Sir Arthur Harris: Dutiful Soldier or War Criminal?

[whitehall]

I don’t care about the “future of the British Empire,” which fall apart after the war anyway, the “petriotism” of this pig-like policy does not interest me either I am talking directly about crimes.

By the way, the British imperialists shed a lot of blood in the USA too

It's spelled "patriotism" not petriotism. How can you charge a P.M. with a war crime for not helping a nation that couldn't help itself? If you want to throw similar charges around you could consider American president FDR who turned away Jewish refugees.

 

[rupol2000]

for not helping

This is the lie that just discussed. Are you pretending you can't read?

 

[Ringo]

The author of the plan of massive bombing of Germany is responsible, according to some estimates, for 600 thousand German deaths. Harris considered it absurd to kill guys at the front and spare girls in factory workshops collecting hundreds of bombs per shift.

British aviation operated in the most severe conditions. Frequent were missions in which from a third to half of the crews died. Until 1944, there were no fighters capable of escorting bombers to enemy industrial centers. It was Harris who developed the tactics of the "flow" of Lancaster bombers with a continuous zone of fire from onboard machine guns and insisted on the demolition of urban development from the maximum height to reduce his own losses.

His planes bombed factories and dams, turned working quarters into ruins, and together with the Americans stopped up to 90% of German enterprises for the distillation of synthetic fuel.

Thank you for your service, sir!

 

[Mushroom]

Odd source.

Yes, I saw that as well.

The aim of the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust is to promote intellectual freedom regarding the "Holocaust" and to offer a forum to those who contest the orthodox Holocaust narrative.

In other words, it is a group of Pro-Nazi Holocaust deniers. So it is no surprise that anybody that helped to take down their Glorious Third Reich is a war criminal to them.

 

[Mushroom]

I am not going to read this link (though I would like to) because I am already familiar with the subject. As I have been led to understand Germany mistakenly bombed civilians and they apologised for it - or maybe I have confused the incident with some other one? - but the UK decided to treat it as an intentional attack on non-combatants and decided to send in Bomber Harris to do his worst. If that is true then the UK is at fault and Harris might have been guilty (depending upon the range of his orders and "freehand") of being a war criminal.

Partially true.

At that time in the war, the UK and Germany both tried to target only military facilities. But by even halfway though the war, both sides had abandoned that. Almost none of the German "Vengeance" weapons were targeted at military facilities. London (and later Paris) were the primary targets of both.

 

[Mushroom]

What is CODOH and why would the modern Brit "CODOH" target one of their own WW2 heroes as a "war criminal"?

It is the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust.

The aim of the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust is to promote intellectual freedom regarding the "Holocaust" and to offer a forum to those who contest the orthodox Holocaust narrative.

In other words, real and actual Nazi lovers.

And I am laughing at the fact that Ringo is actually supporting them and their claims. It is funny, cloak a group of Nazis behind another name, and that "Paragon of Leftism and Communism" is all in support of them.

 

[Ringo]

This scenario was already worked out in the 30s by the Bolsheviks, they made hungry pestilences in the fertile regions of Russia and Ukraine, taking away the entire harvest

Filthy lie.

 

[Mushroom]

Filthy lie.

So somebody who denies the Holodomor also supports people who deny the Holocaust.

I see that the apple does not fall far from the tree indeed. And proof that there is really no difference between Nazis and Marxists. Just in who they wanted the top boss to be.

Both deny reality and ignore facts if they do not like them.

 

[surada]

It's spelled "patriotism" not petriotism. How can you charge a P.M. with a war crime for not helping a nation that couldn't help itself? If you want to throw similar charges around you could consider American president FDR who turned away Jewish refugees.

He gassed the Kurds and Iraqis in 1920.

 

[Ringo]

So somebody who denies the Holodomor also supports people who deny the Holocaust.

Do you know what the anti-soviets mean by the term Holodomor? They imply that the famine was CREATED by the Soviet government specifically to destroy a significant part of the population of Ukraine. This is a dirty, stinking lie. And only people with brains, brainwashed from childhood, can believe in this.
And when people start to believe in this... then there are no limits on what they can be made to believe.
For example, that there are 57 genders or that a man can marry a man...
In fact, it was a famine that occurred as a result of bad harvest, at a very unfortunate moment when agriculture was being transformed in the USSR. This famine was not only in Soviet Ukraine, but also in parts ofUkraine, which at that time was under the rule of Poland. In addition, this happened outside of Ukraine, in the Volga region and Kazakhstan. The Soviet authorities took measures to combat hunger, for example, an order was given to return grain ships that were traveling from the USSR abroad.
Famine was a constant phenomenon in tsarist Russia, sometimes claiming hundreds of thousands of lives. And malnutrition was a constant companion of life in village for the majority of the population. After the creation of collective farms, such a phenomenon as famine disappeared forever from Soviet Russia.
The Holodomor, like many other propaganda myths of the Cold War, were born in the bowels of Goebbels' propaganda ministry. Why was it picked up by the participants of the Cold War? Answer this question yourself.

 

[surada]

Holodomor - Wikipedia

Holodomor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Holodomor , also known as the Terror-Famine and sometimes referred to as the Great Famine, was a famine in Soviet Ukraine from 1932 to 1933 that killed millions of Ukrainians. The term Holodomor emphasises the famine's man-made and intentional aspects such as rejection of outside aid, confiscation of all household foodstuffs and restriction of population movement.

The word Holodomor literally translated from Ukrainian means "death by hunger", "killing by hunger, killing by starvation", or sometimes "murder by hunger or starvation." It is a compound of the Ukrainian words holod, 'hunger'; and mor, 'plague'. The expression moryty holodom means "to inflict death by hunger." The Ukrainian verb moryty (морити) means "to poison, to drive to exhaustion, or to torment." The

 

[Mushroom]

And when people start to believe in this... then there are no limits on what they can be made to believe.

As I said, when somebody who is a Holodomor Denier it is nor surprising when they see nothing wrong with things said by Holocaust Deniers.

 

[Ringo]

The term Holodomor emphasises the famine's man-made and intentional

Yes, this is exactly what Goebbels' propaganda meant.

 

[Ringo]

As I said, when somebody who is a Holodomor Denier it is nor surprising when they see nothing wrong with things said by Holocaust Deniers.

This is a problem with you, who grew up in dirty, false propaganda. But I know perfectly well the difference between the Goebbels' Holodomor and the Goebbels' Holocaust - he invented the first, and carried out the second.

 

[Mushroom]

After the creation of collective farms, such a phenomenon as famine disappeared forever from Soviet Russia.

Right!

That was why the Soviets were so freaking careful whenever they were negotiating with the US when President Reagan was in office. By that time they were importing huge amounts of wheat from the US because they could not produce enough. From 19984-1985, they imported over 55 million tons of wheat from the US alone. A total which is still the world record of any nation for the importation of wheat.

But yes, it "disappeared forever". The marvels of Collectivization and the marvels of Communist manpower.

Oh, and the US willing to sell food to anybody that needs it.

Now here is the real question, what would have happened if say the US had said "No"? Hmm? Can you say "famine"?

 

[Mushroom]

This is a problem with you, who grew up in dirty, false propaganda.

And you are a child that believes nothing but.

Here is the funny thing, I am actually pretty damned neutral. I have no strong political stance, and as you have seen will laugh at both Right and Left pretty equally. And it also helps me to see when either side is full of crap, especially if they have to twist and turn in order to try and make their case.

With you, the very fact that every single time you really can not refute something or provide evidence, you just scream it is "propaganda". And normally "Nazi Propaganda". I have seen you make the exact same claim so many times now, that it is to be honest simply become annoying background noise now. Kind of the reverse of Litwin's constant screaming and crying about "Moscovites". I see him as the exact same kind of buffoon you are, just on the other side.

 

[Ringo]

Now here is the real question, what would have happened if say the US had said "No"? Hmm? Can you say "famine"?

USSR would manage. BTW, the grain, that USSR was buying was intended for livestock, the USSR grew enough grain for people.

 

[Mushroom]

USSR would manage. BTW, the grain, that USSR was buying was intended for livestock, the USSR grew enough grain for people.

Oh, right...

That is why they screamed that they had to have the deal, and whined to the world in 1980 when President Carter put on an embargo on wheat that it could lead to starvation.

Gee, and now that I think even more about it, that makes even less sense. So let me see if I get this right, they imported over 55 million tons of high quality and priced US wheat, to give to animals. You know, that is really strange, since in most places the animals get the castoffs and not the "good stuff". But say I even accept this nonsensical claim. What would have happened to the livestock industry in the USSR if it was over 55 million tons short? I would guess they would have lost a significant portion of it.

And, would that not also be a famine, without the hundreds of millions tons of meat those 55 million tons of grain would have fed?

See, this is what I find so funny so often. I give things like specific years and amounts, you scream propaganda. And it is not even good propaganda, because you can not even take your very own claim to the next logical step to see if it makes sense.

But I will humor you a bit more. How about a reference to confirm your claim that the 55 million tons of wheat was to feed animals. And without it the Soviets would have been just fine.

 

[Ringo]

you really can not refute something or provide evidence, you just scream it is "propaganda".

What kind of evidence do you need? You understand, one fool will say something stupid, just one sentence, to which you can answer "Get out, idiot" and he may well start shouting: "Aha! you have no proof ! So I'm right!" You see, you need to do a lot of work for this..., well, that's what I did for you in the question about the Nazi flags at the Victory Parade in 1945. But to do this every time? And for free? It's not capitalistic.
However, write some stupid sentence and I will try to cover it with facts as a charity

 

[Mushroom]

What kind of evidence do you need? You understand, one fool will say something stupid, just one sentence, to which you can answer "Get out, idiot" and he may well start shouting: "Aha! you have no proof ! So I'm right!" You see, you need to do a lot of work for this..., well, that's what I did for you in the question about the Nazi flags at the Victory Parade in 1945. But to do this every time? And for free? It's not capitalistic.
However, write some stupid sentence and I will try to cover it with facts

OK Leftwin.