Six ways from Sunday

Cherry-picking one survey to discredit a survey of scientists on climate change

Posted by Glenn Kessler at 06:00 AM ET, 05/08/2013

The Washington Post

Scientists are struggling to explain a slowdown in climate change that has exposed gaps in their understanding and defies a rise in global greenhouse gas emissions. (MICK TSIKAS/REUTERS - REUTERS)

"There is also uncertainty regarding to what degree man is to blame for global warming. However, the claim that 98 percent of scientists agree that humans are the singular driver of climate change has been repeatedly discounted. This oft-cited statistic is based on an online survey with a sample size of only 77 people, and the survey didn't even ask to what degree humans contribute to climate change." - Rep. Chris Stewart (R-Utah), chairman of the House Subcommittee on Environment, in an opinion article, April 13, 2013

Stewart is a freshman lawmaker who ended up with a plum position: heading a House panel on the environment. In an opinion article for the Salt Lake Tribune, he struck a cautious stance on climate change, arguing that the science is "anything but settled."

He, for instance, cited an interesting Economist article that the climate may be heating up less quickly in response to greenhouse gas emissions than previously thought. (He did not mention that the article also said "that does not mean the problem is going away.") For the purposes of this fact check, we will look at his claim about the 98 percent statistic, which he says "has been repeatedly discounted" and is based just on a survey of 77 people. What's he talking about?

The Facts

Stewart is referring to a survey done for the American Geophysical Union in 2009 by researchers for the University of Illinois in Chicago. Peter Doran, associate professor of earth and environmental sciences, along with former graduate student Maggie Kendall Zimmerman, in 2008 sent a simple survey with nine questions to more than 10,000 experts listed in the 2007 edition of the American Geological Institute's directory of geoscience departments.

They ended up getting responses from 3,146 scientists, and then publicized the results from two questions: (1) Have mean global temperatures risen compared to pre-1800s levels? (2) Has human activity been a significant factor in changing mean global temperatures? The results? About 90 percent of the scientists agreed with the first question and 82 percent with the second.

So where does the 98 percent statistic come from? That's from a subsample of the survey - climate scientists. The survey actually says the result is 97 percent, but Stewart is correct that it represented just a small group of people - 77 out of 79 people. Generally, with this sample size, one can expect a margin of error of about plus or minus 11 percentage points, or a range of 86 to 100 percent. That's still a pretty big margin.

Note that Stewart simply said "scientists" - not climate scientists. That makes a difference, as experts who study the climate appear much more convinced that human activity has affected the climate. That's shown by the survey, which found that less than half of petroleum geologists agreed with the second statement.

But Stewart ignored the main result from the survey of more than 3,000 people - that 82 percent of those surveyed believed human activity was a significant factor in higher global temperatures. That result has a margin of error of plus or minus 4 percentage points, and so it's a pretty strong majority.

Still, there have been concerns raised about the study. As Stewart noted, it was an opt-in online survey, and The Fact Checker has raised caution flags in the past about opt-in online polls . You generally cannot draw broad conclusions about such surveys. Critics have also focused on the wording of the questions in the survey, especially the second one. The question did not define the meaning of "significant," and one scientist might interpret the phrase differently from another. Professor Murray Goot of Macquarie University in Australia explored some of these issues in a 2011 paper, and he concluded that while questions could be raised about the phrasing of the questions and the methodology of the survey, the results were not significantly different from other surveys of scientists. Over time, such surveys have shown that increasingly large percentages of scientists believed that anthropogenic (human-generated) greenhouse gas emissions affected climate change. He concluded:
Concerns about the sampling and the number of respondents used in the Doran and Zimmerman study are secondary even when they are not misplaced. The key issue has to do with the wording of the questions. While the questions asked in Bray and von Storch [another survey of scientists] aren't exactly equivalent to the question 'Do you believe that anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions were the primary factor (50% or more) in the observed mean global temperature increase since the mid-20'th century?' they are sufficiently close - and the distribution of responses are sufficiently clear - to suggest that the results reported by Doran and Zimmerman are unlikely, in any very material sense, to be misleading. Doran, in an e-mail, said that Stewart's reference to the survey in the opinion article was "very misleading." He said that the 79 climate scientists were "undeniable experts" - who both list climate science as their area of expertise and have published more than 50 percent of their recent peer-reviewed papers on the subject of climate change. He said 75 of 77 individuals, or 97.4 percent, agreed with the second statement; two of the 79 didn't answer this particular question.

Doran said that "'significant' to scientists has clear meaning. It refers to a meaningful relationship - not random. We thought carefully about the exact wording and worked closely with a survey expert to design the questions." He added: "There was no bias in picking these people. It was just whoever was listed in the directory which was the best source of contact information for earth scientists we could find. This in itself was no easy task. There is no electronic version of this database, so we cut the spline off the directory and scanned every page, ran the scanned pages through an optical character recognition program, and created a spreadsheet with names and emails that required a lot of cleaning of the raw scans to get to a viable mailing list. Of the >10,000 invitations to participate that went out, over 3,146 scientists responded to the survey. For an online survey of very busy people, this was a fantastic response."

Meanwhile, since 2009, there have been other surveys that also have mirrored the survey for the AGU. Rather than using a poll, another group of researchers in 2010 attempted to discern the opinion of climate researchers by examining their published work. This survey examined the published writings of about 1,000 scientists and concluded that 97 to 98 percent of the most actively published scientists had "striking agreement" with the primary conclusions of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC): that human-generated greenhouse gases have been responsible for "most"of the "unequivocal" warming of the Earth's average global temperature. Another approach was used by a different survey published in 2010, which asked more detailed questions than the Doran-Zimmerman study. This survey also found "significant agreement among scientists on nearly all elements of the climate change debate, except for a minority of ideologically conservative scientists who are less supportive of some policy choices, such as imposing taxes to discourage certain practices." There are clearly some scientists who do not support this consensus. Readers frequently e-mail The Fact Checker a list of 1,000 "international scientists" who have listed themselves as skeptics of man-made climate change. As the surveys listed above have demonstrated, there are certainly some scientists who are skeptical, even more so if they are not climate specialists. But such a self-selected survey does not provide a true picture of what most scientists believe in a rigorous and statistical manner.

Allison Barker, a spokeswoman for Stewart, thanked us for flagging the 2010 survey of climate researchers. "We will be sure to check that out, and the congressman can use that in future material," she said in an e-mail after we noted he seemed to be cherry-picking just one survey. We appreciate his staff's willingness to examine the issue in more depth.

The Pinocchio Test

Stewart is trying to stack the deck here. He focuses on one small aspect of the survey - the result of a relatively small sample of climate scientists - while ignoring the broader result that found a substantial majority of scientists believed that humans have made a significant contribution to climate change. Moreover, he ignores the many other surveys that have found results very similar to the survey he referenced, whatever its possible flaws. We wavered between Three and Four Pinocchios on this claim, but in the end settled on Four. Stewart, after all, is chairman of an environmental panel. He said the results of this survey have been "repeatedly discounted." He should know that beyond this single survey, there are many more that back up its findings on the broad support among scientists - particularly climate researchers - regarding the impact that humans have on climate change.
 
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The problem is that the original raw temperature data is not available anymore, it's been sanitized, homogenized, and smoothed by programs written poorly.

In 99% if cases, the raw data IS available.
 
You write a module for the NYSExchange and you can stream ADEQUATE data for testing in a couple days. When you attempt climate and you only have a couple thousand data points of historical 50 or 100 yr data -- you better take more time to call it "working"..

The NYSE doesn't operate according to the laws of physics. Besides which, you have no idea how much time and effort was put into ANY of these models. How much advanced mathematics does it take to monitor sales and tally the totals?
 
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I guess I have to do your work for you

Surveys that give other results:

Peer-Reviewed Survey Finds Majority Of Scientists Skeptical Of Global Warming Crisis - Forbes

Meteorologists Reject U.N.?s Global Warming Claims | Heartlander Magazine

Shock Poll: Meteorologists Are Global Warming Skeptics - Forbes

The two Forbes articles are both by James Taylor, a regular Forbes contributor who actually works for Heartland Institute. Thus, all three of these articles are actually the work of Heartland.

Before we get to 'your help'... Some old biz..

When you try to make the point that there is OVERWHELMING consensus and the opposition should just relent and roll-over --- It doesn't help your cause to be citing surveys from 2004 and 2007 on the Wiki.. More than 1/2 of your OP is PRE-ClimateGate emails and NOT in any way informative of CURRENT opinion...

So we MIGHT want to pick one or two of your POST 2012 surveys for discussion.. I'd be happy to review those with you..

NOW --- as to your assertions above..

Your reading comprehension is very lacking.. The two Forbes articles are NOT about anyone from Heartland. I looked at the first Forbes article you cited and they MENTION some Heartland studies --- but the article itself is about ANOTHER STUDY.. This one from....

Science or Science Fiction? Professionals? Discursive Construction of Climate Change

Science or Science Fiction? Professionals’ Discursive Construction of Climate Change
Lianne M. Lefsrud
University of Alberta, Canada
Renate E. Meyer
Vienna University of Economics and Business, Austria and Copenhagen Business School, Denmark
Lianne M. Lefsrud, Alberta School of Business, University of Alberta, Edmonton T6G 2R6, Canada Email: [email protected]

Funding ---- This research is funded by the Canadian Centre for Corporate Social Responsibility, Social Science and Humanities Research Council of Canada (SSHRC) Fellowship, Killam Foundation Fellowship, Alberta Innovates – Alberta Water Research Institute, and Engineers Canada. Earlier versions of this paper were improved through presentations at EGOS Colloquia in 2009 and 2010 and ETH Academy on Sustainability and Technology in 2011. All remaining mistakes and oddities are the authors’ responsibility.

Understand that I WOULD REJECT polling from a group like Heartland --- but not neccessarily reject automatically any scientific assertions from them without vetting the assertions myself.. Just like I do constantly with the group of Misinformed and Propaganda Parroting warmers on USMB..

So --- thanks for that recent study.. I like the methodology. Much better to get a DEEPER picture of what tech people are saying on the subject.. So what do the results look like?

Frame 1: Comply with Kyoto

The largest group of APEGA respondents (36%) draws on a frame that we label ‘comply with Kyoto’. In their diagnostic framing, they express the strong belief that climate change is happening, that it is not a normal cycle of nature, and humans are the main or central cause. Supporters of the Kyoto Protocol consider climate change to be a significant public risk and see an impact on their personal life. In their prognostic framing,

Frame 2: Nature is overwhelming

The second largest group (24%) express a ‘nature is overwhelming’ frame. In their diagnostic framing, they believe that changes to the climate are natural, normal cycles of the Earth. Their focus is on the past: ‘If you think about it, global warming is what brought us out of the Ice Age.’ Humans are too insignificant to have an impact on nature: ‘It is a mistake to think that human activity can change this… It would be like an ant in a bowling ball who thinks it can have a significant influence the roll of the ball.’ More than others, they strongly disagree that climate change poses any significant public risk and see no impact on their personal lives

Frame 3: Economic responsibility

Ten percent of respondents draw on an ‘economic responsibility’ frame. They diagnose climate change as being natural or human caused. More than any other group, they underscore that the ‘real’ cause of climate change is unknown as nature is forever changing and uncontrollable. Similar to the ‘nature is overwhelming’ adherents, they disagree that climate change poses any significant public risk and see no impact on their personal life. They are also less likely to believe that the scientific debate is settled and that the IPCC modeling is accurate. In their prognostic framing, they point to the harm the Kyoto Protocol and all regulation will do to the economy. For them, any solution must protect the economy. More than others, they invoke the public interest and the need to promote an informed debate and to educate others, and recommend enhancing efficiency and competitiveness:

Frame 4: Fatalists

‘Fatalists’, a surprisingly large group (17%), diagnose climate change as both human- and naturally caused. ‘Fatalists’ consider climate change to be a smaller public risk with little impact on their personal life. They are sceptical that the scientific debate is settled regarding the IPCC modeling: ‘The number of variables and their interrelationships are almost unlimited – if anyone thinks they have all the answers, they have failed to ask all of the questions.’ ‘Fatalists’ consider the Kyoto Protocol as ‘too late’ and irrelevant. They are much less likely to support regulation generally, but do also not care about the economy, and are much less likely to express emotions (except for denying responsibility), or use symbolism and metaphors.

Frame 5: Regulation activists

The last group (5%) expresses a frame we call ‘regulation activists’. This frame has the smallest number of adherents, expresses the most paradoxical framing, and yet is more agentic than ‘comply with Kyoto’. Advocates of this frame diagnose climate change as being both human- and naturally caused, posing a moderate public risk, with only slight impact on their personal life. Advocates do not significantly vary from the mean in how they consider the magnitude, extent, or time scale of climate change. They are also sceptical with regard to the scientific debate being settled and are the most indecisive whether IPCC modeling is accurate: ‘the largest challenge is to find out what the real truth is… I don’t know what the impact really is. I suspect it is not good.’ Despite their seemingly ambivalent stance, they are most likely to believe that nature is our responsibility

I'll buy that.. I'm not in 1, 4 or 5.. So that leaves 2 and 3.. Fair enough...
These numbers state that 56% reject the idea that "the science is settled"....

Go help some more...... :lol: :lol:

Yes.. I quoted myself.. Are you bailing on your own topic? Did you miss this? Or just don't have a comment?
 
You write a module for the NYSExchange and you can stream ADEQUATE data for testing in a couple days. When you attempt climate and you only have a couple thousand data points of historical 50 or 100 yr data -- you better take more time to call it "working"..

The NYSE doesn't operate according to the laws of physics. Besides which, you have no idea how much time and effort was put into ANY of these models. How much advanced mathematics does it take to monitor sales and tally the totals?

For a compentent programmer --- you missed the point. Even assuming there IS a correct physics model behind the code (which there is NOT for critical Climate Science segments like Climate Sensitivy) --- there is darn near NOTHING to test it with.. You back 25 years for reliable satellite data, another 50 for sensor measurements and everything else is proxy and equivocable. Typical testing strategies like backcasting and splitting the data set leave you with even less to test with..

The point was --- testing a model based on a hefty data record like a merchant exchange gives you FAR MORE confidence in the ACCURACY of the code. And writing for the NYSE is hellaciously more complex because of the timing challenges and complexity of staying ahead of the volume in real time..
 
You don't get closer to real time by adding complexity.

Backcasting doesn't reduce your data set. It gives you confidence in your model.

The amount of historical data is unlikely to increase substantially. Given your criticisms, I suggest you reject all climatic data prior to the instrumented record. Then you can stop going endlessly on about the LIA and MWP. Deal?
 
Let's get back on topic.

Five separate surveys show ovewhelming majorities of the world's climate scientists believe global warming has been caused primarily by the greenhouse effect acting on the increased CO2 from human GHG emissions. The warming from the CO2 has led to several different positive feedbacks: decreased albedo from loss of snow and ice, increased water vapor from higher temperatures, increased methane releases from melting tundra, etc, etc, etc.

Surveys showing anything different are rare and weak.
 
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I guess I have to do your work for you

Surveys that give other results:

Peer-Reviewed Survey Finds Majority Of Scientists Skeptical Of Global Warming Crisis - Forbes

Meteorologists Reject U.N.?s Global Warming Claims | Heartlander Magazine

Shock Poll: Meteorologists Are Global Warming Skeptics - Forbes

The two Forbes articles are both by James Taylor, a regular Forbes contributor who actually works for Heartland Institute. Thus, all three of these articles are actually the work of Heartland.

Before we get to 'your help'... Some old biz..

When you try to make the point that there is OVERWHELMING consensus and the opposition should just relent and roll-over --- It doesn't help your cause to be citing surveys from 2004 and 2007 on the Wiki.. More than 1/2 of your OP is PRE-ClimateGate emails and NOT in any way informative of CURRENT opinion...

So we MIGHT want to pick one or two of your POST 2012 surveys for discussion.. I'd be happy to review those with you..

NOW --- as to your assertions above..

Your reading comprehension is very lacking.. The two Forbes articles are NOT about anyone from Heartland. I looked at the first Forbes article you cited and they MENTION some Heartland studies --- but the article itself is about ANOTHER STUDY.. This one from....



Understand that I WOULD REJECT polling from a group like Heartland --- but not neccessarily reject automatically any scientific assertions from them without vetting the assertions myself.. Just like I do constantly with the group of Misinformed and Propaganda Parroting warmers on USMB..

So --- thanks for that recent study.. I like the methodology. Much better to get a DEEPER picture of what tech people are saying on the subject.. So what do the results look like?

Frame 1: Comply with Kyoto

The largest group of APEGA respondents (36%) draws on a frame that we label ‘comply with Kyoto’. In their diagnostic framing, they express the strong belief that climate change is happening, that it is not a normal cycle of nature, and humans are the main or central cause. Supporters of the Kyoto Protocol consider climate change to be a significant public risk and see an impact on their personal life. In their prognostic framing,

Frame 2: Nature is overwhelming

The second largest group (24%) express a ‘nature is overwhelming’ frame. In their diagnostic framing, they believe that changes to the climate are natural, normal cycles of the Earth. Their focus is on the past: ‘If you think about it, global warming is what brought us out of the Ice Age.’ Humans are too insignificant to have an impact on nature: ‘It is a mistake to think that human activity can change this… It would be like an ant in a bowling ball who thinks it can have a significant influence the roll of the ball.’ More than others, they strongly disagree that climate change poses any significant public risk and see no impact on their personal lives

Frame 3: Economic responsibility

Ten percent of respondents draw on an ‘economic responsibility’ frame. They diagnose climate change as being natural or human caused. More than any other group, they underscore that the ‘real’ cause of climate change is unknown as nature is forever changing and uncontrollable. Similar to the ‘nature is overwhelming’ adherents, they disagree that climate change poses any significant public risk and see no impact on their personal life. They are also less likely to believe that the scientific debate is settled and that the IPCC modeling is accurate. In their prognostic framing, they point to the harm the Kyoto Protocol and all regulation will do to the economy. For them, any solution must protect the economy. More than others, they invoke the public interest and the need to promote an informed debate and to educate others, and recommend enhancing efficiency and competitiveness:

Frame 4: Fatalists

‘Fatalists’, a surprisingly large group (17%), diagnose climate change as both human- and naturally caused. ‘Fatalists’ consider climate change to be a smaller public risk with little impact on their personal life. They are sceptical that the scientific debate is settled regarding the IPCC modeling: ‘The number of variables and their interrelationships are almost unlimited – if anyone thinks they have all the answers, they have failed to ask all of the questions.’ ‘Fatalists’ consider the Kyoto Protocol as ‘too late’ and irrelevant. They are much less likely to support regulation generally, but do also not care about the economy, and are much less likely to express emotions (except for denying responsibility), or use symbolism and metaphors.

Frame 5: Regulation activists

The last group (5%) expresses a frame we call ‘regulation activists’. This frame has the smallest number of adherents, expresses the most paradoxical framing, and yet is more agentic than ‘comply with Kyoto’. Advocates of this frame diagnose climate change as being both human- and naturally caused, posing a moderate public risk, with only slight impact on their personal life. Advocates do not significantly vary from the mean in how they consider the magnitude, extent, or time scale of climate change. They are also sceptical with regard to the scientific debate being settled and are the most indecisive whether IPCC modeling is accurate: ‘the largest challenge is to find out what the real truth is… I don’t know what the impact really is. I suspect it is not good.’ Despite their seemingly ambivalent stance, they are most likely to believe that nature is our responsibility

I'll buy that.. I'm not in 1, 4 or 5.. So that leaves 2 and 3.. Fair enough...
These numbers state that 56% reject the idea that "the science is settled"....

Go help some more...... :lol: :lol:

Yes.. I quoted myself.. Are you bailing on your own topic? Did you miss this? Or just don't have a comment?

Yes. Bumped it again. Why DONT U want 2 getback on topic?
 
Let's get back on topic.

Five separate surveys show ovewhelming majorities of the world's climate scientists believe global warming has been caused primarily by the greenhouse effect acting on the increased CO2 from human GHG emissions. The warming from the CO2 has led to several different positive feedbacks: decreased albedo from loss of snow and ice, increased water vapor from higher temperatures, increased methane releases from melting tundra, etc, etc, etc.

Surveys showing anything different are rare and weak.



Honestly, I cannot fathom how anyone can be certain on this topic. I can understand taking a side, but not in being sure that your side is correct.

Abe- you think that increased temps have caused more evaporation, right? maybe, but humidity is down. perhaps that means it rains out sooner, and we all know that the climate models make a hash of the water cycle. are clouds a positive or negative feedback? intuatively I would say they are a governor that keeps ocean temps in a certain range depending on conditions but it doesnt appear that anyone knows definitively. but just about everybody agrees that the uncertainty in the water cycle swamps out the effect of CO2. CO2 is only a danger if water amplifies it. no hot spot, no problem. perhaps CO2 could turn out to be a problem in the long run, BUT NOT AS CO2 THEORY STANDS TODAY!
 
Let's get back on topic.

Five separate surveys show ovewhelming majorities of the world's climate scientists believe global warming has been caused primarily by the greenhouse effect acting on the increased CO2 from human GHG emissions. The warming from the CO2 has led to several different positive feedbacks: decreased albedo from loss of snow and ice, increased water vapor from higher temperatures, increased methane releases from melting tundra, etc, etc, etc.

Surveys showing anything different are rare and weak.



Honestly, I cannot fathom how anyone can be certain on this topic. I can understand taking a side, but not in being sure that your side is correct.

Abe- you think that increased temps have caused more evaporation, right? maybe, but humidity is down. perhaps that means it rains out sooner, and we all know that the climate models make a hash of the water cycle. are clouds a positive or negative feedback? intuatively I would say they are a governor that keeps ocean temps in a certain range depending on conditions but it doesnt appear that anyone knows definitively. but just about everybody agrees that the uncertainty in the water cycle swamps out the effect of CO2. CO2 is only a danger if water amplifies it. no hot spot, no problem. perhaps CO2 could turn out to be a problem in the long run, BUT NOT AS CO2 THEORY STANDS TODAY!

Let's try this again.

FIVE SURVEYS SHOW A VAST MAJORITY OF CLIMATE SCIENTISTS ACCEPT AGW AS VALID.

THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD IS THIS SET OF SURVEYS. THE TOPIC IS NOT THE CO2 CYCLE OR THE EFFECTS OF WATER VAPOR.
 
If 97% of the experts believe AGW, it is very likely to be correct.

The cost of ignoring real AGW is orders of magnitude higher than responding to a false AGW.

We should be working much harder than we are to reduce our carbon emissions.
 
Let's get back on topic.

Five separate surveys show ovewhelming majorities of the world's climate scientists believe global warming has been caused primarily by the greenhouse effect acting on the increased CO2 from human GHG emissions. The warming from the CO2 has led to several different positive feedbacks: decreased albedo from loss of snow and ice, increased water vapor from higher temperatures, increased methane releases from melting tundra, etc, etc, etc.

Surveys showing anything different are rare and weak.



Honestly, I cannot fathom how anyone can be certain on this topic. I can understand taking a side, but not in being sure that your side is correct.

Abe- you think that increased temps have caused more evaporation, right? maybe, but humidity is down. perhaps that means it rains out sooner, and we all know that the climate models make a hash of the water cycle. are clouds a positive or negative feedback? intuatively I would say they are a governor that keeps ocean temps in a certain range depending on conditions but it doesnt appear that anyone knows definitively. but just about everybody agrees that the uncertainty in the water cycle swamps out the effect of CO2. CO2 is only a danger if water amplifies it. no hot spot, no problem. perhaps CO2 could turn out to be a problem in the long run, BUT NOT AS CO2 THEORY STANDS TODAY!

Let's try this again.

FIVE SURVEYS SHOW A VAST MAJORITY OF CLIMATE SCIENTISTS ACCEPT AGW AS VALID.

THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD IS THIS SET OF SURVEYS. THE TOPIC IS NOT THE CO2 CYCLE OR THE EFFECTS OF WATER VAPOR.





Who cares. They were wrong in the 1970's as well when they were worried there would be a new ice age soon. they were wrong when they claimed back in the 1990's that children wouldn't know what snow was in winter.

They have been wrong on every point so who gives a toss what they think. They clearly don't think very well.
 
If 97% of the experts believe AGW, it is very likely to be correct.

The cost of ignoring real AGW is orders of magnitude higher than responding to a false AGW.

We should be working much harder than we are to reduce our carbon emissions.





Yeah that same percentage believed the world was flat too. We showed them to be wrong then as well.
 
Who cares.

People interested in knowing what's actually going on.

They were wrong in the 1970's as well when they were worried there would be a new ice age soon.

The proportion of climate scientists concerned about an ice age in the 1970's was a tiny fraction of the numbers that today are convinced of the accuracy of AGW.

they were wrong when they claimed back in the 1990's that children wouldn't know what snow was in winter.

For that one - who cares.

They have been wrong on every point so who gives a toss what they think. They clearly don't think very well.

The people who believe AGW to be a valid theory have created the most accurate models which have produced the most accurate predictions of any available. You and yours keep going on and on about errors in predictions and screwed up models. Well... WHERE ARE YOURS?

NO CLIMATE MODEL THAT FAILS TO USE AGW HAS EVER RECREATED THE CLIMATE'S BEHAVIOR OF THE LAST 150 YEARS. NONE.
 
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Who cares.

People interested in knowing what's actually going on.

They were wrong in the 1970's as well when they were worried there would be a new ice age soon.

The proportion of climate scientists concerned about an ice age in the 1970's was a tiny fraction of the numbers that today are convinced of the accuracy of AGW.

they were wrong when they claimed back in the 1990's that children wouldn't know what snow was in winter.

For that one - who cares.

They have been wrong on every point so who gives a toss what they think. They clearly don't think very well.

The people who believe AGW to be a valid theory have created the most accurate models which have produced the most accurate predictions of any available. You and yours keep going on and on about errors in predictions and screwed up models. Well... WHERE ARE YOURS?

NO CLIMATE MODEL THAT FAILS TO USE AGW HAS EVER RECREATED THE CLIMATE'S BEHAVIOR OF THE LAST 150 YEARS. NONE.






No climate model in existence can recreate the weather we had yesterday you fool. Even with absolutely perfect knowledge of every variable they can't do crap. No climate model has ever predicted ANYTHING! The models are so bad that a recent MIT paper (you know who they are...right?) had this to say about them......

Climate Change Policy: What Do the Models Tell Us?
Robert S. Pindyck
NBER Working Paper No. 19244
July 2013
JEL No. D81,Q5,Q54
ABSTRACT
Very little. A plethora of integrated assessment models (IAMs) have been constructed and used to
estimate the social cost of carbon (SCC) and evaluate alternative abatement policies. These models
have crucial flaws that make them close to useless as tools for policy analysis: certain inputs (e.g. the
discount rate) are arbitrary, but have huge effects on the SCC estimates the models produce; the models'
descriptions of the impact of climate change are completely ad hoc, with no theoretical or empirical
foundation; and the models can tell us nothing about the most important driver of the SCC, the possibility
of a catastrophic climate outcome
. IAM-based analyses of climate policy create a perception of knowledge
and precision, but that perception is illusory and misleading



Quite an accomplishment to hang your hat on.:cuckoo:



http://web.mit.edu/rpindyck/www/Papers/Climate-Change-Policy-What-Do-the-Models-Tell-Us.pdf
 
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They were wrong in the 1970's as well when they were worried there would be a new ice age soon.

But they didn't say that. You're not even bothering to pay lip service to the truth any longer.

Not your fault, really, since you don't seem capable any longer of distinguishing right from wrong. That's how it works with cults. They create a new reality for the cultists, one where the cult is always perfect, and where anyone who disagrees with the cult has to be lying.
 
They were wrong in the 1970's as well when they were worried there would be a new ice age soon.

But they didn't say that. You're not even bothering to pay lip service to the truth any longer.

Not your fault, really, since you don't seem capable any longer of distinguishing right from wrong. That's how it works with cults. They create a new reality for the cultists, one where the cult is always perfect, and where anyone who disagrees with the cult has to be lying.







Yes, you are an excellent example of that cult behavior. I notice you avoided the post that showed the massive sea ice buildup (counter to the fraudsters predictions) and avoided the response above about just how really, truly, awful the computer climate models are....I believe the term was "close to useless".
 
I notice you avoided the post that showed the massive sea ice buildup

If you were a retard ... and you are ... you could claim that this year's very low ice level is a "massive sea ice buildup". According to your 'tard logic, anything less than a new record each year is a "massive sea ice buildup".

(counter to the fraudsters predictions)

But no one made that prediction. Why you thought you could get away with such a wild claim, only you can explain.

Okay, I'm guessing somewhere, someone made that prediction. Why you thought you could extrapolate one person into everyone without being called on such brazen dishonesty, only you can explain.

and avoided the response above about just how really, truly, awful the computer climate models are...

But we've often discussed your insanity there. It's kind of funny, how you think you can just make up any crap story you want about people. Anything for the glory of the cult, eh?

As we've discussed, the models are very good. Yes, I know that in your cult unreality bubble that's not the case, but that's your cult's problem.

So, two whoppers and two 'tard arguments in one post. Way to go! Do you get points with the cult for that? At this rate, you'll score that cool denialist ballcap soon.
 
I notice you avoided the post that showed the massive sea ice buildup

If you were a retard ... and you are ... you could claim that this year's very low ice level is a "massive sea ice buildup". According to your 'tard logic, anything less than a new record each year is a "massive sea ice buildup".

(counter to the fraudsters predictions)

But no one made that prediction. Why you thought you could get away with such a wild claim, only you can explain.

Okay, I'm guessing somewhere, someone made that prediction. Why you thought you could extrapolate one person into everyone without being called on such brazen dishonesty, only you can explain.

and avoided the response above about just how really, truly, awful the computer climate models are...

But we've often discussed your insanity there. It's kind of funny, how you think you can just make up any crap story you want about people. Anything for the glory of the cult, eh?

As we've discussed, the models are very good. Yes, I know that in your cult unreality bubble that's not the case, but that's your cult's problem.

So, two whoppers and two 'tard arguments in one post. Way to go! Do you get points with the cult for that? At this rate, you'll score that cool denialist ballcap soon.









This is from these guys. Yellow is what it was like last year. Red is what is missing this year. Green is what has been ADDED this year. You were saying? Oh right...that was your mouth was moving so clearly there was nothing important coming out of it. Certainly nothing factual...

screenhunter_368-aug-25-05-31.jpg




http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/cgi-bin/seaice-monitor.cgi?lang=e
 

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