Sanders: Universal Healthcare and Free College Aren’t Radical Ideas, They Are ‘Human Rights’

[dblack]

Let's also pretend that it has something to do with Somalia. You seem to think you're making a point of some kind.

Are you telling me that these folks aren't libertarian?

No, I'm telling you that it has nothing to do with the claim that Somalia is "libertarian paradise".

You didn't even know it came from a libertarian. You knew nothing about it. You know nothing about the other libertarians. You are unwilling or unable to see how this works in action. You waste my time. You hand me a platform. No true Scotsman. Your brand of Libertarianism is so much different.

Incidentally, I was a libertarian. You're platform says Somalia is a libertarian paradise. Do not waste my time.

It's your time to with as you wish. But apart from claims about what someone else says, you've failed to show how Somalia proves anything at all about libertarian policies. No mainstream libertarians in the US are calling for abolishing the legislature.

It isn't necessary for me to do anything. It's like an entire conversation that is over your head while you play no true Scotsman.

You can't handle this.

Good to hear. I'll continue to call out the Somalia horseshit for what is, and explain why.

 

[Disir]

You don't have a valid explanation. I will remind you of this every time I come across it.

 

[Andylusion]

Bernie is correct.

The US has the most expensive healthcare system in the world. It is 2 times more expensive on a per capita basis than that of Sweeden or U.K developed country.So yea, Bernie is actually right.

We have the best health care system in the world. That's why it's the most expensive.

We spend more money on preventative care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

We have the most availability of care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

If all you care about is cutting cost, we can do the same as all those other countries. Cut preventative care. Cut availability. Cut quality. The cost will go down.

Problem solved. Of course more people will die. But.... it'll be cheaper.

 

[Disir]

Really? How many more people will die?

 

[Political Junky]

Bernie is correct.

The US has the most expensive healthcare system in the world. It is 2 times more expensive on a per capita basis than that of Sweeden or U.K developed country.So yea, Bernie is actually right.

We have the best health care system in the world. That's why it's the most expensive.

We spend more money on preventative care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

We have the most availability of care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

If all you care about is cutting cost, we can do the same as all those other countries. Cut preventative care. Cut availability. Cut quality. The cost will go down.

Problem solved. Of course more people will die. But.... it'll be cheaper.

World Health Organization's Ranking of the World's Health Systems

 

[The Rabbi]

Bernie is correct.

The US has the most expensive healthcare system in the world. It is 2 times more expensive on a per capita basis than that of Sweeden or U.K developed country.So yea, Bernie is actually right.

We have the best health care system in the world. That's why it's the most expensive.

We spend more money on preventative care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

We have the most availability of care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

If all you care about is cutting cost, we can do the same as all those other countries. Cut preventative care. Cut availability. Cut quality. The cost will go down.

Problem solved. Of course more people will die. But.... it'll be cheaper.

World Health Organization's Ranking of the World's Health Systems

 

[CultureCitizen]

Bernie is correct.

The US has the most expensive healthcare system in the world. It is 2 times more expensive on a per capita basis than that of Sweeden or U.K developed country.So yea, Bernie is actually right.

We have the best health care system in the world. That's why it's the most expensive.

We spend more money on preventative care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

We have the most availability of care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

If all you care about is cutting cost, we can do the same as all those other countries. Cut preventative care. Cut availability. Cut quality. The cost will go down.

Problem solved. Of course more people will die. But.... it'll be cheaper.

Best health care system in the world. Nope,
It might be the best for some very specialized procedures, but not for general medicine required by the 99% of the population.

We spend more money on preventive care.
??? WTF? If it was so the US would have the highest life expenctancy in the world. It doesn't.
Just look at the chart and how the US costs started to take-off after the 80's.

The general increase in cost is in part due to better procedures and an aging population, but going as far as telling it is two times better than Sweeden's makes no sense.

Insurance companies are damping competition. People don't do medical shopping ( unless they are uninsured or live abroad). You either make healthcare a public service or take insurance companies out of the equation.

 

[The Rabbi]

Bernie is correct.

The US has the most expensive healthcare system in the world. It is 2 times more expensive on a per capita basis than that of Sweeden or U.K developed country.So yea, Bernie is actually right.

We have the best health care system in the world. That's why it's the most expensive.

We spend more money on preventative care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

We have the most availability of care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

If all you care about is cutting cost, we can do the same as all those other countries. Cut preventative care. Cut availability. Cut quality. The cost will go down.

Problem solved. Of course more people will die. But.... it'll be cheaper.

Best health care system in the world. Nope,
It might be the best for some very specialized procedures, but not for general medicine required by the 99% of the population.

We spend more money on preventive care.
??? WTF? If it was so the US would have the highest life expenctancy in the world. It doesn't.
Just look at the chart and how the US costs started to take-off after the 80's.

The general increase in cost is in part due to better procedures and an aging population, but going as far as telling it is two times better than Sweeden's makes no sense.

Insurance companies are damping competition. People don't do medical shopping ( unless they are uninsured or live abroad). You either make healthcare a public service or take insurance companies out of the equation.

If you get sick, you want to do it here in America. That is the only reliable measure.
Insurance companies are folding and merging due to Obamacare. Remind me how Obamacare was supposed to make things better.

 

[Andylusion]

Bernie is correct.

The US has the most expensive healthcare system in the world. It is 2 times more expensive on a per capita basis than that of Sweeden or U.K developed country.So yea, Bernie is actually right.

We have the best health care system in the world. That's why it's the most expensive.

We spend more money on preventative care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

We have the most availability of care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

If all you care about is cutting cost, we can do the same as all those other countries. Cut preventative care. Cut availability. Cut quality. The cost will go down.

Problem solved. Of course more people will die. But.... it'll be cheaper.

Best health care system in the world. Nope,
It might be the best for some very specialized procedures, but not for general medicine required by the 99% of the population.

We spend more money on preventive care.
??? WTF? If it was so the US would have the highest life expenctancy in the world. It doesn't.
Just look at the chart and how the US costs started to take-off after the 80's.

The general increase in cost is in part due to better procedures and an aging population, but going as far as telling it is two times better than Sweeden's makes no sense.

Insurance companies are damping competition. People don't do medical shopping ( unless they are uninsured or live abroad). You either make healthcare a public service or take insurance companies out of the equation.

We do.

Even the OECD admits, that when you take into account trama deaths, such as auto fatalities and murder, we have the highest life expectancy in the world.

Our health care has the highest survival rates in the world.

If you get cancer, you have a better chance of surviving it, rich or poor, cancer of any time, in the US, more than any other country in the world. And our life expectancy shows that.

 

[Andylusion]

Bernie is correct.

The US has the most expensive healthcare system in the world. It is 2 times more expensive on a per capita basis than that of Sweeden or U.K developed country.So yea, Bernie is actually right.

We have the best health care system in the world. That's why it's the most expensive.

We spend more money on preventative care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

We have the most availability of care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

If all you care about is cutting cost, we can do the same as all those other countries. Cut preventative care. Cut availability. Cut quality. The cost will go down.

Problem solved. Of course more people will die. But.... it'll be cheaper.

Best health care system in the world. Nope,
It might be the best for some very specialized procedures, but not for general medicine required by the 99% of the population.

We spend more money on preventive care.
??? WTF? If it was so the US would have the highest life expenctancy in the world. It doesn't.
Just look at the chart and how the US costs started to take-off after the 80's.

The general increase in cost is in part due to better procedures and an aging population, but going as far as telling it is two times better than Sweeden's makes no sense.

Insurance companies are damping competition. People don't do medical shopping ( unless they are uninsured or live abroad). You either make healthcare a public service or take insurance companies out of the equation.

Actually it's not the insurance companies doing it. It's government.

Inherently, when you regulate an industry, you remove the ability to compete. Obama Care increased regulations, which removed the ability of insurance companies to compete. As a result, the market is predictably thinning.

 

[CultureCitizen]

Bernie is correct.

The US has the most expensive healthcare system in the world. It is 2 times more expensive on a per capita basis than that of Sweeden or U.K developed country.So yea, Bernie is actually right.

We have the best health care system in the world. That's why it's the most expensive.

We spend more money on preventative care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

We have the most availability of care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

If all you care about is cutting cost, we can do the same as all those other countries. Cut preventative care. Cut availability. Cut quality. The cost will go down.

Problem solved. Of course more people will die. But.... it'll be cheaper.

Best health care system in the world. Nope,
It might be the best for some very specialized procedures, but not for general medicine required by the 99% of the population.

We spend more money on preventive care.
??? WTF? If it was so the US would have the highest life expenctancy in the world. It doesn't.
Just look at the chart and how the US costs started to take-off after the 80's.

The general increase in cost is in part due to better procedures and an aging population, but going as far as telling it is two times better than Sweeden's makes no sense.

Insurance companies are damping competition. People don't do medical shopping ( unless they are uninsured or live abroad). You either make healthcare a public service or take insurance companies out of the equation.

Actually it's not the insurance companies doing it. It's government.

Inherently, when you regulate an industry, you remove the ability to compete. Obama Care increased regulations, which removed the ability of insurance companies to compete. As a result, the market is predictably thinning.

Come on Andy, this is a situation that started in the mid 80's.
It was already a problem when Clinton became president, it continued to be a problem through all of Bush's presidency.
What does Obama have to do with that ?

Yes , Obama might have something to do with the problem but it is clear that this situation predates his presidency and can not be the cause.

 

[Andylusion]

The US has the most expensive healthcare system in the world. It is 2 times more expensive on a per capita basis than that of Sweeden or U.K developed country.So yea, Bernie is actually right.

We have the best health care system in the world. That's why it's the most expensive.

We spend more money on preventative care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

We have the most availability of care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

If all you care about is cutting cost, we can do the same as all those other countries. Cut preventative care. Cut availability. Cut quality. The cost will go down.

Problem solved. Of course more people will die. But.... it'll be cheaper.

Best health care system in the world. Nope,
It might be the best for some very specialized procedures, but not for general medicine required by the 99% of the population.

We spend more money on preventive care.
??? WTF? If it was so the US would have the highest life expenctancy in the world. It doesn't.
Just look at the chart and how the US costs started to take-off after the 80's.

The general increase in cost is in part due to better procedures and an aging population, but going as far as telling it is two times better than Sweeden's makes no sense.

Insurance companies are damping competition. People don't do medical shopping ( unless they are uninsured or live abroad). You either make healthcare a public service or take insurance companies out of the equation.

Actually it's not the insurance companies doing it. It's government.

Inherently, when you regulate an industry, you remove the ability to compete. Obama Care increased regulations, which removed the ability of insurance companies to compete. As a result, the market is predictably thinning.

Come on Andy, this is a situation that started in the mid 80's.
It was already a problem when Clinton became president, it continued to be a problem through all of Bush's presidency.
What does Obama have to do with that ?

Yes , Obama might have something to do with the problem but it is clear that this situation predates his presidency and can not be the cause.

I have no idea what you are talking about. In 2006, I got an insurance policy for $63 a month, that covered all my needs.

Today, that cost is $250+ plus.

That's a massive jump.

Now, were there certain states that had problems? Yes. The failure of logic, is that just because certain states had problems, you think the country had problems.

No, it did not. Ohio had fairly loose insurance regulations, so prices were fairly low.

Other states, like Massachusetts, had heavy regulations under "MassHealth" universal care, and because of that, had the highest insurance premiums of any state.

Like I said.... regulations drive out competition inherently, and those states with more regulations, had higher costs.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

The US has the most expensive healthcare system in the world. It is 2 times more expensive on a per capita basis than that of Sweeden or U.K developed country.So yea, Bernie is actually right.

We have the best health care system in the world. That's why it's the most expensive.

We spend more money on preventative care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

We have the most availability of care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

If all you care about is cutting cost, we can do the same as all those other countries. Cut preventative care. Cut availability. Cut quality. The cost will go down.

Problem solved. Of course more people will die. But.... it'll be cheaper.

Best health care system in the world. Nope,
It might be the best for some very specialized procedures, but not for general medicine required by the 99% of the population.

We spend more money on preventive care.
??? WTF? If it was so the US would have the highest life expenctancy in the world. It doesn't.
Just look at the chart and how the US costs started to take-off after the 80's.

The general increase in cost is in part due to better procedures and an aging population, but going as far as telling it is two times better than Sweeden's makes no sense.

Insurance companies are damping competition. People don't do medical shopping ( unless they are uninsured or live abroad). You either make healthcare a public service or take insurance companies out of the equation.

Actually it's not the insurance companies doing it. It's government.

Inherently, when you regulate an industry, you remove the ability to compete. Obama Care increased regulations, which removed the ability of insurance companies to compete. As a result, the market is predictably thinning.

Come on Andy, this is a situation that started in the mid 80's.
It was already a problem when Clinton became president, it continued to be a problem through all of Bush's presidency.
What does Obama have to do with that ?

Yes , Obama might have something to do with the problem but it is clear that this situation predates his presidency and can not be the cause.

What Obama did was micromanage the insurance companies.

First he forced them to take on any and all preexisting condition patients with no increase in premium charges, then he forced the insurance companies to spend 80% of their income on medical payments alone. This from a guy that hasn't even run a hot dog stand.

Insurance companies know best how to spend their money--not the President. Their business model is to invest your premium money so the profits can help offset some of the medical costs. They can't do this any longer. Plus they set aside money for insurance fraud investigations which helps the company save big money. Again, they had to cut into that as well.

So now insurance companies have to try and stay alive with a business model from a complete failure. Of course we are going to see many get out of the business or fold.

 

[Andylusion]

Bernie is correct.

The US has the most expensive healthcare system in the world. It is 2 times more expensive on a per capita basis than that of Sweeden or U.K developed country.So yea, Bernie is actually right.

We have the best health care system in the world. That's why it's the most expensive.

We spend more money on preventative care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

We have the most availability of care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

If all you care about is cutting cost, we can do the same as all those other countries. Cut preventative care. Cut availability. Cut quality. The cost will go down.

Problem solved. Of course more people will die. But.... it'll be cheaper.

World Health Organization's Ranking of the World's Health Systems

Tell me, have you read how the ranking system was done? Do you know what methods they used?

Answer: No you do not. If you did, you would be wise enough not to cite it, because it's crap.

 

[CultureCitizen]

ike I said.... regulations drive out competition inherently, and those states with more regulations, had higher costs.

What was the cost of your insurance policy in 2009?

Maryland has the lowest insurance and healthcare costs in the US. They are regulated.

I've been lucky enough not to have the need for any medical procedure. But all of the people I know who have been in a hospital don't do any shopping at all. They just pick the most famous hospital covered by the insurance.
If you wan't to keep it private you need a mechanism which increases competition.

 

[Andylusion]

ike I said.... regulations drive out competition inherently, and those states with more regulations, had higher costs.

What was the cost of your insurance policy in 2009?

Maryland has the lowest insurance and healthcare costs in the US. They are regulated.

I've been lucky enough not to have the need for any medical procedure. But all of the people I know who have been in a hospital don't do any shopping at all. They just pick the most famous hospital covered by the insurance.
If you wan't to keep it private you need a mechanism which increases competition.

It was about $100 if I remember right. $50 a check.

But that was a company plan, which was group coverage.

You can't both have highly regulated, and have competition. That's impossible.

The graph is extremely inconclusive. National average, assumes what exactly? There are states that are far more regulated than Maryland, and states that are far less.

So when comparing the national average, that's useless.

Further, it really doesn't show that rates have remained low. Looks to me that rates rose in relation to the national average, indicated it had little if any effect.

Maryland already sets hospitals’ prices. Now it wants to cap their spending.

But critics say the near-collapse of the state’s old system proves the perils of heavy-handed regulations.
“Hospital rate-setting clearly didn’t succeed at meaningfully slowing costs down,” said Joe Antos, who served eight years on the Maryland board that set rates.​

Interesting how the people there are not saying it isn't working that well, which is exactly what your graph shows.

And the fact the system is on the verge of collapse, proves my point.

Moreover, it also points out something else I've been saying:

Each time a hospital provides a service, it has to negotiate how much money it receives from an insurer. The time-consuming and often contentious process results in widely varying prices for the same procedures.

Hospitals pushed for the highest possible payouts partly because they say they do not receive enough from Medicare, the federal program that reimburses medical providers for their care of the elderly.
​

There it is..... exactly as I have said dozens of times in this thread.

Medicare and Medicaid do not pay enough money to cover the cost of care. (which is pathetic given they are both going broke, while paying less than cost)

As a result Hospitals push to charge as much as they possibly can for treatment of private patients.

The reason health care costs are going up and up, is because of Medicare and Medicaid. These programs cost the hospitals money, which they have to make up that loss on private patients. That's you and me, bubba.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

"Sanders: Universal Healthcare and Free College Aren’t Radical Ideas, They Are ‘Human Rights’"

One of many reasons why Sanders won't be the democratic nominee in 2016.

 

[The Rabbi]

The US has the most expensive healthcare system in the world. It is 2 times more expensive on a per capita basis than that of Sweeden or U.K developed country.So yea, Bernie is actually right.

We have the best health care system in the world. That's why it's the most expensive.

We spend more money on preventative care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

We have the most availability of care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

If all you care about is cutting cost, we can do the same as all those other countries. Cut preventative care. Cut availability. Cut quality. The cost will go down.

Problem solved. Of course more people will die. But.... it'll be cheaper.

Best health care system in the world. Nope,
It might be the best for some very specialized procedures, but not for general medicine required by the 99% of the population.

We spend more money on preventive care.
??? WTF? If it was so the US would have the highest life expenctancy in the world. It doesn't.
Just look at the chart and how the US costs started to take-off after the 80's.

The general increase in cost is in part due to better procedures and an aging population, but going as far as telling it is two times better than Sweeden's makes no sense.

Insurance companies are damping competition. People don't do medical shopping ( unless they are uninsured or live abroad). You either make healthcare a public service or take insurance companies out of the equation.

Actually it's not the insurance companies doing it. It's government.

Inherently, when you regulate an industry, you remove the ability to compete. Obama Care increased regulations, which removed the ability of insurance companies to compete. As a result, the market is predictably thinning.

Come on Andy, this is a situation that started in the mid 80's.
It was already a problem when Clinton became president, it continued to be a problem through all of Bush's presidency.
What does Obama have to do with that ?

Yes , Obama might have something to do with the problem but it is clear that this situation predates his presidency and can not be the cause.

What does Obama have to do with this? You didnt seriously just post that, right? You ever hear of "Obamacare" a/k/a the Affordable Care Act? You know, the thing that massively regulated the health insurance industry. That thing?
Obama took a bad situation and made it worse. His MO.

 

[The Rabbi]

ike I said.... regulations drive out competition inherently, and those states with more regulations, had higher costs.

What was the cost of your insurance policy in 2009?

Maryland has the lowest insurance and healthcare costs in the US. They are regulated.

I've been lucky enough not to have the need for any medical procedure. But all of the people I know who have been in a hospital don't do any shopping at all. They just pick the most famous hospital covered by the insurance.
If you wan't to keep it private you need a mechanism which increases competition.

All states regulate insurance companies. SO that's a fail point.
I do agree we need actual price competition. If you look at procedures that are not covered typically, like breast implants, Lasik and the like, those costs have gone down over the last 15 years, even as quality has gone up. Because people are spending their own money.

 

[CultureCitizen]

The US has the most expensive healthcare system in the world. It is 2 times more expensive on a per capita basis than that of Sweeden or U.K developed country.So yea, Bernie is actually right.

We have the best health care system in the world. That's why it's the most expensive.

We spend more money on preventative care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

We have the most availability of care. Which is why it's the most expensive.

If all you care about is cutting cost, we can do the same as all those other countries. Cut preventative care. Cut availability. Cut quality. The cost will go down.

Problem solved. Of course more people will die. But.... it'll be cheaper.

Best health care system in the world. Nope,
It might be the best for some very specialized procedures, but not for general medicine required by the 99% of the population.

We spend more money on preventive care.
??? WTF? If it was so the US would have the highest life expenctancy in the world. It doesn't.
Just look at the chart and how the US costs started to take-off after the 80's.

The general increase in cost is in part due to better procedures and an aging population, but going as far as telling it is two times better than Sweeden's makes no sense.

Insurance companies are damping competition. People don't do medical shopping ( unless they are uninsured or live abroad). You either make healthcare a public service or take insurance companies out of the equation.

Actually it's not the insurance companies doing it. It's government.

Inherently, when you regulate an industry, you remove the ability to compete. Obama Care increased regulations, which removed the ability of insurance companies to compete. As a result, the market is predictably thinning.

Come on Andy, this is a situation that started in the mid 80's.
It was already a problem when Clinton became president, it continued to be a problem through all of Bush's presidency.
What does Obama have to do with that ?

Yes , Obama might have something to do with the problem but it is clear that this situation predates his presidency and can not be the cause.

What does Obama have to do with this? You didnt seriously just post that, right? You ever hear of "Obamacare" a/k/a the Affordable Care Act? You know, the thing that massively regulated the health insurance industry. That thing?
Obama took a bad situation and made it worse. His MO.

Yes , I did post it , and by "this" I meant this :

From the chart it's quite clear healthcare costs had already skyrocketed by 2009.
So whether Obamacare was a good solution or not, it was-not-the-cause of the problem.