So, let's go ahead and go back to the '1967' borders and end the 'occupation'

[Billo_Really]

their "forefathers" didn't come from israel. and people throughout history have been moved around.

You're wrong.

90 percent of all Palestinians are descended from the Jews​

funny the terrorist supporting jew haters only whine about israel.

Why would I hate Jews?

 

[Billo_Really]

who said you have a right to exist, loser?

fact is, it, like you, exist.

the world is better off with israel than with you, but whatchagonnado?

Off topic post.

Zone

Two

Violation!

If you can't stay on topic, take your egg-less cooter elsewhere.

Otherwise, tell us why Israel can't hold onto the land it seized in the '67 war and will eventually be forced to go back to the '67 borders, just like Hitler was forced out of Poland.

 

[Billo_Really]

Alright....now we are getting somewhere. I have questions for you.

1. Does forceably removing or deporting a population remove their right to be included in a population? No

Does it remove their identity? No

If, for example, we remove Palestinian Arabs from "Palestine" do they cease to be "Palestinians"? No

Why or why not? It is against IHL to change the demographics of an area under occupation.

Geneva Convention IV
Article 49, sixth paragraph, of the 1949 Geneva Convention IV provides: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."​

2. Does a group with a right to self-determination have the right to self-identify? Yes

That is -- to determine for themselves who is or who is not part of their group? That's a can of worms! I don't have an answer for that one.

Or should that be imposed on outsiders? I'd say that depends on how you define "outsider", but again, I don't know the answer to that.

Why or why not? See above.

For example, can Israel determine who is, or who is not, a Palestinian? No

3. If the rule of self-identification is not the guiding principle for self-determination what is (or what should it be)? See below.

Residency? Yes

Paternity? No

What criteria does one use to determine who is a "Palestinian Arab" and who is a "Palestinian Jew"? Residency.

4. If the Jewish people have a right to self-determination, we are just quibbling about where, or how big? No, we're not quibbling about that.

aren't we? No

 

[Boston1]

Alright....now we are getting somewhere. I have questions for you.

1. Does forceably removing or deporting a population remove their right to be included in a population? Does it remove their identity? If, for example, we remove Palestinian Arabs from "Palestine" do they cease to be "Palestinians"? Why or why not?

2. Does a group with a right to self-determination have the right to self-identify? That is -- to determine for themselves who is or who is not part of their group? Or should that be imposed on outsiders? Why or why not? For example, can Israel determine who is, or who is not, a Palestinian?

3. If the rule of self-identification is not the guiding principle for self-determination what is (or what should it be)? Residency? Paternity? What criteria does one use to determine who is a "Palestinian Arab" and who is a "Palestinian Jew"?

4. If the Jewish people have a right to self-determination, we are just quibbling about where, or how big? aren't we?

1. Does forceably removing or deporting a population remove their right to be included in a population? Does it remove their identity? If, for example, we remove Palestinian Arabs from "Palestine" do they cease to be "Palestinians"? Why or why not?​

Information on some of that here @ 41:15

You have cut and pasted this YouTube video multiple times across multiple threads. Jordan, Syria, Egypt, etc., are not going to grant a right of return to the beggars and squatters you call "Pal'istanians".

What "THE BEGGARS" you drove out of their homes,exiled,murdered and maimed in 1948.....of course they have Right of Return,YOU STOLE THEIR LAND AND HAVE CONTINUED TO UP TO AND

I'm really not clear on how this MYTH of stolen land got started. The Zionists were BUYING land when the local Arab populations attacked them out of pure prejudice and malice. There was no stolen land

Well how wrong you are........the only Myth as you put it was "The Zionist idea that Jews were intitled to Palestine" it was a fraud of course,the Zionists who some of you forget was a TERRORIST(and still is)ORGANIZATION...who used Killings,as their modus-operandi,to illegally take over parts of Palestine prior to 1949 (1922 onwards).

I can quite understand your confusion,because you have been indoctorinated with Standard Zionist Bullshit........but the truth of the matter .......you know no nor the hour

The so called'67 borders were never borders.

who said you have a right to exist, loser?

fact is, it, like you, exist.

the world is better off with israel than with you, but whatchagonnado?

Says YOU but who are YOU

Apparently someone who knows what he's talking about ;--)

The Arabs never recognized the 67 borders until this nonsense about occupation and palestinian land came up. The borders were retroactively challenged not only in law, at the UN and in the palestinian mind set after it became clear Israel had won yet another war of Arab aggression

So why the Palestinian reaction in the 1930's onwards when they realized the Zionists were flooding into Palestine ILLEGALY.

Don't bother to respond to me with your Obsequious Zionist Rantings,until you read your history 1920-1948,properly and independently......then we will talk,other than that there is no point.steven........but Welcome to USMB,Boston Numero Uno........Till the next time ...steven

LOL read my history, if you only knew. The Arabs of the time ( the Zionist period ) were desperate to halt the sale of land to the Judaic people, Zionist or not. Yup they made laws forbidding the sales, so Zionists went through third parties, No different than when people make third party purchases here in the USA.

As for accusations of terrorist acts. Once again at that time the Arabs had just engaged in another pogrom against Israeli existence within palestine. Violent acts where common. War was brewing and the vast majority of terrorism was being committed by the Arabs. What few Judaic people that did fight back were instantly characterized as terrorists. Pretty obviously just more spin to justify the prejudice and bigotry.

 

[Billo_Really]

Ridiculous,
The British mandate has so far been divided into three main areas. Jordan ( ~78% ) Gaza ( ~5% ) and Israel ( ~17% )

The British Mandate ended on May 14, 1948.

There are presently Gazans Jordanians and Israeli. Palestine isn't a state or a territory, Its an identity held by the remaining Arab population of whatever lineage within the Israeli controlled area. Some outside that area also cling to the term. However, time moves forward and things change. Palestine no longer exists just as Judea no longer exists. Gaza, Jordan and Israel are what now exist. Lets work on facing reality kids.

It doesn't matter what name you want to attach to it, the indigenous residents of that area, have a right to self determination.

Also its quite clear, particularly in the most recent violence who's inciting and who's attempting to contain the violence. Its also quite clear that restrictions are working beautifully, instead of automatic weapons and car bombs the palestinian terroritsts are reduced through restrictions to knives and clunkers. Its more than obvious that the palestinians are responsible for their own conditions.

If restrictions were working beautifully, there wouldn't be any violence.

It should also be noted, there was no major incidents of violence between Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Arabs until the Zionists showed up.

Once again the revisionist history simply doesn't stand up to detailed scrutiny

I'm not revising, I'm recalling.

 

[Billo_Really]

The Arabs of the area are living in Israel now and unless they behave like civilized human beings they are going to get deported abut as fast as you can find the paperwork and drive them to the border.

Israel has no legal jurisdiction to deport anyone in the occupied territories.

And as far as acting civilized...

Here's a bunch of Israeli's standing around a Palestinian boy (who just deliberately hit by a car) yelling, "Die! Die! Die!"




You need to walk your own talk, asshole.

 

[Boston1]

quote
PS Boston,in future address Palestine/Palestinians with a CAPITAL "P"...........at least give them that basic Cynosure...thanks steven
end quote

From what I can tell from the history of the word, if you are referencing the Arabic use of the term its actually Filastin but the term palestine was actually more of an insult in reference to the Judaic people of the area such that it detracted from there heritage with Judea, the areas proper name.

Quote
Though the definite origins of the word "Palestine" have been debated for years and are still not known for sure, the name is believed to be derived from the Egyptian and Hebrew word peleshet. Roughly translated to mean "rolling" or "migratory," the term was used to describe the inhabitants of the land to the northeast of Egypt - the Philistines. The Philistines were an Aegean people - more closely related to the Greeks and with no connection ethnically, linguisticly or historically with Arabia - who conquered in the 12th Century BCE the Mediterranean coastal plain that is now Israeland Gaza.

A derivitave of the name "Palestine" first appears in Greek literature in the 5th Century BCE when the historian Herodotus called the area "Palaistinē" (Greek - Παλαιστίνη). In the 2nd century CE, the Romans crushed the revolt of Shimon Bar Kokhba (132 CE), during which Jerusalem and Judea were regained and the area of Judea was renamed Palaestina in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel.

Under the Ottoman Empire (1517-1917), the term Palestine was used as a general term to describe the land south of Syria; it was not an official designation. In fact, many Ottomans and Arabs who lived in Palestine during this time period referred to the area as "Southern Syria" and not as "Palestine."

After World War I, the name "Palestine" was applied to the territory that was placed under British Mandate; this area included not only present-day Israel but also present-day Jordan.

Leading up to Israel's independence in 1948, it was common for the international press to label Jews, not Arabs, living in the mandate as Palestinians. It was not until years after Israeli independence that the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were called Palestinians. In fact, Arabs cannot even correctly pronounce the word Palestine in their native tongue, referring to area rather as“Filastin.”

The word Palestine or Filastin does not appear in the Koran. The term peleshet appears in the Jewish Tanakh no fewer than 250 times.

End Quote.


While I do most definitely appreciate the assistance with my English skill, which I apologize for right now, as I know my English is bad. I don't think we should be aggrandizing a term that was intended as an insult to the Judaic people by capitalizing it. Note even the term paleshet, ( last paragraph ) isn't capitalized.

If there is some reasonable justification for capitalizing this term, I'm all ears but from what I can see it would be like capitalizing any other derogatory.

 

[Boston1]

The Arabs of the area are living in Israel now and unless they behave like civilized human beings they are going to get deported abut as fast as you can find the paperwork and drive them to the border.

Israel has no legal jurisdiction to deport anyone in the occupied territories.

And as far as acting civilized...

Here's a bunch of Israeli's standing around a Palestinian boy (who just deliberately hit by a car) yelling, "Die! Die! Die!"




You need to walk your own talk, asshole.

descending into personal insults is a very good indicator that your position in this discussion has deteriorated to the point where it is indefensible.

First we need to know the circumstances of this incident you have presented a video of. I'd suspect that this palestinian just attempted to injury or kill innocent Israeli's and was run down in self defense. In which case the anger and frustration being expressed in understandable if ugly. Push people far enough and they might not exactly show remorse when a terrorist dies. Personally I think its all a tragedy.

I'd also add that if this youths household was summarily deported it would likely add significantly to the deterrent of restrictions.

And actually Israel has every right to deport people from its country. All countries exorcise this right. Your assumption that the area in question was "occupied" was nothing more than that. An assumption. One that also included the MYTH that Israel is occupying land. It isn't. Israel is doing exactly what was intended with that land in the Mandate. Setting up a Jewish national homeland. Thats not occupation, thats nation building.

 

[theliq]

quote
PS Boston,in future address Palestine/Palestinians with a CAPITAL "P"...........at least give them that basic Cynosure...thanks steven
end quote

From what I can tell from the history of the word, if you are referencing the Arabic use of the term its actually Filastin but the term palestine was actually more of an insult in reference to the Judaic people of the area such that it detracted from there heritage with Judea, the areas proper name.

Quote
Though the definite origins of the word "Palestine" have been debated for years and are still not known for sure, the name is believed to be derived from the Egyptian and Hebrew word peleshet. Roughly translated to mean "rolling" or "migratory," the term was used to describe the inhabitants of the land to the northeast of Egypt - the Philistines. The Philistines were an Aegean people - more closely related to the Greeks and with no connection ethnically, linguisticly or historically with Arabia - who conquered in the 12th Century BCE the Mediterranean coastal plain that is now Israeland Gaza.

A derivitave of the name "Palestine" first appears in Greek literature in the 5th Century BCE when the historian Herodotus called the area "Palaistinē" (Greek - Παλαιστίνη). In the 2nd century CE, the Romans crushed the revolt of Shimon Bar Kokhba (132 CE), during which Jerusalem and Judea were regained and the area of Judea was renamed Palaestina in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel.

Under the Ottoman Empire (1517-1917), the term Palestine was used as a general term to describe the land south of Syria; it was not an official designation. In fact, many Ottomans and Arabs who lived in Palestine during this time period referred to the area as "Southern Syria" and not as "Palestine."

After World War I, the name "Palestine" was applied to the territory that was placed under British Mandate; this area included not only present-day Israel but also present-day Jordan.

Leading up to Israel's independence in 1948, it was common for the international press to label Jews, not Arabs, living in the mandate as Palestinians. It was not until years after Israeli independence that the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were called Palestinians. In fact, Arabs cannot even correctly pronounce the word Palestine in their native tongue, referring to area rather as“Filastin.”

The word Palestine or Filastin does not appear in the Koran. The term peleshet appears in the Jewish Tanakh no fewer than 250 times.

End Quote.


While I do most definitely appreciate the assistance with my English skill, which I apologize for right now, as I know my English is bad. I don't think we should be aggrandizing a term that was intended as an insult to the Judaic people by capitalizing it. Note even the term paleshet, ( last paragraph ) isn't capitalized.

If there is some reasonable justification for capitalizing this term, I'm all ears but from what I can see it would be like capitalizing any other derogatory.

Nice to see you can cut and paste but the reality is you are wrong,wrong,wrong..............some of your comments (Huhum are very strange indeed) I wiil be back

 

[Billo_Really]

descending into personal insults is a very good indicator that your position in this discussion has deteriorated to the point where it is indefensible.

First we need to know the circumstances of this incident you have presented a video of. I'd suspect that this palestinian just attempted to injury or kill innocent Israeli's and was run down in self defense. In which case the anger and frustration being expressed in understandable if ugly. Push people far enough and they might not exactly show remorse when a terrorist dies. Personally I think its all a tragedy.

I'd also add that if this youths household was summarily deported it would likely add significantly to the deterrent of restrictions.

And actually Israel has every right to deport people from its country. All countries exorcise this right. Your assumption that the area in question was "occupied" was nothing more than that. An assumption. One that also included the MYTH that Israel is occupying land. It isn't. Israel is doing exactly what was intended with that land in the Mandate. Setting up a Jewish national homeland. Thats not occupation, thats nation building.

You trying to defend these inhuman assholes, is more insulting than anything I've said. And trying to defend their actions, show you have no clue what civility is.

The West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, is not Israel.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Shusha.

Oops, sorry about the video.

The info is about nationality tied to the land not to a government or state. The law requires a new state to grant citizenship to normal residents. It is a violation of law to denationalize groups of people.

BTW, closed caption works...sort of.

Thank you for your courtesy, Tinmore; it is most appreciated. Yeah, close captioning is pretty iffy on a lot of these videos. But I do appreciate the information. And thank you for pointing out the time so I could limit my concentration to a few minutes and not a video over an hour long.

A few points.

The speaker wishes to discuss the "intergenerational commitment of return (of Palestinians) to their homeland". Do you not see the irony of this? I mean the utter and complete and total irony?

She claims that the reason the Jewish people do not have an intergenerational birthright to return to their homeland is because the Jewish people are not (can not) be recognized in international law as a national group. Does that strike you as a legally convoluted explanation for excluding the Jewish people from a basic set of human rights, as set down in IHL?

It does me.

The speaker wishes to discuss the "intergenerational commitment of return (of Palestinians) to their homeland". Do you not see the irony of this? I mean the utter and complete and total irony?​

No.

 

[Boston1]

quote
PS Boston,in future address Palestine/Palestinians with a CAPITAL "P"...........at least give them that basic Cynosure...thanks steven
end quote

From what I can tell from the history of the word, if you are referencing the Arabic use of the term its actually Filastin but the term palestine was actually more of an insult in reference to the Judaic people of the area such that it detracted from there heritage with Judea, the areas proper name.

Quote
Though the definite origins of the word "Palestine" have been debated for years and are still not known for sure, the name is believed to be derived from the Egyptian and Hebrew word peleshet. Roughly translated to mean "rolling" or "migratory," the term was used to describe the inhabitants of the land to the northeast of Egypt - the Philistines. The Philistines were an Aegean people - more closely related to the Greeks and with no connection ethnically, linguisticly or historically with Arabia - who conquered in the 12th Century BCE the Mediterranean coastal plain that is now Israeland Gaza.

A derivitave of the name "Palestine" first appears in Greek literature in the 5th Century BCE when the historian Herodotus called the area "Palaistinē" (Greek - Παλαιστίνη). In the 2nd century CE, the Romans crushed the revolt of Shimon Bar Kokhba (132 CE), during which Jerusalem and Judea were regained and the area of Judea was renamed Palaestina in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel.

Under the Ottoman Empire (1517-1917), the term Palestine was used as a general term to describe the land south of Syria; it was not an official designation. In fact, many Ottomans and Arabs who lived in Palestine during this time period referred to the area as "Southern Syria" and not as "Palestine."

After World War I, the name "Palestine" was applied to the territory that was placed under British Mandate; this area included not only present-day Israel but also present-day Jordan.

Leading up to Israel's independence in 1948, it was common for the international press to label Jews, not Arabs, living in the mandate as Palestinians. It was not until years after Israeli independence that the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were called Palestinians. In fact, Arabs cannot even correctly pronounce the word Palestine in their native tongue, referring to area rather as“Filastin.”

The word Palestine or Filastin does not appear in the Koran. The term peleshet appears in the Jewish Tanakh no fewer than 250 times.

End Quote.


While I do most definitely appreciate the assistance with my English skill, which I apologize for right now, as I know my English is bad. I don't think we should be aggrandizing a term that was intended as an insult to the Judaic people by capitalizing it. Note even the term paleshet, ( last paragraph ) isn't capitalized.

If there is some reasonable justification for capitalizing this term, I'm all ears but from what I can see it would be like capitalizing any other derogatory.

Nice to see you can cut and paste but the reality is you are wrong,wrong,wrong..............some of your comments (Huhum are very strange indeed) I wiil be back

How so, its like if you called a place shitland and wanted to dignify it with a capitol S

 

[Boston1]

descending into personal insults is a very good indicator that your position in this discussion has deteriorated to the point where it is indefensible.

First we need to know the circumstances of this incident you have presented a video of. I'd suspect that this palestinian just attempted to injury or kill innocent Israeli's and was run down in self defense. In which case the anger and frustration being expressed in understandable if ugly. Push people far enough and they might not exactly show remorse when a terrorist dies. Personally I think its all a tragedy.

I'd also add that if this youths household was summarily deported it would likely add significantly to the deterrent of restrictions.

And actually Israel has every right to deport people from its country. All countries exorcise this right. Your assumption that the area in question was "occupied" was nothing more than that. An assumption. One that also included the MYTH that Israel is occupying land. It isn't. Israel is doing exactly what was intended with that land in the Mandate. Setting up a Jewish national homeland. Thats not occupation, thats nation building.

You trying to defend these inhuman assholes, is more insulting than anything I've said. And trying to defend their actions, show you have no clue what civility is.

The West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, is not Israel.

descending into personal insults is a very good indicator that your position in this discussion has deteriorated to the point where it is indefensible.

First we need to know the circumstances of this incident you have presented a video of. I'd suspect that this palestinian just attempted to injury or kill innocent Israeli's and was run down in self defense. In which case the anger and frustration being expressed in understandable if ugly. Push people far enough and they might not exactly show remorse when a terrorist dies. Personally I think its all a tragedy.

I'd also add that if this youths household was summarily deported it would likely add significantly to the deterrent of restrictions.

And actually Israel has every right to deport people from its country. All countries exorcise this right. Your assumption that the area in question was "occupied" was nothing more than that. An assumption. One that also included the MYTH that Israel is occupying land. It isn't. Israel is doing exactly what was intended with that land in the Mandate. Setting up a Jewish national homeland. Thats not occupation, thats nation building.

You trying to defend these inhuman assholes, is more insulting than anything I've said. And trying to defend their actions, show you have no clue what civility is.

The West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, is not Israel.

The Israeli people are guilty of surviving in the face of millions of Arabs rabid for the destruction of the only Jewish state. Nothing more.

As far as the areas you mention not being Israeli, is New Mexico not part of the USA ? Is any land won in warfare to be returned and to whom ? Didn't the former owner also acquire it through warfare ? How is it that all these special considerations are heaped upon the israeli's after the fact when none of the same considerations are demanded of others ?

Its pretty obvious the prejudice and bigotry involved in this issue.

 

[theliq]

descending into personal insults is a very good indicator that your position in this discussion has deteriorated to the point where it is indefensible.

First we need to know the circumstances of this incident you have presented a video of. I'd suspect that this palestinian just attempted to injury or kill innocent Israeli's and was run down in self defense. In which case the anger and frustration being expressed in understandable if ugly. Push people far enough and they might not exactly show remorse when a terrorist dies. Personally I think its all a tragedy.

I'd also add that if this youths household was summarily deported it would likely add significantly to the deterrent of restrictions.

And actually Israel has every right to deport people from its country. All countries exorcise this right. Your assumption that the area in question was "occupied" was nothing more than that. An assumption. One that also included the MYTH that Israel is occupying land. It isn't. Israel is doing exactly what was intended with that land in the Mandate. Setting up a Jewish national homeland. Thats not occupation, thats nation building.

You trying to defend these inhuman assholes, is more insulting than anything I've said. And trying to defend their actions, show you have no clue what civility is.

The West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, is not Israel.

descending into personal insults is a very good indicator that your position in this discussion has deteriorated to the point where it is indefensible.

First we need to know the circumstances of this incident you have presented a video of. I'd suspect that this palestinian just attempted to injury or kill innocent Israeli's and was run down in self defense. In which case the anger and frustration being expressed in understandable if ugly. Push people far enough and they might not exactly show remorse when a terrorist dies. Personally I think its all a tragedy.

I'd also add that if this youths household was summarily deported it would likely add significantly to the deterrent of restrictions.

And actually Israel has every right to deport people from its country. All countries exorcise this right. Your assumption that the area in question was "occupied" was nothing more than that. An assumption. One that also included the MYTH that Israel is occupying land. It isn't. Israel is doing exactly what was intended with that land in the Mandate. Setting up a Jewish national homeland. Thats not occupation, thats nation building.

You trying to defend these inhuman assholes, is more insulting than anything I've said. And trying to defend their actions, show you have no clue what civility is.

The West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, is not Israel.

The Israeli people are guilty of surviving in the face of millions of Arabs rabid for the destruction of the only Jewish state. Nothing more.

As far as the areas you mention not being Israeli, is New Mexico not part of the USA ? Is any land won in warfare to be returned and to whom ? Didn't the former owner also acquire it through warfare ? How is it that all these special considerations are heaped upon the israeli's after the fact when none of the same considerations are demanded of others ?

Its pretty obvious the prejudice and bigotry involved in this issue.

Well if you delved into Jewish history you would be aware that Jews semenally decended from a mixture of Hittites and Arabs...they are not a Semitic people at all......the only Semitic people are the Palestinians...I trust the weather is fine in downtown Tele-Aviv ..Boston

 

[Shusha]

First we need to know the circumstances of this incident you have presented a video of. I'd suspect that this palestinian just attempted to injury or kill innocent Israeli's and was run down in self defense. In which case the anger and frustration being expressed in understandable if ugly.

Indeed. This teenager was hit by a car because he was stabbing a 13-year-old Israeli child, in one of hundreds of attacks on innocent Israeli civilians since October of last year.

 

[theliq]

quote
PS Boston,in future address Palestine/Palestinians with a CAPITAL "P"...........at least give them that basic Cynosure...thanks steven
end quote

From what I can tell from the history of the word, if you are referencing the Arabic use of the term its actually Filastin but the term palestine was actually more of an insult in reference to the Judaic people of the area such that it detracted from there heritage with Judea, the areas proper name.

Quote
Though the definite origins of the word "Palestine" have been debated for years and are still not known for sure, the name is believed to be derived from the Egyptian and Hebrew word peleshet. Roughly translated to mean "rolling" or "migratory," the term was used to describe the inhabitants of the land to the northeast of Egypt - the Philistines. The Philistines were an Aegean people - more closely related to the Greeks and with no connection ethnically, linguisticly or historically with Arabia - who conquered in the 12th Century BCE the Mediterranean coastal plain that is now Israeland Gaza.

A derivitave of the name "Palestine" first appears in Greek literature in the 5th Century BCE when the historian Herodotus called the area "Palaistinē" (Greek - Παλαιστίνη). In the 2nd century CE, the Romans crushed the revolt of Shimon Bar Kokhba (132 CE), during which Jerusalem and Judea were regained and the area of Judea was renamed Palaestina in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel.

Under the Ottoman Empire (1517-1917), the term Palestine was used as a general term to describe the land south of Syria; it was not an official designation. In fact, many Ottomans and Arabs who lived in Palestine during this time period referred to the area as "Southern Syria" and not as "Palestine."

After World War I, the name "Palestine" was applied to the territory that was placed under British Mandate; this area included not only present-day Israel but also present-day Jordan.

Leading up to Israel's independence in 1948, it was common for the international press to label Jews, not Arabs, living in the mandate as Palestinians. It was not until years after Israeli independence that the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were called Palestinians. In fact, Arabs cannot even correctly pronounce the word Palestine in their native tongue, referring to area rather as“Filastin.”

The word Palestine or Filastin does not appear in the Koran. The term peleshet appears in the Jewish Tanakh no fewer than 250 times.

End Quote.


While I do most definitely appreciate the assistance with my English skill, which I apologize for right now, as I know my English is bad. I don't think we should be aggrandizing a term that was intended as an insult to the Judaic people by capitalizing it. Note even the term paleshet, ( last paragraph ) isn't capitalized.

If there is some reasonable justification for capitalizing this term, I'm all ears but from what I can see it would be like capitalizing any other derogatory.

Nice to see you can cut and paste but the reality is you are wrong,wrong,wrong..............some of your comments (Huhum are very strange indeed) I wiil be back

How so, its like if you called a place shitland and wanted to dignify it with a capitol S

I think you mean't Capital........Why are you calling Israel...SHITLAND??????? go wash your mouth out Bostie.steven

 

[Shusha]

The speaker wishes to discuss the "intergenerational commitment of return (of Palestinians) to their homeland". Do you not see the irony of this? I mean the utter and complete and total irony?

​

No.

Maybe a little video will help.

 

[Shusha]

Does forceably removing or deporting a population remove their right to be included in a population? No
Does it remove their identity? No
If, for example, we remove Palestinian Arabs from "Palestine" do they cease to be "Palestinians"? No
Does a group with a right to self-determination have the right to self-identify? Yes

Are these UNIVERSAL RIGHTS or do they apply only to some peoples?

 

[Boston1]

descending into personal insults is a very good indicator that your position in this discussion has deteriorated to the point where it is indefensible.

First we need to know the circumstances of this incident you have presented a video of. I'd suspect that this palestinian just attempted to injury or kill innocent Israeli's and was run down in self defense. In which case the anger and frustration being expressed in understandable if ugly. Push people far enough and they might not exactly show remorse when a terrorist dies. Personally I think its all a tragedy.

I'd also add that if this youths household was summarily deported it would likely add significantly to the deterrent of restrictions.

And actually Israel has every right to deport people from its country. All countries exorcise this right. Your assumption that the area in question was "occupied" was nothing more than that. An assumption. One that also included the MYTH that Israel is occupying land. It isn't. Israel is doing exactly what was intended with that land in the Mandate. Setting up a Jewish national homeland. Thats not occupation, thats nation building.

You trying to defend these inhuman assholes, is more insulting than anything I've said. And trying to defend their actions, show you have no clue what civility is.

The West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, is not Israel.

descending into personal insults is a very good indicator that your position in this discussion has deteriorated to the point where it is indefensible.

First we need to know the circumstances of this incident you have presented a video of. I'd suspect that this palestinian just attempted to injury or kill innocent Israeli's and was run down in self defense. In which case the anger and frustration being expressed in understandable if ugly. Push people far enough and they might not exactly show remorse when a terrorist dies. Personally I think its all a tragedy.

I'd also add that if this youths household was summarily deported it would likely add significantly to the deterrent of restrictions.

And actually Israel has every right to deport people from its country. All countries exorcise this right. Your assumption that the area in question was "occupied" was nothing more than that. An assumption. One that also included the MYTH that Israel is occupying land. It isn't. Israel is doing exactly what was intended with that land in the Mandate. Setting up a Jewish national homeland. Thats not occupation, thats nation building.

You trying to defend these inhuman assholes, is more insulting than anything I've said. And trying to defend their actions, show you have no clue what civility is.

The West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, is not Israel.

The Israeli people are guilty of surviving in the face of millions of Arabs rabid for the destruction of the only Jewish state. Nothing more.

As far as the areas you mention not being Israeli, is New Mexico not part of the USA ? Is any land won in warfare to be returned and to whom ? Didn't the former owner also acquire it through warfare ? How is it that all these special considerations are heaped upon the israeli's after the fact when none of the same considerations are demanded of others ?

Its pretty obvious the prejudice and bigotry involved in this issue.

Well if you delved into Jewish history you would be aware that Jews semenally decended from a mixture of Hittites and Arabs...they are not a Semitic people at all......the only Semitic people are the Palestinians...I trust the weather is fine in downtown Tele-Aviv ..Boston

LOL no, First Arab is a language group, not a culture, nationality or ethnicity. As far as the Judaic people being descendants of the hittites, as I recall this idea was first proposed in the 1930s and has never been confirmed and has little supporting evidence. The majority of evidence supports the Judaic people being descendant from the bronze age people known as the Hyksos.

And again with the mythos of palestinians, who you seem to insist are a distance genetic people. Or that seems to be your intent by questioning the origins of the Judaic people. Genetic studies show the palestinians being of general North African descent. A conglomeration of various tribal influences. If you have actual evidence to the contrary, published work ;--) I'd be happy to investigate it.

Best science thus far traces the judaic people back to the Hyksos, a primitive bronze age people living on the outskirts of other more powerful civilizations like the Egyptians of the time. Once again ref. Silberman and Finkelstein "The Bibble Unearthed" and no its not a secular work.

It looks like your argument is comprised of "the Judaic people didn't come from Judea and the various people who filtered into the area after the centuries long demise of the Judaic people are. Sorry but thats almost humorous. And not a shred of supporting data ?

Please lets keep the conversation to demonstrable realities. Wild to the point of comical claims do not advance our conversation or exchange of ideas.

 

[Boston1]

quote
PS Boston,in future address Palestine/Palestinians with a CAPITAL "P"...........at least give them that basic Cynosure...thanks steven
end quote

From what I can tell from the history of the word, if you are referencing the Arabic use of the term its actually Filastin but the term palestine was actually more of an insult in reference to the Judaic people of the area such that it detracted from there heritage with Judea, the areas proper name.

Quote
Though the definite origins of the word "Palestine" have been debated for years and are still not known for sure, the name is believed to be derived from the Egyptian and Hebrew word peleshet. Roughly translated to mean "rolling" or "migratory," the term was used to describe the inhabitants of the land to the northeast of Egypt - the Philistines. The Philistines were an Aegean people - more closely related to the Greeks and with no connection ethnically, linguisticly or historically with Arabia - who conquered in the 12th Century BCE the Mediterranean coastal plain that is now Israeland Gaza.

A derivitave of the name "Palestine" first appears in Greek literature in the 5th Century BCE when the historian Herodotus called the area "Palaistinē" (Greek - Παλαιστίνη). In the 2nd century CE, the Romans crushed the revolt of Shimon Bar Kokhba (132 CE), during which Jerusalem and Judea were regained and the area of Judea was renamed Palaestina in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel.

Under the Ottoman Empire (1517-1917), the term Palestine was used as a general term to describe the land south of Syria; it was not an official designation. In fact, many Ottomans and Arabs who lived in Palestine during this time period referred to the area as "Southern Syria" and not as "Palestine."

After World War I, the name "Palestine" was applied to the territory that was placed under British Mandate; this area included not only present-day Israel but also present-day Jordan.

Leading up to Israel's independence in 1948, it was common for the international press to label Jews, not Arabs, living in the mandate as Palestinians. It was not until years after Israeli independence that the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were called Palestinians. In fact, Arabs cannot even correctly pronounce the word Palestine in their native tongue, referring to area rather as“Filastin.”

The word Palestine or Filastin does not appear in the Koran. The term peleshet appears in the Jewish Tanakh no fewer than 250 times.

End Quote.


While I do most definitely appreciate the assistance with my English skill, which I apologize for right now, as I know my English is bad. I don't think we should be aggrandizing a term that was intended as an insult to the Judaic people by capitalizing it. Note even the term paleshet, ( last paragraph ) isn't capitalized.

If there is some reasonable justification for capitalizing this term, I'm all ears but from what I can see it would be like capitalizing any other derogatory.

Nice to see you can cut and paste but the reality is you are wrong,wrong,wrong..............some of your comments (Huhum are very strange indeed) I wiil be back

How so, its like if you called a place shitland and wanted to dignify it with a capitol S

I think you mean't Capital........Why are you calling Israel...SHITLAND??????? go wash your mouth out Bostie.steven

You are confused. Clearly Israel is the name of a country. Judea was the name of the former province under Roman rule. For various reasons it was changed as an insult to the Judaic people and called palestine. Palestine being a derogatory meant to minimize Jewish identification with ancient Judea since at this time Judaic people had been vanquished and largely driven from Judea.

So as a derogatory word I am hesitant to lend it any credence with a capital. As I said if instead of palestine we called it shitland, would you dignify the derogitory with a capital ? Oh and one other element of confusion. I don't consider ANY of the areas under Israeli influence to be palestine or ever palestinian. The area was always Judea as I am hesitant to use the derogatory reference applied to is by the enemies of Israel/Judea.

Oh and you might be interested to know that the word palaistine is Greek and can be translated to mean "wanderer"

You might also find it interesting that its very very hard to find a reference to the word when considering the local Arabs references to their own nationality of ethnicity PRIOR to the advent of revisionist history within the curriculum of "palestinian" run UN schools.

And yes I do use the term when referencing the Arabic people people found within Judea today. Its simply to difficult to distinguish each as Jordanian, Gazan, West bank, or israeli Arabs.

Anyway have fun with it, always entertaining discussing this issue. It would seem that nearly every element of the "palestinian" narrative is rife with revisionist histories. Its kinda a game of find the flaw.