Stand and be counted or sit down and shut up: Reflections on Colin as a patriot

[Flash]

Most of these NFL players would be in jail, on welfare, selling drugs, pimping or flipping burgers if they weren't good at running and jumping so they should get down on their knees and thank God they live in a country that made them millionaires.

Too bad the NFL owners don't have the courage to do the right thing and fire the sonofabitches. It will cost them hundreds of millions of dollars in the long run.

 

[usmbguest5318]

Aside:
For as much invective and vitriol as is seen on USMB about freedom of expression, one'd think that not one soul here would countenance any sort of recriminations against Colin Kaepernick.​

...and why would you think that?

1A shields one from legal consequences for political 'speech', not 'recrimination'.

??? "For as much invective and vitriol as is seen on USMB about freedom of expression" is how that sentence begins. Have you not see all the "carrying on on USMB about "free speech this" and "free speech that?

Indeed, I read the entire sentence - and responding to a question with a question is not a answer. In reference to the entirety of your statement - why would one 'think that not one soul here would countenance any sort of recriminations against CK'?

why would one 'think that not one soul here would countenance any sort of recriminations against CK'?

I think that because I have yet to see one soul on USMB oppose attest to opposing free speech, and insofar as the man is by himself protesting peacefully (hell, even being a QB, he likely exhibits more violence shortly after his protest than he does during the protest) -- expressing himself -- I would not expect anyone here to have a problem with the fact that he's doing so.

`

The premise of patriotism is extremely subjective. Personally, I don't care what hollywood, music and (so-called) professional athletes say, think or do outside their craft. Some people obviously do and seem to get very emotionally excited over such things. I suppose they need to keep their minds occupied by nothing. Still, these incidents have been propelled to the front of national debate by a mindless president wishing to cause more hate and discontent.

Colin Kaepernick is stupid. Like most such athletes, that's a given. Academic grades was not his ticket out of the ghetto, football was. However, he is supposed to be a good black quarterback, a rarity in the NFL I understand. One day, the forward thinking Kaepernick thought it would be spiffy and cool to kneel in protest to police brutality, during the national anthem. While I question his judgment and thinking skills using a sporting event to voice his displeasure, the act is understandable.

Historically, taking the knee was symbolic to pledging fidelity and allegiance to a person or concept. I'd never do that as my allegiance and loyalty, even to this country, is conditional. Anyways, by certain standards, what Colin did by kneeling during the anthem, was magnanimous. However, in our politically dysfunctional and hyperbolic system, that was seen by some ideologies as an insult, thus the backlash against him. Actions bring consequences. Poor Colin.

The loony left sees this as him being some sort of a hero/patriot while the loony right sees him as an agitator and traitor. Enter our buffoon of a president spreading gas on a fire and an instant, mind numbingly stupid controversy is created in hopes of occupying the simplistic and weak minds of its citizens so he can do more perfidy unnoticed. It's working too.

Kaepernick a "patriot"? A victim of circumstance at best but a patriot? Only to extremists and people with too much time on their hands.

To be perfectly honest, other than people telling me he's black, I'd not have known he is. I saw a photo of him some time back thought him to be a white dude.

​

If anything, he looks Mediterranean -- literally from anywhere around that body of water -- to me.

I don't care what hollywood, music and (so-called) professional athletes say, think or do outside their craft.

I tend to agree with you on this.

these incidents have been propelled to the front of national debate by a mindless president wishing to cause more hate and discontent.

There's no question in my mind that, on general principle, it's really not something into which Trump should have inserted himself. Given his "issues" on matters of race, more so than any other recent POTUS, he should have stayed the hell away from the topic, definitely not tweeting about it of his own volition. If asked, well, sure, he could have found something to say that was both truthful, tactful and that didn't sound like a "dodge." (Then again, given Trump's nonexistent relationship with the truth, maybe he couldn't have done that.)

Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.
-- Benjamin Franklin​

Trump's "Dorianesque" need to "yield to temptation" is not the only thing that's making the matter a bigger issue than it need be. That he didn't get picked up thrust the matter more into the spotlight than did the man's kneeling. It's not as though Colin "mooned" the band or singer of the anthem. As protests and acts of defiance go, kneeling is pretty mild.

I have to be honest. Were I in the stadium when Colin and his team mate kneeled, I don't know that I'd have even noticed.

​

...And for the life of me, I have no idea why Colin is the one who's name is "all over the news" when he clearly had company.

One day, the forward thinking Kaepernick thought it would be spiffy and cool to kneel in protest to police brutality, during the national anthem. ...While I question his judgment and thinking skills using a sporting event to voice his displeasure, the act is understandable.

I don't question his judgment. To do so would be to question the judgement of every other person who ever put themselves at risk in the name of ameliorative social change.

Certainly the man is no ideological poltroon. That I something I respect far more than I do anyone who sees and ill and puts nothing of note at risk to see it corrected.

...in our politically dysfunctional and hyperbolic system, that was seen by some ideologies as an insult, thus the backlash against him. Actions bring consequences. Poor Colin.

Insofar as his employer is a private sector one, yes. Given the way ticket revenue works in the NFL, even though I'd like to believe there is no concerted move to "blackball" Kaepernick, it wouldn't surprise me to learn there is.

Enter our buffoon of a president spreading gas on a fire and an instant, mind numbingly stupid controversy is created in hopes of occupying the simplistic and weak minds of its citizens so he can do more perfidy unnoticed.

I could not agree with you more.

 

[Dim Bulb]

He was looking for a new gig after he got benched for sucking. That isn't my definition of a patriot.

Speaking solely of football skills, when he broke into the league that first year he made some cranky unbelievable throws. He could effortlessly throw the ball sixty yards. Big arm. Accurate too.

But like Robert Griffin, he took too many hits and like Cam Newton, he had inexplicably bad stretches when he was wildly inaccurate.

So he isn't in the league based on football partially too. I have no doubt a lot of owners also didn't want the distraction.

 

[Dim Bulb]

Most of these NFL players would be in jail, on welfare, selling drugs, pimping or flipping burgers if they weren't good at running and jumping so they should get down on their knees and thank God they live in a country that made them millionaires.

Too bad the NFL owners don't have the courage to do the right thing and fire the sonofabitches. It will cost them hundreds of millions of dollars in the long run.

Agree. JJ Watt, who raised tens of millions of dollars for hurricane victims would most certainly be in jail or pimping. Tom Brady would certainly be in jail for perjury.

 

[Correll]

When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
-- Earl Nightingale [If you do nothing else with this post, listen to Earl]​

To my mind, a patriot, a genuine one, is a person who looks objectively at his/her country, sees the the reprobate and righteous, and in turn praises the good and denounces and moves to alter the bad.

Colin is clearly not trying to forsake his citizenship; thus he must necessarily see more good than bad about the U.S. He's doing what people of integrity do: bringing to bear the resources at their disposal to try to effect corrections of that which they see as errant.

"Everyday citizens" (people who hold neither formal nor overwhelming economic power) like Kaepernick do not deserve scorn and ridicule for doing exactly that. One need not agree with them or him; however, they and he deserve our respect for...

(a) unlike so many people -- especially some members here [1] -- who think of political discourse and conversation as entertainment,
(b) unlike so many who rail about all they think needs correcting yet won't get off their asses and join in discussions among individuals and organizations whereby one can actually be part of effecting positive change [2],​

Colin Kaepernick is not anonymously sitting before a computer screen typing vulgarities and personal slights at every person and idea that offends him or that doesn't align with the partisan rhetoric he heard on his favorite propaganda show. The man is expressing himself peacefully and quietly.

The U.S. has a long tradition of patriots who in their day "stood and were counted," people who openly spoke up about what they felt was wrong with their country and acted to see the ill(s) ended. Just a very few examples and individuals are noted below.

• 1668 Quaker Petition against slavery -- Garret Hendricks, Derick de Graeff, Francis Daniel Pastorius and Abraham up Den Graeff
• Boston Tea Party -- Samuel Adams and the Sons of Liberty
• American Revolution - [you had better know enough of the names that I don't need to list any]
• Civil Rights Movement
  • 1919 Chicago Riots -- 1500+ individuals who lost their lives and/or homes
  • 1939 Lincoln Memorial Concert -- Marian Anderson, Charlie Russel and Eleanor Roosevelt,
  • Montgomery Bus Boycott -- Rosa Parks and thousands of others who daily gave up hours of their lives due to unrecoverable time lost by having to find alternate means of transportation.
  • 1963 March on Washington -- Martin L. King, Jr.
  • 1965 Selma March -- MLK, Jr., Rep. John Lewis, J.L. Chestnut, Stokely Carmichael, Fay Powell, Hosea Williams, and many others.
  • Sit Ins -- I think the Woolworth's Lunch Counter one may be the most famous, but I have no idea of the names of the people who participated in them. I don't know that the things even were formally organized rather than being an organic development.
• Women's Suffrage and Equal Rights Movement
  • Seneca Falls Convention -- Lucretia Mott and Elizabeth Cady Stanton
    
  • 1968 Miss America Protest ("bra burning" -- the protest was real; the bra burning was not) -- Robin Morgan and some several hundred other women
• Vietnam Antiwar Movement
• Anti Globalization/Anti-WTO-IMF Movement
• Labor Movement
  • 1939 GM Tool and Die Workers Strike -- Walter Reuther
• Occupy Wall Street Movement

When I consider Colin Kaepernick's actions at a football game, I'm reminded of the "sit in" movement. That man's protest is nothing other than kneeling quietly and waiting for the game to start. Silence is a powerful thing.


Note:

1. If one feels the need, one can scan for posts in the following threads to find an assortment of direct and indirect examples:
   • Why so little serious debate?
   • You're here...You should consider going there and sharing your ideas where it matters...
   • Policy debate and discussion
   • Policy debate and discussion
   • Have You Heard About the new Ku Ku Klan?
2. Some examples include but are not limited to organizations noted in the following posts:
   -- Policy debate and discussion
   -- You're here...You should consider going there and sharing your ideas where it matters...

Aside:

For as much invective and vitriol as is seen on USMB about freedom of expression, one'd think that not one soul here would countenance any sort of recriminations against Colin Kaepernick.​

Sees more good? Praises the Good? Show me.


Fuck him.

 

[jknowgood]

What is he protesting?

The treatment by police to people of color.

There are more whites killed by police than blacks. Try again.

 

[BlackSand]

??? "For as much invective and vitriol as is seen on USMB about freedom of expression" is how that sentence begins. Have you not see all the "carrying on on USMB about "free speech this" and "free speech that?"

• Threads about free speech and that have the term "free speech" in the thread title -- Search Results for Query: free speech | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

"Free" speech is a statement to its value ...

We can honor and uphold free speech ... But that doesn't make anyone a patriot.
Actions and substantial cost/risk give speech value.
Colin would only be a patriot if he was willing to burden the cost associated with his risk.

Otherwise ... A speech is just empty words.
Where they may be passionate or appealing to some ... The value is decided by the recipient and not the speaker.

.

 

[Billo_Really]

OK, well the police kill more than twice a many White suspects as Black suspects, so his protest is racist and bogus

Why is it bogus? Even if what you said was true, more whites being killed does not negate the deliberate murder of people of color by racist cops.

 

[usmbguest5318]

??? "For as much invective and vitriol as is seen on USMB about freedom of expression" is how that sentence begins. Have you not see all the "carrying on on USMB about "free speech this" and "free speech that?"

• Threads about free speech and that have the term "free speech" in the thread title -- Search Results for Query: free speech | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

"Free" speech is a statement to its value ...

We can honor and uphold free speech ... But that doesn't make anyone a patriot.
Actions and substantial cost/risk give speech value.
Colin would only be a patriot if he was willing to burden the cost associated with his risk.

Otherwise ... A speech is just empty words.
Where they may be passionate or appealing to some ... The value is decided by the recipient and not the speaker.

.

We can honor and uphold free speech ... But that doesn't make anyone a patriot.

Do you think that I was averring or implying that honoring and upholding free speech makes one a patriot? Perhaps you didn't read the OP?

Let me explain....

The thread title speaks of "standing and being counted" and it identifies a theme of patriotism. Later in the OP, I wrote:

The U.S. has a long tradition of patriots who in their day "stood and were counted," people who openly spoke up about what they felt was wrong with their country and acted to see the ill(s) ended.

That's the sentence that provides the "big clue" to realizing that I'm not suggesting or stating that speaking freely is in and of itself patriotic...What makes one's expression patriotic is that one is using one's voice to advocate for improving something one sees as wrong with one's country, and one's advocating in a public way whereby one jeopardizes something of current or future value to oneself.

It's important to realize that there is another key distinguishing factor as goes Colin and other folks like him, or me or you. That factor is that it's not our job to rail against what we feel needs correcting or to advocate for building upon what's extant and good. That is the job of our elected and appointed leaders, but merely doing their job doesn't in and of itself make them patriots, though some of them may indeed be patriots; it just takes more for them to earn that moniker. Nobody deserves to be lauded for simply doing their job, and that's so of every job. I alluded to that concept with this statement:

"Everyday citizens" (people who hold neither formal nor overwhelming economic power) like Kaepernick do not deserve scorn and ridicule for doing exactly that.

At the very end of the OP, I remarked about free speech, as seen from the context of how USMB members remark upon it and the 1st Amendment. I did so with the following statement

Aside:
For as much invective and vitriol as is seen on USMB about freedom of expression, one'd think that not one soul here would countenance any sort of recriminations against Colin Kaepernick.

Notice that I put that word "aside" at the start of the comment. I put that word there because the remark that follows really isn't at all the theme of the OP. It's merely an ancillary thought.​

Hopefully that makes it clear to you that I agree with you that one's merely upholding or exercising free speech doesn't a patriot make. That Colin spoke freely by kneeling during the anthem isn't what I argued makes him a patriot. His kneeling during the anthem, his exercise of free speech and risk to which he exposed himself by freely expressing himself, is merely a foil that illustrates his patriotism and his genuine desire to see his country become a "more perfect union."

 

[Mac1958]

There's a difference between "standing and being counted" and actually doing what it takes to improve things. If that is actually your goal.

They are mutually exclusive.

 

[bripat9643]

When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
-- Earl Nightingale [If you do nothing else with this post, listen to Earl]​

To my mind, a patriot, a genuine one, is a person who looks objectively at his/her country, sees the the reprobate and righteous, and in turn praises the good and denounces and moves to alter the bad.

Colin is clearly not trying to forsake his citizenship; thus he must necessarily see more good than bad about the U.S. He's doing what people of integrity do: bringing to bear the resources at their disposal to try to effect corrections of that which they see as errant.

"Everyday citizens" (people who hold neither formal nor overwhelming economic power) like Kaepernick do not deserve scorn and ridicule for doing exactly that. One need not agree with them or him; however, they and he deserve our respect for...

(a) unlike so many people -- especially some members here [1] -- who think of political discourse and conversation as entertainment,
(b) unlike so many who rail about all they think needs correcting yet won't get off their asses and join in discussions among individuals and organizations whereby one can actually be part of effecting positive change [2],​

Colin Kaepernick is not anonymously sitting before a computer screen typing vulgarities and personal slights at every person and idea that offends him or that doesn't align with the partisan rhetoric he heard on his favorite propaganda show. The man is expressing himself peacefully and quietly.

The U.S. has a long tradition of patriots who in their day "stood and were counted," people who openly spoke up about what they felt was wrong with their country and acted to see the ill(s) ended. Just a very few examples and individuals are noted below.

• 1668 Quaker Petition against slavery -- Garret Hendricks, Derick de Graeff, Francis Daniel Pastorius and Abraham up Den Graeff
• Boston Tea Party -- Samuel Adams and the Sons of Liberty
• American Revolution - [you had better know enough of the names that I don't need to list any]
• Civil Rights Movement
  • 1919 Chicago Riots -- 1500+ individuals who lost their lives and/or homes
  • 1939 Lincoln Memorial Concert -- Marian Anderson, Charlie Russel and Eleanor Roosevelt,
  • Montgomery Bus Boycott -- Rosa Parks and thousands of others who daily gave up hours of their lives due to unrecoverable time lost by having to find alternate means of transportation.
  • 1963 March on Washington -- Martin L. King, Jr.
  • 1965 Selma March -- MLK, Jr., Rep. John Lewis, J.L. Chestnut, Stokely Carmichael, Fay Powell, Hosea Williams, and many others.
  • Sit Ins -- I think the Woolworth's Lunch Counter one may be the most famous, but I have no idea of the names of the people who participated in them. I don't know that the things even were formally organized rather than being an organic development.
• Women's Suffrage and Equal Rights Movement
  • Seneca Falls Convention -- Lucretia Mott and Elizabeth Cady Stanton
    
  • 1968 Miss America Protest ("bra burning" -- the protest was real; the bra burning was not) -- Robin Morgan and some several hundred other women
• Vietnam Antiwar Movement
• Anti Globalization/Anti-WTO-IMF Movement
• Labor Movement
  • 1939 GM Tool and Die Workers Strike -- Walter Reuther
• Occupy Wall Street Movement

When I consider Colin Kaepernick's actions at a football game, I'm reminded of the "sit in" movement. That man's protest is nothing other than kneeling quietly and waiting for the game to start. Silence is a powerful thing.


Note:

1. If one feels the need, one can scan for posts in the following threads to find an assortment of direct and indirect examples:
   • Why so little serious debate?
   • You're here...You should consider going there and sharing your ideas where it matters...
   • Policy debate and discussion
   • Policy debate and discussion
   • Have You Heard About the new Ku Ku Klan?
2. Some examples include but are not limited to organizations noted in the following posts:
   -- Policy debate and discussion
   -- You're here...You should consider going there and sharing your ideas where it matters...

Aside:

For as much invective and vitriol as is seen on USMB about freedom of expression, one'd think that not one soul here would countenance any sort of recriminations against Colin Kaepernick.​

Another lame attempt by a leftwinger to claim that denouncing America is patriotic.

See how easy it was to explode your idiotic theory? That shows how truly stupid it is.

 

[LeftofLeft]

Kapernick is today's Rosa Parks.

Rosa Parks and every citizen is entitled to equal opportunity and access to public services such as taxpayer-funded transportation. Rosa Parks nor any other US Citizen is entitled to a starting QB position in the NFL at $1M or more per year.

 

[bodecea]

What is he protesting?

The treatment by police to people of color.

OK, well the police kill more than twice a many White suspects as Black suspects, so his protest is racist and bogus

What makes you think he isn't protesting that also?

 

[bripat9643]

Kapernick is today's Rosa Parks.

 

[Billo_Really]

Rosa Parks and every citizen is entitled to equal opportunity and access to public services such as taxpayer-funded transportation. Rosa Parks nor any other US Citizen is entitled to a starting QB position in the NFL at $1M or more per year.

Every citizen has the Constitutional right to address their greivence to government. Both Rosa and Colin, did just that. They both are protesting institutionalized racism.

 

[Billo_Really]

There are more whites killed by police than blacks. Try again.

Even if that was true, it doesn't nagate the deliberate murder of blacks by racist cops.

 

[bodecea]

Kapernick is today's Rosa Parks.

They hated and laughed at her too.

 

[bripat9643]

Rosa Parks and every citizen is entitled to equal opportunity and access to public services such as taxpayer-funded transportation. Rosa Parks nor any other US Citizen is entitled to a starting QB position in the NFL at $1M or more per year.

Every citizen has the Constitutional right to address their greivence to government. Both Rosa and Colin, did just that. They both are protesting institutionalized racism.

They can protest all they like, and we can stay home or change the channel. If their employers tell them to knock it off or face the consequences, that is perfectly Constitutional.

 

[bripat9643]

Oh so now all cops are racist. You really are a dumb fuck. Why don't you worry about black on black killings? The real problem? Liberals want to keep blacks uneducated and on welfare. So you get their vote. The Democrat party, the real racist party.

Why don't you comment on the problem, instead of trying to hijack and derail the conversation on to another subject?

The problem is disrespectful assholes like Kaepernick and those who believe the Constitution protects what he's doing.

 

[Billo_Really]

They can protest all they like, and we can stay home or change the channel. If their employers tell them to knock it off or face the consequences, that is perfectly Constitutional.

There is no Constitutional right to fire someone exercising a Constitutional right.