'SEE / KNOW Something, SAY SOMETHING'....Why DECADES of 'Enabling', ESPECIALLY By WOMEN?

[HereWeGoAgain]

Fear

The people they would be speaking out against have power and influence. These women's lives could be ruined for nothing.

Or they were willing to give up their virtue for a shot at the limelight.
It's become fashionable to pile on Weinstein so they're coming out of the woodwork.
This of course doesn't mean Weinstein isn't a scumbag.

 

[EverCurious]

Because despite decades of attempts to force the idea that women are just as capable as men in the work force, reality shows that a good deal of them are emotionally incapable of defending themselves, lack the self confidence to speak up, and are too wrapped up in the "feminist quest for a career" to actually bother standing up for their own [alleged] personal moral convictions...

Trying to stand up against the enablers of predators is extremely emotionally taxing and if those females do not have good people standing with them they are crushed under the weight of the false accusations and bs that follows complaint or taking a stand for truth. It is much better now than it was thirty and forty years ago but I don't think on a whole at this point there is any excuse for people who can help stand against abuse staying silent about it when it happens. If the abused do not speak up now when it happens or with more recent incidences they are assisting the enablers of abuses.

That doesn't really deflate my point; it is becoming clear that a rather large portion of women are, or at a minimum, "were" too emotionally weak to handle themselves without protections. Ironically those protections were that women stayed away from the cut-throat world of business, they were protected from other men; hell they had separate train cars in the way back (so the men could talk shit, and the women could gab, and so that the men would take the brunt of the impact in an accident.) 90% of the shit that feminism labels as "disrespectful" to women is actually the exact fucking opposite - but this is the age of being offended so idiots all over are actively turning over every stone to find anything that could remotely be considered offensive in some twisted way. But I digress on the subject of "progressive ideology inevitably leading to stupidity."


I do agree though, women should say something, right then, and perhaps even if /they/ are not offended at the time (when we're talking about abuse of power situations.) I made that mistake myself. My bosses husband (also a coworker and in a management position, though not /my/ manager) was all over me, I turned him down hard, repeatedly, but I ultimately had to move to a different district because he wouldn't give up. It didn't offend me, nor did he "rape or assault" me by even today's crazy standards, he was just persistent... He was always very respectful (charming even), but I wasn't interested in him, so ya know I never reported it, I just removed myself from the situation. Years later the guy went to jail for sleeping with the young teen (15-18 year old) employees he was supposed to be supervising. I kicked myself a bit after that, because I could have stopped them girls from getting involved with the guy (and his wife, cause she was in on it all) but at the time, it just didn't occur to me that I wasn't a "special" case (I was a pretty narc what does one expect heh) I didn't really think he was hitting on everyone... I didn't think he was pedo...

I cannot help but wonder how many of these #metoo women's /real/ story is like mine? Where the woman just blew it off for whatever reason. To bring it up now as an "accusation" is pretty shitty imo. Not saying we can't have a "cultural adjustment" where that's not the norm anymore - where it's reported immediately and stuff, but I'm not sure they're... being fully honest... or maybe not helping the cause... It's hard to explain, but it's like we're stuck in this hysteria atm that's deflating any actual good that might come out of this "movement"

Like we seriously need to have an adult discussion to define, or even redefine, what constitutes sexual assault and harassment... In the past it was kind of based on "malicious" intent... It's like, when I decided I wanted to sleep with my current husband, I didn't ask his permission like some pussy beta; I grabbed his ass and stuck my tongue down his throat - fully expecting that he was into me based on our flirting and shit prior. IF he had pushed me away or turned me down then it was no big deal, swing and a miss, nothing more. It's not like I'd have stalked him or pushed him into it if he wasn't interested. My intentions were not "malicious" in the slightest. Similarly like Bush patting the gal on the ass, the David-cop-a-feel joke is older than dirt, there's no "harm" intended in that, it's just playing around. I mean I get it if a gal doesn't want her ass touched, but how about being an adult and saying that you don't like it straight up - guaranteed 99% of guys would be like "no problem, sorry" because they didn't mean anything by it, didn't mean to upset the gal or anything. It's like when married guys joke about their "ball and chain" and how "shitty marriage is" - it's just a joke, ya know what I mean? Then there's the fruit loop shit like a guy complementing a woman is harassment, give me a fucking break... Look we're sexual creatures, even us women, we have sex on the brain all the time so we joke about it all the damn time - we have to respect that "reality" too, plus how's a guy and a girl gonna hook up if /everything/ that might get them into bed is considered rape, assault, or harassment? It's unrealistic and it ... cheapens the seriousness of the terms - like calling everyone a nazi and shit.

I'm just saying that there has to be an adult discussion about the "new" parameters of "acceptable" behavior, we can't just hold everyone to these new undisclosed standards 20 years down the road - and I don't see how we can have that kind of discussion when we're in this hysteria of #metoo... IDK the solution, but there has to be some realistic limits that somehow respects both the ideas that not all men are fucking pigs, and that some of us women /want/ a guy to be bold and "aggressive" in their pick up lines. There has to be a mutual respect and understanding, as well as discussion about what /women/ need to say or do or something if a guy catcalls them and that makes them uncomfortable - calling the police isn't the right response IMO, women need to say hey, don't do that - and men (likely already) can respect that that particular woman doesn't like it, no biggie and both move on with a better understanding of each other. A good thing ya know, a positive outcome.

I wasn't trying to deflate your point. Fact is I went through being one of the first female contractors years and years ago. All of us first ones to go there were extremely harassed. Out of six others I knew of in that exact same position only one was willing to try to stand up against it with me and she was slandered when she stood because one of her children had drowned in a terrible accident a few years previously. We could not have stood up with our voices if there had not been good men and women to stand with us in positions that could make a difference.

I agree hysteria isn't necessary but as far as I am concerned males and females need to keep their paws to themselves no matter who they are unless there is some kind of connection of beyond a doubt there that would be an obvious come-on. Maybe some think it is perfectly normal to act animalistic but I don't.

I'd be with Rod once in awhile at the local bar when he asked (pleaded with) me to come down and have a drink (his hobby at the time to get away from the hustle and bustle of work) with him and guys would be persistent even when I'd tell them "I am happily married not thank you" or "I'm perfectly content with my husband's attentions not interested have a good day." I'd get frustrated at the ones that persisted beyond reasonable that couldn't understand "happily married' and eventually spout off something like, "Maybe you should just have HIT ME tattooed to you forehead to cut out the bullshit so you won't be wasting other people's time". Rod even went to the extreme of having me wear a big diamond on my hand as a show of purchase for the one's in hick town that money seems to be the only language they understand where males and females still are backward enough to think love has a price of some sort. How would you feel if you were trying to support yourself and some guy starts spouting about how good your ass looks and what it may feel like to them (I have seen that a lot over the years and always knew its a good thing I didn't have to stay working as a waitress). Isn't stuff like that a bit too much and extremely rude. I mean is our society that stoogepid and ignorance so far propagated that it can't get past the fact that females have families to support too. Also how about an equipment operator hitting you with a backhoe boom because he doesn't think a female belongs on a construction site working to support her children too. Or the guy in an office where you work that tells you his wife knows he sleeps around so its okay if....

I used to have a few employees and even some professionals make comments from time to time Miss ........ you sure look mighty fine today or things of that nature which I don't consider harassment but then again I rarely dressed in nice casual clothes instead of sloppy work clothes for that same reason as I didn't want anyone getting the wrong idea. Females used to wrap wide bandages around their breast trying to flatten them out so males would get the wrong idea. That tells me that some males are too immature to be around females and the same goes for females if they are so totally messed up that all they can think about the opposite sex is the sex they could have with them and can't control their animalistic urges. My males dogs have had better etiquette around female bitches in heat than a lot of people seem to have today.

Catcalls I always thought were somewhat barbaric and may be harmless but then again there are too many idiots out there that would stop at just letting their shit fly out of their mouths. If their mouths are vile it is a good possibility their minds are too.

Perhaps you have been raised in a sexualized environment where sexualizing people is in every nook and cranny of society so that is what is on your mind all the time but I can assure that not everyone 'thinks about sex all the time'. There are a lot of other things in this world to see and learn about that both male and females discuss without anything sexual ever being inferred in the conversations. The way sexualization is constantly at the forefront of every venue out there it looks like the entire society is fully saturated with it all and it is just one big happy orgy. Facts are is there are a lot of miserable people out there pushing to keep this giant orgy going with shit like Viagra, abortions on demand and classes or workshops, etc. on how to feel good while doing........whatever type act it is with whoever where ever without any restraints or restrictions on their party time.

I was corporate America circa early 90s, a bit better than the 70s & 80s but yea a lot of guys thought I shouldn't have been in "their world." Thing is, so? I'm also a gamer, another area of the world that girls are not really "supposed" to be, they say I'm lying about being a chick when I trash them in pvp (player vs player). Again, so?

I think the part you're missing, and really all of the "defenders" are missing, but yet somehow saying you/tehy get, is that WE women make the choice to either be a victim or a survivor of "normal" sexually charged male/female interaction. A victim cries about being harassed and has emotional issues because a guy said "nice ass" to them, a survivor, who I argue can actually handle the situation and the job/field/whatever, laughs and tells them to fuck off (joking, semi-jokingly even) The victim carries around some bullshit, completely invented, irrational fear of being raped because a guy commented on them looking good today, rather than laughing it off and saying something along the lines of "Window shopping is free, but you can't afford it" or whatever smart ass comment (because men speak smart ass as a second language.) A victim feels that they need "protection," they need "help," and they need "punishments" for anyone who /dares/ to hit on them without their express permission. It's bullshit and unrealistic. That is part of the "adult conversation" I was talking about us, as a society, needing to have on the subject.

As for your personal persistent guy, and fuck off about guys hitting on you in the bar please - what the fuck do you think bars are for? finding dates woman, duh, its practically the entire fucking point of a bar AND getting drunk, shit.... Anyway, the persistent guy doing it at work sounds like a fucking asshole, I had one of those too as I noted. However, neither Steve, nor your guy are nothing like the vast, vast majority of the guys /I/ knew and had worked with over the past almost 3 decades. If I had to break it down, I'd say 90% of the guys I worked with were gentlemen and smart enough to keep their little head from controlling their mouths in the office, maybe 5-6% hit on me or other women (but in their defense here they were mostly trying to date these girls, not rape them, not assault them, not harass them, or even just fuck em and leave em, they were looking for "the one" for a wife etc.,) maybe 4-5% were looking for just sex (cheating on their wives? some yea, with their wives permission? some yes, some just single guys not ready to settle down but wanting some tail,) then there's the 1% of guys who wouldn't give up when you tell them you're not interested; those guys need to be "socially removed" or whatever, I agree. However, I'm not intellectually dishonest enough to claim the system is fucked because of that 1% of stupid dicks in the world, I'm not going to hint that workplaces aren't "safe" for women because of those few asshats - who I can bet are asshats about everything, not just thinking all women are theirs for the taking.


You seem like a prude dear, no offence, and you're welcome to that opinion, but myself when a guy comments on my looks I take it for what it is, a compliment, rather than an offensive thing, much less some kind of "threat" or something. Life isn't all about you and your feels, sometimes you're gonna be uncomfortable and you have to deal with it like an adult - not a child who needs mommy and daddy to come "save" them... You can continue with the blinders on with your opinion that no one thinks about sex, but actual studies prove you wrong; even modern [post third-wave feminism] studies find that on average men think about sex around 19 times a day, women about 10 times a day - and if you think a pretty woman dressed up in a skirt suit, or a guy in a well tailored suit, doesn't set that shit off you're only fooling yourself. It doesn't even /matter/ what folks are wearing so much, it's biologically hard wired into "most" peoples brains - like I sleep nude because I have temp control issues (can't sweat and shit) my husband gets totally turned on if I put on a pair of undies because it's "hiding shit", it's the stupidest thing IMO, but that's where it is for him. Anyway, long trusted studies spit out that only 4% of men go by your "ideal" of not thinking about sex on a daily or weekly basis, so here again you are holding the world to the farthest extreme example of "idealism"...

I'm not saying we can't change what is "socially acceptable" however there needs to be a bit of reality, not this bullshit ideal that no one can /ever/ be offended in life (the office, on the streets, at the fucking bar, etc.) and everyone has to "shut up" because someone else might be offended. That is unrealistic in the shelter of fucking colleges, no way in hell its gonna work in the real world - regardless of if that's your utopia or not. Personally, I don't don't have a problem with crass "barbaric" men who speak up when they like something; I happen to like an alpha who's not afraid to say what is on his mind, to go after the shit he wants - that's a "real man" in my book. That's my personal opinion no doubt, but why the fuck should the standards be set to your personal opinions instead of mine? Why are your ideals 'better' than mine? That's the rub that we as a society have to get past, there's got to be a middle ground - not just /your/ personal opinion of what's acceptable and what is "harassment" "assault" "rape" - and not just mine either, it has to be a "standard" that we can all agree on to some degree and THEN we can "enforce" compliance via "punishment" for those newly defined "improper" behaviors.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Fear

The people they would be speaking out against have power and influence. These women's lives could be ruined for nothing.

'For Nothing'?

Countless numbers of women have been sexually harassed, assaulted, and raped because no one stood up.

I am not only pointing to the women - according to many who have spoken out many MEN protected and enabled these predators.

That Watchdog group that now seeks to expose the names of the Congressmen who paid off their victims using tax dollars to do so is right - the culture must be changed...the current culture of sexual mis-conduct and enabling must be BURNT TO THE GROUND!

I agree, but throwing blame towards the victims doesn't accomplish that. Understanding that the victims are emotionally damaged by these acts, and that coming forward takes an amazing amount of strength, does help accomplish that.

It's easy to sit back and say "Just say something". But can you imagine the thought that the person who sexually assaulted you would walk away scott free, while you're labeled an unpatriotic partisan hack just for telling your story. That's what these victims have to deal with. Look at what happened to the people who spoke out against Bill Clinton and Donald Trump.

If they don't step forward, the person gets away scot free and does it again and again.

Can you name any of the women who claimed Trump assaulted them?

What's that?

Do I hear crickets?

 

[RodISHI]

Because despite decades of attempts to force the idea that women are just as capable as men in the work force, reality shows that a good deal of them are emotionally incapable of defending themselves, lack the self confidence to speak up, and are too wrapped up in the "feminist quest for a career" to actually bother standing up for their own [alleged] personal moral convictions...

Trying to stand up against the enablers of predators is extremely emotionally taxing and if those females do not have good people standing with them they are crushed under the weight of the false accusations and bs that follows complaint or taking a stand for truth. It is much better now than it was thirty and forty years ago but I don't think on a whole at this point there is any excuse for people who can help stand against abuse staying silent about it when it happens. If the abused do not speak up now when it happens or with more recent incidences they are assisting the enablers of abuses.

That doesn't really deflate my point; it is becoming clear that a rather large portion of women are, or at a minimum, "were" too emotionally weak to handle themselves without protections. Ironically those protections were that women stayed away from the cut-throat world of business, they were protected from other men; hell they had separate train cars in the way back (so the men could talk shit, and the women could gab, and so that the men would take the brunt of the impact in an accident.) 90% of the shit that feminism labels as "disrespectful" to women is actually the exact fucking opposite - but this is the age of being offended so idiots all over are actively turning over every stone to find anything that could remotely be considered offensive in some twisted way. But I digress on the subject of "progressive ideology inevitably leading to stupidity."


I do agree though, women should say something, right then, and perhaps even if /they/ are not offended at the time (when we're talking about abuse of power situations.) I made that mistake myself. My bosses husband (also a coworker and in a management position, though not /my/ manager) was all over me, I turned him down hard, repeatedly, but I ultimately had to move to a different district because he wouldn't give up. It didn't offend me, nor did he "rape or assault" me by even today's crazy standards, he was just persistent... He was always very respectful (charming even), but I wasn't interested in him, so ya know I never reported it, I just removed myself from the situation. Years later the guy went to jail for sleeping with the young teen (15-18 year old) employees he was supposed to be supervising. I kicked myself a bit after that, because I could have stopped them girls from getting involved with the guy (and his wife, cause she was in on it all) but at the time, it just didn't occur to me that I wasn't a "special" case (I was a pretty narc what does one expect heh) I didn't really think he was hitting on everyone... I didn't think he was pedo...

I cannot help but wonder how many of these #metoo women's /real/ story is like mine? Where the woman just blew it off for whatever reason. To bring it up now as an "accusation" is pretty shitty imo. Not saying we can't have a "cultural adjustment" where that's not the norm anymore - where it's reported immediately and stuff, but I'm not sure they're... being fully honest... or maybe not helping the cause... It's hard to explain, but it's like we're stuck in this hysteria atm that's deflating any actual good that might come out of this "movement"

Like we seriously need to have an adult discussion to define, or even redefine, what constitutes sexual assault and harassment... In the past it was kind of based on "malicious" intent... It's like, when I decided I wanted to sleep with my current husband, I didn't ask his permission like some pussy beta; I grabbed his ass and stuck my tongue down his throat - fully expecting that he was into me based on our flirting and shit prior. IF he had pushed me away or turned me down then it was no big deal, swing and a miss, nothing more. It's not like I'd have stalked him or pushed him into it if he wasn't interested. My intentions were not "malicious" in the slightest. Similarly like Bush patting the gal on the ass, the David-cop-a-feel joke is older than dirt, there's no "harm" intended in that, it's just playing around. I mean I get it if a gal doesn't want her ass touched, but how about being an adult and saying that you don't like it straight up - guaranteed 99% of guys would be like "no problem, sorry" because they didn't mean anything by it, didn't mean to upset the gal or anything. It's like when married guys joke about their "ball and chain" and how "shitty marriage is" - it's just a joke, ya know what I mean? Then there's the fruit loop shit like a guy complementing a woman is harassment, give me a fucking break... Look we're sexual creatures, even us women, we have sex on the brain all the time so we joke about it all the damn time - we have to respect that "reality" too, plus how's a guy and a girl gonna hook up if /everything/ that might get them into bed is considered rape, assault, or harassment? It's unrealistic and it ... cheapens the seriousness of the terms - like calling everyone a nazi and shit.

I'm just saying that there has to be an adult discussion about the "new" parameters of "acceptable" behavior, we can't just hold everyone to these new undisclosed standards 20 years down the road - and I don't see how we can have that kind of discussion when we're in this hysteria of #metoo... IDK the solution, but there has to be some realistic limits that somehow respects both the ideas that not all men are fucking pigs, and that some of us women /want/ a guy to be bold and "aggressive" in their pick up lines. There has to be a mutual respect and understanding, as well as discussion about what /women/ need to say or do or something if a guy catcalls them and that makes them uncomfortable - calling the police isn't the right response IMO, women need to say hey, don't do that - and men (likely already) can respect that that particular woman doesn't like it, no biggie and both move on with a better understanding of each other. A good thing ya know, a positive outcome.

I wasn't trying to deflate your point. Fact is I went through being one of the first female contractors years and years ago. All of us first ones to go there were extremely harassed. Out of six others I knew of in that exact same position only one was willing to try to stand up against it with me and she was slandered when she stood because one of her children had drowned in a terrible accident a few years previously. We could not have stood up with our voices if there had not been good men and women to stand with us in positions that could make a difference.

I agree hysteria isn't necessary but as far as I am concerned males and females need to keep their paws to themselves no matter who they are unless there is some kind of connection of beyond a doubt there that would be an obvious come-on. Maybe some think it is perfectly normal to act animalistic but I don't.

I'd be with Rod once in awhile at the local bar when he asked (pleaded with) me to come down and have a drink (his hobby at the time to get away from the hustle and bustle of work) with him and guys would be persistent even when I'd tell them "I am happily married not thank you" or "I'm perfectly content with my husband's attentions not interested have a good day." I'd get frustrated at the ones that persisted beyond reasonable that couldn't understand "happily married' and eventually spout off something like, "Maybe you should just have HIT ME tattooed to you forehead to cut out the bullshit so you won't be wasting other people's time". Rod even went to the extreme of having me wear a big diamond on my hand as a show of purchase for the one's in hick town that money seems to be the only language they understand where males and females still are backward enough to think love has a price of some sort. How would you feel if you were trying to support yourself and some guy starts spouting about how good your ass looks and what it may feel like to them (I have seen that a lot over the years and always knew its a good thing I didn't have to stay working as a waitress). Isn't stuff like that a bit too much and extremely rude. I mean is our society that stoogepid and ignorance so far propagated that it can't get past the fact that females have families to support too. Also how about an equipment operator hitting you with a backhoe boom because he doesn't think a female belongs on a construction site working to support her children too. Or the guy in an office where you work that tells you his wife knows he sleeps around so its okay if....

I used to have a few employees and even some professionals make comments from time to time Miss ........ you sure look mighty fine today or things of that nature which I don't consider harassment but then again I rarely dressed in nice casual clothes instead of sloppy work clothes for that same reason as I didn't want anyone getting the wrong idea. Females used to wrap wide bandages around their breast trying to flatten them out so males would get the wrong idea. That tells me that some males are too immature to be around females and the same goes for females if they are so totally messed up that all they can think about the opposite sex is the sex they could have with them and can't control their animalistic urges. My males dogs have had better etiquette around female bitches in heat than a lot of people seem to have today.

Catcalls I always thought were somewhat barbaric and may be harmless but then again there are too many idiots out there that would stop at just letting their shit fly out of their mouths. If their mouths are vile it is a good possibility their minds are too.

Perhaps you have been raised in a sexualized environment where sexualizing people is in every nook and cranny of society so that is what is on your mind all the time but I can assure that not everyone 'thinks about sex all the time'. There are a lot of other things in this world to see and learn about that both male and females discuss without anything sexual ever being inferred in the conversations. The way sexualization is constantly at the forefront of every venue out there it looks like the entire society is fully saturated with it all and it is just one big happy orgy. Facts are is there are a lot of miserable people out there pushing to keep this giant orgy going with shit like Viagra, abortions on demand and classes or workshops, etc. on how to feel good while doing........whatever type act it is with whoever where ever without any restraints or restrictions on their party time.

I was corporate America circa early 90s, a bit better than the 70s & 80s but yea a lot of guys thought I shouldn't have been in "their world." Thing is, so? I'm also a gamer, another area of the world that girls are not really "supposed" to be, they say I'm lying about being a chick when I trash them in pvp (player vs player). Again, so?

I think the part you're missing, and really all of the "defenders" are missing, but yet somehow saying you/tehy get, is that WE women make the choice to either be a victim or a survivor of "normal" sexually charged male/female interaction. A victim cries about being harassed and has emotional issues because a guy said "nice ass" to them, a survivor, who I argue can actually handle the situation and the job/field/whatever, laughs and tells them to fuck off (joking, semi-jokingly even) The victim carries around some bullshit, completely invented, irrational fear of being raped because a guy commented on them looking good today, rather than laughing it off and saying something along the lines of "Window shopping is free, but you can't afford it" or whatever smart ass comment (because men speak smart ass as a second language.) A victim feels that they need "protection," they need "help," and they need "punishments" for anyone who /dares/ to hit on them without their express permission. It's bullshit and unrealistic. That is part of the "adult conversation" I was talking about us, as a society, needing to have on the subject.

As for your personal persistent guy, and fuck off about guys hitting on you in the bar please - what the fuck do you think bars are for? finding dates woman, duh, its practically the entire fucking point of a bar AND getting drunk, shit.... Anyway, the persistent guy doing it at work sounds like a fucking asshole, I had one of those too as I noted. However, neither Steve, nor your guy are nothing like the vast, vast majority of the guys /I/ knew and had worked with over the past almost 3 decades. If I had to break it down, I'd say 90% of the guys I worked with were gentlemen and smart enough to keep their little head from controlling their mouths in the office, maybe 5-6% hit on me or other women (but in their defense here they were mostly trying to date these girls, not rape them, not assault them, not harass them, or even just fuck em and leave em, they were looking for "the one" for a wife etc.,) maybe 4-5% were looking for just sex (cheating on their wives? some yea, with their wives permission? some yes, some just single guys not ready to settle down but wanting some tail,) then there's the 1% of guys who wouldn't give up when you tell them you're not interested; those guys need to be "socially removed" or whatever, I agree. However, I'm not intellectually dishonest enough to claim the system is fucked because of that 1% of stupid dicks in the world, I'm not going to hint that workplaces aren't "safe" for women because of those few asshats - who I can bet are asshats about everything, not just thinking all women are theirs for the taking.


You seem like a prude dear, no offence, and you're welcome to that opinion, but myself when a guy comments on my looks I take it for what it is, a compliment, rather than an offensive thing, much less some kind of "threat" or something. Life isn't all about you and your feels, sometimes you're gonna be uncomfortable and you have to deal with it like an adult - not a child who needs mommy and daddy to come "save" them... You can continue with the blinders on with your opinion that no one thinks about sex, but actual studies prove you wrong; even modern [post third-wave feminism] studies find that on average men think about sex around 19 times a day, women about 10 times a day - and if you think a pretty woman dressed up in a skirt suit, or a guy in a well tailored suit, doesn't set that shit off you're only fooling yourself. It doesn't even /matter/ what folks are wearing so much, it's biologically hard wired into "most" peoples brains - like I sleep nude because I have temp control issues (can't sweat and shit) my husband gets totally turned on if I put on a pair of undies because it's "hiding shit", it's the stupidest thing IMO, but that's where it is for him. Anyway, long trusted studies spit out that only 4% of men go by your "ideal" of not thinking about sex on a daily or weekly basis, so here again you are holding the world to the farthest extreme example of "idealism"...

I'm not saying we can't change what is "socially acceptable" however there needs to be a bit of reality, not this bullshit ideal that no one can /ever/ be offended in life (the office, on the streets, at the fucking bar, etc.) and everyone has to "shut up" because someone else might be offended. That is unrealistic in the shelter of fucking colleges, no way in hell its gonna work in the real world - regardless of if that's your utopia or not. Personally, I don't don't have a problem with crass "barbaric" men who speak up when they like something; I happen to like an alpha who's not afraid to say what is on his mind, to go after the shit he wants - that's a "real man" in my book. That's my personal opinion no doubt, but why the fuck should the standards be set to your personal opinions instead of mine? Why are your ideals 'better' than mine? That's the rub that we as a society have to get past, there's got to be a middle ground - not just /your/ personal opinion of what's acceptable and what is "harassment" "assault" "rape" - and not just mine either, it has to be a "standard" that we can all agree on to some degree and THEN we can "enforce" compliance via "punishment" for those newly defined "improper" behaviors.

I am sure I am a prude in your eyes but age and life experiences have a tendency to bring you back to the knowledge of why a person feels uncomfortable around game players such as you just admitted you are. Your computer life of being "a gamer" is not reality.

 

[EverCurious]

Because despite decades of attempts to force the idea that women are just as capable as men in the work force, reality shows that a good deal of them are emotionally incapable of defending themselves, lack the self confidence to speak up, and are too wrapped up in the "feminist quest for a career" to actually bother standing up for their own [alleged] personal moral convictions...

Trying to stand up against the enablers of predators is extremely emotionally taxing and if those females do not have good people standing with them they are crushed under the weight of the false accusations and bs that follows complaint or taking a stand for truth. It is much better now than it was thirty and forty years ago but I don't think on a whole at this point there is any excuse for people who can help stand against abuse staying silent about it when it happens. If the abused do not speak up now when it happens or with more recent incidences they are assisting the enablers of abuses.

That doesn't really deflate my point; it is becoming clear that a rather large portion of women are, or at a minimum, "were" too emotionally weak to handle themselves without protections. Ironically those protections were that women stayed away from the cut-throat world of business, they were protected from other men; hell they had separate train cars in the way back (so the men could talk shit, and the women could gab, and so that the men would take the brunt of the impact in an accident.) 90% of the shit that feminism labels as "disrespectful" to women is actually the exact fucking opposite - but this is the age of being offended so idiots all over are actively turning over every stone to find anything that could remotely be considered offensive in some twisted way. But I digress on the subject of "progressive ideology inevitably leading to stupidity."


I do agree though, women should say something, right then, and perhaps even if /they/ are not offended at the time (when we're talking about abuse of power situations.) I made that mistake myself. My bosses husband (also a coworker and in a management position, though not /my/ manager) was all over me, I turned him down hard, repeatedly, but I ultimately had to move to a different district because he wouldn't give up. It didn't offend me, nor did he "rape or assault" me by even today's crazy standards, he was just persistent... He was always very respectful (charming even), but I wasn't interested in him, so ya know I never reported it, I just removed myself from the situation. Years later the guy went to jail for sleeping with the young teen (15-18 year old) employees he was supposed to be supervising. I kicked myself a bit after that, because I could have stopped them girls from getting involved with the guy (and his wife, cause she was in on it all) but at the time, it just didn't occur to me that I wasn't a "special" case (I was a pretty narc what does one expect heh) I didn't really think he was hitting on everyone... I didn't think he was pedo...

I cannot help but wonder how many of these #metoo women's /real/ story is like mine? Where the woman just blew it off for whatever reason. To bring it up now as an "accusation" is pretty shitty imo. Not saying we can't have a "cultural adjustment" where that's not the norm anymore - where it's reported immediately and stuff, but I'm not sure they're... being fully honest... or maybe not helping the cause... It's hard to explain, but it's like we're stuck in this hysteria atm that's deflating any actual good that might come out of this "movement"

Like we seriously need to have an adult discussion to define, or even redefine, what constitutes sexual assault and harassment... In the past it was kind of based on "malicious" intent... It's like, when I decided I wanted to sleep with my current husband, I didn't ask his permission like some pussy beta; I grabbed his ass and stuck my tongue down his throat - fully expecting that he was into me based on our flirting and shit prior. IF he had pushed me away or turned me down then it was no big deal, swing and a miss, nothing more. It's not like I'd have stalked him or pushed him into it if he wasn't interested. My intentions were not "malicious" in the slightest. Similarly like Bush patting the gal on the ass, the David-cop-a-feel joke is older than dirt, there's no "harm" intended in that, it's just playing around. I mean I get it if a gal doesn't want her ass touched, but how about being an adult and saying that you don't like it straight up - guaranteed 99% of guys would be like "no problem, sorry" because they didn't mean anything by it, didn't mean to upset the gal or anything. It's like when married guys joke about their "ball and chain" and how "shitty marriage is" - it's just a joke, ya know what I mean? Then there's the fruit loop shit like a guy complementing a woman is harassment, give me a fucking break... Look we're sexual creatures, even us women, we have sex on the brain all the time so we joke about it all the damn time - we have to respect that "reality" too, plus how's a guy and a girl gonna hook up if /everything/ that might get them into bed is considered rape, assault, or harassment? It's unrealistic and it ... cheapens the seriousness of the terms - like calling everyone a nazi and shit.

I'm just saying that there has to be an adult discussion about the "new" parameters of "acceptable" behavior, we can't just hold everyone to these new undisclosed standards 20 years down the road - and I don't see how we can have that kind of discussion when we're in this hysteria of #metoo... IDK the solution, but there has to be some realistic limits that somehow respects both the ideas that not all men are fucking pigs, and that some of us women /want/ a guy to be bold and "aggressive" in their pick up lines. There has to be a mutual respect and understanding, as well as discussion about what /women/ need to say or do or something if a guy catcalls them and that makes them uncomfortable - calling the police isn't the right response IMO, women need to say hey, don't do that - and men (likely already) can respect that that particular woman doesn't like it, no biggie and both move on with a better understanding of each other. A good thing ya know, a positive outcome.

I wasn't trying to deflate your point. Fact is I went through being one of the first female contractors years and years ago. All of us first ones to go there were extremely harassed. Out of six others I knew of in that exact same position only one was willing to try to stand up against it with me and she was slandered when she stood because one of her children had drowned in a terrible accident a few years previously. We could not have stood up with our voices if there had not been good men and women to stand with us in positions that could make a difference.

I agree hysteria isn't necessary but as far as I am concerned males and females need to keep their paws to themselves no matter who they are unless there is some kind of connection of beyond a doubt there that would be an obvious come-on. Maybe some think it is perfectly normal to act animalistic but I don't.

I'd be with Rod once in awhile at the local bar when he asked (pleaded with) me to come down and have a drink (his hobby at the time to get away from the hustle and bustle of work) with him and guys would be persistent even when I'd tell them "I am happily married not thank you" or "I'm perfectly content with my husband's attentions not interested have a good day." I'd get frustrated at the ones that persisted beyond reasonable that couldn't understand "happily married' and eventually spout off something like, "Maybe you should just have HIT ME tattooed to you forehead to cut out the bullshit so you won't be wasting other people's time". Rod even went to the extreme of having me wear a big diamond on my hand as a show of purchase for the one's in hick town that money seems to be the only language they understand where males and females still are backward enough to think love has a price of some sort. How would you feel if you were trying to support yourself and some guy starts spouting about how good your ass looks and what it may feel like to them (I have seen that a lot over the years and always knew its a good thing I didn't have to stay working as a waitress). Isn't stuff like that a bit too much and extremely rude. I mean is our society that stoogepid and ignorance so far propagated that it can't get past the fact that females have families to support too. Also how about an equipment operator hitting you with a backhoe boom because he doesn't think a female belongs on a construction site working to support her children too. Or the guy in an office where you work that tells you his wife knows he sleeps around so its okay if....

I used to have a few employees and even some professionals make comments from time to time Miss ........ you sure look mighty fine today or things of that nature which I don't consider harassment but then again I rarely dressed in nice casual clothes instead of sloppy work clothes for that same reason as I didn't want anyone getting the wrong idea. Females used to wrap wide bandages around their breast trying to flatten them out so males would get the wrong idea. That tells me that some males are too immature to be around females and the same goes for females if they are so totally messed up that all they can think about the opposite sex is the sex they could have with them and can't control their animalistic urges. My males dogs have had better etiquette around female bitches in heat than a lot of people seem to have today.

Catcalls I always thought were somewhat barbaric and may be harmless but then again there are too many idiots out there that would stop at just letting their shit fly out of their mouths. If their mouths are vile it is a good possibility their minds are too.

Perhaps you have been raised in a sexualized environment where sexualizing people is in every nook and cranny of society so that is what is on your mind all the time but I can assure that not everyone 'thinks about sex all the time'. There are a lot of other things in this world to see and learn about that both male and females discuss without anything sexual ever being inferred in the conversations. The way sexualization is constantly at the forefront of every venue out there it looks like the entire society is fully saturated with it all and it is just one big happy orgy. Facts are is there are a lot of miserable people out there pushing to keep this giant orgy going with shit like Viagra, abortions on demand and classes or workshops, etc. on how to feel good while doing........whatever type act it is with whoever where ever without any restraints or restrictions on their party time.

I was corporate America circa early 90s, a bit better than the 70s & 80s but yea a lot of guys thought I shouldn't have been in "their world." Thing is, so? I'm also a gamer, another area of the world that girls are not really "supposed" to be, they say I'm lying about being a chick when I trash them in pvp (player vs player). Again, so?

I think the part you're missing, and really all of the "defenders" are missing, but yet somehow saying you/tehy get, is that WE women make the choice to either be a victim or a survivor of "normal" sexually charged male/female interaction. A victim cries about being harassed and has emotional issues because a guy said "nice ass" to them, a survivor, who I argue can actually handle the situation and the job/field/whatever, laughs and tells them to fuck off (joking, semi-jokingly even) The victim carries around some bullshit, completely invented, irrational fear of being raped because a guy commented on them looking good today, rather than laughing it off and saying something along the lines of "Window shopping is free, but you can't afford it" or whatever smart ass comment (because men speak smart ass as a second language.) A victim feels that they need "protection," they need "help," and they need "punishments" for anyone who /dares/ to hit on them without their express permission. It's bullshit and unrealistic. That is part of the "adult conversation" I was talking about us, as a society, needing to have on the subject.

As for your personal persistent guy, and fuck off about guys hitting on you in the bar please - what the fuck do you think bars are for? finding dates woman, duh, its practically the entire fucking point of a bar AND getting drunk, shit.... Anyway, the persistent guy doing it at work sounds like a fucking asshole, I had one of those too as I noted. However, neither Steve, nor your guy are nothing like the vast, vast majority of the guys /I/ knew and had worked with over the past almost 3 decades. If I had to break it down, I'd say 90% of the guys I worked with were gentlemen and smart enough to keep their little head from controlling their mouths in the office, maybe 5-6% hit on me or other women (but in their defense here they were mostly trying to date these girls, not rape them, not assault them, not harass them, or even just fuck em and leave em, they were looking for "the one" for a wife etc.,) maybe 4-5% were looking for just sex (cheating on their wives? some yea, with their wives permission? some yes, some just single guys not ready to settle down but wanting some tail,) then there's the 1% of guys who wouldn't give up when you tell them you're not interested; those guys need to be "socially removed" or whatever, I agree. However, I'm not intellectually dishonest enough to claim the system is fucked because of that 1% of stupid dicks in the world, I'm not going to hint that workplaces aren't "safe" for women because of those few asshats - who I can bet are asshats about everything, not just thinking all women are theirs for the taking.


You seem like a prude dear, no offence, and you're welcome to that opinion, but myself when a guy comments on my looks I take it for what it is, a compliment, rather than an offensive thing, much less some kind of "threat" or something. Life isn't all about you and your feels, sometimes you're gonna be uncomfortable and you have to deal with it like an adult - not a child who needs mommy and daddy to come "save" them... You can continue with the blinders on with your opinion that no one thinks about sex, but actual studies prove you wrong; even modern [post third-wave feminism] studies find that on average men think about sex around 19 times a day, women about 10 times a day - and if you think a pretty woman dressed up in a skirt suit, or a guy in a well tailored suit, doesn't set that shit off you're only fooling yourself. It doesn't even /matter/ what folks are wearing so much, it's biologically hard wired into "most" peoples brains - like I sleep nude because I have temp control issues (can't sweat and shit) my husband gets totally turned on if I put on a pair of undies because it's "hiding shit", it's the stupidest thing IMO, but that's where it is for him. Anyway, long trusted studies spit out that only 4% of men go by your "ideal" of not thinking about sex on a daily or weekly basis, so here again you are holding the world to the farthest extreme example of "idealism"...

I'm not saying we can't change what is "socially acceptable" however there needs to be a bit of reality, not this bullshit ideal that no one can /ever/ be offended in life (the office, on the streets, at the fucking bar, etc.) and everyone has to "shut up" because someone else might be offended. That is unrealistic in the shelter of fucking colleges, no way in hell its gonna work in the real world - regardless of if that's your utopia or not. Personally, I don't don't have a problem with crass "barbaric" men who speak up when they like something; I happen to like an alpha who's not afraid to say what is on his mind, to go after the shit he wants - that's a "real man" in my book. That's my personal opinion no doubt, but why the fuck should the standards be set to your personal opinions instead of mine? Why are your ideals 'better' than mine? That's the rub that we as a society have to get past, there's got to be a middle ground - not just /your/ personal opinion of what's acceptable and what is "harassment" "assault" "rape" - and not just mine either, it has to be a "standard" that we can all agree on to some degree and THEN we can "enforce" compliance via "punishment" for those newly defined "improper" behaviors.

I am sure I am a prude in your eyes but age and life experiences have a tendency to bring you back to the knowledge of why a person feels uncomfortable around game players such as you just admitted you are. Your computer life of being "a gamer" is not reality.

I was just using that as an example, no where did I say that was my "life" nor that it was "reality," but whatever, apparently your "age" and "life experience" blind you to adult conversation and discussion with people who do not share your opinion on things but have just as much right to their opinion as you. This smells a lot like modern liberal entitlement to me... maybe with a dash of third-wave feminism as well. To each their own. You want to be a victim of your own imaginary fears that every man that says anything about sex is trying to fuck you, that's on you, but don't be surprised when 'reality' doesn't conform to /your/ 'fantasy.'

Certainly I'm never going to advocate for men to "always" keep their hands to themselves, nor am I going to vote or push for any agenda that attempts to pretend that addressing 1% (or probably more like 0.5%) of the country is more important than the "innocence" of the rest. I wouldn't do it with the transgender bathroom issue, despite my 30 years of fighting for SSM in Alaska, and I'm not going to now support any agenda that attempts to say that /my/ personality, as a sexually charged alpha, and others like me who are "bolder" in how they pursue relationships, and who are more "open" about sex in general, should be shoved in the closet by prudish folks who think any thought of sex is somehow "wrong" - I've fought against that bullshit idea my entire life up here too; (respectfully because I do see the good in their teachings) defying the Christian strong-hold on the state.

 

[RodISHI]

Trying to stand up against the enablers of predators is extremely emotionally taxing and if those females do not have good people standing with them they are crushed under the weight of the false accusations and bs that follows complaint or taking a stand for truth. It is much better now than it was thirty and forty years ago but I don't think on a whole at this point there is any excuse for people who can help stand against abuse staying silent about it when it happens. If the abused do not speak up now when it happens or with more recent incidences they are assisting the enablers of abuses.

That doesn't really deflate my point; it is becoming clear that a rather large portion of women are, or at a minimum, "were" too emotionally weak to handle themselves without protections. Ironically those protections were that women stayed away from the cut-throat world of business, they were protected from other men; hell they had separate train cars in the way back (so the men could talk shit, and the women could gab, and so that the men would take the brunt of the impact in an accident.) 90% of the shit that feminism labels as "disrespectful" to women is actually the exact fucking opposite - but this is the age of being offended so idiots all over are actively turning over every stone to find anything that could remotely be considered offensive in some twisted way. But I digress on the subject of "progressive ideology inevitably leading to stupidity."


I do agree though, women should say something, right then, and perhaps even if /they/ are not offended at the time (when we're talking about abuse of power situations.) I made that mistake myself. My bosses husband (also a coworker and in a management position, though not /my/ manager) was all over me, I turned him down hard, repeatedly, but I ultimately had to move to a different district because he wouldn't give up. It didn't offend me, nor did he "rape or assault" me by even today's crazy standards, he was just persistent... He was always very respectful (charming even), but I wasn't interested in him, so ya know I never reported it, I just removed myself from the situation. Years later the guy went to jail for sleeping with the young teen (15-18 year old) employees he was supposed to be supervising. I kicked myself a bit after that, because I could have stopped them girls from getting involved with the guy (and his wife, cause she was in on it all) but at the time, it just didn't occur to me that I wasn't a "special" case (I was a pretty narc what does one expect heh) I didn't really think he was hitting on everyone... I didn't think he was pedo...

I cannot help but wonder how many of these #metoo women's /real/ story is like mine? Where the woman just blew it off for whatever reason. To bring it up now as an "accusation" is pretty shitty imo. Not saying we can't have a "cultural adjustment" where that's not the norm anymore - where it's reported immediately and stuff, but I'm not sure they're... being fully honest... or maybe not helping the cause... It's hard to explain, but it's like we're stuck in this hysteria atm that's deflating any actual good that might come out of this "movement"

Like we seriously need to have an adult discussion to define, or even redefine, what constitutes sexual assault and harassment... In the past it was kind of based on "malicious" intent... It's like, when I decided I wanted to sleep with my current husband, I didn't ask his permission like some pussy beta; I grabbed his ass and stuck my tongue down his throat - fully expecting that he was into me based on our flirting and shit prior. IF he had pushed me away or turned me down then it was no big deal, swing and a miss, nothing more. It's not like I'd have stalked him or pushed him into it if he wasn't interested. My intentions were not "malicious" in the slightest. Similarly like Bush patting the gal on the ass, the David-cop-a-feel joke is older than dirt, there's no "harm" intended in that, it's just playing around. I mean I get it if a gal doesn't want her ass touched, but how about being an adult and saying that you don't like it straight up - guaranteed 99% of guys would be like "no problem, sorry" because they didn't mean anything by it, didn't mean to upset the gal or anything. It's like when married guys joke about their "ball and chain" and how "shitty marriage is" - it's just a joke, ya know what I mean? Then there's the fruit loop shit like a guy complementing a woman is harassment, give me a fucking break... Look we're sexual creatures, even us women, we have sex on the brain all the time so we joke about it all the damn time - we have to respect that "reality" too, plus how's a guy and a girl gonna hook up if /everything/ that might get them into bed is considered rape, assault, or harassment? It's unrealistic and it ... cheapens the seriousness of the terms - like calling everyone a nazi and shit.

I'm just saying that there has to be an adult discussion about the "new" parameters of "acceptable" behavior, we can't just hold everyone to these new undisclosed standards 20 years down the road - and I don't see how we can have that kind of discussion when we're in this hysteria of #metoo... IDK the solution, but there has to be some realistic limits that somehow respects both the ideas that not all men are fucking pigs, and that some of us women /want/ a guy to be bold and "aggressive" in their pick up lines. There has to be a mutual respect and understanding, as well as discussion about what /women/ need to say or do or something if a guy catcalls them and that makes them uncomfortable - calling the police isn't the right response IMO, women need to say hey, don't do that - and men (likely already) can respect that that particular woman doesn't like it, no biggie and both move on with a better understanding of each other. A good thing ya know, a positive outcome.

I wasn't trying to deflate your point. Fact is I went through being one of the first female contractors years and years ago. All of us first ones to go there were extremely harassed. Out of six others I knew of in that exact same position only one was willing to try to stand up against it with me and she was slandered when she stood because one of her children had drowned in a terrible accident a few years previously. We could not have stood up with our voices if there had not been good men and women to stand with us in positions that could make a difference.

I agree hysteria isn't necessary but as far as I am concerned males and females need to keep their paws to themselves no matter who they are unless there is some kind of connection of beyond a doubt there that would be an obvious come-on. Maybe some think it is perfectly normal to act animalistic but I don't.

I'd be with Rod once in awhile at the local bar when he asked (pleaded with) me to come down and have a drink (his hobby at the time to get away from the hustle and bustle of work) with him and guys would be persistent even when I'd tell them "I am happily married not thank you" or "I'm perfectly content with my husband's attentions not interested have a good day." I'd get frustrated at the ones that persisted beyond reasonable that couldn't understand "happily married' and eventually spout off something like, "Maybe you should just have HIT ME tattooed to you forehead to cut out the bullshit so you won't be wasting other people's time". Rod even went to the extreme of having me wear a big diamond on my hand as a show of purchase for the one's in hick town that money seems to be the only language they understand where males and females still are backward enough to think love has a price of some sort. How would you feel if you were trying to support yourself and some guy starts spouting about how good your ass looks and what it may feel like to them (I have seen that a lot over the years and always knew its a good thing I didn't have to stay working as a waitress). Isn't stuff like that a bit too much and extremely rude. I mean is our society that stoogepid and ignorance so far propagated that it can't get past the fact that females have families to support too. Also how about an equipment operator hitting you with a backhoe boom because he doesn't think a female belongs on a construction site working to support her children too. Or the guy in an office where you work that tells you his wife knows he sleeps around so its okay if....

I used to have a few employees and even some professionals make comments from time to time Miss ........ you sure look mighty fine today or things of that nature which I don't consider harassment but then again I rarely dressed in nice casual clothes instead of sloppy work clothes for that same reason as I didn't want anyone getting the wrong idea. Females used to wrap wide bandages around their breast trying to flatten them out so males would get the wrong idea. That tells me that some males are too immature to be around females and the same goes for females if they are so totally messed up that all they can think about the opposite sex is the sex they could have with them and can't control their animalistic urges. My males dogs have had better etiquette around female bitches in heat than a lot of people seem to have today.

Catcalls I always thought were somewhat barbaric and may be harmless but then again there are too many idiots out there that would stop at just letting their shit fly out of their mouths. If their mouths are vile it is a good possibility their minds are too.

Perhaps you have been raised in a sexualized environment where sexualizing people is in every nook and cranny of society so that is what is on your mind all the time but I can assure that not everyone 'thinks about sex all the time'. There are a lot of other things in this world to see and learn about that both male and females discuss without anything sexual ever being inferred in the conversations. The way sexualization is constantly at the forefront of every venue out there it looks like the entire society is fully saturated with it all and it is just one big happy orgy. Facts are is there are a lot of miserable people out there pushing to keep this giant orgy going with shit like Viagra, abortions on demand and classes or workshops, etc. on how to feel good while doing........whatever type act it is with whoever where ever without any restraints or restrictions on their party time.

I was corporate America circa early 90s, a bit better than the 70s & 80s but yea a lot of guys thought I shouldn't have been in "their world." Thing is, so? I'm also a gamer, another area of the world that girls are not really "supposed" to be, they say I'm lying about being a chick when I trash them in pvp (player vs player). Again, so?

I think the part you're missing, and really all of the "defenders" are missing, but yet somehow saying you/tehy get, is that WE women make the choice to either be a victim or a survivor of "normal" sexually charged male/female interaction. A victim cries about being harassed and has emotional issues because a guy said "nice ass" to them, a survivor, who I argue can actually handle the situation and the job/field/whatever, laughs and tells them to fuck off (joking, semi-jokingly even) The victim carries around some bullshit, completely invented, irrational fear of being raped because a guy commented on them looking good today, rather than laughing it off and saying something along the lines of "Window shopping is free, but you can't afford it" or whatever smart ass comment (because men speak smart ass as a second language.) A victim feels that they need "protection," they need "help," and they need "punishments" for anyone who /dares/ to hit on them without their express permission. It's bullshit and unrealistic. That is part of the "adult conversation" I was talking about us, as a society, needing to have on the subject.

As for your personal persistent guy, and fuck off about guys hitting on you in the bar please - what the fuck do you think bars are for? finding dates woman, duh, its practically the entire fucking point of a bar AND getting drunk, shit.... Anyway, the persistent guy doing it at work sounds like a fucking asshole, I had one of those too as I noted. However, neither Steve, nor your guy are nothing like the vast, vast majority of the guys /I/ knew and had worked with over the past almost 3 decades. If I had to break it down, I'd say 90% of the guys I worked with were gentlemen and smart enough to keep their little head from controlling their mouths in the office, maybe 5-6% hit on me or other women (but in their defense here they were mostly trying to date these girls, not rape them, not assault them, not harass them, or even just fuck em and leave em, they were looking for "the one" for a wife etc.,) maybe 4-5% were looking for just sex (cheating on their wives? some yea, with their wives permission? some yes, some just single guys not ready to settle down but wanting some tail,) then there's the 1% of guys who wouldn't give up when you tell them you're not interested; those guys need to be "socially removed" or whatever, I agree. However, I'm not intellectually dishonest enough to claim the system is fucked because of that 1% of stupid dicks in the world, I'm not going to hint that workplaces aren't "safe" for women because of those few asshats - who I can bet are asshats about everything, not just thinking all women are theirs for the taking.


You seem like a prude dear, no offence, and you're welcome to that opinion, but myself when a guy comments on my looks I take it for what it is, a compliment, rather than an offensive thing, much less some kind of "threat" or something. Life isn't all about you and your feels, sometimes you're gonna be uncomfortable and you have to deal with it like an adult - not a child who needs mommy and daddy to come "save" them... You can continue with the blinders on with your opinion that no one thinks about sex, but actual studies prove you wrong; even modern [post third-wave feminism] studies find that on average men think about sex around 19 times a day, women about 10 times a day - and if you think a pretty woman dressed up in a skirt suit, or a guy in a well tailored suit, doesn't set that shit off you're only fooling yourself. It doesn't even /matter/ what folks are wearing so much, it's biologically hard wired into "most" peoples brains - like I sleep nude because I have temp control issues (can't sweat and shit) my husband gets totally turned on if I put on a pair of undies because it's "hiding shit", it's the stupidest thing IMO, but that's where it is for him. Anyway, long trusted studies spit out that only 4% of men go by your "ideal" of not thinking about sex on a daily or weekly basis, so here again you are holding the world to the farthest extreme example of "idealism"...

I'm not saying we can't change what is "socially acceptable" however there needs to be a bit of reality, not this bullshit ideal that no one can /ever/ be offended in life (the office, on the streets, at the fucking bar, etc.) and everyone has to "shut up" because someone else might be offended. That is unrealistic in the shelter of fucking colleges, no way in hell its gonna work in the real world - regardless of if that's your utopia or not. Personally, I don't don't have a problem with crass "barbaric" men who speak up when they like something; I happen to like an alpha who's not afraid to say what is on his mind, to go after the shit he wants - that's a "real man" in my book. That's my personal opinion no doubt, but why the fuck should the standards be set to your personal opinions instead of mine? Why are your ideals 'better' than mine? That's the rub that we as a society have to get past, there's got to be a middle ground - not just /your/ personal opinion of what's acceptable and what is "harassment" "assault" "rape" - and not just mine either, it has to be a "standard" that we can all agree on to some degree and THEN we can "enforce" compliance via "punishment" for those newly defined "improper" behaviors.

I am sure I am a prude in your eyes but age and life experiences have a tendency to bring you back to the knowledge of why a person feels uncomfortable around game players such as you just admitted you are. Your computer life of being "a gamer" is not reality.

I was just using that as an example, no where did I say that was my "life" nor that it was "reality," but whatever, apparently your "age" and "life experience" blind you to adult conversation and discussion with people who do not share your opinion on things but have just as much right to their opinion as you. This smells a lot like modern liberal entitlement to me... maybe with a dash of third-wave feminism as well. To each their own. You want to be a victim of your own imaginary fears that every man that says anything about sex is trying to fuck you, that's on you, but don't be surprised when 'reality' doesn't conform to /your/ 'fantasy.'

Certainly I'm never going to advocate for men to "always" keep their hands to themselves, nor am I going to vote or push for any agenda that attempts to pretend that addressing 1% (or probably more like 0.5%) of the country is more important than the "innocence" of the rest. I wouldn't do it with the transgender bathroom issue, despite my 30 years of fighting for SSM in Alaska, and I'm not going to now support any agenda that attempts to say that /my/ personality, as a sexually charged alpha, and others like me who are "bolder" in how they pursue relationships, and who are more "open" about sex in general, should be shoved in the closet by prudish folks who think any thought of sex is somehow "wrong" - I've fought against that bullshit idea my entire life up here too; (respectfully because I do see the good in their teachings) defying the Christian strong-hold on the state.

You have a lot of prattle and assumptions that you made having no clue about me or what my personal life is as I would never talk about what I do intimately online but like I said you have it all figured out because you are a "gamer". Piss off.

 

[EverCurious]

That doesn't really deflate my point; it is becoming clear that a rather large portion of women are, or at a minimum, "were" too emotionally weak to handle themselves without protections. Ironically those protections were that women stayed away from the cut-throat world of business, they were protected from other men; hell they had separate train cars in the way back (so the men could talk shit, and the women could gab, and so that the men would take the brunt of the impact in an accident.) 90% of the shit that feminism labels as "disrespectful" to women is actually the exact fucking opposite - but this is the age of being offended so idiots all over are actively turning over every stone to find anything that could remotely be considered offensive in some twisted way. But I digress on the subject of "progressive ideology inevitably leading to stupidity."


I do agree though, women should say something, right then, and perhaps even if /they/ are not offended at the time (when we're talking about abuse of power situations.) I made that mistake myself. My bosses husband (also a coworker and in a management position, though not /my/ manager) was all over me, I turned him down hard, repeatedly, but I ultimately had to move to a different district because he wouldn't give up. It didn't offend me, nor did he "rape or assault" me by even today's crazy standards, he was just persistent... He was always very respectful (charming even), but I wasn't interested in him, so ya know I never reported it, I just removed myself from the situation. Years later the guy went to jail for sleeping with the young teen (15-18 year old) employees he was supposed to be supervising. I kicked myself a bit after that, because I could have stopped them girls from getting involved with the guy (and his wife, cause she was in on it all) but at the time, it just didn't occur to me that I wasn't a "special" case (I was a pretty narc what does one expect heh) I didn't really think he was hitting on everyone... I didn't think he was pedo...

I cannot help but wonder how many of these #metoo women's /real/ story is like mine? Where the woman just blew it off for whatever reason. To bring it up now as an "accusation" is pretty shitty imo. Not saying we can't have a "cultural adjustment" where that's not the norm anymore - where it's reported immediately and stuff, but I'm not sure they're... being fully honest... or maybe not helping the cause... It's hard to explain, but it's like we're stuck in this hysteria atm that's deflating any actual good that might come out of this "movement"

Like we seriously need to have an adult discussion to define, or even redefine, what constitutes sexual assault and harassment... In the past it was kind of based on "malicious" intent... It's like, when I decided I wanted to sleep with my current husband, I didn't ask his permission like some pussy beta; I grabbed his ass and stuck my tongue down his throat - fully expecting that he was into me based on our flirting and shit prior. IF he had pushed me away or turned me down then it was no big deal, swing and a miss, nothing more. It's not like I'd have stalked him or pushed him into it if he wasn't interested. My intentions were not "malicious" in the slightest. Similarly like Bush patting the gal on the ass, the David-cop-a-feel joke is older than dirt, there's no "harm" intended in that, it's just playing around. I mean I get it if a gal doesn't want her ass touched, but how about being an adult and saying that you don't like it straight up - guaranteed 99% of guys would be like "no problem, sorry" because they didn't mean anything by it, didn't mean to upset the gal or anything. It's like when married guys joke about their "ball and chain" and how "shitty marriage is" - it's just a joke, ya know what I mean? Then there's the fruit loop shit like a guy complementing a woman is harassment, give me a fucking break... Look we're sexual creatures, even us women, we have sex on the brain all the time so we joke about it all the damn time - we have to respect that "reality" too, plus how's a guy and a girl gonna hook up if /everything/ that might get them into bed is considered rape, assault, or harassment? It's unrealistic and it ... cheapens the seriousness of the terms - like calling everyone a nazi and shit.

I'm just saying that there has to be an adult discussion about the "new" parameters of "acceptable" behavior, we can't just hold everyone to these new undisclosed standards 20 years down the road - and I don't see how we can have that kind of discussion when we're in this hysteria of #metoo... IDK the solution, but there has to be some realistic limits that somehow respects both the ideas that not all men are fucking pigs, and that some of us women /want/ a guy to be bold and "aggressive" in their pick up lines. There has to be a mutual respect and understanding, as well as discussion about what /women/ need to say or do or something if a guy catcalls them and that makes them uncomfortable - calling the police isn't the right response IMO, women need to say hey, don't do that - and men (likely already) can respect that that particular woman doesn't like it, no biggie and both move on with a better understanding of each other. A good thing ya know, a positive outcome.

I wasn't trying to deflate your point. Fact is I went through being one of the first female contractors years and years ago. All of us first ones to go there were extremely harassed. Out of six others I knew of in that exact same position only one was willing to try to stand up against it with me and she was slandered when she stood because one of her children had drowned in a terrible accident a few years previously. We could not have stood up with our voices if there had not been good men and women to stand with us in positions that could make a difference.

I agree hysteria isn't necessary but as far as I am concerned males and females need to keep their paws to themselves no matter who they are unless there is some kind of connection of beyond a doubt there that would be an obvious come-on. Maybe some think it is perfectly normal to act animalistic but I don't.

I'd be with Rod once in awhile at the local bar when he asked (pleaded with) me to come down and have a drink (his hobby at the time to get away from the hustle and bustle of work) with him and guys would be persistent even when I'd tell them "I am happily married not thank you" or "I'm perfectly content with my husband's attentions not interested have a good day." I'd get frustrated at the ones that persisted beyond reasonable that couldn't understand "happily married' and eventually spout off something like, "Maybe you should just have HIT ME tattooed to you forehead to cut out the bullshit so you won't be wasting other people's time". Rod even went to the extreme of having me wear a big diamond on my hand as a show of purchase for the one's in hick town that money seems to be the only language they understand where males and females still are backward enough to think love has a price of some sort. How would you feel if you were trying to support yourself and some guy starts spouting about how good your ass looks and what it may feel like to them (I have seen that a lot over the years and always knew its a good thing I didn't have to stay working as a waitress). Isn't stuff like that a bit too much and extremely rude. I mean is our society that stoogepid and ignorance so far propagated that it can't get past the fact that females have families to support too. Also how about an equipment operator hitting you with a backhoe boom because he doesn't think a female belongs on a construction site working to support her children too. Or the guy in an office where you work that tells you his wife knows he sleeps around so its okay if....

I used to have a few employees and even some professionals make comments from time to time Miss ........ you sure look mighty fine today or things of that nature which I don't consider harassment but then again I rarely dressed in nice casual clothes instead of sloppy work clothes for that same reason as I didn't want anyone getting the wrong idea. Females used to wrap wide bandages around their breast trying to flatten them out so males would get the wrong idea. That tells me that some males are too immature to be around females and the same goes for females if they are so totally messed up that all they can think about the opposite sex is the sex they could have with them and can't control their animalistic urges. My males dogs have had better etiquette around female bitches in heat than a lot of people seem to have today.

Catcalls I always thought were somewhat barbaric and may be harmless but then again there are too many idiots out there that would stop at just letting their shit fly out of their mouths. If their mouths are vile it is a good possibility their minds are too.

Perhaps you have been raised in a sexualized environment where sexualizing people is in every nook and cranny of society so that is what is on your mind all the time but I can assure that not everyone 'thinks about sex all the time'. There are a lot of other things in this world to see and learn about that both male and females discuss without anything sexual ever being inferred in the conversations. The way sexualization is constantly at the forefront of every venue out there it looks like the entire society is fully saturated with it all and it is just one big happy orgy. Facts are is there are a lot of miserable people out there pushing to keep this giant orgy going with shit like Viagra, abortions on demand and classes or workshops, etc. on how to feel good while doing........whatever type act it is with whoever where ever without any restraints or restrictions on their party time.

I was corporate America circa early 90s, a bit better than the 70s & 80s but yea a lot of guys thought I shouldn't have been in "their world." Thing is, so? I'm also a gamer, another area of the world that girls are not really "supposed" to be, they say I'm lying about being a chick when I trash them in pvp (player vs player). Again, so?

I think the part you're missing, and really all of the "defenders" are missing, but yet somehow saying you/tehy get, is that WE women make the choice to either be a victim or a survivor of "normal" sexually charged male/female interaction. A victim cries about being harassed and has emotional issues because a guy said "nice ass" to them, a survivor, who I argue can actually handle the situation and the job/field/whatever, laughs and tells them to fuck off (joking, semi-jokingly even) The victim carries around some bullshit, completely invented, irrational fear of being raped because a guy commented on them looking good today, rather than laughing it off and saying something along the lines of "Window shopping is free, but you can't afford it" or whatever smart ass comment (because men speak smart ass as a second language.) A victim feels that they need "protection," they need "help," and they need "punishments" for anyone who /dares/ to hit on them without their express permission. It's bullshit and unrealistic. That is part of the "adult conversation" I was talking about us, as a society, needing to have on the subject.

As for your personal persistent guy, and fuck off about guys hitting on you in the bar please - what the fuck do you think bars are for? finding dates woman, duh, its practically the entire fucking point of a bar AND getting drunk, shit.... Anyway, the persistent guy doing it at work sounds like a fucking asshole, I had one of those too as I noted. However, neither Steve, nor your guy are nothing like the vast, vast majority of the guys /I/ knew and had worked with over the past almost 3 decades. If I had to break it down, I'd say 90% of the guys I worked with were gentlemen and smart enough to keep their little head from controlling their mouths in the office, maybe 5-6% hit on me or other women (but in their defense here they were mostly trying to date these girls, not rape them, not assault them, not harass them, or even just fuck em and leave em, they were looking for "the one" for a wife etc.,) maybe 4-5% were looking for just sex (cheating on their wives? some yea, with their wives permission? some yes, some just single guys not ready to settle down but wanting some tail,) then there's the 1% of guys who wouldn't give up when you tell them you're not interested; those guys need to be "socially removed" or whatever, I agree. However, I'm not intellectually dishonest enough to claim the system is fucked because of that 1% of stupid dicks in the world, I'm not going to hint that workplaces aren't "safe" for women because of those few asshats - who I can bet are asshats about everything, not just thinking all women are theirs for the taking.


You seem like a prude dear, no offence, and you're welcome to that opinion, but myself when a guy comments on my looks I take it for what it is, a compliment, rather than an offensive thing, much less some kind of "threat" or something. Life isn't all about you and your feels, sometimes you're gonna be uncomfortable and you have to deal with it like an adult - not a child who needs mommy and daddy to come "save" them... You can continue with the blinders on with your opinion that no one thinks about sex, but actual studies prove you wrong; even modern [post third-wave feminism] studies find that on average men think about sex around 19 times a day, women about 10 times a day - and if you think a pretty woman dressed up in a skirt suit, or a guy in a well tailored suit, doesn't set that shit off you're only fooling yourself. It doesn't even /matter/ what folks are wearing so much, it's biologically hard wired into "most" peoples brains - like I sleep nude because I have temp control issues (can't sweat and shit) my husband gets totally turned on if I put on a pair of undies because it's "hiding shit", it's the stupidest thing IMO, but that's where it is for him. Anyway, long trusted studies spit out that only 4% of men go by your "ideal" of not thinking about sex on a daily or weekly basis, so here again you are holding the world to the farthest extreme example of "idealism"...

I'm not saying we can't change what is "socially acceptable" however there needs to be a bit of reality, not this bullshit ideal that no one can /ever/ be offended in life (the office, on the streets, at the fucking bar, etc.) and everyone has to "shut up" because someone else might be offended. That is unrealistic in the shelter of fucking colleges, no way in hell its gonna work in the real world - regardless of if that's your utopia or not. Personally, I don't don't have a problem with crass "barbaric" men who speak up when they like something; I happen to like an alpha who's not afraid to say what is on his mind, to go after the shit he wants - that's a "real man" in my book. That's my personal opinion no doubt, but why the fuck should the standards be set to your personal opinions instead of mine? Why are your ideals 'better' than mine? That's the rub that we as a society have to get past, there's got to be a middle ground - not just /your/ personal opinion of what's acceptable and what is "harassment" "assault" "rape" - and not just mine either, it has to be a "standard" that we can all agree on to some degree and THEN we can "enforce" compliance via "punishment" for those newly defined "improper" behaviors.

I am sure I am a prude in your eyes but age and life experiences have a tendency to bring you back to the knowledge of why a person feels uncomfortable around game players such as you just admitted you are. Your computer life of being "a gamer" is not reality.

I was just using that as an example, no where did I say that was my "life" nor that it was "reality," but whatever, apparently your "age" and "life experience" blind you to adult conversation and discussion with people who do not share your opinion on things but have just as much right to their opinion as you. This smells a lot like modern liberal entitlement to me... maybe with a dash of third-wave feminism as well. To each their own. You want to be a victim of your own imaginary fears that every man that says anything about sex is trying to fuck you, that's on you, but don't be surprised when 'reality' doesn't conform to /your/ 'fantasy.'

Certainly I'm never going to advocate for men to "always" keep their hands to themselves, nor am I going to vote or push for any agenda that attempts to pretend that addressing 1% (or probably more like 0.5%) of the country is more important than the "innocence" of the rest. I wouldn't do it with the transgender bathroom issue, despite my 30 years of fighting for SSM in Alaska, and I'm not going to now support any agenda that attempts to say that /my/ personality, as a sexually charged alpha, and others like me who are "bolder" in how they pursue relationships, and who are more "open" about sex in general, should be shoved in the closet by prudish folks who think any thought of sex is somehow "wrong" - I've fought against that bullshit idea my entire life up here too; (respectfully because I do see the good in their teachings) defying the Christian strong-hold on the state.

You have a lot of prattle and assumptions that you made having no clue about me or what my personal life is as I would never talk about what I do intimately online but like I said you have it all figured out because you are a "gamer". Piss off.

Ironic that you have boiled down my entire life to an off hand comment and now think you know anything about me, while bitching that I know nothing of you. LOL

Smells like modern liberal - find single sentence or word that is "offensive" and fly off the handle about it - refuse to discuss any other content in the post. AKA deflect and attack!

 

[RodISHI]

I wasn't trying to deflate your point. Fact is I went through being one of the first female contractors years and years ago. All of us first ones to go there were extremely harassed. Out of six others I knew of in that exact same position only one was willing to try to stand up against it with me and she was slandered when she stood because one of her children had drowned in a terrible accident a few years previously. We could not have stood up with our voices if there had not been good men and women to stand with us in positions that could make a difference.

I agree hysteria isn't necessary but as far as I am concerned males and females need to keep their paws to themselves no matter who they are unless there is some kind of connection of beyond a doubt there that would be an obvious come-on. Maybe some think it is perfectly normal to act animalistic but I don't.

I'd be with Rod once in awhile at the local bar when he asked (pleaded with) me to come down and have a drink (his hobby at the time to get away from the hustle and bustle of work) with him and guys would be persistent even when I'd tell them "I am happily married not thank you" or "I'm perfectly content with my husband's attentions not interested have a good day." I'd get frustrated at the ones that persisted beyond reasonable that couldn't understand "happily married' and eventually spout off something like, "Maybe you should just have HIT ME tattooed to you forehead to cut out the bullshit so you won't be wasting other people's time". Rod even went to the extreme of having me wear a big diamond on my hand as a show of purchase for the one's in hick town that money seems to be the only language they understand where males and females still are backward enough to think love has a price of some sort. How would you feel if you were trying to support yourself and some guy starts spouting about how good your ass looks and what it may feel like to them (I have seen that a lot over the years and always knew its a good thing I didn't have to stay working as a waitress). Isn't stuff like that a bit too much and extremely rude. I mean is our society that stoogepid and ignorance so far propagated that it can't get past the fact that females have families to support too. Also how about an equipment operator hitting you with a backhoe boom because he doesn't think a female belongs on a construction site working to support her children too. Or the guy in an office where you work that tells you his wife knows he sleeps around so its okay if....

I used to have a few employees and even some professionals make comments from time to time Miss ........ you sure look mighty fine today or things of that nature which I don't consider harassment but then again I rarely dressed in nice casual clothes instead of sloppy work clothes for that same reason as I didn't want anyone getting the wrong idea. Females used to wrap wide bandages around their breast trying to flatten them out so males would get the wrong idea. That tells me that some males are too immature to be around females and the same goes for females if they are so totally messed up that all they can think about the opposite sex is the sex they could have with them and can't control their animalistic urges. My males dogs have had better etiquette around female bitches in heat than a lot of people seem to have today.

Catcalls I always thought were somewhat barbaric and may be harmless but then again there are too many idiots out there that would stop at just letting their shit fly out of their mouths. If their mouths are vile it is a good possibility their minds are too.

Perhaps you have been raised in a sexualized environment where sexualizing people is in every nook and cranny of society so that is what is on your mind all the time but I can assure that not everyone 'thinks about sex all the time'. There are a lot of other things in this world to see and learn about that both male and females discuss without anything sexual ever being inferred in the conversations. The way sexualization is constantly at the forefront of every venue out there it looks like the entire society is fully saturated with it all and it is just one big happy orgy. Facts are is there are a lot of miserable people out there pushing to keep this giant orgy going with shit like Viagra, abortions on demand and classes or workshops, etc. on how to feel good while doing........whatever type act it is with whoever where ever without any restraints or restrictions on their party time.

I was corporate America circa early 90s, a bit better than the 70s & 80s but yea a lot of guys thought I shouldn't have been in "their world." Thing is, so? I'm also a gamer, another area of the world that girls are not really "supposed" to be, they say I'm lying about being a chick when I trash them in pvp (player vs player). Again, so?

I think the part you're missing, and really all of the "defenders" are missing, but yet somehow saying you/tehy get, is that WE women make the choice to either be a victim or a survivor of "normal" sexually charged male/female interaction. A victim cries about being harassed and has emotional issues because a guy said "nice ass" to them, a survivor, who I argue can actually handle the situation and the job/field/whatever, laughs and tells them to fuck off (joking, semi-jokingly even) The victim carries around some bullshit, completely invented, irrational fear of being raped because a guy commented on them looking good today, rather than laughing it off and saying something along the lines of "Window shopping is free, but you can't afford it" or whatever smart ass comment (because men speak smart ass as a second language.) A victim feels that they need "protection," they need "help," and they need "punishments" for anyone who /dares/ to hit on them without their express permission. It's bullshit and unrealistic. That is part of the "adult conversation" I was talking about us, as a society, needing to have on the subject.

As for your personal persistent guy, and fuck off about guys hitting on you in the bar please - what the fuck do you think bars are for? finding dates woman, duh, its practically the entire fucking point of a bar AND getting drunk, shit.... Anyway, the persistent guy doing it at work sounds like a fucking asshole, I had one of those too as I noted. However, neither Steve, nor your guy are nothing like the vast, vast majority of the guys /I/ knew and had worked with over the past almost 3 decades. If I had to break it down, I'd say 90% of the guys I worked with were gentlemen and smart enough to keep their little head from controlling their mouths in the office, maybe 5-6% hit on me or other women (but in their defense here they were mostly trying to date these girls, not rape them, not assault them, not harass them, or even just fuck em and leave em, they were looking for "the one" for a wife etc.,) maybe 4-5% were looking for just sex (cheating on their wives? some yea, with their wives permission? some yes, some just single guys not ready to settle down but wanting some tail,) then there's the 1% of guys who wouldn't give up when you tell them you're not interested; those guys need to be "socially removed" or whatever, I agree. However, I'm not intellectually dishonest enough to claim the system is fucked because of that 1% of stupid dicks in the world, I'm not going to hint that workplaces aren't "safe" for women because of those few asshats - who I can bet are asshats about everything, not just thinking all women are theirs for the taking.


You seem like a prude dear, no offence, and you're welcome to that opinion, but myself when a guy comments on my looks I take it for what it is, a compliment, rather than an offensive thing, much less some kind of "threat" or something. Life isn't all about you and your feels, sometimes you're gonna be uncomfortable and you have to deal with it like an adult - not a child who needs mommy and daddy to come "save" them... You can continue with the blinders on with your opinion that no one thinks about sex, but actual studies prove you wrong; even modern [post third-wave feminism] studies find that on average men think about sex around 19 times a day, women about 10 times a day - and if you think a pretty woman dressed up in a skirt suit, or a guy in a well tailored suit, doesn't set that shit off you're only fooling yourself. It doesn't even /matter/ what folks are wearing so much, it's biologically hard wired into "most" peoples brains - like I sleep nude because I have temp control issues (can't sweat and shit) my husband gets totally turned on if I put on a pair of undies because it's "hiding shit", it's the stupidest thing IMO, but that's where it is for him. Anyway, long trusted studies spit out that only 4% of men go by your "ideal" of not thinking about sex on a daily or weekly basis, so here again you are holding the world to the farthest extreme example of "idealism"...

I'm not saying we can't change what is "socially acceptable" however there needs to be a bit of reality, not this bullshit ideal that no one can /ever/ be offended in life (the office, on the streets, at the fucking bar, etc.) and everyone has to "shut up" because someone else might be offended. That is unrealistic in the shelter of fucking colleges, no way in hell its gonna work in the real world - regardless of if that's your utopia or not. Personally, I don't don't have a problem with crass "barbaric" men who speak up when they like something; I happen to like an alpha who's not afraid to say what is on his mind, to go after the shit he wants - that's a "real man" in my book. That's my personal opinion no doubt, but why the fuck should the standards be set to your personal opinions instead of mine? Why are your ideals 'better' than mine? That's the rub that we as a society have to get past, there's got to be a middle ground - not just /your/ personal opinion of what's acceptable and what is "harassment" "assault" "rape" - and not just mine either, it has to be a "standard" that we can all agree on to some degree and THEN we can "enforce" compliance via "punishment" for those newly defined "improper" behaviors.

I am sure I am a prude in your eyes but age and life experiences have a tendency to bring you back to the knowledge of why a person feels uncomfortable around game players such as you just admitted you are. Your computer life of being "a gamer" is not reality.

I was just using that as an example, no where did I say that was my "life" nor that it was "reality," but whatever, apparently your "age" and "life experience" blind you to adult conversation and discussion with people who do not share your opinion on things but have just as much right to their opinion as you. This smells a lot like modern liberal entitlement to me... maybe with a dash of third-wave feminism as well. To each their own. You want to be a victim of your own imaginary fears that every man that says anything about sex is trying to fuck you, that's on you, but don't be surprised when 'reality' doesn't conform to /your/ 'fantasy.'

Certainly I'm never going to advocate for men to "always" keep their hands to themselves, nor am I going to vote or push for any agenda that attempts to pretend that addressing 1% (or probably more like 0.5%) of the country is more important than the "innocence" of the rest. I wouldn't do it with the transgender bathroom issue, despite my 30 years of fighting for SSM in Alaska, and I'm not going to now support any agenda that attempts to say that /my/ personality, as a sexually charged alpha, and others like me who are "bolder" in how they pursue relationships, and who are more "open" about sex in general, should be shoved in the closet by prudish folks who think any thought of sex is somehow "wrong" - I've fought against that bullshit idea my entire life up here too; (respectfully because I do see the good in their teachings) defying the Christian strong-hold on the state.

You have a lot of prattle and assumptions that you made having no clue about me or what my personal life is as I would never talk about what I do intimately online but like I said you have it all figured out because you are a "gamer". Piss off.

Ironic that you have boiled down my entire life to an off hand comment and now think you know anything about me, while bitching that I know nothing of you. LOL

Smells like modern liberal - find single sentence or word that is "offensive" and fly off the handle about it - refuse to discuss any other content in the post. AKA deflect and attack!

No you did that with your diatribe and you showed you are not worth having a conversation with when you did it. Twist your chit wit someone else as I am not interested.

 

[EverCurious]

I was corporate America circa early 90s, a bit better than the 70s & 80s but yea a lot of guys thought I shouldn't have been in "their world." Thing is, so? I'm also a gamer, another area of the world that girls are not really "supposed" to be, they say I'm lying about being a chick when I trash them in pvp (player vs player). Again, so?

I think the part you're missing, and really all of the "defenders" are missing, but yet somehow saying you/tehy get, is that WE women make the choice to either be a victim or a survivor of "normal" sexually charged male/female interaction. A victim cries about being harassed and has emotional issues because a guy said "nice ass" to them, a survivor, who I argue can actually handle the situation and the job/field/whatever, laughs and tells them to fuck off (joking, semi-jokingly even) The victim carries around some bullshit, completely invented, irrational fear of being raped because a guy commented on them looking good today, rather than laughing it off and saying something along the lines of "Window shopping is free, but you can't afford it" or whatever smart ass comment (because men speak smart ass as a second language.) A victim feels that they need "protection," they need "help," and they need "punishments" for anyone who /dares/ to hit on them without their express permission. It's bullshit and unrealistic. That is part of the "adult conversation" I was talking about us, as a society, needing to have on the subject.

As for your personal persistent guy, and fuck off about guys hitting on you in the bar please - what the fuck do you think bars are for? finding dates woman, duh, its practically the entire fucking point of a bar AND getting drunk, shit.... Anyway, the persistent guy doing it at work sounds like a fucking asshole, I had one of those too as I noted. However, neither Steve, nor your guy are nothing like the vast, vast majority of the guys /I/ knew and had worked with over the past almost 3 decades. If I had to break it down, I'd say 90% of the guys I worked with were gentlemen and smart enough to keep their little head from controlling their mouths in the office, maybe 5-6% hit on me or other women (but in their defense here they were mostly trying to date these girls, not rape them, not assault them, not harass them, or even just fuck em and leave em, they were looking for "the one" for a wife etc.,) maybe 4-5% were looking for just sex (cheating on their wives? some yea, with their wives permission? some yes, some just single guys not ready to settle down but wanting some tail,) then there's the 1% of guys who wouldn't give up when you tell them you're not interested; those guys need to be "socially removed" or whatever, I agree. However, I'm not intellectually dishonest enough to claim the system is fucked because of that 1% of stupid dicks in the world, I'm not going to hint that workplaces aren't "safe" for women because of those few asshats - who I can bet are asshats about everything, not just thinking all women are theirs for the taking.


You seem like a prude dear, no offence, and you're welcome to that opinion, but myself when a guy comments on my looks I take it for what it is, a compliment, rather than an offensive thing, much less some kind of "threat" or something. Life isn't all about you and your feels, sometimes you're gonna be uncomfortable and you have to deal with it like an adult - not a child who needs mommy and daddy to come "save" them... You can continue with the blinders on with your opinion that no one thinks about sex, but actual studies prove you wrong; even modern [post third-wave feminism] studies find that on average men think about sex around 19 times a day, women about 10 times a day - and if you think a pretty woman dressed up in a skirt suit, or a guy in a well tailored suit, doesn't set that shit off you're only fooling yourself. It doesn't even /matter/ what folks are wearing so much, it's biologically hard wired into "most" peoples brains - like I sleep nude because I have temp control issues (can't sweat and shit) my husband gets totally turned on if I put on a pair of undies because it's "hiding shit", it's the stupidest thing IMO, but that's where it is for him. Anyway, long trusted studies spit out that only 4% of men go by your "ideal" of not thinking about sex on a daily or weekly basis, so here again you are holding the world to the farthest extreme example of "idealism"...

I'm not saying we can't change what is "socially acceptable" however there needs to be a bit of reality, not this bullshit ideal that no one can /ever/ be offended in life (the office, on the streets, at the fucking bar, etc.) and everyone has to "shut up" because someone else might be offended. That is unrealistic in the shelter of fucking colleges, no way in hell its gonna work in the real world - regardless of if that's your utopia or not. Personally, I don't don't have a problem with crass "barbaric" men who speak up when they like something; I happen to like an alpha who's not afraid to say what is on his mind, to go after the shit he wants - that's a "real man" in my book. That's my personal opinion no doubt, but why the fuck should the standards be set to your personal opinions instead of mine? Why are your ideals 'better' than mine? That's the rub that we as a society have to get past, there's got to be a middle ground - not just /your/ personal opinion of what's acceptable and what is "harassment" "assault" "rape" - and not just mine either, it has to be a "standard" that we can all agree on to some degree and THEN we can "enforce" compliance via "punishment" for those newly defined "improper" behaviors.

I am sure I am a prude in your eyes but age and life experiences have a tendency to bring you back to the knowledge of why a person feels uncomfortable around game players such as you just admitted you are. Your computer life of being "a gamer" is not reality.

I was just using that as an example, no where did I say that was my "life" nor that it was "reality," but whatever, apparently your "age" and "life experience" blind you to adult conversation and discussion with people who do not share your opinion on things but have just as much right to their opinion as you. This smells a lot like modern liberal entitlement to me... maybe with a dash of third-wave feminism as well. To each their own. You want to be a victim of your own imaginary fears that every man that says anything about sex is trying to fuck you, that's on you, but don't be surprised when 'reality' doesn't conform to /your/ 'fantasy.'

Certainly I'm never going to advocate for men to "always" keep their hands to themselves, nor am I going to vote or push for any agenda that attempts to pretend that addressing 1% (or probably more like 0.5%) of the country is more important than the "innocence" of the rest. I wouldn't do it with the transgender bathroom issue, despite my 30 years of fighting for SSM in Alaska, and I'm not going to now support any agenda that attempts to say that /my/ personality, as a sexually charged alpha, and others like me who are "bolder" in how they pursue relationships, and who are more "open" about sex in general, should be shoved in the closet by prudish folks who think any thought of sex is somehow "wrong" - I've fought against that bullshit idea my entire life up here too; (respectfully because I do see the good in their teachings) defying the Christian strong-hold on the state.

You have a lot of prattle and assumptions that you made having no clue about me or what my personal life is as I would never talk about what I do intimately online but like I said you have it all figured out because you are a "gamer". Piss off.

Ironic that you have boiled down my entire life to an off hand comment and now think you know anything about me, while bitching that I know nothing of you. LOL

Smells like modern liberal - find single sentence or word that is "offensive" and fly off the handle about it - refuse to discuss any other content in the post. AKA deflect and attack!

No you did that with your diatribe and you showed you are not worth having a conversation with when you did it. Twist your chit wit someone else as I am not interested.

Your inability to have an adult discussion with an alternative viewpoint is quite telling. Your modern liberal entitled elitism smell is highly offensive to me, JS.

Whenever ya wanna stop replying do feel free, but if you continue to attack me I will continue to respond in kind; that's just how us alpha bitch non-victims roll.

 

[hadit]

The question I have is "WHY?" ESPECIALLY kept hidden / secret by WOMEN?!

Yes, I am not surprised you blame the victims.

At all.

Not blaming the victims, blaming those around the victims who knew what was going on and said/did nothing. By their silence/inaction, they fed the impression the victims had that speaking out would ruin their lives for nothing.