Settlements

[admonit]

Nope. Those are all de-stabilizing elements. The opposite of "what has to happen".

Only to a zionist. The rest of the world disagrees. Again, where, outside of an insane asylum is there a group of people more detached from reality than zionists?

You never addressed the issue of having an established govt to provide internal and EXTERNAL border security. Free Palestine becomes an Islamic battleground without PRACTICAL considerations like that. Waste of time talking about drawing map lines and trading settlements if a LEADERSHIP and GOVERNMENT does not exist to negotiate the deals, settle the peace, and start VALUING Palestinian quality of life and freedom..

When people in fact live together on the same land, peace is settled by peoples, not by governments. The question is: are Palestinian Arabs ready for genuine peace with Israel? My answer: absolutely not.
Also today Israelis are less ready to make concessions.

 

[flacaltenn]

Nope. Those are all de-stabilizing elements. The opposite of "what has to happen".

Only to a zionist. The rest of the world disagrees. Again, where, outside of an insane asylum is there a group of people more detached from reality than zionists?

You never addressed the issue of having an established govt to provide internal and EXTERNAL border security. Free Palestine becomes an Islamic battleground without PRACTICAL considerations like that. Waste of time talking about drawing map lines and trading settlements if a LEADERSHIP and GOVERNMENT does not exist to negotiate the deals, settle the peace, and start VALUING Palestinian quality of life and freedom..

When people in fact live together on the same land, peace is settled by peoples, not by governments. The question is: are Palestinian Arabs ready for genuine peace with Israel? My answer: absolutely not.
Also today Israelis are less ready to make concessions.

Palestinians don't WANT to be Israelis. They might live together in peace. But it needs to be under separate self rule. Gotta establish self-rule in the 21st Century way. Not the way it was done for thousands of years as the Empires came and went. SOME will decide to live in the other's territory if assurances are given.

I LIKE individuals talking and living with each other. It's very effective. Cancels the group hate.

 

[admonit]

Nope. Those are all de-stabilizing elements. The opposite of "what has to happen".

Only to a zionist. The rest of the world disagrees. Again, where, outside of an insane asylum is there a group of people more detached from reality than zionists?

You never addressed the issue of having an established govt to provide internal and EXTERNAL border security. Free Palestine becomes an Islamic battleground without PRACTICAL considerations like that. Waste of time talking about drawing map lines and trading settlements if a LEADERSHIP and GOVERNMENT does not exist to negotiate the deals, settle the peace, and start VALUING Palestinian quality of life and freedom..

When people in fact live together on the same land, peace is settled by peoples, not by governments. The question is: are Palestinian Arabs ready for genuine peace with Israel? My answer: absolutely not.
Also today Israelis are less ready to make concessions.

Palestinians don't WANT to be Israelis. They might live together in peace. But it needs to be under separate self rule. Gotta establish self-rule in the 21st Century way. Not the way it was done for thousands of years as the Empires came and went. SOME will decide to live in the other's territory if assurances are given.

I LIKE individuals talking and living with each other. It's very effective. Cancels the group hate.

Israelis won't accept them in the first place. It is even out of discussion in Israel.
Palestinians already are under separate self rule. Only about 300,000 Palestinians currently live in Area C (excluding East Jerusalem).

 

[teddyearp]

Here's the deal. As flac has said, the Palestinians need to get it together and form a real government. They only need to look at what Israel did in 1948.

Could you imagine what it would be like if Israel didn't get their shit together back then? Not only would we have Hamas and Fatah, and Islamic brigade and Hezbollah, etc., but we may still have the palmach, irgun, hagannah, etc. infighting as well.

What a fucked up mess.

 

[P F Tinmore]

They could give some of it back to the original inhabitants...the ones who lost it through absentee landowner laws.

I have no problem with this. But FIRST the hostilities must end. You don't just invite hostile people who want to destroy your nation to come live under your sovereignty. Israel is having enough problems with the hostile population she decided NOT to ethnically cleanse without inviting MORE of them to live amongst the Israelis.

Israel has to stop its violence before anything can improve.

 

[Shusha]

Israel has to stop its violence before anything can improve.

What violence? Be specific?

 

[teddyearp]

Israel has to stop its violence before anything can improve.

That is a two way street. And you know it.

 

[P F Tinmore]

That can't happen under occupation. Everything they do gets bombed or bulldozed.

Oh bullshit. No one is bombing or bulldozing anything in Areas A and B. Build a government and infrastructure in those areas. Then, when the government is strong enough to have a presence start eroding Area C and incorporating it -- specifically in areas which will create a contiguous Palestinian State.

Israel controls Palestinian travel, trade, tourism, and economic development. Also most fertile land and water sources. The Palestinians can't do anything without Israel's approval, not even in area A.

 

[Shusha]

Israel has to stop its violence before anything can improve.

That is a two way street. And you know it.

I disagree. It is NOT a two-way street. The hostilities (cough cough "resistance") are being committed by only one side. Israel response is just that -- a response. No hostility. No response.

There is no moral equivalence here between murdering people in holy places and placing metal detectors to prevent the smuggling of guns into holy places. There is no moral equivalence between a suicide bomber and a checkpoint or a wall. There is no moral equivalence between a random stabbing and self defense. There is no moral equivalence between murdering an entire family while they sleep, or at their Shabbat table and arresting people who break the law.

 

[Shusha]

That can't happen under occupation. Everything they do gets bombed or bulldozed.

Oh bullshit. No one is bombing or bulldozing anything in Areas A and B. Build a government and infrastructure in those areas. Then, when the government is strong enough to have a presence start eroding Area C and incorporating it -- specifically in areas which will create a contiguous Palestinian State.

Israel controls Palestinian travel, trade, tourism, and economic development. Also most fertile land and water sources. The Palestinians can't do anything without Israel's approval, not even in area A.

And what would fix that? Oh wait.....I know this one. END THE HOSTILITIES.


(also I call bullshit on some of those)

 

[P F Tinmore]

We can't solve the problems of individual Arab Palestinians until we create safe, secure, stable governments for them to live under. That is the universal magic formula for thriving, successful human populations.

Which is why right of return, ending the occupation and free, fair and internationally monitored elections all must happen.

1) There IS right of return--for Jews from Ethiopia, Russia, India, Yemen, etc.

2) When the occupation ended in Gaza, southern Lebanon, and Area A of the West Bank, things only got worse.

3) There is no such thing as free and fair elections in the Arab world.

The Palestinian election in 2005 was judged free and fair by all international observers.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel has to stop its violence before anything can improve.

What violence? Be specific?

Oh jeese, do some reading and get back after you learn something.

 

[Shusha]

Israel has to stop its violence before anything can improve.

What violence? Be specific?

Oh jeese, do some reading and get back after you learn something.

Nice duck.

What violence is Israel committing that is not a response to Arab Palestinian hostilities? Be specific.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel has to stop its violence before anything can improve.

That is a two way street. And you know it.

And Israel continues its violence no matter what the Palestinians do or not do.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The last thing the world needs right now is the dissolution of Israel in the ME.

Debatable, but i never said anything about that.

Again, where, outside of an insane asylum is there a group of people more detached from reality than zionists?

Uh huh. Sure. You repeatedly (ad nauseum) demand the end of the occupation but refuse to elaborate on what that means despite being asked by multiple people multiple times.

So, when you say, "end the occupation" what DO you mean?

Israel would not need all that military to violate people's rights if they did not violate people's rights.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel has to stop its violence before anything can improve.

That is a two way street. And you know it.

I disagree. It is NOT a two-way street. The hostilities (cough cough "resistance") are being committed by only one side. Israel response is just that -- a response. No hostility. No response.

There is no moral equivalence here between murdering people in holy places and placing metal detectors to prevent the smuggling of guns into holy places. There is no moral equivalence between a suicide bomber and a checkpoint or a wall. There is no moral equivalence between a random stabbing and self defense. There is no moral equivalence between murdering an entire family while they sleep, or at their Shabbat table and arresting people who break the law.

Nice rant.

 

[Shusha]

Israel has to stop its violence before anything can improve.

That is a two way street. And you know it.

I disagree. It is NOT a two-way street. The hostilities (cough cough "resistance") are being committed by only one side. Israel response is just that -- a response. No hostility. No response.

There is no moral equivalence here between murdering people in holy places and placing metal detectors to prevent the smuggling of guns into holy places. There is no moral equivalence between a suicide bomber and a checkpoint or a wall. There is no moral equivalence between a random stabbing and self defense. There is no moral equivalence between murdering an entire family while they sleep, or at their Shabbat table and arresting people who break the law.

Nice rant.

Got nothing, huh?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Settlements
※→ P F Tinmore, Shusha, Coyote, et al,

Which comes first; the chicken or the egg?

They could give some of it back to the original inhabitants...the ones who lost it through absentee landowner laws.

I have no problem with this. But FIRST the hostilities must end. You don't just invite hostile people who want to destroy your nation to come live under your sovereignty. Israel is having enough problems with the hostile population she decided NOT to ethnically cleanse without inviting MORE of them to live amongst the Israelis.

Israel has to stop its violence before anything can improve.

(COMMENT)

The fact that some fractional part of the vocal Arab Palestinians claim that they → will stop their violence if Israel stops their violence, is a deceptive means to lure the Israelis out of the zones of effective control. The Arab Palestinian logic is: Israeli Force Presence brings Occupation → Occupation brings Resistance → Resistance brings Violence → is the string of causal events.

BUT again, this causal chain of events is not exactly correct. The initial factors that brought Israel to install a presence was the defense against the Egyptian threat by pushing aside the UN Emergency Force (acting as the buffer to maintain the peace) and then staging offensive military primes for action; → and Jordanian's actual offensive military action. This Israeli military presence in the West Bank, is the defensive measure to protect the territorial integrity or political independence of Israel by establishing a defensible border.

In the time since the Six Day War, the Arab Policy "de jure" has often flip-flopped on the issue of peace. But the true policy "de facto" has not changed since The Khartoum Resolution of September 1967: "no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations." The application of impossible pre-conditioned terms before the negations can commence is merely a very deceptive political stance that makes it appear the Arab Palestinians want to discuss peace; but, actually and intentionally avoid the possibility of negotiation by setting impossibles pre-conditions that block the negotiation process even before it begins.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Settlements
※→ P F Tinmore, Shusha, Coyote, et al,

Which comes first; the chicken or the egg?

They could give some of it back to the original inhabitants...the ones who lost it through absentee landowner laws.

I have no problem with this. But FIRST the hostilities must end. You don't just invite hostile people who want to destroy your nation to come live under your sovereignty. Israel is having enough problems with the hostile population she decided NOT to ethnically cleanse without inviting MORE of them to live amongst the Israelis.

Israel has to stop its violence before anything can improve.

(COMMENT)

The fact that some fractional part of the vocal Arab Palestinians claim that they → will stop their violence if Israel stops their violence, is a deceptive means to lure the Israelis out of the zones of effective control. The Arab Palestinian logic is: Israeli Force Presence brings Occupation → Occupation brings Resistance → Resistance brings Violence → is the string of causal events.

BUT again, this causal chain of events is not exactly correct. The initial factors that brought Israel to install a presence was the defense against the Egyptian threat by pushing aside the UN Emergency Force (acting as the buffer to maintain the peace) and then staging offensive military primes for action; → and Jordanian's actual offensive military action. This Israeli military presence in the West Bank, is the defensive measure to protect the territorial integrity or political independence of Israel by establishing a defensible border.

In the time since the Six Day War, the Arab Policy "de jure" has often flip-flopped on the issue of peace. But the true policy "de facto" has not changed since The Khartoum Resolution of September 1967: "no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations." The application of impossible pre-conditioned terms before the negations can commence is merely a very deceptive political stance that makes it appear the Arab Palestinians want to discuss peace; but, actually and intentionally avoid the possibility of negotiation by setting impossibles pre-conditions that block the negotiation process even before it begins.

Most Respectfully,
R

Which comes first; the chicken or the egg?

The first aggression was the imposition of settler colonialism on Palestine by military force in 1948 and even before. That settler colonialism is still being imposed on Palestine by military force.

 

[Hollie]

RE: Settlements
※→ P F Tinmore, Shusha, Coyote, et al,

Which comes first; the chicken or the egg?

They could give some of it back to the original inhabitants...the ones who lost it through absentee landowner laws.

I have no problem with this. But FIRST the hostilities must end. You don't just invite hostile people who want to destroy your nation to come live under your sovereignty. Israel is having enough problems with the hostile population she decided NOT to ethnically cleanse without inviting MORE of them to live amongst the Israelis.

Israel has to stop its violence before anything can improve.

(COMMENT)

The fact that some fractional part of the vocal Arab Palestinians claim that they → will stop their violence if Israel stops their violence, is a deceptive means to lure the Israelis out of the zones of effective control. The Arab Palestinian logic is: Israeli Force Presence brings Occupation → Occupation brings Resistance → Resistance brings Violence → is the string of causal events.

BUT again, this causal chain of events is not exactly correct. The initial factors that brought Israel to install a presence was the defense against the Egyptian threat by pushing aside the UN Emergency Force (acting as the buffer to maintain the peace) and then staging offensive military primes for action; → and Jordanian's actual offensive military action. This Israeli military presence in the West Bank, is the defensive measure to protect the territorial integrity or political independence of Israel by establishing a defensible border.

In the time since the Six Day War, the Arab Policy "de jure" has often flip-flopped on the issue of peace. But the true policy "de facto" has not changed since The Khartoum Resolution of September 1967: "no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations." The application of impossible pre-conditioned terms before the negations can commence is merely a very deceptive political stance that makes it appear the Arab Palestinians want to discuss peace; but, actually and intentionally avoid the possibility of negotiation by setting impossibles pre-conditions that block the negotiation process even before it begins.

Most Respectfully,
R

Which comes first; the chicken or the egg?

The first aggression was the imposition of settler colonialism on Palestine by military force in 1948 and even before. That settler colonialism is still being imposed on Palestine by military force.

I'm afraid you're longing for those halcyon days of Islamist colonialism, the settler colonial project of the Turk invaders, dhimmitude imposed on the kuffar, etc.

Sorry, but those days are gone. The Islamist caliphate is not coming back.