecting taxes for this Health Care Reform crap. They will start collecting the taxes long before this case is heard in the Supreme Court. I would just like to know if I will be paid interest for the taxes the government collected illegally to fund this nonsense when they return my tax money to me.

Are you kidding BBD? they will collect it and spend it just like they did social security. that's the only reason social security is in trouble cause the assholes "borrowed" the funds and neglected to pay them back.

 

[Harry Dresden]

One other thing of note here Jon, is the very mandates that are in the bill will result in an economic windfall for the very insurance companies that many have spent the last several months turning into villans. I fail to understand how supporters of this bill cannot see the simple truth of a bill that mandates that as a matter of citizenship people will now be required to purchase a service from a private company. If this does not violate all the principles this nation was founded upon I do not know what does.

in my state you are required to have car ins.....whats the difference here?

you aren't mandated to own a car! You can't not own your body!

your right Willow....did not think that one through....

 

[oreo]

in my state you are required to have car ins.....whats the difference here?

you aren't mandated to own a car! You can't not own your body!

your right Willow....did not think that one through....

They were able to force us into social security--so I imagine that they can do this too. The problem I see with it--is that there are many families that simply cannot afford medical insurance--especially at 15 thousand a year. So how do they fine these people & or throw them into jail for simply not being able to afford it?

 

[Harry Dresden]

you aren't mandated to own a car! You can't not own your body!

your right Willow....did not think that one through....

They were able to force us into social security--so I imagine that they can do this too. The problem I see with it--is that there are many families that simply cannot afford medical insurance--especially at 15 thousand a year. So how do they fine these people & or throw them into jail for simply not being able to afford it?

how else....the tax payer will sponser them....and as far as i am concerned,these are the ones that they should have been making a bill for....those who lost their jobs and lost their Ins.....a plan that takes care of those in the interim....it can happen to anyone of us......

 

[Claudette]

There is going to come a time, and it's coming real soon, that the government will be collecting taxes for this Health Care Reform crap. They will start collecting the taxes long before this case is heard in the Supreme Court. I would just like to know if I will be paid interest for the taxes the government collected illegally to fund this nonsense when they return my tax money to me.

Are you kidding BBD? they will collect it and spend it just like they did social security. that's the only reason social security is in trouble cause the assholes "borrowed" the funds and neglected to pay them back.

So true. SS used to be in a lockbox till that idiot LBJ unlocked it and the Congress saw all that money and there you go. SS is going broke because of that bs.

Still looking in my copy of the constitution which States the Govt is resposible for the healthcare of anyone??? Wonder what the SC would have to say about that??

 

[Navy1960]

One other thing of note here Jon, is the very mandates that are in the bill will result in an economic windfall for the very insurance companies that many have spent the last several months turning into villans. I fail to understand how supporters of this bill cannot see the simple truth of a bill that mandates that as a matter of citizenship people will now be required to purchase a service from a private company. If this does not violate all the principles this nation was founded upon I do not know what does.

in my state you are required to have car ins.....whats the difference here?

Two things Harry, one is a car and driving is a choice you make and as such once you make that choice you are subject to the laws that regulate it. If you do not decide to drive a car then you are NOT required to have car insurance. The other issue is that under the 10th Amendment your state has every right to make such a law. That is the difference. I'll even go further, if for example your state through a state wide ballot measure decided to make healthcare insurance mandatory for residents of your state and the voters of your state approved it, then under the 10th Amendment they have every right to do so.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

A mandate requiring all individuals to purchase health insurance would be an unprecedented form of federal action. The government has never required people to buy any good or service as a condition of lawful residence in the United States. An individual mandate would have two features that, in combination, would make it unique. First, it would impose a duty on individuals as members of society. Second, it would require people to purchase a specific service that would be heavily regulated by the federal government. CBO 1994

This statement from a 1994 Congressional Budget Office Memorandum remains true today. Yet, all of the leading House and Senate health-care reform bills being debated in Congress require Americans to either secure or purchase health insurance with a particular threshold of coverage, estimated by CBO to cost up to $15,000 per year for a typical family.[2] This personal mandate to enter into a contract with a private health insurance company is enforced through civil and criminal tax penalties in section 501 of the House bill[3] and with a freestanding mandate and equally questionable civil tax penalties in sections 501 and 513 of the pending Senate bill.[4]

The purpose of this compulsory contract, coupled with the arbitrary price ratios and controls, is to require many people to buy artificially high-priced policies to subsidize coverage for others as well as an industry saddled with other government costs and regulations. Congress lawfully could enact a general tax to pay for these subsidies or it could create a tax credit for those who buy health insurance, but that would require Congress to "pay for" or budget for the subsidies in a conventional manner. The sponsors of the current bills are attempting, through the personal mandate, to keep the transfers entirely off budget or--through the gimmick of unconstitutional taxes or penalties they dub "shared responsibility payments"--make these transfers appear to be revenue-enhancing.
Why the Personal Mandate to Buy Health Insurance Is Unprecedented and Unconstitutional


For those of you who believe that this bill that is being called healthcare reform represents reform you are sadly mistaken. In fact it even violates one of the platforms of the very party who's intent it is to pass it. Further, after many months of painting the insurance companies as the villans they are about to succeed in enriching those very same insurance companies with several million new customers with mandates to purchase insurance. The problem though is that these mandates will lead to several constitutional challenges and according to many it will not pass that test. If that is so then the entire concept of this healthcare bill will collapse.

You know what will happen.

By the time a case makes it through the court system they will already have the framework, workers, and tax system in place. Once its found unconstitutional the only option will at that point be, "unfortunately", a public option .

Just saying...if you are playing chess instead of checkers you see the big game plan with this health bill.

The rush to pass it now is to get the governmnets foot into the power door so they can start setting it up...i almost think this is their plan all along.

 

[Navy1960]

A mandate requiring all individuals to purchase health insurance would be an unprecedented form of federal action. The government has never required people to buy any good or service as a condition of lawful residence in the United States. An individual mandate would have two features that, in combination, would make it unique. First, it would impose a duty on individuals as members of society. Second, it would require people to purchase a specific service that would be heavily regulated by the federal government. CBO 1994

This statement from a 1994 Congressional Budget Office Memorandum remains true today. Yet, all of the leading House and Senate health-care reform bills being debated in Congress require Americans to either secure or purchase health insurance with a particular threshold of coverage, estimated by CBO to cost up to $15,000 per year for a typical family.[2] This personal mandate to enter into a contract with a private health insurance company is enforced through civil and criminal tax penalties in section 501 of the House bill[3] and with a freestanding mandate and equally questionable civil tax penalties in sections 501 and 513 of the pending Senate bill.[4]

The purpose of this compulsory contract, coupled with the arbitrary price ratios and controls, is to require many people to buy artificially high-priced policies to subsidize coverage for others as well as an industry saddled with other government costs and regulations. Congress lawfully could enact a general tax to pay for these subsidies or it could create a tax credit for those who buy health insurance, but that would require Congress to "pay for" or budget for the subsidies in a conventional manner. The sponsors of the current bills are attempting, through the personal mandate, to keep the transfers entirely off budget or--through the gimmick of unconstitutional taxes or penalties they dub "shared responsibility payments"--make these transfers appear to be revenue-enhancing.
Why the Personal Mandate to Buy Health Insurance Is Unprecedented and Unconstitutional


For those of you who believe that this bill that is being called healthcare reform represents reform you are sadly mistaken. In fact it even violates one of the platforms of the very party who's intent it is to pass it. Further, after many months of painting the insurance companies as the villans they are about to succeed in enriching those very same insurance companies with several million new customers with mandates to purchase insurance. The problem though is that these mandates will lead to several constitutional challenges and according to many it will not pass that test. If that is so then the entire concept of this healthcare bill will collapse.

You know what will happen.

By the time a case makes it through the court system they will already have the framework, workers, and tax system in place. Once its found unconstitutional the only option will at that point be, "unfortunately", a public option .

Just saying...if you are playing chess instead of checkers you see the big game plan with this health bill.

The rush to pass it now is to get the governmnets foot into the power door so they can start setting it up...i almost think this is their plan all along.

Exactly. I'm very well aware of the intent of passing this bill. Think about this a moment the Democrat party platform calls for a "public option" why then would discard a major portion of your own party platform amogst others just to pass this bill and then proceed to purchase votes. This bill has NOTHING to do with healthcare reform at all and those who think so are in for a very big surprise.

 

[frazzledgear]

For those of you who believe that this bill that is being called healthcare reform represents reform you are sadly mistaken. In fact it even violates one of the platforms of the very party who's intent it is to pass it. Further, after many months of painting the insurance companies as the villans they are about to succeed in enriching those very same insurance companies with several million new customers with mandates to purchase insurance. The problem though is that these mandates will lead to several constitutional challenges and according to many it will not pass that test. If that is so then the entire concept of this healthcare bill will collapse.

Democrats KNOW FOR A FACT it is unconstitutional. Without a doubt. They know they do not have the constitutional grounds to pass a bill that requires citizens to pay a PRICE to be legal, ordered to purchase a particular good or service -or have government PUNISH them both financially and criminally - for refusing to spend their money as government ordered them to. Democrats would have to be STUPID to believe they have the constitutional authority to do that. And while I know they are deceitful, lying, unethical, immoral and power hungry assholes -I do not believe they are stupid. So why would they STILL choose to pass a bill with language they already know for a fact is unconstitutional?

It is because they ALSO know that by the time it wends its way through the court system to the Supreme Court that federal government will have already been collecting the taxes for YEARS. Will by that time have most, if not all, the new 70 different agencies and bureaucracies this bill creates -all set up and working. And at THAT point, they will say that since the entire system is already in place and government cannot force citizens to purchase a good or service in the PRIVATE sector, the only possible "remedy" to the Supreme Court decision to strike that part of the bill down -is for government to just take over the entire system and PROVIDE health care to everyone. While collecting even MORE taxes needed to pay for it. The Supreme Court striking down the part ordering people to purchase private health care insurance or risk being thrown in prison and fined is INTENDED to be the wedge in the door that will allow government to INSTANTLY turn around and declare itself the sole health care insurance provider as the only realistic remedy for that Supreme Court decision. They will insist that Congress imposing ever more taxes on us to pay for a system the overwhelming majority opposed EVER being established at all - isn't the same thing as government ordering people to spend their money in the private sector on a government favored good or service or face criminal and financial penalties. It is the DECEITFUL, LYING ASS and DELIBERATE bastardization and exploitation of our Constitution in order to PRETEND government is trying to do this in a constitutional way. By deliberately using language they know for a fact will be struck down by the Supreme Court -they can then use it as the very means of FORCIBLY imposing on us all the very system the overwhelming majority OPPOSED ALL ALONG. And then forcing us all to foot the bill for it at the same time.

They will insist that raising and collecting TAXES to pay for it and then have government PROVIDE health care insurance to everyone is not the same thing as FORCING people to spend their money on health insurance through the private sector on the threat of punishment. In other words, they believe forcing people to pay taxes for a system they opposed and was simply imposed on them by the force of government - is a win for them. They will simply PRETEND that substituting having government force people to pay for it by having government confiscate their money is somehow different from government forcing people to pay for it through a company in the private sector. They get their way IN SPITE of the will of the majority and will use the force of government to IMPOSE it on us all against our will -while also forcing us to pay for what we opposed in the first place. In spite of the fact that same stunt didn't work out too well for King George lll when he did it.

Everyone should take a good look at this -no matter where you stand on health care. Because THIS is tyranny and this is how a people are deceived to allow tyranny to take hold in a country and the founding document where WE THE PEOPLE have claimed for ourselves rights and liberties government may not EVER claim for itself -just tossed into the trash. Forever. First by creeping in on the backs of those who in THIS particular instance have no problem if our elected representatives abandon their oaths to their constituents and the democratic principle of carrying out the will of the people -and just FORCE it on us all against our will and then FORCE us all to pay for a system we never wanted. All in the phony name of CARING about people, and the belief that they "care" so much about people they are justified in using the force of government to impose its will on the people against their will. The left loves tyranny, looks for and tries to create any opening for tyranny -because they cannot get their agenda enacted otherwise because a truly FREE people REJECT their agenda every time.

You people who favor government ignoring the will of the people this time and forcing on us all what the majority oppose -all because you happen to personally favor this bill -are the biggest suckers of all. Willing to not only sell off your own freedoms for the delusion that a more tyrannical government is a more "caring" one -but willing to sell off those of your own children with it. Don't hold your breath waiting for them to thank you for it. Especially since they are bound to find out that previous generations died to keep the rights and freedoms of their descendants intact -while you sold off theirs for what history has already proven REPEATEDLY is a dangerous delusion that will inflict far more harm than it pretends to be curing.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Guys its so simple to put into words, that is the unconstitutionality.

Name one law that requires american citizens to buy a product from a private company or face large fines and/or jailtime.

 

[Navy1960]

The answer is simple there is none, even the CBO has said as much,

Several of the health care reform bills being considered by the 103rd Congress
contain mandates by the federal government that would require individuals,
employers, or a combination of both to purchase health insurance. The
imposition of an individual mandate, or a combination of an individual and an
employer mandate, would be an unprecedented form of federal action.
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/48xx/doc4816/doc38.pdf

A mandate requiring all individuals to purchase health insurance would be an
unprecedented form of federal action. The government has never required
people to buy any good or service as a condition of lawful residence in the
United States. CBO