She Had A Name...Remembering Mary Jo Kopechne.

[Ame®icano]

Here are the fbi reports. Trail testimony from Kennedy says she was struggling (kicking and hitting him) when they were first in the water and that water was pouring into the car from all directions. The kicking and hitting is pretty consistent with a drowning victim's actions.

Federal Bureau of Investigation - Freedom of Information Privacy Act

The kicking and hitting is pretty consistent with a raped victim's actions too.

Beside, you can't bleed from drowning.

Yeah, sure he was raping her as they were going over the bridge or sinking. What a fucking loon you are.

I haven't said he was raping her. You did.

 

[Ravi]

Oh so Ted was just sitting there and not struggling when he was drowning as well?

Either way you yourself link to the FACT she was not knocked out on impact.

I've no idea if she was or was not...I just brought that up to describe a reason she couldn't get out of the car if she had two hours of air to breathe. Get serious. If she wasn't knocked out she was dead long before two hours passed.

I'm sorry I don't understand how you can say, "I have no idea if she was or not" when you just linked to the testimony she had been struggling after impact.

Either way again you are not an the expert-- the diver who is trained to search for people who are alive and dead, believed she was alive for at least 2 hours--

I meant I had no idea if she was knocked out or not...I don't really know all the ins and outs of the case and I was just speculating as to why she couldn't save herself. There's no way of knowing if even after she initially struggled she hit her head on something trying to escape.

Anyway...I looked around for the diver's testimony and he didn't say she survived, or rather he thought she survived, hours in an air bubble. He said she may have survived for several terrifying minutes.

The Prescott Courier - Google News Archive Search

Where I live sadly many people die trapped in their car in a canal...and the advice given to people is don't bother calling 9/11, instead try to save yourself or your companions.

Your Worst Nightmares and How to Survive Them - Boca Raton Magazine - March 2009 - Boca Raton

 

[Ravi]

The kicking and hitting is pretty consistent with a raped victim's actions too.

Beside, you can't bleed from drowning.

Yeah, sure he was raping her as they were going over the bridge or sinking. What a fucking loon you are.

I haven't said he was raping her. You did.

Go play your stupid games elsewhere.

 

[CaféAuLait]

I've no idea if she was or was not...I just brought that up to describe a reason she couldn't get out of the car if she had two hours of air to breathe. Get serious. If she wasn't knocked out she was dead long before two hours passed.

I'm sorry I don't understand how you can say, "I have no idea if she was or not" when you just linked to the testimony she had been struggling after impact.

Either way again you are not an the expert-- the diver who is trained to search for people who are alive and dead, believed she was alive for at least 2 hours--

I meant I had no idea if she was knocked out or not...I don't really know all the ins and outs of the case and I was just speculating as to why she couldn't save herself. There's no way of knowing if even after she initially struggled she hit her head on something trying to escape.

Anyway...I looked around for the diver's testimony and he didn't say she survived, or rather he thought she survived, hours in an air bubble. He said she may have survived for several terrifying minutes.

The Prescott Courier - Google News Archive Search

Where I live sadly many people die trapped in their car in a canal...and the advice given to people is don't bother calling 9/11, instead try to save yourself or your companions.

Your Worst Nightmares and How to Survive Them - Boca Raton Magazine - March 2009 - Boca Raton

Ravi

I already posted links to his saying "hours", she probably lived for hours down there.

Here is a link to his own words:

Live from Chappaquiddick

Live audio, it is a big file.

He says she was alive for at least an hour, probably more on this audio file.

Instead of reading other people words listen to them yourself.

 

[Againsheila]

Unfortunately there will never be real justice for Mary Jo Kopechne and her family. She wasn't a rich & powerful politician therefore she is considered to be less of a person by the Liberal Press. It really is sad. She was a real person and her family missed her even more than the Liberals miss Mr. Kennedy. She was loved and missed and it's too bad the Liberal Press continues to ignore that. Good bye MaryJo. You are still remembered by some.

If her family really loved her, they would have told the Kennedy's to "go to hell" and not accepted the more than $100,000 not to have an autopsy done.

Granted, the truth can't bring her back, but I would have wanted to know the truth if she were my child, then again, it could be her family was threatened as well as paid off. The Kennedy's are powerful enough to do both.

 

[Ravi]

I'm sorry I don't understand how you can say, "I have no idea if she was or not" when you just linked to the testimony she had been struggling after impact.

Either way again you are not an the expert-- the diver who is trained to search for people who are alive and dead, believed she was alive for at least 2 hours--

I meant I had no idea if she was knocked out or not...I don't really know all the ins and outs of the case and I was just speculating as to why she couldn't save herself. There's no way of knowing if even after she initially struggled she hit her head on something trying to escape.

Anyway...I looked around for the diver's testimony and he didn't say she survived, or rather he thought she survived, hours in an air bubble. He said she may have survived for several terrifying minutes.

The Prescott Courier - Google News Archive Search

Where I live sadly many people die trapped in their car in a canal...and the advice given to people is don't bother calling 9/11, instead try to save yourself or your companions.

Your Worst Nightmares and How to Survive Them - Boca Raton Magazine - March 2009 - Boca Raton

Ravi

I already posted links to his saying "hours", she probably lived for hours down there.

Here is a link to his own words:

Live from Chappaquiddick

Live audio, it is a big file.

He says she was alive for at least an hour, probably more on this audio file.

Instead of reading other people words listen to them yourself.

Funny that what he said on a radio show is not what he testified. Sounds like he was milking his fifteen minutes of fame...he also sounds like a liar and an idiot. Then again, maybe back in the sixties people didn't realize that you didn't exhale oxygen...

 

[Againsheila]

And I really do believe Mary Jo has finally gotten "justice" now that Teddy has joined her.

 

[CaféAuLait]

These PSA's are not exactly something they were putting out in 1960's were they?

Anywho the article goes onto say:

Though no one set of instructions will work in every submerged-car incident, having a plan of action can save your life. “It is something everyone should think about with water as prevalent as it is here in Florida,” Wise says.

Weather Mary Jo was drunk ( as shown by the tests) and could not figure out how to get out or Kennedy was too drunk and scared to get her out-- he should have called for help. It seem to me that he tried to save his own ass in more ways than one.

 

[Againsheila]

These PSA's are not exactly something they were putting out in 1960's were they?

Anywho the article goes onto say:

Though no one set of instructions will work in every submerged-car incident, having a plan of action can save your life. “It is something everyone should think about with water as prevalent as it is here in Florida,” Wise says.

Weather Mary Jo was drunk ( as shown by the tests) and could not figure out how to get out or Kennedy was too drunk and scared to get her out-- he should have called for help. It seem to me that he tried to save his own ass in more ways than one.

Like I said, I have a tool on my keychain that can break the window if I ever get submerged, and there's little likelyhood of that happening, but I believe in being prepared.

 

[CaféAuLait]

I meant I had no idea if she was knocked out or not...I don't really know all the ins and outs of the case and I was just speculating as to why she couldn't save herself. There's no way of knowing if even after she initially struggled she hit her head on something trying to escape.

Anyway...I looked around for the diver's testimony and he didn't say she survived, or rather he thought she survived, hours in an air bubble. He said she may have survived for several terrifying minutes.

The Prescott Courier - Google News Archive Search

Where I live sadly many people die trapped in their car in a canal...and the advice given to people is don't bother calling 9/11, instead try to save yourself or your companions.

Your Worst Nightmares and How to Survive Them - Boca Raton Magazine - March 2009 - Boca Raton

Ravi

I already posted links to his saying "hours", she probably lived for hours down there.

Here is a link to his own words:

Live from Chappaquiddick

Live audio, it is a big file.

He says she was alive for at least an hour, probably more on this audio file.

Instead of reading other people words listen to them yourself.

Funny that what he said on a radio show is not what he testified. Sounds like he was milking his fifteen minutes of fame...he also sounds like a liar and an idiot. Then again, maybe back in the sixties people didn't realize that you didn't exhale oxygen...

Read YOUR link again he says:

"The air pocket was large enough to have sustained life for awhile"

And he gives a time frame that would have her alive for an hour:

If I had been called within 5 minutes and had been there in 25 minutes I believe she could have been saved.

Where are you getting "several terrifying minutes"? Read what he says.

And On top of that he is a Navy Trained Diver Expert according to your article--- he knows what he is talking about.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=CR8LAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Z1ADAAAAIBAJ&pg=7074,2162528

 

[CaféAuLait]

These PSA's are not exactly something they were putting out in 1960's were they?

Anywho the article goes onto say:

Though no one set of instructions will work in every submerged-car incident, having a plan of action can save your life. “It is something everyone should think about with water as prevalent as it is here in Florida,” Wise says.

Weather Mary Jo was drunk ( as shown by the tests) and could not figure out how to get out or Kennedy was too drunk and scared to get her out-- he should have called for help. It seem to me that he tried to save his own ass in more ways than one.

Like I said, I have a tool on my keychain that can break the window if I ever get submerged, and there's little likelyhood of that happening, but I believe in being prepared.

Sorry Sheila I was addressing Ravi's post not yours.

 

[Ravi]

Ravi

I already posted links to his saying "hours", she probably lived for hours down there.

Here is a link to his own words:

Live from Chappaquiddick

Live audio, it is a big file.

He says she was alive for at least an hour, probably more on this audio file.

Instead of reading other people words listen to them yourself.

Funny that what he said on a radio show is not what he testified. Sounds like he was milking his fifteen minutes of fame...he also sounds like a liar and an idiot. Then again, maybe back in the sixties people didn't realize that you didn't exhale oxygen...

Read YOUR link again he says:

"The air pocket was large enough to have sustained life for awhile"

And he gives a time frame that would have her alive for an hour:

If I had been called within 5 minutes and had been there in 25 minutes I believe she could have been saved.

Where are you getting "several terrifying minutes"? Read what he says.

And On top of that he is a Navy Trained Diver Expert according to your article--- he knows what he is talking about.

The Prescott Courier - Google News Archive Search

5 minutes plus 25 minutes equals 1/2 hour, not an hour, but who's counting?

It says in the article where he lists 5 reasons why he thought she was alive for several terrifying minutes.

I can see that it would be an outside, a very outside chance, that there was enough oxygen in a car that was upside down in the water with a broken window for 30 minutes...well, no, I can't really...and why would he say one thing on the radio and then testify something different in court? Probably because he was under oath.

I'm also curious to know why you believe Kennedy's claim that she was struggling yet you seem to disbelieve his claim that he tried several times to dive down and rescue her.

I'd like to read the actual trial transcript but it doesn't seem to exist on the internet.

IMO, she died while he tried to rescue her and then he consulted his lawyers to save his ass...not a nice thing to do, not something I would do, but not murder and him calling the police wouldn't have saved her. It's also possible he was drunk and wanted to avoid a test that would have made him guilty of manslaughter...but I'm just speculating.

I think the whole incident made him look bad but I'm also satisfied that he atoned for it in the end.

R.I.P Teddy...and you, too Mary Jo.

 

[Yurt]

There is NO proof there ever was an air pocket.

THe whole idea is a speculation

and there is no proof of any of your assertions.....circumstantial evidence points heavily to kennedy being drunk, leaving her and but for him leaving her and not contacting authorities for 10 hours, she most likely would be alive today.....

i guarantee you, that in any DA's office that is unbiased, they would immediately investigate this as a homicide.....he left the scene and didn't notify authorities for over 10 hours.....AND, a huge and.....none of his friends or family that he called notified authorities.......

while it is true none of can truly know.....the evidence weighs heavily in favor of guilt for your hero ted "the drunk" kennedy

The Doctor was in on it!

The DA was in on it!

OMIGOD! OMIGOD! OMIGOD!

no you ignoramous.....the DA actually wanted to pursue it, but was shut down....the "doctor"....what doctor?

funny how you can't address the facts and strong inference those facts suggest, instead all you have are stupid strawman arguments

 

[CaféAuLait]

Funny that what he said on a radio show is not what he testified. Sounds like he was milking his fifteen minutes of fame...he also sounds like a liar and an idiot. Then again, maybe back in the sixties people didn't realize that you didn't exhale oxygen...

Read YOUR link again he says:

"The air pocket was large enough to have sustained life for awhile"

And he gives a time frame that would have her alive for an hour:

If I had been called within 5 minutes and had been there in 25 minutes I believe she could have been saved.

Where are you getting "several terrifying minutes"? Read what he says.

And On top of that he is a Navy Trained Diver Expert according to your article--- he knows what he is talking about.

The Prescott Courier - Google News Archive Search

5 minutes plus 25 minutes equals 1/2 hour, not an hour, but who's counting?

It says in the article where he lists 5 reasons why he thought she was alive for several terrifying minutes.

I can see that it would be an outside, a very outside chance, that there was enough oxygen in a car that was upside down in the water with a broken window for 30 minutes...well, no, I can't really...and why would he say one thing on the radio and then testify something different in court? Probably because he was under oath.

I'm also curious to know why you believe Kennedy's claim that she was struggling yet you seem to disbelieve his claim that he tried several times to dive down and rescue her.

I'd like to read the actual trial transcript but it doesn't seem to exist on the internet.

IMO, she died while he tried to rescue her and then he consulted his lawyers to save his ass...not a nice thing to do, not something I would do, but not murder and him calling the police wouldn't have saved her. It's also possible he was drunk and wanted to avoid a test that would have made him guilty of manslaughter...but I'm just speculating.

I think the whole incident made him look bad but I'm also satisfied that he atoned for it in the end.

R.I.P Teddy...and you, too Mary Jo.

I did not type out all of his testimony—only a little bit of it. Either way he said hours in the article I supplied and ‘hour and awhile’ in the one you supplied.
Again there was an accident when he hit the bridge, he then left the accident and refused to report such to authorities – he passed many houses before returning to the party . She may have been saved if he called. When he made the decision NOT to call -- this was a willful act in his part --- no longer an accident-- which leads to the death of Mary Jo.

That in itself takes a cold person, who IMO, committed a lot more than manslaughter. It is easier for one to speculate that she died on impact or minutes after to minimize what he really did. I do not know what happened but I prefer to go by those who knew that evening and not those who make Kennedy out to be a saint.

If there was even the slightest chance or the tiniest chance, I, and I am sure you would have wanted him call for help if your or my child were in that car. It may have saved a lot of grief.

 

[drsmith1072]

Good grief....the truth is that Ted Kennedy was drunk, he drove his car into a lake, he got out and left Mary Jo to DIE. He walked passed dozens of houses on his way back to the party to get his brothers. Mary Jo lived in an air pocket for an hour after the car went into the lake. Had he gone to the first house and called the cops, she would have survived. Then he swam to the mainland and put in an appearance at the hotel bar as an alibi.

The Kennedy family paid Mary Jo's family over $100,000 not to have an autopsy performed, saying that it would prove they'd had sex and would ruin her reputation. Not a word about Teddy's reputation.....

Somehow, I don't think not getting to be president is payment enough for manslaughter at the least and murder at the most.

You can't live in an air pocket in a car for an hour. In almost no time at all the air pocket would be your exhalations and not breathable air.

If he'd gone to the first house and called the cops chances are she would have died anyway. The only thing that would have saved her is if Kennedy had been sober enough to figure out how to get her out of the car or if there was a witness on shore that knew how to rescue someone from a car. Alternately, she could have broken out the window and saved herself...but most people don't know how to accomplish that.

That cannot be accomplished without the right tools (I have one on my keychain) and yes, a person can live for a long time in a airpocket, depending on it's size, the car wasn't completely sunk and his brothers even waded into the water to try and open the doors to get her out....chances are, had he gone to the first house to get help, she would have been saved, he was too worried about what it would to do his career to even think about it.

Dude you have already been shown to be WRONG and you still try to claim that ted went and got his brothers when his brothers had NOTHING to do with it.

The sad thing is that you make assumptions that you can't prove and then try to claim that you know what he was thinking at that time.

Do you have ANY FACTS or are baseless assumptions all that you have to offer?

 

[Ravi]

You can't live in an air pocket in a car for an hour. In almost no time at all the air pocket would be your exhalations and not breathable air.

If he'd gone to the first house and called the cops chances are she would have died anyway. The only thing that would have saved her is if Kennedy had been sober enough to figure out how to get her out of the car or if there was a witness on shore that knew how to rescue someone from a car. Alternately, she could have broken out the window and saved herself...but most people don't know how to accomplish that.

That cannot be accomplished without the right tools (I have one on my keychain) and yes, a person can live for a long time in a airpocket, depending on it's size, the car wasn't completely sunk and his brothers even waded into the water to try and open the doors to get her out....chances are, had he gone to the first house to get help, she would have been saved, he was too worried about what it would to do his career to even think about it.

Dude you have already been shown to be WRONG and you still try to claim that ted went and got his brothers when his brothers had NOTHING to do with it.

The sad thing is that you make assumptions that you can't prove and then try to claim that you know what he was thinking at that time.

Do you have ANY FACTS or are baseless assumptions all that you have to offer?

It must have been the ghosts of JFK and Bobby.

 

[drsmith1072]

There is NO proof there ever was an air pocket.

THe whole idea is a speculation

and there is no proof of any of your assertions.....circumstantial evidence points heavily to kennedy being drunk, leaving her and but for him leaving her and not contacting authorities for 10 hours, she most likely would be alive today.....

i guarantee you, that in any DA's office that is unbiased, they would immediately investigate this as a homicide.....he left the scene and didn't notify authorities for over 10 hours.....AND, a huge and.....none of his friends or family that he called notified authorities.......

while it is true none of can truly know.....the evidence weighs heavily in favor of guilt for your hero ted "the drunk" kennedy

LOL so you claim he has no proof and then make unsubstantiated claims yourself. LOL Now that is hilarious.

Since you want to bring in a DA, then based on the laws on the books back then how would this have been handled?? Please substantiate your claims by citing the laws and show that it would have been prosecuted as a homicide.

 

[drsmith1072]

I want some..


Ravi:



'Dead' Woman Survives 90-Minutes Under Ice



Tromso's Dr. Mads Gilbert reports, "We think she was breathing for the first 40 minutes in an air pocket in the flowing water. So she was taking in oxygen as her body slowly cooled down. She was also extremely fit. But we had lots of narrow escapes with her: Her lungs failed; her kidneys failed; her intestines failed. We just did not give up."

'Dead' Woman Survives 90-Minutes Under Ice

If the water was flowing it was bringing in air to the ice pocket. Plus, her extremely low temperature ensured she didn't need much oxygen.

You do realize the water was moving "a strong current" for Kopechne too? That was the testimony of Kennedy and his Lawyer friends....

and was the car submerged?? A layer of oxygen beneath a sheet of ice on top of the water can constantly gert replenished by the flowing water. If the car was fully submerged or the point where the alleged air bubble was trapped was under the water level then the oxygen could not be replenished. Got any more spin?

Not to mention once again the diver on scene said he felt she was alive for at least 2 hours.... we were not there so I will go by the experts from back then and those witnesses.

Do you often base your OPINIONS of factual events on the feelings or beliefs of person with no firsthand knowledge of the actual event?? His BELIEF that she was alive for at least two hours is only a belief with NOTHING to substantiate it. So why do you call him an expert?? How many bodies had he recovered at that time that would amke you believe he was an expert??

 

[drsmith1072]

You do realize the water was moving "a strong current" for Kopechne too? That was the testimony of Kennedy and his Lawyer friends.... Not to mention once again the diver on scene said he felt she was alive for at least 2 hours.... we were not there so I will go by the experts from back then and those witnesses.

Water and ice are different...a current wouldn't have helped MJ. Sorry, there is no way the diver was correct. You simply cannot stay alive under water with a air pocket even as big as a Cadillac for two hours.

Of course this doesn't excuse Teddy for not reporting what happened. He was a spoiled rich kid who tried to cover his ass...but I don't think anything would have saved MJ from dying.

And you have NO idea if he had reported it if she would have still be alive, do you?

and neither do you. Despite you next claim where you presume to know what COULD have happened IF. LOL

If he had called se could very well be alive--

More unsubstantiated BS. Did you feel the same way when cheney was out drinking while hunting and shot "a friend" in the face and they waiting until the next day to report it?? Hmm?

you yourself fault him for not calling.

Yes he should have reported it but the FACT is that you cannot say with any degree of certainty that it would have made a difference. The best you have is an assunmption that you make based on the diver's unsubstantiated OPINION.

And his testimony says he was aware of her struggling beside him--- so she did not die on impact. So she was still alive and may have been saved by the diver as he said. Not to mention she was in 6 feet of water and they probably did not need any diver--- just someone who was sober enough to swim in and get her.

I just love how you continue to bring in your "mays" and your "could have beens" but they don't amount to anything in a discussion that is supposed to be based on FACTS.

If they didn't need the diver then why was a diver called in the next day?? You are spinning so much you are beginning to confuse yourself. LOL

 

[drsmith1072]

Read YOUR link again he says:

"The air pocket was large enough to have sustained life for awhile"

And he gives a time frame that would have her alive for an hour:

If I had been called within 5 minutes and had been there in 25 minutes I believe she could have been saved.

Where are you getting "several terrifying minutes"? Read what he says.

And On top of that he is a Navy Trained Diver Expert according to your article--- he knows what he is talking about.

The Prescott Courier - Google News Archive Search

5 minutes plus 25 minutes equals 1/2 hour, not an hour, but who's counting?

It says in the article where he lists 5 reasons why he thought she was alive for several terrifying minutes.

I can see that it would be an outside, a very outside chance, that there was enough oxygen in a car that was upside down in the water with a broken window for 30 minutes...well, no, I can't really...and why would he say one thing on the radio and then testify something different in court? Probably because he was under oath.

I'm also curious to know why you believe Kennedy's claim that she was struggling yet you seem to disbelieve his claim that he tried several times to dive down and rescue her.

I'd like to read the actual trial transcript but it doesn't seem to exist on the internet.

IMO, she died while he tried to rescue her and then he consulted his lawyers to save his ass...not a nice thing to do, not something I would do, but not murder and him calling the police wouldn't have saved her. It's also possible he was drunk and wanted to avoid a test that would have made him guilty of manslaughter...but I'm just speculating.

I think the whole incident made him look bad but I'm also satisfied that he atoned for it in the end.

R.I.P Teddy...and you, too Mary Jo.

I did not type out all of his testimony—only a little bit of it. Either way he said hours in the article I supplied and ‘hour and awhile’ in the one you supplied.
Again there was an accident when he hit the bridge,

and it was an accident aftrer the car hit the water and it remains an accident by today's standards as well.

he then left the accident and refused to report such to authorities

If i remember correctly he was charged and convicted of leaving the scene of an accident.

On July 25, seven days after the incident, Kennedy entered a plea of guilty to a charge of leaving the scene of an accident after causing injury. Kennedy's attorneys suggested that any jail sentence should be suspended, and the prosecutors agreed to this, citing Kennedy's age, character and prior reputation. Judge James Boyle sentenced Kennedy to two months' incarceration, the statutory minimum for the offense, which he suspended. In announcing the sentence, Boyle referred to Kennedy's "unblemished record" and said that he "has already been, and will continue to be punished far beyond anything this court can impose".

– he passed many houses before returning to the party. She may have been saved if he called.

More assumption on your part. Imagine that.

When he made the decision NOT to call -- this was a willful act in his part --- no longer an accident-- which leads to the death of Mary Jo.

LOL nice bs but that is hardly the case. The FACT is that the car went off the road into the water and overturned. He got out but she didn't. She died and partisan hacks like you present all of your may have, might have and could have been based ASSUMPTIONS to accuse kennedy of a crime that you cannot PROVE with anything factual.

That in itself takes a cold person, who IMO, committed a lot more than manslaughter.

Imagine that, you finally admit to presenting your OPINION which is about all you have presented thus far anyway. LOL

It is easier for one to speculate that she died on impact or minutes after to minimize what he really did.

Apparently it's also easy for YOU to speculate that she lived for several hours under water with no air, that being trapped under snow and under ice is exactly like being trapped in car under water all to try and blow the whole thing out of proportion so you can make it what you want it to be and can call a man a murderer.

I do not know what happened but I prefer to go by those who knew that evening and not those who make Kennedy out to be a saint.

FACT is that you believe what you want to believe despite the FACT that you don't have the FACTS to support your beliefs. Your argument is based on assumptions and opinions. LOL

If there was even the slightest chance or the tiniest chance, I, and I am sure you would have wanted him call for help if your or my child were in that car. It may have saved a lot of grief.

there you go with your assumptions again. LOL