So now with the EVIL Corporation Insurance Companies losing their supplemental billions from the gov

[JoeB131]

Before ACA, your participation in any given health insurance plan was strictly voluntary. Just say no.

So how about this. Let's just create a public option. You can pick that or your employer program.

Employers would never go for it, because they like lording this shit over their wage slaves.

 

[dblack]

Before ACA, your participation in any given health insurance plan was strictly voluntary. Just say no.

So how about this. Let's just create a public option.

That would be a vast improvement over ACA. If I were in Congress, I'd vote for it as a replacement.

You can pick that or your employer program.

...or, better still, you can pick any damned thing you like! We don't need government telling us what we can "pick".

Employers would never go for it, because they like lording this shit over their wage slaves.

Is this me, agreeing with you twice in the same post?!?

 

[Darkwind]

Hey, I'd be happy to go to Single Payer, and just be done with it.

But you guys insisted that we not leave the Insurance Companies behind.

Not to worry, big insurance will let Republicans in Congress know what is what soon enough, just like they did on repealling the ACA.

Trump - President in Name Only.

Buyer Beware: The Failure of Single-Payer Health Care

Buyer Beware: The Failure of Single-Payer Health Care

Why single payer health care is a terrible option (Opinion) - CNN

Why single payer health care is a terrible option

As I said before, liberals have a deathwish, not only upon the rest of US but themselves because liberals have no clue how to be happy. That is why they seek ways to self suicide....

won't you think of the children?!?!

 

[Slyhunter]

You are avoiding the point. If I pay into an insurance plan or work to pay for insurance, and I don't get sick that year, I'm paying for the guy who did get sick that year.

That's socialism, buddy. Or at the least collectivism.

So people going to the arcade and loosing are paying the ones who win so gambling is collectivism or socialism?

We can't afford to give paid medical care to every citizen in America. It could bankrupt our country. And we definitely can't afford to do it if we keep allowing third worlders to come into this country and sap our resources.

Two issues here.

Of course we can give paid medical care to everyone in the country. We already spend more per capita than any country in the world, and those countries provide health care to all citizens. The money is there, just not being spent properly. Less for CEO salaries and more for primary care. Problem solved.

As for the "Third Worlders", they probably produce more than they 'sap". Again, the problem is wealth distribution, not who is coming here.

The countries who pay health care for their citizens don't pay their fare share in protecting themselves militarily. They are using Americans Armies to implicitly guard them. If we reduced our military forces maybe then we could do the healthcare bit, for citizens only, but then Russia and China would invade anyone they damn well feel like it and NK would take over SK and Iraq would shove Israel into the Ocean, and Puerto Rico would be a desolated wasteland.

Third worlders do not pay more than they use in Welfare, schools, healthcare, food stamps, etc. especially when you count their anchor babies hand outs.

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

And there are those clinics Joe, but it isn't that those poor people can get FREE healthcare, it is because the white middle class get better care, so must be punished like the poor. That is what liberalism is all about, everyone equally poor and equally miserable, that is called FAIRNESS...

I'm not sure why ANYONE should get better care because of their wealth. That's just wrong.

But, oh, yeah, your boy Trump blinked today. Big Insurance will keep getting their corporate welfare for two more years.

Told you so!

So right now if nothing is done with Obummercare, no one will have insurance and guess what Joe, the liberals will have won again, because when everyone is equally poor and equally miserable, then the liberals have done their job about FAIRNESS.. You will lose your 2 houses Joe if this country ever goes Socialist. Just look at Cuba you dolt and see who owns stuff there. Dumbass..

 

[Cellblock2429]

I'm not avoiding your point, I'm saying it's dead wrong. Socialism is government mandated collectivism. Voluntary collectivism is a fine thing.

I didn't volunteer for big insurance collectivism. I just kind of got stuck with it because that's the awful system we evolved in this country that everyone admits is broken.

/—-/ Pres Trump will slice and dice it. Death by a thousand cuts.

Yeah, um, today, a bipartisan group just agreed to do what they refused to do under Obama, pay big insurance to keep subsidizing the poor.

So once again, you guys surrendered on the point.

/----/ You've been wrong about Pres Trump since day one. Today is no different.

 

[danielpalos]

Did you know that the Professional athletes who kneel to the national anthem make 400 to 500 times the median salary of the workers who buy their tickets? Why do they get so much money?

Well, no, they don't.

The highest NFL Salary is $27 million/Yr for Matthew Stafford. I don't know if he's taking a knee or not, but he's the highest. Most make a lot less. (actually, doing a bit of research, Stafford hasn't taken a stand on the protests and his wife has complained about them in the media)

The average NFL Salary is 2.1 Million.

The NFL's Highest-Paid Players 2016

So, again- I KNOW you are math challenged, but the average American income is $53,719, although I suspect people who can afford to pay $300 to go to a Bears game probably make more than that, let's go with that as an average.

So the AVERAGE NFL Player only makes 39 times what an average American makes.

Joe why do you want the insurance companies to get that corporate welfare? I could of sworn a while ago, you wanted all corporate welfare to stop? Should evil rich companies be subsidized by the government or not?

Are they providing a public good or public service?

 

[danielpalos]

Joe why do you want the insurance companies to get that corporate welfare? I could of sworn a while ago, you wanted all corporate welfare to stop? Should evil rich companies be subsidized by the government or not?

Why do you keep changing the subject when you get spanked?

I've already stated my position on this subject. Single Payer, now.

Now, if Trump breaks the system, that's all on him, but frankly, that'll probably make it easier to get Single Payer.

Let's convince the right wing to end the drug war to pay for health care.

 

[danielpalos]

/----/ Joe must be outraged over this wealth distribution inequality:
On average, NBA players make $5.15 million, MLB players make $3.2 million, NHL players make $2.4 million, and NFL players make $1.9 million per year, according to Forbes.

well, if you are all dumb enough to pay for it, that's on you. I mostly ignore sports.

But let's look at that. The thing is, you never buy a product because Daddy Warbucks is the CEO. You are buying the product made by the guy on the line, and how good is work is.

When you go to a sporting event, you are going to see that player, and if he doesn't perform to standards, he gets traded off to another team pretty quickly.

I should also point out that in a sports organization, the guys who aren't the "Stars" - the benchwarmers, the guys who work in the stadium, etc. are mostly unionized and bring home a pretty good salary.

So Joe if you are dumb enough to by the stuff from a corporation, that's on you......

buy it from an LLC, instead!

 

[danielpalos]

You see, I have no problem if I don't get my way if I'm not in the majority. Usually, events prove me right and I get to say, "I told you so!"

Prove you "right"? We're talking about values and preferences. There's no one "right" way to do health care. That's why government has no business forcing one solution on everyone. I know it contradicts your core beliefs, but freedom is a good thing Joe. It makes it possible for us to live more fulfilling lives as individuals and allows diversity in society, diversity that makes us stronger and better as a nation.

The goal is to cover the most people. How many solutions are there for that?

Actually choosing actual health care, is between the patient and the doctor.

 

[danielpalos]

Prove you "right"? We're talking about values and preferences. There's no one "right" way to do health care. That's why government has no business forcing one solution on everyone. I know it contradicts your core beliefs, but freedom is a good thing Joe. It makes it possible for us to live more fulfilling lives as individuals and allows diversity in society, diversity that makes us stronger and better as a nation.

Guy, I don't feel particularly "free" if I have to stay at a job I hate because I am afraid of losing health care. I feel less free if after working at that job I really didn't like that much for a number of years, and that day comes when I have to make a medical claim for a procedure my doctor says I need, and I get the run-around from Cigna and have to fight them for years over it.

The problem with you Libertarians is that your definition of "Freedom" is those with wealth to be able to push around those of us without wealth.

My definition of freedom is a fair and equal playing field.

Now, as far as a "right" way, you are right, there is no "Right" way.

There are "better ways"... And when the countries that have single payer all live longer, have lower infant mortality rates, and spend less per capita than we do, then they are doing it "better".

Sorry Joe. I know you don't get freedom. But you do, at least, seem to understand that it isn't compatible with socialism. As a nation, we're going to have to choose.

Socialism is what we have to optimize. We have a mixed-market economy. There is no such thing as free market capitalism in the developed world.

 

[danielpalos]

The thing is, whether you are getting your health care from a government agency or a private company, it's still all "Socialist".

No. Private companies are the opposite of Socialism.

Listen, Joe. You can't just go around making up your own words. Or, well, I guess you can, but then you're not actually communicating with anyone. You might as well be typing gibberish.

Yes, it might suck for the doctors who went into medicine for six figure salaries, I guess, if the government limits what they get paid, but they are already being limited by the insurance companies where the "Family practice" is being replaced by the corporate chain medicine anyway, and the doctor is just an employee.

It sucks for anyone who wants something different than what the government (and its lobbyists) think they ought to have.

Not really. Corporate welfare is alive and well.

 

[danielpalos]

"The thing is, whether you are getting your health care from a government agency or a private company, it's still all "Socialist"."

No. Private companies are the opposite of Socialism.

You are avoiding the point. If I pay into an insurance plan or work to pay for insurance, and I don't get sick that year, I'm paying for the guy who did get sick that year.

That's socialism, buddy. Or at the least collectivism.

I'm not avoiding your point, I'm saying it's dead wrong. Socialism is government mandated collectivism. Voluntary collectivism is a fine thing. Society depends on it. If someone wants to start a commune (or a health care collective, or whatever, or a charity) that's great! It's when they try to force people to join them that I have a problem with it.

Yes, well regulated militia are a collective that is necessary to the security of a free State.

When it really matters, it is socialism that we rely on, not capitalism.

 

[JoeB131]

The countries who pay health care for their citizens don't pay their fare share in protecting themselves militarily. They are using Americans Armies to implicitly guard them. If we reduced our military forces maybe then we could do the healthcare bit, for citizens only, but then Russia and China would invade anyone they damn well feel like it and NK would take over SK and Iraq would shove Israel into the Ocean, and Puerto Rico would be a desolated wasteland.

Yes, sputtering your hatred for the rest of the world is fun and all, but the fact is, we spend more money on defense than the next 10 countries combined, and 8 of them are allies.

Pretending broken down third world countries like Iran or North Korea are real threats is just laughable.

again, we are ALREADY spending enough money to provide universal health care. We spend 17% of GDP on health care compared to other countries that spend bout 10%. The problem is that since our system is about greed, most of that money goes to paying for Mansions instead of Hospitals, and that's the real tragedy of this.

 

[JoeB131]

/----/ You've been wrong about Pres Trump since day one. Today is no different.

Buddy, Trump blinked. He agreed to do what for that last four years the GOP claimed was illegal- spending government money to prop up big insurance.

So right now if nothing is done with Obummercare, no one will have insurance and guess what Joe, the liberals will have won again, because when everyone is equally poor and equally miserable, then the liberals have done their job about FAIRNESS.. You will lose your 2 houses Joe if this country ever goes Socialist. Just look at Cuba you dolt and see who owns stuff there. Dumbass..

Actually, if you boy Trump hadn't blinked, a bunch of the dumb white trash in Jesusland would have figured out that the "Affordable Care Act" they've been getting insurance through for the first time in their miserable lives is the same thing as "ObamaCare".

 

[sakinago]

Hey, I'd be happy to go to Single Payer, and just be done with it.

But you guys insisted that we not leave the Insurance Companies behind.

Not to worry, big insurance will let Republicans in Congress know what is what soon enough, just like they did on repealling the ACA.

Trump - President in Name Only.

Who insisted? Since when was there a discussion with Obamacare? The couple thousand page bill was made behind close doors, then rushed for a vote before anyone had time to read it. There was no discussion. And no one gives a rats ass about the insurance companies. There's no "let's keep the insurance companies around for their sake." That's ridiculous. Those against the ACA have been wanting for decades to free up the healthcare market, and instead there's been regulation after regulation passed. And then the ACA is presented, like it was 100% necessary or all the poor would die, without anyone hearing us out.

It's not like free market healthcare systems do not work, like the left looooves to claim. We haven't had a free system in a very long time, it's been heavily regulated for decades upon decades. The Swiss have a very free and competitive privatized market, that not only provides very high quality AND TIMELY care, it's also quite affordable. And there's no massive tax burden on the people for that, and there are thousands and thousands of specialized plans to choose from that fit you...and their healthcare system doesn't require 60% of the population working in healthcare to work through the highly inefficient and time consuming bureaucracy. There's also no rationing of care as we see in single payer systems, E.G. "You don't need a new knee, here's a cane and pain pills instead." "And when you eventually need a new knee, you'll have to wait around at least 6 weeks."

 

[dblack]

Hey, I'd be happy to go to Single Payer, and just be done with it.

But you guys insisted that we not leave the Insurance Companies behind.

Not to worry, big insurance will let Republicans in Congress know what is what soon enough, just like they did on repealling the ACA.

Trump - President in Name Only.

Who insisted? Since when was there a discussion with Obamacare? The couple thousand page bill was made behind close doors, then rushed for a vote before anyone had time to read it. There was no discussion. And no one gives a rats ass about the insurance companies. There's no "let's keep the insurance companies around for their sake." That's ridiculous. Those against the ACA have been wanting for decades to free up the healthcare market, and instead there's been regulation after regulation passed. And then the ACA is presented, like it was 100% necessary or all the poor would die, without anyone hearing us out.

It's not like free market healthcare systems do not work, like the left looooves to claim. We haven't had a free system in a very long time, it's been heavily regulated for decades upon decades. The Swiss have a very free and competitive privatized market, that not only provides very high quality AND TIMELY care, it's also quite affordable. And there's no massive tax burden on the people for that, and there are thousands and thousands of specialized plans to choose from that fit you...and their healthcare system doesn't require 60% of the population working in healthcare to work through the highly inefficient and time consuming bureaucracy. There's also no rationing of care as we see in single payer systems, E.G. "You don't need a new knee, here's a cane and pain pills instead." "And when you eventually need a new knee, you'll have to wait around at least 6 weeks."

The funny thing is, they're all convince single payer will send the insurance companies packing. Not if it's based on Medicare. Medicare doesn't remove insurance companies profits from the mix, it removes consumer choice. Government buys the insurance for us, from the same rogue's gallery of vested interests, with precious little input from individuals.

 

[JoeB131]

Who insisted? Since when was there a discussion with Obamacare? The couple thousand page bill was made behind close doors, then rushed for a vote before anyone had time to read it. There was no discussion. And no one gives a rats ass about the insurance companies. There's no "let's keep the insurance companies around for their sake." That's ridiculous. Those against the ACA have been wanting for decades to free up the healthcare market, and instead there's been regulation after regulation passed. And then the ACA is presented, like it was 100% necessary or all the poor would die, without anyone hearing us out.

Yeah, the problem with "Freeing up the insuarnce market" usually means, 'Let's let the Insurance industry take people's money, and then screw them if they get anything more serious than a cold."

Look, buddy, the left wanted a public option. Instead, they went along with what was essentially national Romney-Care. And the GOP was all for RomneyCare, until the Black Guy Did It.

Check out the 2008 election. Nobody gave Romney any shit about RomneyCare. He got more shit for being a Mormon. By 2012, the Evangelicals didn't care about Mormonism anymore and Romney wouldn't be caught having a drink with his own program.

It's not like free market healthcare systems do not work, like the left looooves to claim.

Hey, buddy, you try to fight with an insurance company some time to get a treatment that your doctor says you need to have, and they don't want to pay for. Then tell me how the "Free Market" works.

The Swiss have a very free and competitive privatized market, that not only provides very high quality AND TIMELY care, it's also quite affordable.

The entire Swiss economy is based on moving other people's money around... and they have universal health care.

 

[bendog]

As I said before, liberals have a deathwish, not only upon the rest of US but themselves because liberals have no clue how to be happy. That is why they seek ways to self suicide....

Yawn, guy... getting a little bored with the right wing claiming single payer is worse, when we get the worst results with our current system.

I'm not a fan of single payer, but the irony that Aaron's OP and the Oranguton's misgivings about insurance companies SUPPORT changing Obamacare to singlepayer. LOL Of course the Oranguton was for single payer before he was against it. So, he perhaps is consistent.

 

[bendog]

Hey, I'd be happy to go to Single Payer, and just be done with it.

But you guys insisted that we not leave the Insurance Companies behind.

Not to worry, big insurance will let Republicans in Congress know what is what soon enough, just like they did on repealling the ACA.

Trump - President in Name Only.

Who insisted? Since when was there a discussion with Obamacare? The couple thousand page bill was made behind close doors, then rushed for a vote before anyone had time to read it. There was no discussion. And no one gives a rats ass about the insurance companies. There's no "let's keep the insurance companies around for their sake." That's ridiculous. Those against the ACA have been wanting for decades to free up the healthcare market, and instead there's been regulation after regulation passed. And then the ACA is presented, like it was 100% necessary or all the poor would die, without anyone hearing us out.

It's not like free market healthcare systems do not work, like the left looooves to claim. We haven't had a free system in a very long time, it's been heavily regulated for decades upon decades. The Swiss have a very free and competitive privatized market, that not only provides very high quality AND TIMELY care, it's also quite affordable. And there's no massive tax burden on the people for that, and there are thousands and thousands of specialized plans to choose from that fit you...and their healthcare system doesn't require 60% of the population working in healthcare to work through the highly inefficient and time consuming bureaucracy. There's also no rationing of care as we see in single payer systems, E.G. "You don't need a new knee, here's a cane and pain pills instead." "And when you eventually need a new knee, you'll have to wait around at least 6 weeks."

The funny thing is, they're all convince single payer will send the insurance companies packing. Not if it's based on Medicare. Medicare doesn't remove insurance companies profits from the mix, it removes consumer choice. Government buys the insurance for us, from the same rogue's gallery of vested interests, with precious little input from individuals.

I don't think many oldsters are complaining. Medicare has problems, but consumer "choice" is not one of them.