So the Oceans are rising are they?

[hendrickL]

I think it's true, we better be prepared.

 

[IanC]

I think it's true, we better be prepared.

what do you think is true? that sea level is rising? or that sea level rise is accelerating?

pretty much everyone agrees that there has been a small amount of increase in sea levels, just as pretty much everyone agrees that there has been a small amount of global temperature increase. of course the two go hand in hand. thermal expansion is the main cause of sea level rise.

when you say we need to be prepared, are you talking about the <1 foot rise per century track that we are on presently or are you talking about the exaggerated claims of Hansen or Gore or whomever that predict meters of rise?

 

[RollingThunder]

Yes, basically that is his claim.

No, that's just the 'best' (but still very flawed) interpretation that a couple of idiots like you two can come up with when you're so totally ignorant about the whole subject. The greenhouse effect is an established scientific fact and carbon dioxide is a powerful greenhouse gas. Your denial of basic physics only highlights what politically motivated morons you are.

Describe the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics in your own words. No cut and paste. In your own words bucko.

Why? To further demonstrate what a clueless fool you are?

The 2nd Law is a statement about entropy that can be stated a number of ways but I'm sure the specific formulation you're fishing for states that heat always transfers from something hotter to something cooler. Some of the more idiotic and scientifically ignorant denier cult douche-bags imagine this means that the cooler atmosphere cannot warm the warmer Earth but that just demonstrates how little they, or you, understand the physics involved.

It actually works like this. The sun warms the Earth and, in the natural course of things, the Earth and its atmosphere radiate away into space almost all of the heat that is received from the sun so the average temperature of the Earth stays more or less constant. Pre-industrial levels of the main greenhouse gases served to keep the Earth about 33° C warmer than it would be without them. Greenhouse gases, like CO2, methane and water vapor, absorb some of the escaping infrared radiation and re-radiate it in all directions with about half going back towards the ground and half going up to be absorbed and re-radiated again and again until some of the energy escapes to space. Some of the absorbed infrared energy is also transfered through conduction to nearby oxygen and nitrogen molecules and warms the atmosphere. So the greenhouse gases make the Earth warmer, like a blanket conserving body heat, and, as humans have pushed up CO2 levels by 40%, it is like adding another blanket and so we have global warming. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics entropic energy transfer is from the Sun to the Earth to the heat sink of empty space and the atmosphere acts as an insulator to retain some of heat that the Earth is constantly receiving from the sun.

 

[wirebender]

It actually works like this. The sun warms the Earth and, in the natural course of things, the Earth and its atmosphere radiate away into space almost all of the heat that is received from the sun so the average temperature of the Earth stays more or less constant. Pre-industrial levels of the main greenhouse gases served to keep the Earth about 33° C warmer than it would be without them.

You start losing it about there. When you compare the daytime temperature of the earth to the daytime temperature of the moon which recieves roughly the same amount of solar energy per square meter that the earth does, it becomes abundantly clear that the atmosphere serves to keep us cool, not warm us.

Secondly, we know that there are a great many pre industrial periods within the past half a million years or so which were considerably warmer than the present without higher atmospheric CO2 concentrations. This alone makes claims of CO2 highly suspect. The roman warm period and the medieval warm periods were both global and warmer than the present and both periods warmed more quickly than the present. Again, this makes any claim that CO2 is to blame suspect.

Greenhouse gases, like CO2, methane and water vapor, absorb some of the escaping infrared radiation and re-radiate it in all directions with about half going back towards the ground and half going up to be absorbed and re-radiated again and again until some of the energy escapes to space. Some of the absorbed infrared energy is also transfered through conduction to nearby oxygen and nitrogen molecules and warms the atmosphere.

Couple of serious mistakes there. First, oxygen is invisible to IR. It has no capacity to absorb IR. It is great at absorbing UV, but alas, can not absorb IR so no energy is transferred via CO2 to O2.

Your second crucial mistake is the fact that you don't understand that if any energy is being transferred from one gas to another, it is being transferred from nitrogen to CO2. Nitrogen, unlike CO2 is not a trace gas in the atmosphere. In fact, some 75% of the atmosphere is nitrogen. As an absorber of IR, nitrogen is a couple of hundred times more potent than CO2 but like CO2, it has no capacity to trap or retain IR. That being said, the sheer abundance of nitrogen would make its heat capacity many orders of magnitude greater than CO2 and therefore any transfer of energy would be from nitrogen to CO2 if such a thing were happening (which it is not).

Your third error is the simple understanding that energy the earth has absorbed from the sun is what warms the atmosphere. The earth can not reabsorb energy it has emitted and be further warmed. A passively heated object (the atmosphere) can not warm its source of heat (the earth) without the input of additional work.

So the greenhouse gases make the Earth warmer, like a blanket conserving body heat, and, as humans have pushed up CO2 levels by 40%, it is like adding another blanket and so we have global warming.

The atmosphere keeps the earth from burning under the sun and like a blanket, slows the escape of heat during night time hours. And just as a blanket can not multiply your body heat and give you a fever, the atmosphere can not multiply the heat the earth recieves from the sun.

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics entropic energy transfer is from the Sun to the Earth to the heat sink of empty space and the atmosphere acts as an insulator to retain some of heat that the Earth is constantly receiving from the sun.

Again, the atmosphere keeps the earth from burning during the day and slows the escape of heat during the night time hours. You should somehow make yourself aware of the fact that slowing the escape of heat is an entirely different thing from warming.

 

[Old Rocks]

Bender, you are one silly fool. Sematics is certainly not your strong suit.

You wish to argue the subject, go talk to the physicists who worked all of this out over a century ago. You can find how GHGs work on many differant sites. And your analysis is lacking, to say the least. I suggest you retake grade school science.

 

[Old Rocks]

A 20th century acceleration in global sea-level rise

GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH LETTERS, VOL. 33, L01602, 4 PP., 2006
doi:10.1029/2005GL024826

A 20th century acceleration in global sea-level rise

A 20th century acceleration in global sea-level rise
John A. Church

CSIRO Marine and Atmospheric Research, Hobart, Tasmania, Australia

Antarctic Climate and Ecosystems Cooperative Research Centre, Hobart, Tasmania, Australia

Neil J. White

CSIRO Marine and Atmospheric Research, Hobart, Tasmania, Australia

Antarctic Climate and Ecosystems Cooperative Research Centre, Hobart, Tasmania, Australia

Multi-century sea-level records and climate models indicate an acceleration of sea-level rise, but no 20th century acceleration has previously been detected. A reconstruction of global sea level using tide-gauge data from 1950 to 2000 indicates a larger rate of rise after 1993 and other periods of rapid sea-level rise but no significant acceleration over this period. Here, we extend the reconstruction of global mean sea level back to 1870 and find a sea-level rise from January 1870 to December 2004 of 195 mm, a 20th century rate of sea-level rise of 1.7 ± 0.3 mm yr&#8722;1 and a significant acceleration of sea-level rise of 0.013 ± 0.006 mm yr&#8722;2. This acceleration is an important confirmation of climate change simulations which show an acceleration not previously observed. If this acceleration remained constant then the 1990 to 2100 rise would range from 280 to 340 mm, consistent with projections in the IPCC TAR.

 

[Old Rocks]

Acceleration of the contribution of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets to sea level rise

Acceleration of the contribution of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets to sea level rise

Acceleration of the contribution of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets to sea level rise
E. Rignot

Earth System Science, University of California, Irvine, California, USA

Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, California, USA

I. Velicogna

Earth System Science, University of California, Irvine, California, USA

Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, California, USA

M. R. van den Broeke

Institute for Marine and Atmospheric Research, Utrecht University, Utrecht, Netherlands

A. Monaghan

National Center for Atmospheric Research, Boulder, Colorado, USA

J. Lenaerts

Institute for Marine and Atmospheric Research, Utrecht University, Utrecht, Netherlands

Ice sheet mass balance estimates have improved substantially in recent years using a variety of techniques, over different time periods, and at various levels of spatial detail. Considerable disparity remains between these estimates due to the inherent uncertainties of each method, the lack of detailed comparison between independent estimates, and the effect of temporal modulations in ice sheet surface mass balance. Here, we present a consistent record of mass balance for the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets over the past two decades, validated by the comparison of two independent techniques over the last 8 years: one differencing perimeter loss from net accumulation, and one using a dense time series of time-variable gravity. We find excellent agreement between the two techniques for absolute mass loss and acceleration of mass loss. In 2006, the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets experienced a combined mass loss of 475 ± 158 Gt/yr, equivalent to 1.3 ± 0.4 mm/yr sea level rise. Notably, the acceleration in ice sheet loss over the last 18 years was 21.9 ± 1 Gt/yr 2 for Greenland and 14.5 ± 2 Gt/yr 2 for Antarctica, for a combined total of 36.3 ± 2 Gt/yr 2. This acceleration is 3 times larger than for mountain glaciers and ice caps (12 ± 6 Gt/yr 2). If this trend continues, ice sheets will be the dominant contributor to sea level rise in the 21st century.

 

[Old Rocks]

AGU: A 20th century acceleration of sea

A 20th century acceleration of sea&#8208;level rise in New Zealand

W. Roland Gehrels

School of Geography, University of Plymouth, Plymouth, UK

Bruce W. Hayward

Geomarine Research, St. Johns, Auckland, New Zealand

Rewi M. Newnham

School of Geography, University of Plymouth, Plymouth, UK

Katherine E. Southall

Department of Geography, Trinity College, University of Dublin, Dublin, Ireland


Sea levels in New Zealand have remained relatively stable throughout the past 7000 years, but salt&#8208;marsh cores from southern New Zealand show evidence of a recent rapid rise. To date and quantify this rise we present a proxy sea&#8208;level record spanning the past 500 years for Pounawea, southeastern New Zealand, based on foraminiferal analyses. Ages for ten sea&#8208;level index points are established from AMS14C, Pb concentrations, stable Pb isotopes, pollen markers, charcoal concentrations and 137Cs. Sea level was rising slowly (0.3 ± 0.3 mm yr&#8722;1) from AD 1500 to AD 1900, but during the 20th century the rate increased to 2.8 ± 0.5 mm yr&#8722;1, in agreement with instrumental measurements commencing in 1924. This is the first sea&#8208;level record from the southern hemisphere showing a significantly higher rate of sea&#8208;level rise during the 20th century as compared with preceding centuries.

 

[Old Rocks]

And another article from the AGU;


Melting ice sheets becoming largest contributor to sea level rise

 

[RollingThunder]

It actually works like this. The sun warms the Earth and, in the natural course of things, the Earth and its atmosphere radiate away into space almost all of the heat that is received from the sun so the average temperature of the Earth stays more or less constant. Pre-industrial levels of the main greenhouse gases served to keep the Earth about 33° C warmer than it would be without them.

You start losing it about there.

You obviously 'lost it' big time quite a while ago.

When you compare the daytime temperature of the earth to the daytime temperature of the moon which recieves roughly the same amount of solar energy per square meter that the earth does, it becomes abundantly clear that the atmosphere serves to keep us cool, not warm us.

LOLOLOLOL....."abundantly clear" only to uneducated, scientifically ignorant retards like you, wiredup&bentover. That's idiotically and laughably wrong.

As is the rest of your nonsense.

Secondly, we know that there are a great many pre industrial periods within the past half a million years or so which were considerably warmer than the present without higher atmospheric CO2 concentrations. This alone makes claims of CO2 highly suspect. The roman warm period and the medieval warm periods were both global and warmer than the present and both periods warmed more quickly than the present. Again, this makes any claim that CO2 is to blame suspect.

LOLOLOL. "We know" obviously refers to you and your fleas, scabies and bedbugs (or, possibly, the other denier cult dingbats, although there doesn't seem to be much difference). But then most of what you imagine you 'know' is total bullshit anyway because you're so obviously severely retarded and dead ignorant.

Greenhouse gases, like CO2, methane and water vapor, absorb some of the escaping infrared radiation and re-radiate it in all directions with about half going back towards the ground and half going up to be absorbed and re-radiated again and again until some of the energy escapes to space. Some of the absorbed infrared energy is also transfered through conduction to nearby oxygen and nitrogen molecules and warms the atmosphere.

Couple of serious mistakes there. First, oxygen is invisible to IR. It has no capacity to absorb IR.

Are you incapable of reading simple words, numbnuts? I said that "some of the absorbed infrared energy is also transfered through conduction to nearby oxygen and nitrogen molecules". Do you even understand that heat = molecular motion and that when a molecule of CO2 absorbs some longwave radiation and increases its energy level, some of that energy will be transferred through conduction to neighboring molecules that don't themselves absorb infrared radiation.

The rest of your post is meaningless, irrelevant nonsense and isn't even worth taking any time to debunk. You are a clueless moron with no knowledge of science.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

There are cities undersea off Cuba, the Caribbean, Japan, India and a host of other places on the planet. It means one of two things: the land fell of the sea rose. If the land fell the wouldn't be much left except rubble, that means the sea must have rose.

Japan&#39;s Ancient Underwater "Pyramid" Mystifies Scholars

http://www.heralddeparis.com/previously-undiscovered-ancient-city-found-on-caribbean-sea-floor/65855

Windows Media Guide | Home




Since these cities date back before recorded time that cam only mean one thing,the SUV is far older than any of us suspect.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

There are cities undersea off Cuba, the Caribbean, Japan, India and a host of other places on the planet. It means one of two things: either the land fell or the sea rose. If the land fell there wouldn't be much left except rubble, that means the sea must have rose.

Japan's Ancient Underwater "Pyramid" Mystifies Scholars

Previously undiscovered ancient city found on Caribbean sea floor | Herald de Paris

Windows Media Guide | Home

Since these cities date back before recorded time that can only mean one thing, the SUV is far older than any of us suspect.

 

[westwall]

Bender, you are one silly fool. Sematics is certainly not your strong suit.

You wish to argue the subject, go talk to the physicists who worked all of this out over a century ago. You can find how GHGs work on many differant sites. And your analysis is lacking, to say the least. I suggest you retake grade school science.

olfraud here's a little bit of advice. Neither you nor trolling blunder can insult us enough to make us go away to avoid your juvenile insults. We enjoy making you look like fools too much and more importantly we enjoy teaching those who wish to learn.

trolling blunder has alienated any who he might have won over by his ignorant insults (which we appreciate) and you did the same a long time ago, so if you wish to be more relevent I suggest you change your style.

 

[westwall]

It actually works like this. The sun warms the Earth and, in the natural course of things, the Earth and its atmosphere radiate away into space almost all of the heat that is received from the sun so the average temperature of the Earth stays more or less constant. Pre-industrial levels of the main greenhouse gases served to keep the Earth about 33° C warmer than it would be without them.

You start losing it about there.

You obviously 'lost it' big time quite a while ago.



LOLOLOLOL....."abundantly clear" only to uneducated, scientifically ignorant retards like you, wiredup&bentover. That's idiotically and laughably wrong.

As is the rest of your nonsense.





LOLOLOL. "We know" obviously refers to you and your fleas, scabies and bedbugs (or, possibly, the other denier cult dingbats, although there doesn't seem to be much difference). But then most of what you imagine you 'know' is total bullshit anyway because you're so obviously severely retarded and dead ignorant.

Greenhouse gases, like CO2, methane and water vapor, absorb some of the escaping infrared radiation and re-radiate it in all directions with about half going back towards the ground and half going up to be absorbed and re-radiated again and again until some of the energy escapes to space. Some of the absorbed infrared energy is also transfered through conduction to nearby oxygen and nitrogen molecules and warms the atmosphere.

Couple of serious mistakes there. First, oxygen is invisible to IR. It has no capacity to absorb IR.

Are you incapable of reading simple words, numbnuts? I said that "some of the absorbed infrared energy is also transfered through conduction to nearby oxygen and nitrogen molecules". Do you even understand that heat = molecular motion and that when a molecule of CO2 absorbs some longwave radiation and increases its energy level, some of that energy will be transferred through conduction to neighboring molecules that don't themselves absorb infrared radiation.

The rest of your post is meaningless, irrelevant nonsense and isn't even worth taking any time to debunk. You are a clueless moron with no knowledge of science.

No, the only ignorant moron with no clue of science is you. Bender is well versed in it. You on the other hand are merely an obnoxious troll with a vainglorious opinion of yourself not backed up by accomplishment.

Let us know when your mom finally kicks you out of the basement you live in.

 

[RollingThunder]

No, the only ignorant moron with no clue of science is you. Bender is well versed in it. You on the other hand are merely an obnoxious troll with a vainglorious opinion of yourself not backed up by accomplishment.

Let us know when your mom finally kicks you out of the basement you live in.

That's another one of your delusions, walleyed. You and wiredup&bentover have demonstrated a deep ignorance of science and the facts. I post scientific facts from actual working climate scientists and peer-reviewed science journals and you post nothing but misinformation and pseudo-science from denier cult blogs.

 

[westwall]

No, the only ignorant moron with no clue of science is you. Bender is well versed in it. You on the other hand are merely an obnoxious troll with a vainglorious opinion of yourself not backed up by accomplishment.

Let us know when your mom finally kicks you out of the basement you live in.

That's another one of your delusions, walleyed. You and wiredup&bentover have demonstrated a deep ignorance of science and the facts. I post scientific facts from actual working climate scientists and peer-reviewed science journals and you post nothing but misinformation and pseudo-science from denier cult blogs.

Really?

Global Warming Effects: Seasonal Timing Shifts | Sustainablog

Who posted that link? Oh yeah it was YOU!

What a clown.

 

[wirebender]

Bender, you are one silly fool. Sematics is certainly not your strong suit.

And you remain unable to offer up any observed evidence to support your claims.

You wish to argue the subject, go talk to the physicists who worked all of this out over a century ago. You can find how GHGs work on many differant sites. And your analysis is lacking, to say the least. I suggest you retake grade school science.

Actually, I prefer to pay attention to modern physicists who state that the greenhouse hypothesis is a steaming pile of crap. Want to see the published peer reviewed papers saying so?

 

[wirebender]

LOLOLOLOL....."abundantly clear" only to uneducated, scientifically ignorant retards like you, wiredup&bentover. That's idiotically and laughably wrong.

Really? Then explain how it is wrong. The moon has no atmosphere and has a daytime temperature of over 250 degrees F. The earth has an atmosphere and has a daytime temperature that is considerably lower. If the atmosphere is not keeping the earth cool, then kindly explain what is.

The remainder of your non rebuttal is equal nonsense.

I am really interested in your explanation as to how our atmosphere warms us while the moon with no atmosphere during daylight hours is over 250 degrees F.

 

[RollingThunder]

No, the only ignorant moron with no clue of science is you. Bender is well versed in it. You on the other hand are merely an obnoxious troll with a vainglorious opinion of yourself not backed up by accomplishment.

Let us know when your mom finally kicks you out of the basement you live in.

That's another one of your delusions, walleyed. You and wiredup&bentover have demonstrated a deep ignorance of science and the facts. I post scientific facts from actual working climate scientists and peer-reviewed science journals and you post nothing but misinformation and pseudo-science from denier cult blogs.

Really?

Global Warming Effects: Seasonal Timing Shifts | Sustainablog

Who posted that link? Oh yeah it was YOU! What a clown.

Yeah, I posted that link. A link to a good science blog with accurate scientific information that you can't refute, as I demonstrated on that thread. The difference, as I mentioned, is that your denier cult blogs are full of misinformation and pseudo-science.

I also have posted citations like this on just this thread. You haven't.

Post #330 - Glaciers melting faster than originally thought: study - a report on a study published in the journal Nature Geoscience that was posted on a major physics/general science news site PhysOrg.com.

Recent Global Glacier Retreat Overview - the science web site of the NORTH CASCADE GLACIER CLIMATE PROJECT, founded in 1983 and directed by Dr. Mauri S. Pelto, Professor of Environmental Science at Nichols College in Dudley, Massachusetts, who writes the section on Glacier and Ice Sheets for the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society Annual State of the Climate report.

Post #238 -
Deep ocean warming assessed from altimeters, Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment, in situ measurements, and a non-Boussinesq ocean general circulation model - Y. Tony Song, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology; Frank Colberg, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology, CSIRO Marine and Atmospheric Research - JOURNAL OF GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH, VOL. 116, C02020, 16 PP., 2011 doi:10.1029/2010JC006601

Warming of Global Abyssal and Deep Southern Ocean Waters between the 1990s and 2000s: Contributions to Global Heat and Sea Level Rise Budgets*, Purkey, Sarah G., Gregory C. Johnson, Journal of Climate of the American Meteorological Society, 23, 6336–6351. - doi: 10.1175/2010JCLI3682.1

A 20th century acceleration in global sea&#8208;level rise , Church, J. A. and N. J. White (2006), Geophysical Research Letters, 33 , L01602, doi:10.1029/2005GL024826.

Post #219 -
NOAA: 2010 Tied For Warmest Year on Record - report from the United States National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration

Post #196 -
SAARC Meteorological Research Center - The Maldives

National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC)

Antarctic ice loss vaster, faster than thought: study - a report on a study published in the journal Nature Geoscience that was posted on a major physics/general science news site PhysOrg.com

....
There's more but that makes the point.

 

[Old Rocks]

Ah, but those are scientists, Bender only gets his science from obese junkies on the radio.