Something that I think deserves it's own thread.

[dblack]

Your inability to respond cogently to the actual content of the post shows why the GOP is not "conservative" but "reactionary" and that the only thing driving your politics, like all reactionaries, is anger and hate.

mkay

 

[Orangecat]

The real problem is the entire federal government.
It's inhabited by career politicians, many of whom are so old that they can't function effectively.
The entrenched deep state has become a self-perpetuating bureaucracy that knows it can outlast and outmaneuver any temporary elected figurehead.
The debt is approaching exponential growth, and no one has the balls to put a dent in the annual deficit, much less stop more debt from accumulating year after year.
Big money gets people elected, and big money gets its way.
We borrow trillions to finance foreign bullshit that isn't our concern, while our own citizens are drowning in inflated costs of living.

 

[Thunk]

If you'll check Trump's first budget was passed by a Republican House and Senate.

OUCHEEE!

If you'd learn to read you'd have seen I already responded to such rubbish!

OUCHEEE!

 

[dblack]

The bit I find interesting is that the partisan drones hate third party voters even more than they hate the other party. That's just weird.

 

[Oddball]

Can you be more clear? What is a "moving away" motivation?

I'm trying to get people to wake up and reject the lesser-of-two-evils scam. I'm saying vote for someone you want to lead us. Don't vote for someone you know isn't any good, in some ham-handed attempt to prevent someone you're afraid of from winning. And if you can't think of anyone you want to lead us, for fuck's sake don't vote. It's far better than voting for someone bad on purpose.

"Moving away" is things like "I want to lose weight" and "I want to quit smoking".....Neither of which orients people in the direction of anything that they gain by doing so.

Telling people to quit voting for shitty candidates gives them nothing to be in favor of.....Where do they go?...Where do they direct their attention and energy?

 

[dblack]

Telling people to quit voting for shitty candidates gives them nothing to be in favor of.....Where do they go?...Where do they direct their attention and energy?

When being "offered" two shitty choices, rejecting both is something to be in favor of. If one party wants to cut off your left hand, and one party wants to cut off your right hand, are you going think "gee, I'm right handed so I better vote for the party that lets me keep my right hand"? Or are you going to find someone else to vote for?

It's not up to me to tell you who that would be. Write someone in if you have to. Just don't vote for the duopoly because the duopoly says you must. They're lying.

 

[Oddball]

When being "offered" two shitty choices, rejecting both is something to be in favor of. If one party wants to cut off your left hand, and one party wants to cut off your right hand, are you going think "gee, I'm right handed so I better vote for the party that lets me keep my right hand"? Or are you going to find someone else to vote for?

It's not up to me to tell you who that would be. Write someone in if you have to. Just don't vote for the duopoly because the duopoly says you must. They're lying.

So you have nothing of value to offer in exchange for not voting for this or that.

Until you can do that, all your mewling about LO2E is just farts in the wind.

 

[dblack]

So you have nothing of value to offer in exchange for not voting for this or that.

Why would you need something "in exchange"??? What do you think you're getting of value in voting for a shitty candidate on purpose?

Until you can do that, all your mewling about LO2E is just farts in the wind.

I don't think so. Lots of people are beginning to see the futility of it.

 

[Oddball]

Why would you need something "in exchange"???

Because people are motivated to act by perceived gain, as you've already admitted.

What do you think you're getting of value in voting for a shitty candidate on purpose?

Ask the person voting for the shitty candidate....You've never really done that IRL, have you?

 

[dblack]

Ask the person voting for the shitty candidate....You've never really done that IRL, have you?

Absolutely I have. Every time someone gives me the lesser-of-two-evils bs. But all they can ever cite for a reason is the fear-mongering. "I have to vote for Trump, because Biden is going to rape all our children!" or "I have to vote Biden, because Trump is Hitler 2.0". They're not voting FOR anything. They *think* they've voting against something, but our system doesn't work that way.

That's why your "motivation" angle falls flat. They're not voting to gain anything as it is. They're just voting in the vain hope that they'll lose less. The whole thing is a losing proposition. We've got to stop.

 

[Oddball]

Absolutely I have. Every time someone gives me the lesser-of-two-evils bs. But all they can ever cite for a reason is the fear-mongering. "I have to vote for Trump, because Biden is going to rape all our children!" or "I have to vote Biden, because Trump is Hitler 2.0". They're not voting FOR anything. They *think* they've voting against something, but our system doesn't work that way.

That's why your "motivation" angle falls flat. They're not voting to gain anything as it is. They're just voting in the vain hope that they'll lose less. The whole thing is a losing proposition. We've got to stop.

As a bartender in dead-red Trumpster country, I've talked to a lot of them and next to none of them have said anything like that.

Most of them talk about a secure border, no new wars, standing up to China and the freeloaders in Europe, bringing back industry and jobs from abroad, cheap energy, a relatively stable economy, and so on....IOW, things that they want.

I tell them why I don't vote at all, let alone for Trump, go over all the foolishness of Trump's regime that keep me on the sidelines, and they're good with it....Some tepidly try to sway me over, but still understand in the end....Were I still silly enough to be LP, I'd talk about whatever mutts they're propping up now....What -in my view- would be a better choice.

 

[dblack]

As a bartender in dead-red Trumpster country, I've talked to a lot of them and next to none of them have said anything like that.

Were I still silly enough to be LP, I'd talk about whatever mutts they're propping up now....What -in my view- would be a better choice.

That's why you don't hear the LO2E line, because that's when they whip it out. When you can convince them that there are better candidates, they say, "but they can't win, so I'll vote for the lesser.."

That's why I don't offer up alternatives. It's pointless. Until we can break people out of the two party lo2e mindset, or we render it null and void with ranked choice voting, we're going to be stuck with whatever crap the duopoly serves up.

 

[FA_Q2]

You know damn well that if Biden or Obama had banned bump stocks, gave $500 Billion to black communities or funded gender studies, you'd all be screaming your heads off.
So what keeps you from screaming your heads off about Trump?

Fact.

And the real proof that Trump has turned so many brains on the right to pure mush.

 

[FA_Q2]

You will see immediate pushback from conservatives if Trump or anyone else goes on a spending spree.

 

[FA_Q2]

The bit I find interesting is that the partisan drones hate third party voters even more than they hate the other party. That's just weird.

Because they see us as traitors, people that they own but refuse to go along.

Every time a politician looses the idiots cant look at why they are unable to attract voters because that would represent accountability. They cant look to the other side, they are obviously the 'enemy.' So they look at third party voters and blame them. Its like a child that complains the table hit them after they run into it. Clearly it is not something they are doing wrong.

 

[FA_Q2]

That's why you don't hear the LO2E line, because that's when they whip it out. When you can convince them that there are better candidates, they say, "but they can't win, so I'll vote for the lesser.."

That's why I don't offer up alternatives. It's pointless. Until we can break people out of the two party lo2e mindset, or we render it null and void with ranked choice voting, we're going to be stuck with whatever crap the duopoly serves up.

The problem is that the LOE2 is not entirely false. If I have a politician that represents 20% of my stances and another that represents 5% and a third that represents 70% but has, literally, a zero percent chance of taking power then there really is a clear choice.

It is not false to say so either, our system really is set up to force 2 major parties as the primary center of power. Ideology and a strict reading of the law might say that a third party is a possibility but we really cant argue with over 200 years of history and fact.

And thus your second option, changing the system itself really is the only real option here. Indeed, even ranked choice voting is not going to lead to a viable third party IMHO. Instead it is going to force the 2 existing parties to change the underlying policy prescriptions and stances to avoid such a thing from happening. Without changes to how we vote, they do not actually have to change.

What drives me to the third parties at the moment though is the stark reality that there is no party that even represents 20% of what I want. There is almost no difference in policy between the parties, just rhetoric and ancillary bullshit. Both spend the same, both have the same view on governmental powers, both have the same stance on trade and immigration (the right just has a lot of rhetoric against it with no real solutions) and both have the same view that rights only exist when they are convenient for the government.

 

[YoursTruly]

What did they spend money on? Was it for war and COVID, or was it for useless green projects and Pakistani transgender studies?

People will accept overspending during emergencies, but Democrats blow money on frivilous shit. They blow TRILLIONS on it.

Covid and the war on terror were both made up reasons to spend money. Operation warp speed. That's Trumps trillion dollar baby. His Platinum Plan, that's his 1/2 a trillion dollar baby. And all that crap that was put into every one of Trumps omnibus bills, those are his babies too.

Blame the left for their spending all you want. And I'll be right there supporting every words you say. Just as long as you know the right spends just as frivolously as the left.

 

[YoursTruly]

Because they see us as traitors, people that they own but refuse to go along.

Every time a politician looses the idiots cant look at why they are unable to attract voters because that would represent accountability. They cant look to the other side, they are obviously the 'enemy.' So they look at third party voters and blame them. Its like a child that complains the table hit them after they run into it. Clearly it is not something they are doing wrong.

I'll be so glad when the LP finally gets rid of those pro drug, pro tranny people and bring some sanity back to that party. The Mises people took over a couple of years ago, and was supposed to bring the focus back economics, monetary policy and things that go a lot of peoples attention.
But I haven't seen any real strides made yet.
The R & D's have built a mountain for them to climb, so I don't see them being viable anytime soon. That guy who stripped on the stage of the LP's convention, was my final straw with them.

 

[YoursTruly]

The problem is that the LOE2 is not entirely false. If I have a politician that represents 20% of my stances and another that represents 5% and a third that represents 70% but has, literally, a zero percent chance of taking power then there really is a clear choice.

It is not false to say so either, our system really is set up to force 2 major parties as the primary center of power. Ideology and a strict reading of the law might say that a third party is a possibility but we really cant argue with over 200 years of history and fact.

And thus your second option, changing the system itself really is the only real option here. Indeed, even ranked choice voting is not going to lead to a viable third party IMHO. Instead it is going to force the 2 existing parties to change the underlying policy prescriptions and stances to avoid such a thing from happening. Without changes to how we vote, they do not actually have to change.

What drives me to the third parties at the moment though is the stark reality that there is no party that even represents 20% of what I want. There is almost no difference in policy between the parties, just rhetoric and ancillary bullshit. Both spend the same, both have the same view on governmental powers, both have the same stance on trade and immigration (the right just has a lot of rhetoric against it with no real solutions) and both have the same view that rights only exist when they are convenient for the government.

You'd think more Americans would be pissed at only having two real choices in the general election. And be pissed at the way the R & D's have the elections designed so that only they win.
And if someone in a 3rd party starts gaining traction, they change the rules to ensure there's no competition. I've seen both the RNC and the DNC change some of their rules, just to exclude one of their own candidates. Tulsi Gabbard being one of the last to get hit by last minute rules changes, so she couldn't compete in a debate.

And the voters who pay attention just shake their heads and move on. Just ignore how corrupt their own party is.

There was a delegate at the 2012 RNC convention who was practically kidnapped so he couldn't make a deciding vote at one of their convention meetings.

 

[YoursTruly]

Perhaps....But this idea that the democrats are a "center right" party is the stuff of an acid-induced fever dream.

They're such a far left neo-Marxist party, that wouldn't allow the likes of JFK or Daniel Patrick Moynahan in their midst.

I don't see anyone on the left who's is right of center. But I do see a LOT of those on the right who are left of center. Like 80% of them, including Trump.

It makes me wonder if anyone actually understands what stances on the issues should be, if you're right of center.
Banning bump stocks, IMO, is something only an anti 2A liberal would do. Giving 1/2 a trillion dollars to black communities, just because they're black. That's socialism. Which is way left of center. Trump did both of those, but still has a lot of support on the right.
And what's even more puzzling, is that with all the caving Trump did with Pelosi, why TF aren't the left trying to recruit Trump. If he had a democrat badge, they'd be wanting to make him our chancellor.