Should a 16+ week fetus be anesthetized before abortion?

[Kosh]

Should a 16+ week fetus be anesthetized before abortion?

Yes! However since the mother and baby share many things through the umbilical cord, how does this affect the mother?

 

[Amelia]

Should a 16+ week fetus be anesthetized before abortion?

Yes! However since the mother and baby share many things through the umbilical cord, how does this affect the mother?

I gather from my recent reading that the anesthesia could harm the mother.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Would you support a law requiring a fetus to be anesthetized prior to abortion if it were possibly developed far enough to feel pain?

Absolutely. But I'd go a step farther and advocate for the law to require everyone who intends to murder those who they deem inconvenient, anesthetize their victims. Particularly where the murderer is solely responsible for the individual, as a direct result of their own willful behavior.

 

[deltex1]

I gather from my recent reading that the abortion could harm the baby.

 

[Vox]

....

But to the OP question. [MENTION=28109]Amelia[/MENTION] - is there any scientific/medical evidence that a 16 week old fetus feels pain?

....

I thought there was. I now think I was mistaken.

Though part of the pathway necessary to feel pain may exist at 16 weeks, it appears that the pathway may not be complete until much later, perhaps week 26. So though there may be some physical reaction to stimuli, pain might not be registered.

Also, some say that fetuses are naturally anesthetized and sedated until birth.

yes, they can feel by 8 weeks. the fetus feels pain during the procedure as limbs may be pulled off and scissors are used to puncture the base of its skull.
To feel pain: What is needed is (1) a sensory nerve to feel the pain and send a message to (2) the thalamus, a part of the base of the brain, and (3) motor nerves that send a message to that area. These are present at 8 weeks.


However, it is very difficult to PROVE scientifically by an experiment, and scientifically it has been proven at 17 weeks:

.Giuntini, 2007, “It has also been shown that fetuses feel pain from week 18. This has given rise to the practice of using fetal anesthesia for surgery or invasive diagnostic procedures in utero.”

L. Giuntini & G. Amato, Analgesic Procedures in Newborns., in NEONATAL PAIN 73 (Giuseppe Buonocore & Carlo V. Bellieni ed., 2007).

. Van de Velde, 2005, p.256, col.2, para.2, “Therefore, it has been suggested that pain relief has to be provided during in utero interventions on the fetus from mid-gestation (20 weeks) on.32-34”

Van de Velde M, Van Schoubroeck DV, Lewi LE, Marcus MAE, Jani JC, Missant C, Teunkens A, Deprest J. Remifentanil for Fetal Immobilization and Maternal Sedation During Fetoscopic Surgery: A Randomized, Double-Blind Comparison with Diazepam. Anesthesia & Analgesia. 101 (2005) 251-258.

32Giannakoulopoulos X, Sepulveda W, Kourtis P, Glover V, Fisk NM. Fetal plasma cortisol and β-endorphin response to intrauterine needling Lancet. 344 (1994) 77-81.

33Giannakoulopoulos X, Teixeira J, Fisk N. Human fetal and maternal noradrenaline responses to invasive procedures. Pediatric Research. 45 (1999) 494-499.

34Anand KJS, Maze M. Fetuses, fentanyl, and the stress response. Anesthesiology. 95 (2001) 823-825.

 

[Statistikhengst]

....

But to the OP question. [MENTION=28109]Amelia[/MENTION] - is there any scientific/medical evidence that a 16 week old fetus feels pain?

....

I thought there was. I now think I was mistaken.

Though part of the pathway necessary to feel pain may exist at 16 weeks, it appears that the pathway may not be complete until much later, perhaps week 26. So though there may be some physical reaction to stimuli, pain might not be registered.

Also, some say that fetuses are naturally anesthetized and sedated until birth.

yes, they can feel by 8 weeks. the fetus feels pain during the procedure as limbs may be pulled off and scissors are used to puncture the base of its skull.
To feel pain: What is needed is (1) a sensory nerve to feel the pain and send a message to (2) the thalamus, a part of the base of the brain, and (3) motor nerves that send a message to that area. These are present at 8 weeks.


However, it is very difficult to PROVE scientifically by an experiment, and scientifically it has been proven at 17 weeks:

.Giuntini, 2007, “It has also been shown that fetuses feel pain from week 18. This has given rise to the practice of using fetal anesthesia for surgery or invasive diagnostic procedures in utero.”

L. Giuntini & G. Amato, Analgesic Procedures in Newborns., in NEONATAL PAIN 73 (Giuseppe Buonocore & Carlo V. Bellieni ed., 2007).

. Van de Velde, 2005, p.256, col.2, para.2, “Therefore, it has been suggested that pain relief has to be provided during in utero interventions on the fetus from mid-gestation (20 weeks) on.32-34”

Van de Velde M, Van Schoubroeck DV, Lewi LE, Marcus MAE, Jani JC, Missant C, Teunkens A, Deprest J. Remifentanil for Fetal Immobilization and Maternal Sedation During Fetoscopic Surgery: A Randomized, Double-Blind Comparison with Diazepam. Anesthesia & Analgesia. 101 (2005) 251-258.

32Giannakoulopoulos X, Sepulveda W, Kourtis P, Glover V, Fisk NM. Fetal plasma cortisol and β-endorphin response to intrauterine needling Lancet. 344 (1994) 77-81.

33Giannakoulopoulos X, Teixeira J, Fisk N. Human fetal and maternal noradrenaline responses to invasive procedures. Pediatric Research. 45 (1999) 494-499.

34Anand KJS, Maze M. Fetuses, fentanyl, and the stress response. Anesthesiology. 95 (2001) 823-825.

thanks for the information.

 

[Vox]

Should a 16+ week fetus be anesthetized before abortion?

Yes! However since the mother and baby share many things through the umbilical cord, how does this affect the mother?

I gather from my recent reading that the anesthesia could harm the mother.

no, it can not

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

And just because a fetus might react to touch, doesn't mean it reacts to pain. Its a reflex - we all have them, and we don't feel pain, do we?

The same system that conveys touch, thus causing the 'reaction', send the message that conveys the arms and legs are being torn out of their sockets.

It follows that this message would be "pain" and lots of it.

But I am sensitive to your point.

Given the evidence, one could easily deduce that the women who choose to turn their backs upon the life they conceived through their own willful behavior are incapable of feelings, but evidence suggest that such is not the case.

I personally have seen examples of these women becoming enraged when presented with evidence, produced by their own behavior, which suggests that they're sociopaths. Having debased themselves through their allowing men to penetrate them, deliver their seed, without obligation or concern for them or the human life they conceive as a result of said coitus.

And given 'rage' is an emotion said to represent 'feeling', I can see some merit to that argument.

 

[Vox]

thanks for the information.

you are welcome.

if you have patience you can read here. Fetal surgery is booming and it is provided at earlier and earlier gestational age

Anaesthesia for Fetal Surgeries

and this is the Bible "
http://www.expertconsultbook.com/ex...0-323-05541-3..00007-7&isbn=978-0-323-05541-3

 

[Plasmaball]

would you support a law requiring a fetus to be anesthetized prior to abortion if it were possibly developed far enough to feel pain?

xxxxxxx

 

[Vox]

Would you support a law requiring a fetus to be anesthetized prior to abortion if it were possibly developed far enough to feel pain?

No abortion should be outlawed at that stage

I just wanna go on record as a "Lib" (ha!) that I am pro-life and that I believe that abortion should not exist at all. And certainly not at 16 weeks, that is just batshit crazy.

But to the OP question. [MENTION=28109]Amelia[/MENTION] - is there any scientific/medical evidence that a 16 week old fetus feels pain?

I have wrestled with this issue for years and thought to myself, well, hell, I'm not a woman, what does it matter to me? And then my daughter came into this world, our world, and that changed a lot of things for me.

I can understand abortion under the most extreme of circumstance, i.e., when the life of the mother is in immediate danger, which more often than not means that her body is trying to eject the foetus, anyway - nature's way of aborting, something we cannot control.

I am very torn on abortion in the case of rape. It's just a tough one. I dunno.

But I know that wholesale abortions is inherently wrong and is against the will of G-d. That much, I am quite sure of.

I would never impugne any woman who has had an abortion.

But my feelings on this issue have grown and evolved over the last seven years. And I wouldn't be true to myself were I to say something otherwise. This is how I feel about this whole issue, a very nasty, thorny one.

Just remember this posting the next time you think that Democrats/Liberals are all alike. We are not. And neither are all Cons.

-Stat

Thank you for your change of heart.
If that would be possible I would swap the ban on abortion with the demand to cut the welfare ( but not the demand to control it) - from one camp and the other one.

 

[deltex1]

When I pull my limb it feels good.

 

[Vox]

Abortion is a reality. We have had abortion for as long as we've had the ability to figure out that pregnancy results in a baby. We will always have abortion and that's as it should be.

We are human beings. We have the ability to stop suffering and that is what we should always strive to do.

Abortion, at any stage, should be easy, humane, merciful for both the fetus and the woman.

So put a syringe in the babies shoulder before the scissors to the brain stem? Easy...for sure. Humane? Only to a libtard.

Those types of abortions are illegal in your country. So don't try and pretend that every woman who has an abortion has one at 8 months gestation.

It is not illegal, Noomi.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/06/18/us/politics/abortion-restrictions.html?_r=2&

It is illegal in YOUR country and in 99% of the world, but not here.
There is no restriction in 9 states. And those states also take the cases from Canada - there is no formal ban in Canada, there is informal refusal of the medical community to perform such an atrocity.

After the baby becomes viable - there is no reason the emergent c-section should not be performed.
And knowing your next response - c-section is EXPONENTIALLY more safe than a late=term abortion at ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

 

[Vox]

When I pull my limb it feels good.

is it pulled so hard to be disconnected from your body?

I bet you won't tolerate it even to be dislocated from the socket