Zone1 So what is "GENOCIDE" anyway? Does it apply to White S. Afrikaners?

MarathonMike

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This was the internet definition I found for genocide:

the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

If you agree with that definition, then why would you say that South African White people are not the target of genocide? President Trump presented irrefutable proof that White Farmers are being targeted and killed. He played videos of a Black African leader exhorting his followers to kill the White farmer, boil them like frogs, etc. The White farmers have protected themselves with electric fences, drones, dogs, patrols, and they are still killed at 4 times the rate as other S Afrikaners. So what say you? Is the Democrat stance on rejecting White S. African refugees valid? Is their claim of asylum baseless? I say it meets every definition of genocide and their claim for asylum based on being persecuted, is valid.
 
Official definition would probably be something to the effect "targeting a group of humans who share similar and often immutable characteristics for death, often with the end-goal of exterminating them from existence either regionally or globally"
 
Official definition would probably be something to the effect "targeting a group of humans who share similar and often immutable characteristics for death, often with the end-goal of exterminating them from existence either regionally or globally"
Ok, sort of like the definition I posted. Do you think White South Afrikaners are targets of genocide? Do you think their claims for asylum are justified?
 
Official definition would probably be something to the effect "targeting a group of humans who share similar and often immutable characteristics for death, often with the end-goal of exterminating them from existence either regionally or globally"
An exhaustive and definitive definition of Genocide:

The Definitive Definition of Genocide: Origins, Legal Framework, and Scholarly Perspectives​

Before delving into the comprehensive analysis of genocide's definition, it is important to note that the most authoritative and internationally recognized definition comes from the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This legal framework defines genocide as specific acts committed with intent to destroy protected groups, though scholarly and dictionary definitions have continued to evolve alongside this official characterization.

The Origin and Etymology of "Genocide"​

The term "genocide" did not exist prior to World War II. It was specifically coined in 1942 by Polish-Jewish lawyer Raphael Lemkin and first appeared in print in his 1944 book, Axis Rule in Occupied Europe5. Lemkin formed the word by combining geno- from the Greek word for race or tribe with -cide from the Latin word for killing513. In his original formulation, Lemkin defined genocide more broadly than later legal definitions, describing it as "a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves"513.

The Legal Definition: UN Genocide Convention​

The most authoritative definition of genocide is found in Article II of the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (commonly known as the Genocide Convention), which states:


"Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."1691216


This definition was adopted on December 9, 1948, and the Convention entered into force on January 12, 19511. As of January 2019, 150 states had ratified this Convention, signifying its widespread acceptance as the legal standard for defining genocide1.

Key Elements of the Legal Definition​

The Intent Requirement​

The legal definition of genocide emphasizes a critical mental element: the specific intent (dolus specialis) to destroy a protected group15. This special intent distinguishes genocide from other international crimes such as crimes against humanity or war crimes5. According to the UN fact sheet, "to constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group"1.


The intent requirement is particularly significant and often challenging to establish in legal proceedings. As noted in search result 1: "Intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group"1.

Protected Groups​

The Convention limits the definition of genocide to acts targeting four specific types of groups:

  • National groups
  • Ethnical groups
  • Racial groups
  • Religious groups191016
Notably, the definition does not include political groups or what is sometimes termed "cultural genocide"1. This was the result of negotiations and compromise among United Nations Member States while drafting the Convention in 19481.

Specific Acts Constituting Genocide​

The five acts listed in the Convention (killing, causing serious harm, creating destructive living conditions, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children) are specifically enumerated6912. Each of these acts has been further interpreted and clarified through international jurisprudence, particularly by international criminal tribunals914.

Dictionary and General Definitions​

Beyond the legal definition, dictionaries and general usage provide slightly different characterizations of genocide:

  • Merriam-Webster defines genocide as "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group"7.
  • Cambridge Dictionary defines it as "the crime of intentionally destroying part or all of a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group"3.
  • Dictionary.com describes it as "the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group"2.
These definitions often include political and cultural groups, which are not protected under the UN Convention definition.

Scholarly Definitions and Evolution​

The definition of genocide has continued to evolve in scholarly discourse. Search result 13 documents numerous scholarly definitions from 1944 to 2017, showing how understanding of the concept has developed over time.


Leo Kuper, a genocide scholar, acknowledged the limitations of the UN definition but chose to work within its framework: "I shall follow the definition of genocide given in the [UN] Convention. This is not to say that I agree with the definition. On the contrary, I believe a major omission to be in the exclusion of political groups from the list of groups protected"13.


More recent scholarly definitions often expand upon the UN framework. For example, in 2011, historian Uğur Ümit Üngör defined genocide as "a complex process of systematic persecution and annihilation of a group of people by a government... We can speak of genocide when individuals are persecuted and murdered merely on the basis of their presumed or imputed membership in a group rather than on their individual characteristics or participation in certain acts"13.

Legal Application and Interpretation​

The definition of genocide has been incorporated into the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court and has been applied in prosecutions by international tribunals914. Jurisprudence from these courts has helped to clarify various aspects of the definition:

  • The intent to destroy a group "in whole or in part" has been interpreted to mean a substantial part of the group914.
  • Acts of genocide must target members of a group specifically because they belong to that group, though this need not be the sole reason14.
  • Genocidal intent can be inferred from circumstantial evidence when direct evidence is unavailable, but "that inference must be the only reasonable inference available on the evidence"14.

The Significance of Precise Definition​

The precise definition of genocide carries significant implications for international relations, intervention, and justice. As highlighted in search result 8, "Genocide is a word whose meaning should matter." The article argues that diluting or misapplying the term can diminish its significance and hinder effective responses to actual genocides8.


The definition of genocide is particularly important because:

  1. It triggers specific legal obligations for states that have ratified the Genocide Convention, including the duty to prevent and punish genocide1612.
  2. It affects international intervention decisions and policy responses13.
  3. It determines which crimes can be prosecuted as genocide in international tribunals14.

Conclusion​

While the UN Genocide Convention provides the most authoritative and legally binding definition of genocide, the term continues to be defined and understood in various ways by scholars, organizations, and in general usage. The legal definition, with its focus on specific protected groups and the requirement of special intent, remains narrower than some scholarly and dictionary definitions.


The evolution of the definition reflects ongoing efforts to understand and address one of the most serious crimes under international law. Despite variations in definition, there is consensus that genocide represents an extreme form of targeted violence against groups, characterized by an intent to destroy those groups, making precise definition crucial for effective prevention, intervention, and justice.
 
Ok, sort of like the definition I posted. Do you think White South Afrikaners are targets of genocide? Do you think their claims for asylum are justified?
I don't know I'm really educated on the issue in S Africa. I will say though that murdering someone due to their race and openly calling for their deaths, often carried out, certainly sounds like some who have the impulse to engage in genocide if given the chance. These are quite radical people.
 
An exhaustive and definitive definition of Genocide:

The Definitive Definition of Genocide: Origins, Legal Framework, and Scholarly Perspectives​

Before delving into the comprehensive analysis of genocide's definition, it is important to note that the most authoritative and internationally recognized definition comes from the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This legal framework defines genocide as specific acts committed with intent to destroy protected groups, though scholarly and dictionary definitions have continued to evolve alongside this official characterization.

The Origin and Etymology of "Genocide"​

The term "genocide" did not exist prior to World War II. It was specifically coined in 1942 by Polish-Jewish lawyer Raphael Lemkin and first appeared in print in his 1944 book, Axis Rule in Occupied Europe5. Lemkin formed the word by combining geno- from the Greek word for race or tribe with -cide from the Latin word for killing513. In his original formulation, Lemkin defined genocide more broadly than later legal definitions, describing it as "a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves"513.

The Legal Definition: UN Genocide Convention​

The most authoritative definition of genocide is found in Article II of the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (commonly known as the Genocide Convention), which states:


"Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."1691216


This definition was adopted on December 9, 1948, and the Convention entered into force on January 12, 19511. As of January 2019, 150 states had ratified this Convention, signifying its widespread acceptance as the legal standard for defining genocide1.

Key Elements of the Legal Definition​

The Intent Requirement​

The legal definition of genocide emphasizes a critical mental element: the specific intent (dolus specialis) to destroy a protected group15. This special intent distinguishes genocide from other international crimes such as crimes against humanity or war crimes5. According to the UN fact sheet, "to constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group"1.


The intent requirement is particularly significant and often challenging to establish in legal proceedings. As noted in search result 1: "Intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group"1.

Protected Groups​

The Convention limits the definition of genocide to acts targeting four specific types of groups:

  • National groups
  • Ethnical groups
  • Racial groups
  • Religious groups191016
Notably, the definition does not include political groups or what is sometimes termed "cultural genocide"1. This was the result of negotiations and compromise among United Nations Member States while drafting the Convention in 19481.

Specific Acts Constituting Genocide​

The five acts listed in the Convention (killing, causing serious harm, creating destructive living conditions, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children) are specifically enumerated6912. Each of these acts has been further interpreted and clarified through international jurisprudence, particularly by international criminal tribunals914.

Dictionary and General Definitions​

Beyond the legal definition, dictionaries and general usage provide slightly different characterizations of genocide:

  • Merriam-Webster defines genocide as "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group"7.
  • Cambridge Dictionary defines it as "the crime of intentionally destroying part or all of a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group"3.
  • Dictionary.com describes it as "the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group"2.
These definitions often include political and cultural groups, which are not protected under the UN Convention definition.

Scholarly Definitions and Evolution​

The definition of genocide has continued to evolve in scholarly discourse. Search result 13 documents numerous scholarly definitions from 1944 to 2017, showing how understanding of the concept has developed over time.


Leo Kuper, a genocide scholar, acknowledged the limitations of the UN definition but chose to work within its framework: "I shall follow the definition of genocide given in the [UN] Convention. This is not to say that I agree with the definition. On the contrary, I believe a major omission to be in the exclusion of political groups from the list of groups protected"13.


More recent scholarly definitions often expand upon the UN framework. For example, in 2011, historian Uğur Ümit Üngör defined genocide as "a complex process of systematic persecution and annihilation of a group of people by a government... We can speak of genocide when individuals are persecuted and murdered merely on the basis of their presumed or imputed membership in a group rather than on their individual characteristics or participation in certain acts"13.

Legal Application and Interpretation​

The definition of genocide has been incorporated into the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court and has been applied in prosecutions by international tribunals914. Jurisprudence from these courts has helped to clarify various aspects of the definition:

  • The intent to destroy a group "in whole or in part" has been interpreted to mean a substantial part of the group914.
  • Acts of genocide must target members of a group specifically because they belong to that group, though this need not be the sole reason14.
  • Genocidal intent can be inferred from circumstantial evidence when direct evidence is unavailable, but "that inference must be the only reasonable inference available on the evidence"14.

The Significance of Precise Definition​

The precise definition of genocide carries significant implications for international relations, intervention, and justice. As highlighted in search result 8, "Genocide is a word whose meaning should matter." The article argues that diluting or misapplying the term can diminish its significance and hinder effective responses to actual genocides8.


The definition of genocide is particularly important because:

  1. It triggers specific legal obligations for states that have ratified the Genocide Convention, including the duty to prevent and punish genocide1612.
  2. It affects international intervention decisions and policy responses13.
  3. It determines which crimes can be prosecuted as genocide in international tribunals14.

Conclusion​

While the UN Genocide Convention provides the most authoritative and legally binding definition of genocide, the term continues to be defined and understood in various ways by scholars, organizations, and in general usage. The legal definition, with its focus on specific protected groups and the requirement of special intent, remains narrower than some scholarly and dictionary definitions.


The evolution of the definition reflects ongoing efforts to understand and address one of the most serious crimes under international law. Despite variations in definition, there is consensus that genocide represents an extreme form of targeted violence against groups, characterized by an intent to destroy those groups, making precise definition crucial for effective prevention, intervention, and justice.
The second part of the discussion is whether or not you believe that is happening to White S. Afrikaners?
 
This was the internet definition I found for genocide:

the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

If you agree with that definition, then why would you say that South African White people are not the target of genocide? President Trump presented irrefutable proof that White Farmers are being targeted and killed. He played videos of a Black African leader exhorting his followers to kill the White farmer, boil them like frogs, etc. The White farmers have protected themselves with electric fences, drones, dogs, patrols, and they are still killed at 4 times the rate as other S Afrikaners. So what say you? Is the Democrat stance on rejecting White S. African refugees valid? Is their claim of asylum baseless? I say it meets every definition of genocide and their claim for asylum based on being persecuted, is valid.
As far as I can see, "genocide" can only exist here if they manipulate the statistics massively.
 
This was the internet definition I found for genocide:

the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

If you agree with that definition, then why would you say that South African White people are not the target of genocide? President Trump presented irrefutable proof that White Farmers are being targeted and killed. He played videos of a Black African leader exhorting his followers to kill the White farmer, boil them like frogs, etc. The White farmers have protected themselves with electric fences, drones, dogs, patrols, and they are still killed at 4 times the rate as other S Afrikaners. So what say you? Is the Democrat stance on rejecting White S. African refugees valid? Is their claim of asylum baseless? I say it meets every definition of genocide and their claim for asylum based on being persecuted, is valid.
 
There is no genocide going on in South Africa, and the South Africans singing a liberation song is not genocide either. Its time some white people stepped this crap. You're being dishonest about this entire situation because you're mad that blacks control South Africa and whites can't get the resources as easily.
 
There is no genocide going on in South Africa, and the South Africans singing a liberation song is not genocide either. Its time some white people stepped this crap. You're being dishonest about this entire situation because you're mad that blacks control South Africa and whites can't get the resources as easily.
So you believe the White S. Africans do not have a valid claim for asylum. Got it.
 
As far as I can see, "genocide" can only exist here if they manipulate the statistics massively.
I've never seen a numerical value assigned to the term 'genocide'. There is a false assumption that current genocides must be similar in number to past genocides like the Holocaust.
 
Adding to the mix are the "Coloured" and "Asian" South Africans.
Where do they place in the growing racial tensions and violence ?
Will they need asylum also?
 
I've never seen a numerical value assigned to the term 'genocide'. There is a false assumption that current genocides must be similar in number to past genocides like the Holocaust.

That's not how it works.

"Genocide" is the attempted killing of a people.

So, if there were a genocide against the Afrikaans then there would be evidence that this were so. Like statistics that show a targeted campaign of violence against that particular group.

There isn't.

South Africa's murder rate is about 45 per 100,000. The US is at about 6 per 100,000

Now, farmers generally live in safer places.



For example Kimberley right on the eastern edge of Northern Cape is much safer than Jo-burg, Pretoria, Cape Town, Durban etc. It's a diamond mining place. Still unsafe compared to the countryside. It's somewhere between 15-32 murders per 100,00 people, whereas Jo-burg has places at 200-300 per 100,000 people.

There are no race crime statistics in South Africa.


"White farmers have been murdered in South Africa. But those murders account for less than 1% of more than 27,000 annual murders nationwide."

Less than 1% is probably much less than 1%.

"The South African Police Service’s crime report for the period from April 1, 2022, to March 31, 2023, shows there were 51 murders on farms of a total of 27,494 murders nationwide. But the data has limitations."

So, 51 murders on farms *maybe, and not all of those murders would have been white people, because black people work on farms too. And many Afrikaans aren't farmers. Maybe 44,000 from 2.7 million people.

Afrikaaners live mostly in the west of the country where murder rates are generally lower.




The statistics suggest Trump is wrong. Violence exists in South Africa, it affects everyone, but it affects poor black South Africans far more than anyone else.
 
There is no genocide going on in South Africa, and the South Africans singing a liberation song is not genocide either. Its time some white people stepped this crap. You're being dishonest about this entire situation because you're mad that blacks control South Africa and whites can't get the resources as easily.
Hahaha
From millions of whites to a few. That is genocide or ethnic cleansing.

Since England left South Africa, it has become a tragic failure of a country.

Thank God it has resources the Africans can sell without putting any of there labor or thought into. If they did the country would starve to death in a month
 
There is no genocide going on in South Africa, and the South Africans singing a liberation song is not genocide either. Its time some white people stepped this crap. You're being dishonest about this entire situation because you're mad that blacks control South Africa and whites can't get the resources as easily.
Better yet, show us the exact accomplishments as a country South Africa has achieved since they began ruling themselves.

I bet im2 will not respond. Im2 cant because im2 has zero facts. Im2 is only here to lie.

Please correct me if I am wrong im2
 
This was the internet definition I found for genocide:

the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

If you agree with that definition, then why would you say that South African White people are not the target of genocide? President Trump presented irrefutable proof that White Farmers are being targeted and killed. He played videos of a Black African leader exhorting his followers to kill the White farmer, boil them like frogs, etc. The White farmers have protected themselves with electric fences, drones, dogs, patrols, and they are still killed at 4 times the rate as other S Afrikaners. So what say you? Is the Democrat stance on rejecting White S. African refugees valid? Is their claim of asylum baseless? I say it meets every definition of genocide and their claim for asylum based on being persecuted, is valid.
The Left will continue to defend South Africa from having stadium full of people chanting death to White people while at the same time insisting they have never acted on that.

Simply amazing
 
15th post
The Left will continue to defend South Africa from having stadium full of people chanting death to White people while at the same time insisting they have never acted on that.

Simply amazing
Dumb cons deny the genocide in Gaza, but believe there is a genocide in SA. Crazy.
:cuckoo: :spinner: :uhoh3:
 
The second part of the discussion is whether or not you believe that is happening to White S. Afrikaners?
I do not.

I also think that the powers that be ensured that they could, in essence, declare any group as being 'genocided' based on the language.

You'll note that in all of that, not one time was a specific number mentioned.

For all that those definitions rate, if a nation were to take out a chess club with a membership of 3 people, that can be declared a 'genocide'.

I disregard the term out of hand for that very reason.

Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, all can be said to be practicing 'Genocide' in their attitudes and actions regarding Israel.

That is what "From the River to the Sea" means.
 
I do not.

I also think that the powers that be ensured that they could, in essence, declare any group as being 'genocided' based on the language.

You'll note that in all of that, not one time was a specific number mentioned.

For all that those definitions rate, if a nation were to take out a chess club with a membership of 3 people, that can be declared a 'genocide'.

I disregard the term out of hand for that very reason.

Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, all can be said to be practicing 'Genocide' in their attitudes and actions regarding Israel.

That is what "From the River to the Sea" means.
What about the regime actually committing genocide?
 
What about the regime actually committing genocide?

You mean Iran? It's being worked on.

But I already told you and the rest of the forum.

The very Term "Genocide" is meaningless. I even gave an example.
 
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