State Dept. told to plan for potential protests after Jerusalem embassy announcement

[Humanity]

Only fallacious in the current situation.

If, and of course, it's a big IF, there were an agreed peace treaty then there would be sovereign state and international borders.

The decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel does not help the peace process. Does not help in any negotiation.

Yes, it is a fallacious argument BECAUSE the current situation is not as you have described with two sovereign States and a border between them.

The decision to recognize Jerusalem DOES indeed help with the peace process and with negotiations. (Not that there was ever a peace process to begin with else Arab Palestine long ago would have existed). It helps because it recognizes REALITY. It dispenses with any illusions that Jerusalem (or a part of it) will not be under Israeli sovereignty. Of course, it will. Its silly to think otherwise. It already HAS been for decades. Finally, it illuminates the Arab Palestinian (as well as the wider Arab and Muslim) response. Which has not been to encourage peace and to build its own infrastructure and economy, but to encourage "days of rage".

What IS it that the Arab Palestinians are trying to WIN, here? Do they honestly think they will regain all of Jerusalem in a negotiation? Do you think they will "liberate" all of Arab Palestine (aka Israel)? What do you think we are negotiating here?

The best case scenario in negotiation for the Arab Palestinians is a contiguous (excluding Gaza) territory with maybe a small portion of Jerusalem and the continuation of some control over the Temple Mount/Al Haram al Sharif complex. If they are really pushy they might still get their wish for a Jew-free State (as abhorrent as that is). AND if they are exceptionally peaceful and start controlling their own violent people (beginning with themselves, the instigators) they might even get a border with Jordan, in time and with Israel secured.

That is the best case scenario that has EVER been conceived of -- that is the two State solution. There is no better deal for them. And they need to stop imagining that there is. Starting with Jerusalem.

The potential for losses and to end up in a much worse position is large and real. The sooner the Arab Palestinians start working toward peace, the better for them. They can't win more than they've already been offered, time and again. And they have much to lose.

Taking your view is that there is no future!

And, as I see thing now, there likely is no future for peace. Israel now believes that Jerusalem is theirs exclusively because it has been sanctioned by Trump.

There is a 'border' within Jerusalem. East and West, as recognised by every free thinking country EXCEPT Israel and the US. Israel occupied East Jerusalem, that is internationally accepted and recognised.

That is exactly why my argument is completely valid.

I don't want Palestine to hold all of Jerusalem, as I don't want Israel holding all of Jerusalem. Hence my belief that corpus separatum is the only solution for Jerusalem.

 

[Humanity]

... Trumps ridiculous decision KNOWING that he was inciting violence!?!?!

Inciting violence? Trump was NOT inciting violence! You do know what "inciting violence" means, right? Inciting violence is when you call for three days of rage. Inciting violence is when you say "death to America, death to Israel". Inciting violence is calling for a enewal of the knife intifada or any new intifada.

If an abusive husband doesn't get the dinner that he likes and beats his wife for it the WIFE is not the one inciting violence by her failure to please her husband.

Sheesh, you guys. Think this through.

Geeze Shusha...

Firstly, your analogy is quite possibly one of the worst I have read this year!

Secondly, do you honestly believe that there would be no protests, no violence following Trumps declaration?

And, if you are honest, you will have to agree with me that, following Trumps declaration, there WOULD be protests and violence.

incitement
ɪnˈsʌɪtm(ə)nt/
noun

1. the action of provoking unlawful behaviour or urging someone to behave unlawfully.

Yes, I know what incitement is! Now you know also!

 

[Humanity]

Only fallacious in the current situation.

If, and of course, it's a big IF, there were an agreed peace treaty then there would be sovereign state and international borders.

The decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel does not help the peace process. Does not help in any negotiation.

I think the flaw with that argument falls on the claim to some alleged “peace process”. There hasn’t been any meaningful peace process in decades. Both Hamas and Fatah have been comfortably maintaining their respective mini-caliphates via the UN funded welfare fraud. Neither Abbas nor Mashal are going let anyone challenge their dictatorships, as long as the welfare fraud money is delivered to them by the truckload. If you look at the news coming out of the West Bank, Abbas is actually ramping up the propaganda and incitement generated by his Islamic terrorist syndicate. I can’t fault Trump for making a bold move. When someone suggests that Arabs-Moslems are committed to peace, I have to take that in the context of incitement by Abbas praising attacks by Arabs-moslems against Israelis using guns, knives and vehicles.

The Islamic Peaceful Inner Struggle rolls on.

The ONLY person to level the accusation of "incitement" at is Trump for making the decision he made.

You need to keep up with the news.

Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh calls for 'new intifada' against Israel

What do you think intifada means?



Trump's Jerusalem decision: The Palestinian leadership is encouraging violence

What do you think violence means?

Oh I keep up with the news...

Let's see...

Why do you think that Hamas leader has called for intifada NOW? Do you think it could be in response to Trumps ridiculous decision KNOWING that he was inciting violence!?!?!

That's really silly. Trump is not the one inciting violence. That falls to the islamist dictators in Gaza and the West Bank calling out their minions to an intifada.

Lets be honest. Trump's announcement was, at least temporarily, a reprieve for the islamist dictators Haniyeh and Abbas in that they can redirect Moslem Rage elsewhere, at least for a time.

One of the first rules in the maintenance of totalitarianism is to invent an external enemy to deflect scrutiny and criticism of the real enemy: the internal oppressor(s).

When brutal, theocratic fear societies look to strengthen themselves internally, a reliable tactic is to whip its citizens into a hateful frenzy over invented external enemies and their internal agents. It works best when it's a full-blown, across the board effort.

incitement
ɪnˈsʌɪtm(ə)nt/
noun

1. the action of provoking unlawful behaviour or urging someone to behave unlawfully.

So, you think that Trumps "action" would NOT provoke unlawful behaviour?

 

[Hollie]

I think the flaw with that argument falls on the claim to some alleged “peace process”. There hasn’t been any meaningful peace process in decades. Both Hamas and Fatah have been comfortably maintaining their respective mini-caliphates via the UN funded welfare fraud. Neither Abbas nor Mashal are going let anyone challenge their dictatorships, as long as the welfare fraud money is delivered to them by the truckload. If you look at the news coming out of the West Bank, Abbas is actually ramping up the propaganda and incitement generated by his Islamic terrorist syndicate. I can’t fault Trump for making a bold move. When someone suggests that Arabs-Moslems are committed to peace, I have to take that in the context of incitement by Abbas praising attacks by Arabs-moslems against Israelis using guns, knives and vehicles.

The Islamic Peaceful Inner Struggle rolls on.

The ONLY person to level the accusation of "incitement" at is Trump for making the decision he made.

You need to keep up with the news.

Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh calls for 'new intifada' against Israel

What do you think intifada means?



Trump's Jerusalem decision: The Palestinian leadership is encouraging violence

What do you think violence means?

Oh I keep up with the news...

Let's see...

Why do you think that Hamas leader has called for intifada NOW? Do you think it could be in response to Trumps ridiculous decision KNOWING that he was inciting violence!?!?!

That's really silly. Trump is not the one inciting violence. That falls to the islamist dictators in Gaza and the West Bank calling out their minions to an intifada.

Lets be honest. Trump's announcement was, at least temporarily, a reprieve for the islamist dictators Haniyeh and Abbas in that they can redirect Moslem Rage elsewhere, at least for a time.

One of the first rules in the maintenance of totalitarianism is to invent an external enemy to deflect scrutiny and criticism of the real enemy: the internal oppressor(s).

When brutal, theocratic fear societies look to strengthen themselves internally, a reliable tactic is to whip its citizens into a hateful frenzy over invented external enemies and their internal agents. It works best when it's a full-blown, across the board effort.

incitement
ɪnˈsʌɪtm(ə)nt/
noun

1. the action of provoking unlawful behaviour or urging someone to behave unlawfully.

So, you think that Trumps "action" would NOT provoke unlawful behaviour?

If you take a moment and read the news, you can find any number of reliable reports identifying Hamas and Fatah inciting their minions to violence.

Can you provide a reliable report of Trump inciting Jews to violence?

 

[abi]

Can you provide a reliable report of Trump inciting Jews to violence?

Like the title of this thread and the link in the OP?

 

[Humanity]

The ONLY person to level the accusation of "incitement" at is Trump for making the decision he made.

You need to keep up with the news.

Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh calls for 'new intifada' against Israel

What do you think intifada means?



Trump's Jerusalem decision: The Palestinian leadership is encouraging violence

What do you think violence means?

Oh I keep up with the news...

Let's see...

Why do you think that Hamas leader has called for intifada NOW? Do you think it could be in response to Trumps ridiculous decision KNOWING that he was inciting violence!?!?!

That's really silly. Trump is not the one inciting violence. That falls to the islamist dictators in Gaza and the West Bank calling out their minions to an intifada.

Lets be honest. Trump's announcement was, at least temporarily, a reprieve for the islamist dictators Haniyeh and Abbas in that they can redirect Moslem Rage elsewhere, at least for a time.

One of the first rules in the maintenance of totalitarianism is to invent an external enemy to deflect scrutiny and criticism of the real enemy: the internal oppressor(s).

When brutal, theocratic fear societies look to strengthen themselves internally, a reliable tactic is to whip its citizens into a hateful frenzy over invented external enemies and their internal agents. It works best when it's a full-blown, across the board effort.

incitement
ɪnˈsʌɪtm(ə)nt/
noun

1. the action of provoking unlawful behaviour or urging someone to behave unlawfully.

So, you think that Trumps "action" would NOT provoke unlawful behaviour?

If you take a moment and read the news, you can find any number of reliable reports identifying Hamas and Fatah inciting their minions to violence.

Can you provide a reliable report of Trump inciting Jews to violence?

What? Is "incitement" exclusive to Jews too?

Geeze, they got "anti-semite" exclusivity, not everything has to be Jew-centric!

 

[Hollie]

Can you provide a reliable report of Trump inciting Jews to violence?

Like the title of this thread and the link in the OP?

That was quite the sidestep. Can you link to a news article?

No? I didn’t think so. You will need to be desensitized to the reality that the bellicose demands of you Islamics; threats and threats of violence will be met with a yawn and then “now go away”.

 

[Hollie]

You need to keep up with the news.

Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh calls for 'new intifada' against Israel

What do you think intifada means?



Trump's Jerusalem decision: The Palestinian leadership is encouraging violence

What do you think violence means?

Oh I keep up with the news...

Let's see...

Why do you think that Hamas leader has called for intifada NOW? Do you think it could be in response to Trumps ridiculous decision KNOWING that he was inciting violence!?!?!

That's really silly. Trump is not the one inciting violence. That falls to the islamist dictators in Gaza and the West Bank calling out their minions to an intifada.

Lets be honest. Trump's announcement was, at least temporarily, a reprieve for the islamist dictators Haniyeh and Abbas in that they can redirect Moslem Rage elsewhere, at least for a time.

One of the first rules in the maintenance of totalitarianism is to invent an external enemy to deflect scrutiny and criticism of the real enemy: the internal oppressor(s).

When brutal, theocratic fear societies look to strengthen themselves internally, a reliable tactic is to whip its citizens into a hateful frenzy over invented external enemies and their internal agents. It works best when it's a full-blown, across the board effort.

incitement
ɪnˈsʌɪtm(ə)nt/
noun

1. the action of provoking unlawful behaviour or urging someone to behave unlawfully.

So, you think that Trumps "action" would NOT provoke unlawful behaviour?

If you take a moment and read the news, you can find any number of reliable reports identifying Hamas and Fatah inciting their minions to violence.

Can you provide a reliable report of Trump inciting Jews to violence?

What? Is "incitement" exclusive to Jews too?

Geeze, they got "anti-semite" exclusivity, not everything has to be Jew-centric!

I really didn’t expect you to respond in any way other than expressing your hurt feelings.

 

[Humanity]

Oh I keep up with the news...

Let's see...

Why do you think that Hamas leader has called for intifada NOW? Do you think it could be in response to Trumps ridiculous decision KNOWING that he was inciting violence!?!?!

That's really silly. Trump is not the one inciting violence. That falls to the islamist dictators in Gaza and the West Bank calling out their minions to an intifada.

Lets be honest. Trump's announcement was, at least temporarily, a reprieve for the islamist dictators Haniyeh and Abbas in that they can redirect Moslem Rage elsewhere, at least for a time.

One of the first rules in the maintenance of totalitarianism is to invent an external enemy to deflect scrutiny and criticism of the real enemy: the internal oppressor(s).

When brutal, theocratic fear societies look to strengthen themselves internally, a reliable tactic is to whip its citizens into a hateful frenzy over invented external enemies and their internal agents. It works best when it's a full-blown, across the board effort.

incitement
ɪnˈsʌɪtm(ə)nt/
noun

1. the action of provoking unlawful behaviour or urging someone to behave unlawfully.

So, you think that Trumps "action" would NOT provoke unlawful behaviour?

If you take a moment and read the news, you can find any number of reliable reports identifying Hamas and Fatah inciting their minions to violence.

Can you provide a reliable report of Trump inciting Jews to violence?

What? Is "incitement" exclusive to Jews too?

Geeze, they got "anti-semite" exclusivity, not everything has to be Jew-centric!

I really didn’t expect you to respond in any way other than expressing your hurt feelings.

Hahaha, man, there is no hurt feelings here. Just a sadness that you are incapable of honest, clear thought and have to come up with BS questions that have no real meaning other than, well, maybe, covering your own hurt feelings and embarrassment.

It's cool... Take a chill out and watch the unfolding of Trumps incitement to violence!

 

[ForeverYoung436]

So, Israel has an absolute right to exist as any other nation exists.

"Any other nation" doesn't ask permission about the location of its capital.

I am not sure that the French would be too happy about Germany declaring that half of Paris is now the capital of Germany. You would think that the Germans would have to "ask permission"!

This is a fallacious argument. France and Germany are two separate sovereign States with an international border between them. Israel and Arab Palestine are in the midst of an internal civil war under which the territory, including Jerusalem, remains disputed and unresolved.

Only fallacious in the current situation.

If, and of course, it's a big IF, there were an agreed peace treaty then there would be sovereign state and international borders.

The decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel does not help the peace process. Does not help in any negotiation.

I actually think it would be helpful in negotiations, because the Palestinians now know, in no uncertain terms, what Israel's position is. Whatever the fate of the West Bank and Gaza might be, Jerusalem is off the table. Period.

 

[abi]

I actually think it would be helpful in negotiations, because the Palestinians now know, in no uncertain terms, what Israel's position is. Whatever the fate of the West Bank and Gaza might be, Jerusalem is off the table. Period.

How arrogant and how can stealing Jerusalem lead to peace. Do you care at all for all those who will die from this idiotic move? Do you care or is your love for Israel more important than human life?

 

[Shusha]

Geeze Shusha...

Firstly, your analogy is quite possibly one of the worst I have read this year!

Secondly, do you honestly believe that there would be no protests, no violence following Trumps declaration?

And, if you are honest, you will have to agree with me that, following Trumps declaration, there WOULD be protests and violence.

incitement
ɪnˈsʌɪtm(ə)nt/
noun

1. the action of provoking unlawful behaviour or urging someone to behave unlawfully.

Yes, I know what incitement is! Now you know also!

No, we all knew that Trump's declaration would cause a violent reaction from Arab Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims. How do we know? Because the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

But the fact that violence is predictable does not, in any way, mean that the violence was incited. Nor that violence is justifiable or that those causing the violence are not responsible for the violence. People who are violent are the ONLY ones responsible for the violence they cause. There is no excuse or justification for violence (save self-defense). Trump did not encourage the Arab Palestinians, Arabs or Muslims to become violent. He did not provoke them to unlawful behaviour or urge them to behave unlawfully. He did not call for them to become violent or perform violent acts. He did not incite them. Just because he made a decision that they did not like is not inciting people to violence.

What he did was recognize or call attention to an actual reality. He made a simple acknowledgement. The Arab Palestinians, the Arabs and the Muslims could have reacted in any number of different ways. But they keep choosing violence.

A FAR more effective reaction would have been to call for the international community to recognize a part of Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital. A FAR more effective reaction would be to move the seat of government from Ramallah to Jerusalem. A FAR more effective reaction would be to start building infrastructure and an economy and peace. But no...

 

[rylah]

I actually think it would be helpful in negotiations, because the Palestinians now know, in no uncertain terms, what Israel's position is. Whatever the fate of the West Bank and Gaza might be, Jerusalem is off the table. Period.

How arrogant and how can stealing Jerusalem lead to peace. Do you care at all for all those who will die from this idiotic move? Do you care or is your love for Israel more important than human life?

Did Trump steal Jerusalem?
I don't think so...You're stretching this rubber too much, as did the former presidents for 20 years.

This indecisiveness showed the Arab world that no matter what the US said, it could be ignored.

 

[abi]

But the fact that violence is predictable does not, in any way, mean that the violence was incited.

Like in '48 when Ben-Gurion declared independence on another's land?

 

[abi]

What he did was recognize or call attention to an actual reality.

You should do this. Trump is clueless on this topic, however.

 

[abi]

A FAR more effective reaction would have been to call for the international community to recognize a part of Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital. A FAR more effective reaction would be to move the seat of government from Ramallah to Jerusalem. A FAR more effective reaction would be to start building infrastructure and an economy and peace. But no...

A far more effective solution would have been to have done nothing.

 

[Shusha]

And, as I see thing now, there likely is no future for peace. Israel now believes that Jerusalem is theirs exclusively because it has been sanctioned by Trump.

Really? You think that it never occurred to Israel until Trump said it? You think Israel hasn't made that clear? You think that isn't what Netanyahu has been saying for years? Trump changed NOTHING. The Israeli government is already operating out of Jerusalem. It has for decades.

There is a 'border' within Jerusalem. East and West, as recognised by every free thinking country EXCEPT Israel and the US. Israel occupied East Jerusalem, that is internationally accepted and recognised.

There is no international border dividing Jerusalem. There isn't even an Armistice Line anymore since the conflict which created the 1949 Armistice Line has been resolved by treaty.

What there IS, is an expectation, as written in agreements, that the STARTING POINT for negotiations between Israel and the government of the Arab Palestinians for the division of territory would be along that Armistice Line, with land swaps. In every single, existing agreement, the status of final borders, Jerusalem, eviction of Jews from territory and the "refugees" are left for negotiation. So no, it is not "internationally accepted and recognized".

What is actually recognized is the maintenance of the status quo. The status quo is the blind and ridiculous idea that the international community holds that the "1967 lines" will be the final borders, that Jerusalem will be divided and that all of the Jews will be evicted from "Palestine", or the even more blind and ridiculous idea that Arab Palestinians hold that they will "liberate" ALL of "Palestine" from Jewish sovereignty.

 

[abi]

Did Trump steal Jerusalem?

No, but he offered the dumbest zionists the belief that Jerusalem is theirs and theirs alone. This has just begun.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

I actually think it would be helpful in negotiations, because the Palestinians now know, in no uncertain terms, what Israel's position is. Whatever the fate of the West Bank and Gaza might be, Jerusalem is off the table. Period.

How arrogant and how can stealing Jerusalem lead to peace. Do you care at all for all those who will die from this idiotic move? Do you care or is your love for Israel more important than human life?

Jerusalem was not "stolen", and again how anyone claiming to be "Jewish" can make a remark like that, I don't know. Just say you're not Jewish, and be done with it. Then no one would look at you as a traitor.

Was it also "arrogant" for the Palestinians to get UNESCO to declare Hebron and the Tomb of the Patriarchs to be Palestinian sites, or is that designation only reserved for Israel?

Jerusalem was won by Israel from Jordan in a miraculous, defensive war in 1967. (And yes I know Israel attacked Egypt first, but on the Jordanian side, it was the Jordanians who bombarded West Jerusalem first.) So no, it wasn't "stolen." To the victor go the spoils. And Jordan officially gave up the West Bank in 1988, to boot.

 

[abi]

The Israeli government is already operating out of Jerusalem. It has for decades.

Yup, an ongoing war crime lasting decades. I wonder what the last regime was that pulled that off.