School drops the Pledge of Allegiance

[Taomon]

You are anti-American because you're ashamed of the GOOD things we've done, and refuse to see the good.
You are anti-American because you think Americans are terrorists and don't mind when they are targeted and killed by their enemies.

And please don't even get me started on the whole "Noble People" thing. What a moron. There is no such thing. The British are "noble people". The Germans are "noble people". The Millers in Podunk, Idaho are "noble people". Nobody is noble because of their GENETICS, you anti-american, racist idiot.

Wow, that is not a very Christian attitude to have.

 

[Taomon]

Yeah, that's the way to build an apreciation for your country. There is a system to running a civilization, and when you raise kids telling them that their ancestors were horrible people and that the blood running in their veins stems from a genocidal era, I'm sure it will only bring out the worst in society. Nobody learns these things as children..., it's the same as not letting your kid watch a XXX film. History is rated X Taomon, and as long as you teach your children (when they're old enough) how history goes, then you don't have a problem. But changing elementary and junior high curricula is a little far-fetched and too politically correct. Every civilization, just like the human race itself, has a system set on self-preservation. If you raise the children of the nation to hate the things it's done, they'll all defect to another nation, or destroy the one they live in. I think the system is fine. Basic history is taught in the lower levels, and deep history is taught at the higher levels. The problem is that teachers are required to teach curricula that does not allow them to get into debth. Try teaching 200,000 + years in 187 days and then expect them to pass a standardized tests. Curricula is fine, but it needs to be spread out. And the really bad problem, is that most schools now days are pushing math and science and leaving Social Studies on the back-burner...

So continue to lie to the children? Japan and China doesn't seem to have a problem but we do? It's because we are lazy. Corporate America and the government do not want us to be too smart, just smart enough to work in production.

But your point about standardized tests, why do we need them again? Accountability? Everyone learns differently and we nee to cater to those differences, not punish the children and the schools because there is a disconnect.

 

[Taomon]

Some people just have to fight authority at every turn, regardless of whether something's a big deal or not. Unfortunately, they *indoctrinate* their children to do the same so they spend their lives tilting windmills instead of choosing their battles.

Oh I see. So I am fighting imaginary monsters Jillian? You don't see a problem with enforcing a Pledge of Allegiance without giving the true history of it to the children so they understand what they are saying? There is an implied threat as well, ask any 5th grader (I have), if they do not say it they believe they will get into trouble. So the children do not have a choice.

Are those the principals that our founding fathers wanted instilled in our children? Are those the principals that we must all blindly be proud of?

And I take offense to your insinuation that I am teaching my children to hate authority for the sake of hating authority. You don't know me nor my family so I will kindly ask that you refrain from commenting on us personally.

 

[indago]

Considering the term allegiance, and the hierarchical relationship between the people, the State, and the federal government, as recorded in Article Ten of the Bill of Rights, the pledge of allegiance to the flag, and to the United States, should be abolished. All who work for government should be required, every morning, to pledge their allegiance to the people whom they serve; and to reaffirm their oath to uphold the Constitution. This would be a daily reminder of their status, and their servile position. It is predictable that their attitude would change.

 

[editec]

Let's deconstruct the pledge including the changes that have been made it, just to ask ourselves what it really means shall we?

We are demanding that our kids bind themselves (intellectually or emotionally) to THIS country.

They are KIDS, let's remember, but we are forcing them to swear an OATH loooooooog before they understand the what they are really doing.

We are demanding that they recite a pledge that few of them really understand (at least in the first four or five years of school) every day.


And that, it could be argued, is a psychological conditioning (AKA brain washing).

Constantly repeating something -- even something you don't really understand -- still does have an effect on you... no matter how old you are. Even more so if you're repeating the same thing as a child.

Constantly repeating "facts" like:

the Republic for which it stands: one Nation, under God indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

is propagandizing and psychological conditioning, too


Understanding the above, then one is probably likely to ask: Is this a psychological condition that we WANT to put our children in?

I pose the above as a question because it IS debatable.

There are good arguments for why we should do this, and equally good arguments for why we should NOT do this to CHILDREN, I think.

So let's look at how the pledge has changed over the years, because that really shows us that we decided to change the content of that conditioning.


1892 to 1923

“I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.”

This is an oath of allegiance and its purpose is really what?

Note the words "REPUBLIC" and "INDIVISIBLE"?

Why do you all suppose that those word are there? (Hint...to remind people that the South didn't have the RIGHT to leave the union perhaps?)

So this is MORE than a just an OATH allegiance to the Republic, it is ALSO hammering into the young minds that the STATES do not have the RIGHT to succeed from that union that formed the REPUBLIC.


Now note the text of the pledge as it changed again...

1923 to 1954
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

Why did they add words "THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" and in effect diminish the value of the word REPUBLIC?

I really don't know why. Perhaps it is meaningless...but I doubt that. This is sotto voce jingoism.

I'm actually not sure that was such a good idea. Maybe I'm just partial to telling kids that we live in a Republic because I think THAT is more important than the name of the Republic. It's a debatable point.

Finally the last change..

1954 to Present
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation, under God indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

"one nation"

Not 50 states, one nation)

"Under GOD"

It is? Okay if you say so, and if I have to say so every day, that MUST be true, right? It is if you've been saying it hundreds of times a year since you were five, it is. Brain washing.

indivisible"

No states can leave the UNITED states of AMERICA, folks. There it is AGAIN

"with liberty and justice for all"

Come on now. We all know that really isn't the case. But hey, maybe that's just our way of telling kids that's what we'd like? that is the least offensive thing I can say about making kids repeat what is essentially a big fat LIE every day.


The pledge of allegiance is a mantra, a psychological tool to brainwash or indoctrinate our children.

We do this to them long before they can KNOW anything about what it is they are being asked to accept as FACTS.

1. They owe alliance to:

the United States

A republic

indivisible

UNDER GOD

Which entitles them to liberty and justice. (kinda)

FWIW, I LIKE the pledge.

I also love my country.

Perhaps the fact that I had to repeat that mantra every day I was in school might explain WHY I love this nation warts and all, as much as I do.

Certainly it must be PART of the reason I feel such an affection for this nation which I know perfectly well doesn't offer LIBERTY and JUSTICE for all.

 

[indago]

editec has edicted:

Perhaps the fact that I had to repeat that mantra every day I was in school might explain WHY I love this nation warts and all, as much as I do.

Certainly it must be PART of the reason I feel such an affection for this nation which I know perfectly well doesn't offer LIBERTY and JUSTICE for all.

You are saying, then, that ROTE has created "an affection for this nation", adding to this the fact that this nation "doesn't offer LIBERTY and JUSTICE for all"?

 

[editec]

You are saying, then, that ROTE has created "an affection for this nation", adding to this the fact that this nation "doesn't offer LIBERTY and JUSTICE for all"?

Yes, that is essantially what I am saying.

Psychological conditioning by rote repeating of a statements does condition the mind to accept the truth of whatever has been repeated.

This is not some conspiriacy theory, this is a well known fact of human psychology.

That is exactly why corporations spend billions on advertising, too.

Same basic principle.

Psychological conditioning by rote exposure is a highly effective tool for marketing toothpaste, or patriotism.

 

[Taomon]

Let's deconstruct the pledge including the changes that have been made it, just to ask ourselves what it really means shall we?

We are demanding that our kids bind themselves (intellectually or emotionally) to THIS country.

They are KIDS, let's remember, but we are forcing them to swear an OATH loooooooog before they understand the what they are really doing.

We are demanding that they recite a pledge that few of them really understand (at least in the first four or five years of school) every day.


And that, it could be argued, is a psychological conditioning (AKA brain washing).

Constantly repeating something -- even something you don't really understand -- still does have an effect on you... no matter how old you are. Even more so if you're repeating the same thing as a child.

Constantly repeating "facts" like:

the Republic for which it stands: one Nation, under God indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

is propagandizing and psychological conditioning, too


Understanding the above, then one is probably likely to ask: Is this a psychological condition that we WANT to put our children in?

I pose the above as a question because it IS debatable.

There are good arguments for why we should do this, and equally good arguments for why we should NOT do this to CHILDREN, I think.

So let's look at how the pledge has changed over the years, because that really shows us that we decided to change the content of that conditioning.


1892 to 1923


This is an oath of allegiance and its purpose is really what?

Note the words "REPUBLIC" and "INDIVISIBLE"?

Why do you all suppose that those word are there? (Hint...to remind people that the South didn't have the RIGHT to leave the union perhaps?)

So this is MORE than a just an OATH allegiance to the Republic, it is ALSO hammering into the young minds that the STATES do not have the RIGHT to succeed from that union that formed the REPUBLIC.


Now note the text of the pledge as it changed again...



Why did they add words "THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" and in effect diminish the value of the word REPUBLIC?

I really don't know why. Perhaps it is meaningless...but I doubt that. This is sotto voce jingoism.

I'm actually not sure that was such a good idea. Maybe I'm just partial to telling kids that we live in a Republic because I think THAT is more important than the name of the Republic. It's a debatable point.

Finally the last change..




"one nation"

Not 50 states, one nation)

"Under GOD"

It is? Okay if you say so, and if I have to say so every day, that MUST be true, right? It is if you've been saying it hundreds of times a year since you were five, it is. Brain washing.

indivisible"

No states can leave the UNITED states of AMERICA, folks. There it is AGAIN

"with liberty and justice for all"

Come on now. We all know that really isn't the case. But hey, maybe that's just our way of telling kids that's what we'd like? that is the least offensive thing I can say about making kids repeat what is essentially a big fat LIE every day.


The pledge of allegiance is a mantra, a psychological tool to brainwash or indoctrinate our children.

We do this to them long before they can KNOW anything about what it is they are being asked to accept as FACTS.

1. They owe alliance to:

the United States

A republic

indivisible

UNDER GOD

Which entitles them to liberty and justice. (kinda)

FWIW, I LIKE the pledge.

I also love my country.

Perhaps the fact that I had to repeat that mantra every day I was in school might explain WHY I love this nation warts and all, as much as I do.

Certainly it must be PART of the reason I feel such an affection for this nation which I know perfectly well doesn't offer LIBERTY and JUSTICE for all.

 

[Abelian Sea]

I would have a problem with the pledge ritual if it were either harmful or intense.

It is certainly conditioning. But that is not inherently a bad thing. Kids need some conditioning to grow into even half-decent adults. Every human society indoctrinates to some exent; it's natural and it's necessary for the long term stability of social institutions.

Intense, highly coersive conditioning rankles. It's debasing. The pledge ritual, though, is extremely mild; it is neither strenuous nor humiliating. And it is not draconically enforced, at least not that I've heard of or experienced. Sure you get in trouble if you're an ass about it, but you always get in trouble for being disruptive in school; quietly not participating will get you privately talked to but not punished. It is also trivially easy to avoid saying the pledge without drawing attention to yourself; just move your lips and mumble.

And what ideas is the pledge conditioning kids to accept? Loyalty to their country, the unity of that country, monotheistic piety, and the notion that their country is just and free.

Loyalty: Blind loyalty is unpalatable, but most young kids are in no position to make a well-considered decision about which country they'd most like to support, or whether to support either anarchy or some kind of one-world-goverment-ism. They're also not inclined to put much thought into the matter; they're kids, they're way more interested in their personal lives than such abstract considerations. In other words, they are blind to begin with, and it will take them years to accumulate the knowledge and experience necessary to think critically and well about it (and those that are sophisticated enough to start doing so in elemenetary school are also sophisticated enough to see through the pledge ritual like a plane of glass, and either dance around it or really mean it). So these kids are going to be blindly loyal, blindly indifferent, or blindly rebellious. What's the harm in having them start out as loyal?

Unity: It's a big country; most states are the natural size of nations, and there are noticeable differences between them. The idea that they're truly all one nation bears some repeating.

Piety: This one is odd among the secularism of public schools, and, ostensibly, government in general; I do find this part slightly objectionable as it makes my "wall of seperation" senses tingle. But culturally this is an extremely religious nation, and it's good for even athiest kids to learn (1) there is, as a practical matter, a hell of a lot of God in their government, and (2) how to live with tendrils of religious faith in their public ceremonies. For the kids of religious families it's all gravy. I wouldn't mind seeing this part go but I don't think its terribly harmful.

Liberty and Justice: "For all" is a stretch of course (no system's perfect), but these are exactly the things this country was mainly meant to facilitate, and, I think, excellent ideals to turn young minds towards. (when I was a kid, this is that part of the pledge where I felt a swell of pride - insofar as my country upholds these ideals - and commitment - inasmuch as I wanted it to better at upholding them and realizing that my just-sworn allegiance means that it's partially my job to see that it does)

 

[editec]

It is certainly conditioning. But that is not inherently a bad thing. Kids need some conditioning to grow into even half-decent adults. Every human society indoctrinates to some exent; it's natural and it's necessary for the long term stability of social institutions.

Yup. Much of what we do to our children (consciously or unconsiously) is conditioning them.

so the question obviously isn't should we instill them with values and beliefs, but what values and beliefs should we impose on their young minds.

The pledge ritual, though, is extremely mild; it is neither strenuous nor humiliating. And it is not draconically enforced, at least not that I've heard of or experienced

Agreed.

Loyalty: Blind loyalty is unpalatable,

You betcha!

but most young kids are in no position to make a well-considered decision about which country they'd most like to support, or whether to support either anarchy or some kind of one-world-goverment-ism. They're also not inclined to put much thought into the matter; they're kids, they're way more interested in their personal lives than such abstract considerations. In other words, they are blind to begin with, and it will take them years to accumulate the knowledge and experience necessary to think critically and well about it (and those that are sophisticated enough to start doing so in elemenetary school are also sophisticated enough to see through the pledge ritual like a plane of glass, and either dance around it or really mean it). So these kids are going to be blindly loyal, blindly indifferent, or blindly rebellious.

Insightful.

What's the harm in having them start out as loyal?

Again, agreed. It probably is far preferable to make young kids think their world is not a place filled with conflicting opinions.. at least to start out.

And since the pledge is fairly mild stuff, and not too dogmatic, the argument might be made that is is actually beneficial to them to understand that they are citizens of SOMETHING called a republic, even if they aren't ready to appreciate what that really means.

Great retort, Abelian.

You clearly understood where I was going with my musings.

 

[BrianH]

So continue to lie to the children? Japan and China doesn't seem to have a problem but we do? It's because we are lazy. Corporate America and the government do not want us to be too smart, just smart enough to work in production.But your point about standardized tests, why do we need them again? Accountability? Everyone learns differently and we nee to cater to those differences, not punish the children and the schools because there is a disconnect.

Dude you have a comprehension problem.** I don't agree with standardized testing to the level that it's being abused in today's school system.* But, you do have to be accountable for what you learn, whether you have different way of learning or not...correct.* Do you think that teachers should just blurt out information and expect that the students understand and never test them on it?* The curriculum is not broken, but it's relationship to time given is, this is what needs fixing. They expect you to teach 4 million years of World History in 187 days....good luck getting deep into the specifics of that....And let us do show the X rated version of history to 5th graders.* I'm sure they'd love to see an Arabs head blown off....Maybe you are for showing atrocities, but it's not appropriate until the students are old enough to understand them...* Soldiers (who have been trained extensively) have problem with seeing such things, and you want to teach and show this to kids??? * The actual information the kids learn is fine, but the time allowed for teaching such matter is what needs a change. If more time is allowed to get deeper into events, then one could discuss events in more detail. But since time is so constrained, would you rather say...."the U.S. expanded to the Pacific"....or "The U.S. murdered all of the Indians and killed women and children and took their land, this is why we are hear children. ALl of your ancestors are murders and you're related to them. Let's move on now..." Can you imagine the kind of kids you're going to impress?? The curricula is fine, but more time is needed to get more into detail about historical events.

 

[Anguille]

PORTLAND, Ore. - The exclusion of the Pledge of Allegiance from a southwest Portland elementary school's ceremony has proved upsetting for a local mom.

Departing fifth-graders at Capitol Hill Elementary usually open their promotion ceremony with the Pledge of Allegiance but not this year.


KATU tried repeatedly to talk with Principal Pam Wilson but got no results. However, in an e-mail response to Reese's questions, she explained the pledge was removed "out of respect for the diversity of religious faiths."


Local mom concerned after school drops the Pledge of Allegiance | KATU.com - Portland, Oregon | News


I didnt know the Pledge of Allegiance was a pledge to ANY religion?

It wasn't till Eisenhower messed with it.

 

[eots]

how about we have students read the bill of rights and the Constitution every morning.........oh wait a minute ...that might cause dissent ...never mind

 

[Anguille]

how about we have students read the bill of rights and the Constitution every morning.........oh wait a minute ...that might cause dissent ...never mind

It would. More students would realize that the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional and being good citizens, they would refuse to say it.

 

[editec]

how about we have students read the bill of rights and the Constitution every morning.........oh wait a minute ...that might cause dissent ...never mind

Maybe not the whole damned thing in one fell swoop but parts of it.

I like this idea, to be honest.