Should Americans who go fight for ISIS/ISIL lose their Citizenship?

[RandallFlagg]

Ted Cruz thinks so and I agree with him.

“Americans who choose to go to Syria or Iraq to fight with vicious ISIS terrorists are party to a terrorist organization committing horrific acts of violence, including beheading innocent American journalists who they have captured,” Cruz said in a statement.

“There can be no clearer renunciation of their citizenship in the United States, and we need to do everything we can to preempt any attempt on their part to re-enter our country and carry out further attacks on American civilians.”

They should not only lose their citizenship, they should be branded as traitors and, if encountered, shot in the head. Americans who fought for Nazi Germany were killed on the spot - as they should have been.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

It's Constitutionally impossible to strip a natural born citizen of his citizenship. Naturalized citizens are fair game.

This opens an interesting gambit though. In order to discourage American citizens from renouncing their citizenship the Obama Administration has increased the fees to $2,500, a massive increase. If this measure passes, all people need to do is send a $1 donation to ISIS then send a copy of the donation to the State Department and wait for them to strip you of your citizenship.

Clarification

Though you can find assertions on a number of sites on the Internet to the contrary, a natural born citizen may lose his citizenship due to acts of expatriation, as these are regarded to be willful acts of renunciation. In other words, the people via Congress may insist that a person has in fact renounced his citizenship, whether that person formally declares his intent to do so via official channels or not. The person's act of expatriation is the formal declaration of his intent.

However, under most circumstances the State Department would not issue the certificate of termination prior to formally interviewing the person in order to determine his conscious intent.

But we are talking about an especially grievous act of expatriation in this instance. In my opinion, as one steeped in immigration and nationality law, including the pertinent constitutional, statutory and case law, the government would have sufficient grounds to issue a certificate terminating the citizenship of those shown to be fighting abroad for ISIS/ISIL, though the government's likeliest course of action would be to apprehend/kill these miscreants aboard or apprehend them here should they try to reenter the United States, charge them for treason and then, perhaps, upon conviction, issue a certificate of termination.

Scroll halfway down: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/109065.pdf


Also, the following site has it right: Can a natural born us citizen have his citizenship revoked against his will

The law prohibits the taking of your citizenship against your will, but there are certain actions a citizen can take which are classed to be a free-will decision that constitutes renunciation of their citizenship. Which means if you commit these such acts you are willfully agreeing to the loss of your citizenship.

The ways to lose your natural born US citizenship are detailed in 8 USC 1481:

1.Becoming naturalized in another country.

2.Swearing an oath of allegiance to another country.

3.Serving in the armed forces of a nation at war with the U.S., or if you are an officer in that force.

4.Working for the government of another nation if doing so requires that you become naturalized or that you swear an oath of allegiance to that country.

5.Being convicted of committing treason.


​

Also, the case law regarding expatriation/renunciation of U.S. citizenship: http://michaeldavidrawlings1.blogspot.com/2009/12/iwong-kim-arki-meet-irogersi.html

Under: http://michaeldavidrawlings1.blogspot.com/2011/03/righting-confusion-of-citizenship-and.html

 

[Jarhead]

Am I supposed to pat Ted Cruz on the back for saying something logical? Granted it is rare, but this isn't worth quoting.

its a debate board, child.
The quote was posted so it can be debated.

You prefer to use this board to rant like a child....go for it.

But don't criticize the rest of us for posting quotes and opening them up for debate.

Is there even a debate over this?

Yes. There is. Some believe that citizenship can not be taken from a naturally born US citizen. I am one of them. See? You were so wrapped up in finding a back handed way to criticize Cruz, you completely lost sight of the debate at hand.
Billy...you are one poster on here that refuses to learn. You simply look at a thread, make some comment about how the GOP are evil and stupid, conservatives are racist and hate America and how all progressive ideas are common sense ideas and above debate.
Learn, Billy. Open your mind.
Learn!

 

[Billy000]

Am I supposed to pat Ted Cruz on the back for saying something logical? Granted it is rare, but this isn't worth quoting.

its a debate board, child.
The quote was posted so it can be debated.

You prefer to use this board to rant like a child....go for it.

But don't criticize the rest of us for posting quotes and opening them up for debate.

Is there even a debate over this?

Yes. There is. Some believe that citizenship can not be taken from a naturally born US citizen. I am one of them. See? You were so wrapped up in finding a back handed way to criticize Cruz, you completely lost sight of the debate at hand.
Billy...you are one poster on here that refuses to learn. You simply look at a thread, make some comment about how the GOP are evil and stupid, conservatives are racist and hate America and how all progressive ideas are common sense ideas and above debate.
Learn, Billy. Open your mind.
Learn!

No you see you were talking about the ability to take it away and Ted the teabagger was saying it SHOULD be taken away. You are a Rightwinger so I don't expect you to be able to keep up.

 

[BlindBoo]

What does the constitution say about taking ones citizenship away?

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Am I supposed to pat Ted Cruz on the back for saying something logical? Granted it is rare, but this isn't worth quoting.

its a debate board, child.
The quote was posted so it can be debated.

You prefer to use this board to rant like a child....go for it.

But don't criticize the rest of us for posting quotes and opening them up for debate.

Is there even a debate over this?

Yes. There is. Some believe that citizenship can not be taken from a naturally born US citizen. I am one of them. See? You were so wrapped up in finding a back handed way to criticize Cruz, you completely lost sight of the debate at hand.
Billy...you are one poster on here that refuses to learn. You simply look at a thread, make some comment about how the GOP are evil and stupid, conservatives are racist and hate America and how all progressive ideas are common sense ideas and above debate.
Learn, Billy. Open your mind.
Learn!

The operative words here are willfully renounced via an act of expatriation. Yes, a natural born citizen can lose his citizenship in this manner, potentially, without formally declaring his intent. See post #62.

 

[Dana7360]

Aside from a case in which the person involved openly and willingly declares their support for ISIS, I think this would be setting an incredibly dangerous precedent.

How so? If they go to fight with ISIS- they are enemies of the USA, Seems pretty black and white to me....

What do you mean by "go to fight with ISIS"?

How do you prove it?

We live in a surveillance state, world actually. All you need do is pass legislation barring presence in that warzone. People will leave electronic details as they travel. Monitor Americans overseas as they approach Syria. Have local spies circulating through the crowds and capture images of people. Run them through the NSA super-brains and out pops photo evidence of an American in Syrian territory.

That type of law is simply a variation of the laws we have which bar Americans from going overseas to have sex with children. Don't step foot in Syria, and if you do then you've committed a crime.

Still, we're prevented from stripping natural born citizens of citizenship.

So, visiting Syria = supporting ISIS?

Law makes it so. Carry $11,000 cash over a border and see what happens to you, even if you have no intent to use the money for illegal purposes. The law deems your innocent act to be a crime if you don't report the cash.

Who said anything about carrying cash? And 11 thousand dollars in cash?

I don't think there are many people who walk into other nations with that kind of cash.

Meanwhile what about the press? Journalists go to where the news is and some of it is in Syria.

You're telling me that a journalist who is only exercising their first amendment right and doing their job should lose their citizenship?

 

[g5000]

Ted Cruz thinks so and I agree with him.

“Americans who choose to go to Syria or Iraq to fight with vicious ISIS terrorists are party to a terrorist organization committing horrific acts of violence, including beheading innocent American journalists who they have captured,” Cruz said in a statement.

“There can be no clearer renunciation of their citizenship in the United States, and we need to do everything we can to preempt any attempt on their part to re-enter our country and carry out further attacks on American civilians.”

The legal precedents trounce Rafael Cruz.

Americans who spied for the USSR did not lose their citizenship.

Americans who committed acts of sabotage for Nazi Germany did not lose their citizenship.

A criminal traitor does not lose their citizenship.

Sound to me like demagogue Rafael has a waterboard and wants to use it.

 

[g5000]

Ted Cruz thinks so and I agree with him.

“Americans who choose to go to Syria or Iraq to fight with vicious ISIS terrorists are party to a terrorist organization committing horrific acts of violence, including beheading innocent American journalists who they have captured,” Cruz said in a statement.

“There can be no clearer renunciation of their citizenship in the United States, and we need to do everything we can to preempt any attempt on their part to re-enter our country and carry out further attacks on American civilians.”

They should not only lose their citizenship, they should be branded as traitors and, if encountered, shot in the head. Americans who fought for Nazi Germany were killed on the spot - as they should have been.

If there were Americans who fought for Germany on the battlefield, they were killed on the battlefield. Americans who spied for Germany were not killed on the spot, nor was their citizenship revoked.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Aside from a case in which the person involved openly and willingly declares their support for ISIS, I think this would be setting an incredibly dangerous precedent.

Even openly declaring one's support for ISIS would not be sufficient grounds for the government to issue a certificate terminating citizenship. That would not merely be setting a dangerous precedent; it would be unlawful and unconstitutional. However, a U.S. citizen shown to have joined the ISIS' army abroad would definitely put his U.S. citizenship in jeopardy, whether he be a natural-born citizen or a naturalized citizen. See post #62.

 

[g5000]

The ways to lose your natural born US citizenship are detailed in 8 USC 1481:

1.Becoming naturalized in another country.

2.Swearing an oath of allegiance to another country.

3.Serving in the armed forces of a nation at war with the U.S., or if you are an officer in that force.

4.Working for the government of another nation if doing so requires that you become naturalized or that you swear an oath of allegiance to that country.

5.Being convicted of committing treason.​

So here is a funny thing regarding number 3. In order to justify waterboarding "detainees" was legal, the Bush Administration, and the millions of piss drinking minions who adored Bush, did leaps and twists to assert the detainees were not POWs, claiming they were not members of an armed force of a recognized State.

Therefore, by their own reasoning, anyone serving with ISIS is not serving in the armed forces of a nation at war with the U.S. Nor does swearing an allegiance to ISIS qualify as swearing an allegiance to another country.
​

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Ted Cruz thinks so and I agree with him.

“Americans who choose to go to Syria or Iraq to fight with vicious ISIS terrorists are party to a terrorist organization committing horrific acts of violence, including beheading innocent American journalists who they have captured,” Cruz said in a statement.

“There can be no clearer renunciation of their citizenship in the United States, and we need to do everything we can to preempt any attempt on their part to re-enter our country and carry out further attacks on American civilians.”

The legal precedents trounce Rafael Cruz.

Americans who spied for the USSR did not lose their citizenship.

Americans who committed acts of sabotage for Nazi Germany did not lose their citizenship.

A criminal traitor does not lose their citizenship.

Sound to me like demagogue Rafael has a waterboard and wants to use it.

False. One can lose one's citizenship for expatriating acts of treason under 8 USC 1481. Naturalized citizens convicted for acts of treason will most assuredly lose their citizenship and be deported after serving time, and natural-born citizens can lose their citizenship for acts of treason too, technically, especially if such acts are committed abroad. The reason the government doesn't recognize most acts of expatriation on the part of natural-born citizens, especially, as formal acts of renunciation in the absence of a formal declaration of intent should be obvious, but instances of treason, including serving in the military forces of a foreign nation, especially at a time when the U.S. is at war with that nation, a natural-born citizen is subject to being expatriated by his own volition. His act of expatriation constitutes a formal declaration of intent by law. However, the reason the government does not issue certificates of termination in such instances is because as long as the fugitive is regarded to be a U.S. citizen, he is subject to being apprehended or extradited, if not killed, as such so that we the people can get our pound of flesh.

The "gray area" here merely goes to the respective legal and practical concerns of justice.

 

[g5000]

Ted Cruz thinks so and I agree with him.

“Americans who choose to go to Syria or Iraq to fight with vicious ISIS terrorists are party to a terrorist organization committing horrific acts of violence, including beheading innocent American journalists who they have captured,” Cruz said in a statement.

“There can be no clearer renunciation of their citizenship in the United States, and we need to do everything we can to preempt any attempt on their part to re-enter our country and carry out further attacks on American civilians.”

The legal precedents trounce Rafael Cruz.

Americans who spied for the USSR did not lose their citizenship.

Americans who committed acts of sabotage for Nazi Germany did not lose their citizenship.

A criminal traitor does not lose their citizenship.

Sound to me like demagogue Rafael has a waterboard and wants to use it.

False.

Show me a natural born American spy who had their citizenship revoked.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Aside from a case in which the person involved openly and willingly declares their support for ISIS, I think this would be setting an incredibly dangerous precedent.

How so? If they go to fight with ISIS- they are enemies of the USA, Seems pretty black and white to me....

What do you mean by "go to fight with ISIS"?

How do you prove it?

We live in a surveillance state, world actually. All you need do is pass legislation barring presence in that warzone. People will leave electronic details as they travel. Monitor Americans overseas as they approach Syria. Have local spies circulating through the crowds and capture images of people. Run them through the NSA super-brains and out pops photo evidence of an American in Syrian territory.

That type of law is simply a variation of the laws we have which bar Americans from going overseas to have sex with children. Don't step foot in Syria, and if you do then you've committed a crime.

Still, we're prevented from stripping natural born citizens of citizenship.

So, visiting Syria = supporting ISIS?

Law makes it so. Carry $11,000 cash over a border and see what happens to you, even if you have no intent to use the money for illegal purposes. The law deems your innocent act to be a crime if you don't report the cash.

Well, no such law exists forbidding travel to Syria. Are you suggesting that there should be one?

At this point I'm not suggesting anything. I haven't thought this through. Right now I'm just engaging with you on the "how-to" aspect.

Well, travel to Syria still doesn't prove "fighting for ISIS", which is the both the premise of the thread, and the premise of the post of mine you responded to.

Traveling across a border with more than $10,000 doesn't prove that you're money laundering either and yet you're in serious trouble if you break this "administrative" law.

All Congress needs to do is declare it illegal for an American citizen to be in Syria and then they have the legal basis to punish people who are there.

That's true, but doesn't have anything to do with the premise of this thread.

To the premise of this thread:

Although rare, it is possible for a naturalized U.S. citizen to have his or her citizenship stripped through a process called "denaturalization." Former citizens who are denaturalized are subject to removal (deportation) from the United States. Natural-born U.S. citizens may not have their citizenship revoked against their will, but may choose to renounce their citizenship on their own.​

Yes. And willful acts of expatriation may be deemed to be formal declarations of renunciation under 8 USC 1481.

 

[bendog]

I assume that we would want to arrest, prosecute and punish any American who harmed this country, and I don't see how removing their legal status as Americans is helpful to that end.

 

[g5000]

To the premise of this thread:

Although rare, it is possible for a naturalized U.S. citizen to have his or her citizenship stripped through a process called "denaturalization." Former citizens who are denaturalized are subject to removal (deportation) from the United States. Natural-born U.S. citizens may not have their citizenship revoked against their will, but may choose to renounce their citizenship on their own.​

Yes. And willful acts of expatriation may be deemed to be formal declarations of renunciation under 8 USC 1481.

There is no evidence any of the American citizens fighting for ISIS has met any of the requirements for willful renunciation or involuntary revocation.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Ted Cruz thinks so and I agree with him.

“Americans who choose to go to Syria or Iraq to fight with vicious ISIS terrorists are party to a terrorist organization committing horrific acts of violence, including beheading innocent American journalists who they have captured,” Cruz said in a statement.

“There can be no clearer renunciation of their citizenship in the United States, and we need to do everything we can to preempt any attempt on their part to re-enter our country and carry out further attacks on American civilians.”

You've changed your tune from when you complained about Obama killing American al Qaeda with drones.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

To the premise of this thread:

Although rare, it is possible for a naturalized U.S. citizen to have his or her citizenship stripped through a process called "denaturalization." Former citizens who are denaturalized are subject to removal (deportation) from the United States. Natural-born U.S. citizens may not have their citizenship revoked against their will, but may choose to renounce their citizenship on their own.​

Yes. And willful acts of expatriation may be deemed to be formal declarations of renunciation under 8 USC 1481.

There is no evidence any of the American citizens fighting for ISIS has met any of the requirements for willful renunciation or involuntary revocation.

It's a gray area to be sure because ISIS is not an officially recognized state or military force. But I still think the executive branch could make a case for expatriation under 8 USC 1481. But it's not likely to do that. The government would just as soon kill or capture them.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Ted Cruz thinks so and I agree with him.

“Americans who choose to go to Syria or Iraq to fight with vicious ISIS terrorists are party to a terrorist organization committing horrific acts of violence, including beheading innocent American journalists who they have captured,” Cruz said in a statement.

“There can be no clearer renunciation of their citizenship in the United States, and we need to do everything we can to preempt any attempt on their part to re-enter our country and carry out further attacks on American civilians.”

The legal precedents trounce Rafael Cruz.

Americans who spied for the USSR did not lose their citizenship.

Americans who committed acts of sabotage for Nazi Germany did not lose their citizenship.

A criminal traitor does not lose their citizenship.

Sound to me like demagogue Rafael has a waterboard and wants to use it.

False.

Show me a natural born American spy who had their citizenship revoked.

I just explained to you why the government is not going to do that. Technically, it can, if that natural-born citizen is also a citizen of another country or is offered citizenship by another country, presumably the one the citizen served in his act of treason. But he's got to get out of jail first. Our government simply isn't going to do that for practical reasons. I merely pointed out to you that under the law, the government can do that.

 

[g5000]

Ted Cruz thinks so and I agree with him.

“Americans who choose to go to Syria or Iraq to fight with vicious ISIS terrorists are party to a terrorist organization committing horrific acts of violence, including beheading innocent American journalists who they have captured,” Cruz said in a statement.

“There can be no clearer renunciation of their citizenship in the United States, and we need to do everything we can to preempt any attempt on their part to re-enter our country and carry out further attacks on American civilians.”

The legal precedents trounce Rafael Cruz.

Americans who spied for the USSR did not lose their citizenship.

Americans who committed acts of sabotage for Nazi Germany did not lose their citizenship.

A criminal traitor does not lose their citizenship.

Sound to me like demagogue Rafael has a waterboard and wants to use it.

False.

Show me a natural born American spy who had their citizenship revoked.

I just explained to you why the government is not going to do that. Technically, it can, if that natural-born citizen is also a citizen of another country or is offered citizenship by another country, presumably the one the citizen served in his act of treason. But he's got to get out of jail first. Our government simply isn't going to do that for practical reasons. I merely pointed out to you that under the law, the government can do that.

And I have pointed out that ISIS/ISIL is not a country.