San Jose California attemps to reform pensions

[zeke]

Anyone remember when safety personnel was all VOLUNTEER?

Damn!!!! How old are YOU? I am 60 and I don't remember all volunteer safety personnel in my area.

You maybe live in a rural area where houses are 30 miles apart.

 

[MeBelle]

Maybe bigots and those envious of others might consider the reality of what police and firefighters do for a living, and what is required of them. At any minute on any shift they may be called upon to risk their own life to protect the property or life of others.

Yeah. And ?
The money to pay people not to work has run out.
Taxes on property owners have reached their level of the ability of property owners to absorb the expense.
It's OVER.....Government agencies are going to have to figure out another way to fund the retirements of former public workers.

Ever heard of prop. 13; do some homework and see how well the largest landowners have done since 1978, and how poorly homeowners who purchased after 1978 have faired.

Please do your homework!

MAY 17, 2013

By Katy Grimes


SACRAMENTO — The Senate Governance and Finance Committee on Wednesday passed six constitutional amendments to make it easier for local voters to pass various tax increases on property owners.

“California didn’t knowingly vote for centralized power,” said Sen. Lois Wolk, D-Davis, speaking about the passage of Proposition 13 in 1978, as she opened the committee hearing on the bills. Wolk, the committee chairwoman, echoed longtime critics of Prop. 13 that it reduced the ability of local governments to increase taxes, requiring the state government to step in and fund programs.

She said Prop. 13 has been around for more than 30 years, but it was time to change the law which has held property taxes in check since 1978. “Voters today ought to have a say,” she said.

Prop. 13 limited property taxes to 1 percent of the property’s assessed value, plus annual increases of up to 2 percent. When a property changes ownership, the new owner pays 1 percent of the newly assessed value.

Despite that, California by no means is a low-property tax state; it’s ranked 14th highest nationally, according to Jon Coupal, President of the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association.

Six bills would make it easier to pass tax increases | CalWatchDog
Read...more coming!!

Hot Dam! Instead of people losing their homes to property taxes prior to Prop 13, homeowners actually get to KEEP their homes! Or does the majority (D) want to throw people out on the streets?

 

[Meathead]

In order to get union support, politicians voted to raise union benefits. Next election, politicians had to promise even more to get union support. It became a death spiral. Citizens could never hope to get what these publuc employees were getting. Yet they had to pay it.

It's the same thing with welfare. Politicians promise more and more to be paid by fewer and fewer people. It doesn't look good when it starts falling apart.

Greece in a nutshell.

 

[MeBelle]

Anyone remember when safety personnel was all VOLUNTEER?

Damn!!!! How old are YOU? I am 60 and I don't remember all volunteer safety personnel in my area.

You maybe live in a rural area where houses are 30 miles apart.

Bite me!!!

As a child my parents were in the volunteer ambulance corp. All of the firemen were volunteer except for the Chief (by law). Half of the City's police dept were volunteer.
In my 20's my roommate was a volunteer fireman.
Different states of course...BUTT...

I currently live in Cali, in a city of 40k+ people. We have some volunteer police and firefighters.

 

[Harry Dresden]

It has been 36 years since 1978. There are very VERY few people who have not had their property reassessed since 1978. Property taxes go up 1.5% a year which keeps the state from raping retirees too badly.

And yes, when someone dies, the property is reassessed when it passes to heirs.

The cities just cannot afford to pay these pensions. There is no money. Detroit has no money, Stockton has no money and now San Jose has no money. If the risk that police and fire fighters take is priceless, they should have thought of that before they took the job.

the property my parents left me and my sister was not affected at all.....we were told it gets reassessed to the new owner if you sell it....

 

[Wry Catcher]

Yeah. And ?
The money to pay people not to work has run out.
Taxes on property owners have reached their level of the ability of property owners to absorb the expense.
It's OVER.....Government agencies are going to have to figure out another way to fund the retirements of former public workers.

Ever heard of prop. 13; do some homework and see how well the largest landowners have done since 1978, and how poorly homeowners who purchased after 1978 have faired.

FYI, I was paying $1,700 per month into my retirement the final year before I retired. So don't pretend all gov't workers get a free ride.

WTF does any land owners well being have to do with what you deserve? They do well so you think you deserve to do better? What for?

Good job on spiking your pension you ungrateful fuck. Not like the tax payers paid you well during your employment but in the end they paid you so well you could fuck them even further by inflating your retirement.

You are the reason we are having these problems. Congrats on your assholiness.

^Your ignorance is overwhelming. Prop. 13 fucked all future home owners but has nil effect on Southern Pacific, Apartment House owners, Safeway, Wells Fargo/Bank of America, Cheveron and other large property owners, for their property rarely changes hands and thus is never reassessed at fair market value.

Take as an example my younger son's home. He pays three times the property taxes that my wife and I do, simply because he and his wife purchased their home in 2010 and we purchased ours in 1980. We pay on an original assessed base value of $80k and he on an original assessed base value of $350,000k; and, our home is worth double the value of his and we are less than a mile apart. Our property taxes can never be raised beyond 2% per year nor can theirs, but starting at the base value even you can figure the difference that makes over the years.

As for "spiking" my retirement, you bet. The rules in effect during my career didn't change except for the Ventura Decision. And that was brought about by myopic elected officials in Ventura County:

Ventura Decision

Do you begrudge all the owners of large apt. houses who benefit from Prop 13 and tax laws and call them greedy assholes for playing by the rules? You may want to check your anger and envy because I'm smarter than you and planned for my retirement when I first decided on a career. Stop sniveling and grow a pair, but don't pretend your motivation is anything but envy.

 

[Wry Catcher]

My brother-in-law has been a fireman for 40 years. He's amazing and has served this city proudly. I think he's worth his weight in gold. Unfortunately, his retirement is in jeopardy, like many others across the country. He's earned every benefit he receives, but the money has to be there in order for him to get what he deserves.

I hate it that our town has been overrun with welfare people. The place has gone to hell. Neighborhoods that used to look good are now run down because many homes are rent controlled and no one takes care of them. Police are called to a house down the street frequently. The couple are on welfare and always sitting outside drinking and smoking. They don't work and they are lousy parents. Nice to know our tax dollars are keeping them going. I am sorry, but reading the police log every week proves that this sort of thing isn't rare. It's a damn epidemic.

I don't know how the city can afford to keep paying the police and fire depts. considering there just isn't enough money coming in.

We have many retired police and firemen drawing pensions and that number increases all the time. We pay pensions in addition to the new employees who take their place.

In a perfect world, there would be growth and more people entering the work force each year. That is the only way to ensure that city workers get paid. Without that, everyone is screwed. When able-bodied people who should be working and contributing are sitting home and collecting welfare from the tax payers, things go to shit.

As unfair as it is for any employee not to get the retirement they earned, what other choice is there when the money runs out. Other people's money ALWAYS runs out eventually. I'm surprised that more cities in California haven't gone belly up. There are so many welfare recipients, so much crime and illegal alien gangs fighting with the other minority gangs that many tax payers got the hell out of Dodge. Now cities scramble to find money to keep going and all the protestors in the world won't cause the city to magically find the money.

So your solution to the problems you describe is what?

Welfare has been cut, I doubt that the family you described are receiving TNAF, for rules are in effect now which did not exist under AFDC (see: welfare reform).

The only one I see who has a plan to solve the problems in CA is Gov. Brown. In fact he is the only fiscal conservative in office that I'm aware of willing to make hard choices on spending and taxation. It seems every pol is solely concerned with their own job security and that is the greater problem we face.

 

[Vox]

San Jose will join all the other cities who have been driven into bankruptcy by bloated pensions. What a shame that these lessons have to be so bitter.

The biggest shame is tha nobody wants to learn from the lessons of OTHERS, every stupid greedy public employee needs to learn form the PERSONAL burning

stupid greedy leeches

 

[Antares]

Communists do not equate with American liberals.

Fascists do not equate with American conservatives.

Communists do not equate with American liberals.

No, but they DO equate with American "Progressives".

 

[Wry Catcher]

Yessireee....all taxpayers in Cali are bigots including my great-great grandchildren.
Yessireee... my GG children are 'envious'
CalPERS and CalSTRS encompass many more jobs than safety.
Defined pensions are what make cities go bankrupt.
Cali CAN'T afford this!

Pension Reform Act of 2014, filed with California Secretary of State office 10/15/2013

aiCIO - Californian Unfunded Liabilities: Double What We Thought

(June 13, 2013) - California's unfunded pension liabilities for all state and local governments combined is roughly $329 billion, according to Moody's new actuarial method—nearly double the original estimate of $128 billion.


Remember, unfunded liabilities are NOT in the state budget.

It's true. The pension I receive is obscene when compared to the average Joe. Of course my pension and benefits are miniscule when compared to the salary and benefits of CEO's and CFO's, those who never once ran into harms way. And of course I was responding directly to the post where cops and firefighters were singled out.

Isn't it true a contract is binding? Or do you only believe it to be so when you benefit?

Does the good faith and credit of the government mean anything, or is that so only when you benefit?

The contracts were signed off by elected officials previously approved by a County Manager and his staff. Nothing illegal, no hint of fraud (ever hear of Enron?) and we actually worked (ever see how many days of 'work' the H. of Rep. is in session? When will they take a pay cut, and give up their benefits?).

A contract is only as good for the length of the term it was written for.
If a contract were set in stone forever why the need for bargaining?

That's a fact. What's happening now is good people are leaving early and will collect retirement benefits under the old rules do to the threat of change. Those who are retired should not be faced with new rules and cuts to salary and benefits because promises had been made and impacted retirement planning. Many of us wouldn't have put up with the bullshit and moved on to higher pay if the original promise with the offer of employment could be set aside do to political expediency/incompetence.

Does the good faith and credit of the government mean anything, or is that so only when you benefit?
Silly head. I am union. Only had one furlough day this year, last year we had four furlough days.

1) Comparing Enron to taxpaying Californians whose taxes get jacked in order to pay unfunded pension liabilities is nonsense.
2) Who signed CalPERS and CalSTRS into law and how did CalPERS, especially, get so much power?
3) Corporate CEOs/CFOs are not paid with California tax dollars, nor do they have a defined pension benefit. CEOs, etc, are paid by the stockholders. Mixing apples and oranges is deflection.
4) Why in the heck should elected councilmen be eligible for CalPERS? Do they risk their life?

Answer those questions please. I have more for you.

1. Enron was fraud; that was my only point.

2, I don't know anything about the history of CalPERS, my retirement is a county-wide safety system, not state-wide.

3. My point being the spread between multi-million dollar incomes and what police and fire fighters make, not the source. But doesn't the money made by business and industry moguls come out of the pocket of consumers too? Higher costs of goods require the consumer to pay not only for the product but a higher sales tax.

4. There are several separate retirement funds, Safety, Tier I, Tier 2 and in some systems a tier 3. Safety is what I earned, and I simply followed the rules. I'm no expert on retirement system and very, very few are, and none than I can tell who posted on this thread. Elected officials do not receive the benefits of Safety (the elected County Sheriff is the exception).

I do know that our local system earned about 8% on investments most years - before the Great Bush Recession, and is now, once again, earning better than average interest. In lean years the retirement system gave - not loaned - funds to the general fund to aid in keeping essential services.

Of course "essential services" are open to interpretation. Bleeding heart liberals and Callous Conservatives likely will never agree on what is essential and what is not. And each side will come up with reasons to support or not such government activities.

 

[Katzndogz]

My brother-in-law has been a fireman for 40 years. He's amazing and has served this city proudly. I think he's worth his weight in gold. Unfortunately, his retirement is in jeopardy, like many others across the country. He's earned every benefit he receives, but the money has to be there in order for him to get what he deserves.

I hate it that our town has been overrun with welfare people. The place has gone to hell. Neighborhoods that used to look good are now run down because many homes are rent controlled and no one takes care of them. Police are called to a house down the street frequently. The couple are on welfare and always sitting outside drinking and smoking. They don't work and they are lousy parents. Nice to know our tax dollars are keeping them going. I am sorry, but reading the police log every week proves that this sort of thing isn't rare. It's a damn epidemic.

I don't know how the city can afford to keep paying the police and fire depts. considering there just isn't enough money coming in.

We have many retired police and firemen drawing pensions and that number increases all the time. We pay pensions in addition to the new employees who take their place.

In a perfect world, there would be growth and more people entering the work force each year. That is the only way to ensure that city workers get paid. Without that, everyone is screwed. When able-bodied people who should be working and contributing are sitting home and collecting welfare from the tax payers, things go to shit.

As unfair as it is for any employee not to get the retirement they earned, what other choice is there when the money runs out. Other people's money ALWAYS runs out eventually. I'm surprised that more cities in California haven't gone belly up. There are so many welfare recipients, so much crime and illegal alien gangs fighting with the other minority gangs that many tax payers got the hell out of Dodge. Now cities scramble to find money to keep going and all the protestors in the world won't cause the city to magically find the money.

So your solution to the problems you describe is what?

Welfare has been cut, I doubt that the family you described are receiving TNAF, for rules are in effect now which did not exist under AFDC (see: welfare reform).

The only one I see who has a plan to solve the problems in CA is Gov. Brown. In fact he is the only fiscal conservative in office that I'm aware of willing to make hard choices on spending and taxation. It seems every pol is solely concerned with their own job security and that is the greater problem we face.

If you think that your property taxes are too low, call the Assessor's office and have your property reassessed. Don't tell someone else, who couldn't afford to pay massively increased property taxes that they have to pay more. The whole reason for Prop 13 was because people who had retired could not afford to pay the massively increased taxes that were increased on the whim of unconcerned legislators. People were losing homes that had been long paid for.

 

[Wry Catcher]

My brother-in-law has been a fireman for 40 years. He's amazing and has served this city proudly. I think he's worth his weight in gold. Unfortunately, his retirement is in jeopardy, like many others across the country. He's earned every benefit he receives, but the money has to be there in order for him to get what he deserves.

I hate it that our town has been overrun with welfare people. The place has gone to hell. Neighborhoods that used to look good are now run down because many homes are rent controlled and no one takes care of them. Police are called to a house down the street frequently. The couple are on welfare and always sitting outside drinking and smoking. They don't work and they are lousy parents. Nice to know our tax dollars are keeping them going. I am sorry, but reading the police log every week proves that this sort of thing isn't rare. It's a damn epidemic.

I don't know how the city can afford to keep paying the police and fire depts. considering there just isn't enough money coming in.

We have many retired police and firemen drawing pensions and that number increases all the time. We pay pensions in addition to the new employees who take their place.

In a perfect world, there would be growth and more people entering the work force each year. That is the only way to ensure that city workers get paid. Without that, everyone is screwed. When able-bodied people who should be working and contributing are sitting home and collecting welfare from the tax payers, things go to shit.

As unfair as it is for any employee not to get the retirement they earned, what other choice is there when the money runs out. Other people's money ALWAYS runs out eventually. I'm surprised that more cities in California haven't gone belly up. There are so many welfare recipients, so much crime and illegal alien gangs fighting with the other minority gangs that many tax payers got the hell out of Dodge. Now cities scramble to find money to keep going and all the protestors in the world won't cause the city to magically find the money.

So your solution to the problems you describe is what?

Welfare has been cut, I doubt that the family you described are receiving TNAF, for rules are in effect now which did not exist under AFDC (see: welfare reform).

The only one I see who has a plan to solve the problems in CA is Gov. Brown. In fact he is the only fiscal conservative in office that I'm aware of willing to make hard choices on spending and taxation. It seems every pol is solely concerned with their own job security and that is the greater problem we face.

If you think that your property taxes are too low, call the Assessor's office and have your property reassessed. Don't tell someone else, who couldn't afford to pay massively increased property taxes that they have to pay more. The whole reason for Prop 13 was because people who had retired could not afford to pay the massively increased taxes that were increased on the whim of unconcerned legislators. People were losing homes that had been long paid for.

You are correct in what you posted, you also lied by omission (if you are ignorant, I will offer my mea culpa). Jarvis and Gann screwed the future home owner and greatly benefited business, industry and especially the real estate investor. How? Homes sell relatively often, the property owned by Southern Pacific, Wells Fargo and the Bank of America, Chevron and other large businesses and industry (and especially large apt. complexes - of course this is another story for another thread) rarely are sold under conditions where they are reassessed at current market value.

So, are you dishonest or ignorant?

 

[Katzndogz]

So your solution to the problems you describe is what?

Welfare has been cut, I doubt that the family you described are receiving TNAF, for rules are in effect now which did not exist under AFDC (see: welfare reform).

The only one I see who has a plan to solve the problems in CA is Gov. Brown. In fact he is the only fiscal conservative in office that I'm aware of willing to make hard choices on spending and taxation. It seems every pol is solely concerned with their own job security and that is the greater problem we face.

If you think that your property taxes are too low, call the Assessor's office and have your property reassessed. Don't tell someone else, who couldn't afford to pay massively increased property taxes that they have to pay more. The whole reason for Prop 13 was because people who had retired could not afford to pay the massively increased taxes that were increased on the whim of unconcerned legislators. People were losing homes that had been long paid for.

You are correct in what you posted, you also lied by omission (if you are ignorant, I will offer my mea culpa). Jarvis and Gann screwed the future home owner and greatly benefited business, industry and especially the real estate investor. How? Homes sell relatively often, the property owned by Southern Pacific, Wells Fargo and the Bank of America, Chevron and other large businesses and industry (and especially large apt. complexes - of course this is another story for another thread) rarely are sold under conditions where they are reassessed at current market value.

So, are you dishonest or ignorant?

Then you are no doubt supporting AB188 and are donating heavily to that cause.

 

[Wry Catcher]

If you think that your property taxes are too low, call the Assessor's office and have your property reassessed. Don't tell someone else, who couldn't afford to pay massively increased property taxes that they have to pay more. The whole reason for Prop 13 was because people who had retired could not afford to pay the massively increased taxes that were increased on the whim of unconcerned legislators. People were losing homes that had been long paid for.

You are correct in what you posted, you also lied by omission (if you are ignorant, I will offer my mea culpa). Jarvis and Gann screwed the future home owner and greatly benefited business, industry and especially the real estate investor. How? Homes sell relatively often, the property owned by Southern Pacific, Wells Fargo and the Bank of America, Chevron and other large businesses and industry (and especially large apt. complexes - of course this is another story for another thread) rarely are sold under conditions where they are reassessed at current market value.

So, are you dishonest or ignorant?

Then you are no doubt supporting AB188 and are donating heavily to that cause.

I'm adverse to reading pending bills. One of my least favorite 'jobs' was to review all legislation introduced and provide an executive summary to the boss on if it would impact Law Enforcement, and follow those bills which would.

I do know Prop. 13 needs to be revised, how and in what manner is way to complicated a matrix. It will have a wide impact and needs to be well thought out before it becomes law, something legislatures are not very good at.

 

[Darkwind]

Assuming I am reading between the linkless hyperbole correctly, it is instructive how in this case a local government is looking to break a long held contract with (communist!?!) fire fighters/cops and is considered by this nutball to be fully justified in doing so. But when the discussion is on foreclosures by banks issuing usurious mortgages the teabagger narrative is "sorry sucker, you signed on the dotted line now live with it, buyer beware loooser". What the hell is their fucking problem? A working person/consumer should be able to count on the agreements they make with powerful entities but this growing eagerness on their part to cheer when the little guy loses is terribly worrisome. Pensions are becoming a thing of the past, don't know what the hell these assholes think old people are going to do when personal retirement accounts and SS finally buckle to their relentless onslaught of greed enablement.

Wow. What an insightful and incredibly hate-filled analysis.

 

[Darkwind]

Maybe someone will learn the value of other people's money!

Maybe bigots and those envious of others might consider the reality of what police and firefighters do for a living, and what is required of them. At any minute on any shift they may be called upon to risk their own life to protect the property or life of others.

The irony is amazing...

BTW....there is a difference between "The Unions" and the Firefighters/Police......Who are just contributors to the Unions...

It is a sign of desperation that each and every time some solution arises to try and fix the disaster that is happening, people like you reach for the fear card.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Maybe someone will learn the value of other people's money!

Maybe bigots and those envious of others might consider the reality of what police and firefighters do for a living, and what is required of them. At any minute on any shift they may be called upon to risk their own life to protect the property or life of others.

The irony is amazing...

BTW....there is a difference between "The Unions" and the Firefighters/Police......Who are just contributors to the Unions...

It is a sign of desperation that each and every time some solution arises to try and fix the disaster that is happening, people like you reach for the fear card.

People like me reach for the fear card? Do you have any evidence to prove that, or is this one more example of accusing others of what the right does regularly? Calling bigots out as bigots and those who are obviously envious of those of us who planned ahead isn't fear mongering, no matter how you spin it between your ears.

 

[Darkwind]

Maybe bigots and those envious of others might consider the reality of what police and firefighters do for a living, and what is required of them. At any minute on any shift they may be called upon to risk their own life to protect the property or life of others.

The irony is amazing...

BTW....there is a difference between "The Unions" and the Firefighters/Police......Who are just contributors to the Unions...

It is a sign of desperation that each and every time some solution arises to try and fix the disaster that is happening, people like you reach for the fear card.

People like me reach for the fear card? Do you have any evidence to prove that, or is this one more example of accusing others of what the right does regularly? Calling bigots out as bigots and those who are obviously envious of those of us who planned ahead isn't fear mongering, no matter how you spin it between your ears.

re-read the post I quoted (Of yours btw).....If you can't see it, no amount of effort on My part will bring the light to you.

 

[Vox]

My brother-in-law has been a fireman for 40 years. He's amazing and has served this city proudly. I think he's worth his weight in gold. Unfortunately, his retirement is in jeopardy, like many others across the country. He's earned every benefit he receives, but the money has to be there in order for him to get what he deserves.

I hate it that our town has been overrun with welfare people. The place has gone to hell. Neighborhoods that used to look good are now run down because many homes are rent controlled and no one takes care of them. Police are called to a house down the street frequently. The couple are on welfare and always sitting outside drinking and smoking. They don't work and they are lousy parents. Nice to know our tax dollars are keeping them going. I am sorry, but reading the police log every week proves that this sort of thing isn't rare. It's a damn epidemic.

I don't know how the city can afford to keep paying the police and fire depts. considering there just isn't enough money coming in.

We have many retired police and firemen drawing pensions and that number increases all the time. We pay pensions in addition to the new employees who take their place.

In a perfect world, there would be growth and more people entering the work force each year. That is the only way to ensure that city workers get paid. Without that, everyone is screwed. When able-bodied people who should be working and contributing are sitting home and collecting welfare from the tax payers, things go to shit.

As unfair as it is for any employee not to get the retirement they earned, what other choice is there when the money runs out. Other people's money ALWAYS runs out eventually. I'm surprised that more cities in California haven't gone belly up. There are so many welfare recipients, so much crime and illegal alien gangs fighting with the other minority gangs that many tax payers got the hell out of Dodge. Now cities scramble to find money to keep going and all the protestors in the world won't cause the city to magically find the money.

there is one recipe for California - stop being so dumb dimocrap - and maybe, just maybe the life will become easier.

there is no need to increase the rolls f welfare recipients which soon will be higher than all other states combined ( exaggerating here but just a little bit) and stop being a safe haven for illegals - but in order to do so - stop voting dimocrap FIRST
( it is not directed at you, Clementine, but you understand what I mean)

 

[Wolfstrike]

our house is protected under prop 13.
there is no amount of money that's owed to the state.
the state collects far more money that was ever imagined a government would.
out city and state collect so much tax money, we have the highest paid government jobs in the nation with the highest pensions.
we have a school district that is a city within itself and answers only to itself.
any argument that the city and the state need more money is foolish