Should Japan be allowed nuclear weapons?

[EvilEyeFleegle]

Yes, they should be allowed...they of all countries should be allowed since they are the only country in history who had nukes used against them.....


Takes quite a bit of imperialistic audacity to dictate to them what they can and can't have; with our track record of being the only country to use them....and to do it for no reason but to show off...

Manhattan Project factoid--there were two groups working on a bomb. One was all about U-232--the other...Plutonium.
The first bomb..Hiroshima, was a U-232 bomb. The 2nd plutonium. One of each was made. When the Japanese did not immediately surrender, not that they could have possibly done so, given the realities of both the Japanese govt. but also the difficulty of communication , the 2nd bomb was dropped. While it was a near miss..the force of the explosion...much bigger yield than the 1st, cemented Plutonium as the way to go.

 

[Biff_Poindexter]

Manhattan Project factoid--there were two groups working on a bomb. One was all about U-232--the other...Plutonium.
The first bomb..Hiroshima, was a U-232 bomb. The 2nd plutonium. One of each was made. When the Japanese did not immediately surrender, not that they could have possibly done so, given the realities of both the Japanese govt. but also the difficulty of communication , the 2nd bomb was dropped. While it was a near miss..the force of the explosion...much bigger yield than the 1st, cemented Plutonium as the way to go.

Well, good thing Germany surrendered before the bomb was created....they could have used it on, just kidding...we know that would have never happened.....

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

Well, good thing Germany surrendered before the bomb was created....they could have used it on, just kidding...we know that would have never happened.....

Ironically...and a bit scary--was the fact that Germany had the lead on us in the development of nuclear weapons...but..Dr. Heisenberg made a critical error--he thought that a few tons of U-232 was required for fission, instead of a few Kilograms..and the NAZI persecution of the Jews led to some of their best physicists and mathematicians fleeing to the allies..where they used their expertise against Germany.

 

[martybegan]

What part of they were not needed to stop the war did you not get the first time I told you?

They were needed to stop the war at the time the war stopped. We would have had to invade to finish of the war under our terms.

Take your revisionist history and cram it up your ass.

 

[martybegan]

Well, good thing Germany surrendered before the bomb was created....they could have used it on, just kidding...we know that would have never happened.....

Berlin would have gone up in a ball of fire.

 

[Biff_Poindexter]

They were needed to stop the war at the time the war stopped. We would have had to invade to finish of the war under our terms.

Take your revisionist history and cram it up your ass.

No, they were not needed to stop a war......
They have never been needed to stop a war -- thus why it hasn't been used ever since....
Also funny how the only country to ever use it are the main ones trying to stop others from having it.....Even tho others have a legitimate reason to have it, seeing as, they aren't the ones who have used it on anyone....ever

 

[Biff_Poindexter]

Berlin would have gone up in a ball of fire.

No they wouldn't have....


too many white folks in Germany and too many Neo-Nazis in America who sympathized with Nazis in Germany...so nope...

 

[martybegan]

No, they were not needed to stop a war......
They have never been needed to stop a war -- thus why it hasn't been used ever since....
Also funny how the only country to ever use it are the main ones trying to stop others from having it.....Even tho others have a legitimate reason to have it, seeing as, they aren't the ones who have used it on anyone....ever

Yes they were.

They haven't been used since due to MAD, which requires many weapons to be effective.

A country with 2-3 nukes facing off against another with 2-3 nukes is MORE likely to use them rather than less likely, because at that force level they think they could get away with a first strike.

 

[martybegan]

No they wouldn't have....


too many white folks in Germany and too many Neo-Nazis in America who sympathized with Nazis in Germany...so nope...

We were firebombing the ever loving shit out of multiple German cities, nukes at the time were just bigger bombs able to do it with less bombs.

 

[BackAgain]

I dunno. Could be awkward.

The rule appears to be that they can only be used against Japan.

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

No, they were not needed to stop a war......
They have never been needed to stop a war -- thus why it hasn't been used ever since....
Also funny how the only country to ever use it are the main ones trying to stop others from having it.....Even tho others have a legitimate reason to have it, seeing as, they aren't the ones who have used it on anyone....ever

Well..factually, you are correct. The bomb was not needed. We could have invaded, taken the horrendous casualties that that would have entailed and brought Japan to her knees.
However we chose to spend Japanese lives to spare American ones. The calculus of war is brutal.
In the context of the times, the decision to bomb Hiroshima was the correct one, IMO. Nagasaki, not so much. Had we just waited a few days..or weeks--the reality would have probably set in, and the Japanese would have surrendered. Now, that's conjecture--and no one will ever know.

There is this, we only had two bombs and were months away from producing another. Had we failed to break the Japanese will..it could have been far worse.

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

We were firebombing the ever loving shit out of multiple German cities, nukes at the time were just bigger bombs able to do it with less bombs.

In fact, while a lot of people think Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the worst..we killed far more in the Tokyo firebombing. Does the means really matter?

 

[martybegan]

Well..factually, you are correct. The bomb was not needed. We could have invaded, taken the horrendous casualties that that would have entailed and brought Japan to her knees.
However we chose to spend Japanese lives to spare American ones. The calculus of war is brutal.
In the context of the times, the decision to bomb Hiroshima was the correct one, IMO. Nagasaki, not so much. Had we just waited a few days..or weeks--the reality would have probably set in, and the Japanese would have surrendered. Now, that's conjecture--and no one will ever know.

There is this, we only had two bombs and were months away from producing another. Had we failed to break the Japanese will..it could have been far worse.

How many Japanese do you think would have died if we invaded?

The soldiers weren't exactly the surrendering type on non-Home Islands, imagine their tenacity when defending their own homeland.

 

[martybegan]

In fact, while a lot of people think Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the worst..we killed far more in the Tokyo firebombing. Does the means really matter?

I was thinking more along the lines of Dresden, as an counter point to Biff's accusations of racism.

The thing is the Japanese were just as racist as we were back then.

 

[Biff_Poindexter]

Well..factually, you are correct. The bomb was not needed. We could have invaded, taken the horrendous casualties that that would have entailed and brought Japan to her knees.
However we chose to spend Japanese lives to spare American ones. The calculus of war is brutal.
In the context of the times, the decision to bomb Hiroshima was the correct one, IMO. Nagasaki, not so much. Had we just waited a few days..or weeks--the reality would have probably set in, and the Japanese would have surrendered. Now, that's conjecture--and no one will ever know.

There is this, we only had two bombs and were months away from producing another. Had we failed to break the Japanese will..it could have been far worse.

So you would have been perfectly ok with nuking Vietnam, because after all..why not?


Anything to spare American lives.....Since invading that country was just something we couldn't resist....matter of fact, we can just use that as a justification to nuke all of the other countries we invaded.


It's just odd that all of these countries that would get nuked will usually be places like a Vietnam, Iraq, you know, those others...

And you wonder why other countries seek to have nuclear weapons.....

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

I was thinking more along the lines of Dresden, as an counter point to Biff's accusations of racism.

The thing is the Japanese were just as racist as we were back then.

As I recall, Dresden was payback for Coventry.
For the record..it was Hitler who started bombing cities wholesale.
That set the tone.

 

[Biff_Poindexter]

We were firebombing the ever loving shit out of multiple German cities, nukes at the time were just bigger bombs able to do it with less bombs.

We wouldn't have nuked Germany; even if those nukes were available.

 

[martybegan]

As I recall, Dresden was payback for Coventry.
For the record..it was Hitler who started bombing cities wholesale.
That set the tone.

Both sides decided strategic bombing was acceptable before the war even started, Hitler just made the first move at Rotterdam, and a clumsy one at that.

Considering they never really put together a strategic bombing force compared to say RAF Bomber Command or 8th Air Force like the US, it's probably something they regretted.

 

[Biff_Poindexter]

I was thinking more along the lines of Dresden, as an counter point to Biff's accusations of racism.

The thing is the Japanese were just as racist as we were back then.

Yes, the Japanese empire were fascist....which is why they aligned themselves with Nazis....

Fascists have a habit of doing that.....like today's fascists...


Still doesn't change the fact that the Nazi sympathizers in the US at that time identified with Germans more than the Japanese...


But keep pretending racism wasn't a thing back then...

 

[martybegan]

We wouldn't have nuked Germany; even if those nukes were available.

We would have to end the war with the Soviets are far east as possible.