Russia Ukraine draw up tentative peace plan

Delldude

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Dec 12, 2014
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Ukraine and Russia have made significant progress on a tentative 15-point peace plan including a ceasefire and Russian withdrawal if Kyiv declares neutrality and accepts limits on its armed forces, according to three people involved in the talks.

The proposed deal, which Ukrainian and Russian negotiators discussed in full for the first time on Tuesday, would involve Kyiv renouncing its ambitions to join Nato and promising not to host foreign military bases or weaponry in exchange for protection from allies such as the US, UK and Turkey, the people said.

Ukraine and Russia claimed to be making significant progress in settlement talks on Wednesday, with Moscow saying there was “hope for reaching a compromise.”

Sergei Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister, said that “absolutely specific wordings” were “close to being agreed” in negotiations with Ukraine, including security guarantees for Moscow and neutrality for Kyiv. The Kremlin said options for Ukraine modelled on Austria and Sweden were under discussion.

Lavrov’s assessment is the most upbeat yet delivered by a senior Russian figure, and came after Ukrainian president Zelensky said talks with Moscow aimed at ending the war were beginning to “sound more realistic.”

Speaking during another night of heavy Russian shelling, Zelensky gave no details of how Kyiv and Moscow’s negotiating positions had narrowed and said ongoing talks with Moscow were “difficult.”

But Zelensky and his aides have increasingly played down Ukraine’s chances of joining NATO, a prospect that Russia sees as a provocation. Instead, Kyiv has signalled that alternative “security guarantees” may be a more pragmatic option.

“All wars end in agreements . . . As I am told, the positions in the negotiations sound more realistic,” Zelensky said in a video address. “However, time is still needed for the decisions to be in Ukraine’s interests.”

Addressing Ukraine’s aspirations to join Nato, Zelensky on Tuesday said he “acknowledged” membership was not achievable. “It’s understood that Ukraine is not a member of Nato. We understand this,” he said. “For years we have been hearing about so-called open doors. But we have also now heard that we cannot go there.”

Lavrov welcomed Zelensky’s “realistic assessment” of talks and said Russia’s negotiators were also cautiously optimistic. “The negotiations are difficult for obvious reasons, but nonetheless there is a certain hope for reaching a compromise,” Lavrov said in an interview with the RBC news channel.

Moscow has called for Kyiv to formally renounce its aspiration to join Nato, which is included in Ukraine’s constitution, and to recognise the independence of two pro-Russia separatist statelets in the country’s east and Russian sovereignty over Crimea, which it seized in 2014.

The Kremlin on Wednesday pointed to Austria and Sweden as potential models for Ukrainian neutrality. Such approaches would allow Ukraine to maintain armed forces while restricting its ability to join military alliances such as Nato, or place foreign bases on its territory.

“This option is really being discussed now, and is one that can be considered neutral,” said Putin’s spokesperson Dmitry Peskov.

Financial Times
 
No peace. Ukraine is a sovereign state and if they want to join NATO they can. Putin can either retreat and leave, or continue destroying his economy and country in a downward spiral of sanctions, economic collapse, and fascism.

Ukraine must not accept any peace that involves giving up regions of Ukraine to Putin, or promising not to join NATO.
 
No peace. Ukraine is a sovereign state and if they want to join NATO they can. Putin can either retreat and leave, or continue destroying his economy and country in a downward spiral of sanctions, economic collapse, and fascism.

Ukraine must not accept any peace that involves giving up regions of Ukraine to Putin, or promising not to join NATO.
Yes, even considering the horrible consequences of failing to find a peaceful solution, the prowar rhetoric has been stoked up so much now that there will be outspoken condemnation of a peaceful end to the war, by many Americans.
We're led to believe that 30% of Americans will accept nothing but complete defeat of Russia. Even considering the consequences that could be nuclear war!

moderator: Thanks for combining the two threads. This one didn't exist when I posted mine, as far as I was aware.
 
Yes, even considering the horrible consequences of failing to find a peaceful solution, the prowar rhetoric has been stoked up so much now that there will be outspoken condemnation of a peaceful end to the war, by many Americans.
We're led to believe that 30% of Americans will accept nothing but complete defeat of Russia. Even considering the consequences that could be nuclear war!

moderator: Thanks for combining the two threads. This one didn't exist when I posted mine, as far as I was aware.
The chess pieces have already been moved and the consequences have already happened.

No peace if Ukraine has to give up sovereignty or land.
 
A peace plan is going to piss off the neo-Ns in ukraine. They have been waiting for this war.
Crudely stated but quite to the point according to many well informed sources.

Be it an 'N' issue or just plain ethnic hating between Ukrainians and Russian speaking Ukrainians, there is little doubt that it is the root cause that pushed Putin to action. And too, little doubt that the West used that and promoted it.

However, now it's time to entertain the prospects of peace!
 
What could it be that makes you the way you are behaving?
Excuse me?

Countries should not be rewarded for invading and destroying neighbors - killing their women, killing their children, and decimating their towns.

So my question is: How many rubles are you being paid to say that Ukraine should give up its sovereignty and become RussiaLite?
 
Excuse me?

Countries should not be rewarded for invading and destroying neighbors - killing their women, killing their children, and decimating their towns.

So my question is: How many rubles are you being paid to say that Ukraine should give up its sovereignty and become RussiaLite?

You won't get an answer to a ridiculous question like that one.

There was no possible answer to the question of why America could be justified on the second Iraq war.

If there any possible answer that Russia can provide for them having a justifiable reason for their war? That's my question to you.

Yesterday I posted Madeleine Albright's reply when she was asked if a half million dead Iraqi children were worth it, and it blew a few Americans' fuses.

Ask me a question that applies to this war situation.
 
Ukraine and Russia have made significant progress on a tentative 15-point peace plan including a ceasefire and Russian withdrawal if Kyiv declares neutrality and accepts limits on its armed forces, according to three people involved in the talks.

The proposed deal, which Ukrainian and Russian negotiators discussed in full for the first time on Tuesday, would involve Kyiv renouncing its ambitions to join Nato and promising not to host foreign military bases or weaponry in exchange for protection from allies such as the US, UK and Turkey, the people said.

Ukraine and Russia claimed to be making significant progress in settlement talks on Wednesday, with Moscow saying there was “hope for reaching a compromise.”

Sergei Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister, said that “absolutely specific wordings” were “close to being agreed” in negotiations with Ukraine, including security guarantees for Moscow and neutrality for Kyiv. The Kremlin said options for Ukraine modelled on Austria and Sweden were under discussion.

Lavrov’s assessment is the most upbeat yet delivered by a senior Russian figure, and came after Ukrainian president Zelensky said talks with Moscow aimed at ending the war were beginning to “sound more realistic.”

Speaking during another night of heavy Russian shelling, Zelensky gave no details of how Kyiv and Moscow’s negotiating positions had narrowed and said ongoing talks with Moscow were “difficult.”

But Zelensky and his aides have increasingly played down Ukraine’s chances of joining NATO, a prospect that Russia sees as a provocation. Instead, Kyiv has signalled that alternative “security guarantees” may be a more pragmatic option.

“All wars end in agreements . . . As I am told, the positions in the negotiations sound more realistic,” Zelensky said in a video address. “However, time is still needed for the decisions to be in Ukraine’s interests.”

Addressing Ukraine’s aspirations to join Nato, Zelensky on Tuesday said he “acknowledged” membership was not achievable. “It’s understood that Ukraine is not a member of Nato. We understand this,” he said. “For years we have been hearing about so-called open doors. But we have also now heard that we cannot go there.”

Lavrov welcomed Zelensky’s “realistic assessment” of talks and said Russia’s negotiators were also cautiously optimistic. “The negotiations are difficult for obvious reasons, but nonetheless there is a certain hope for reaching a compromise,” Lavrov said in an interview with the RBC news channel.

Moscow has called for Kyiv to formally renounce its aspiration to join Nato, which is included in Ukraine’s constitution, and to recognise the independence of two pro-Russia separatist statelets in the country’s east and Russian sovereignty over Crimea, which it seized in 2014.

The Kremlin on Wednesday pointed to Austria and Sweden as potential models for Ukrainian neutrality. Such approaches would allow Ukraine to maintain armed forces while restricting its ability to join military alliances such as Nato, or place foreign bases on its territory.

“This option is really being discussed now, and is one that can be considered neutral,” said Putin’s spokesperson Dmitry Peskov.

Financial Times
Where's the obligatory link that you've quoted from?

You're welcome to use mine if you like. Is that where you got your quote?
 
Ukraine and Russia have made significant progress on a tentative 15-point peace plan including a ceasefire and Russian withdrawal if Kyiv declares neutrality and accepts limits on its armed forces, according to three people involved in the talks.

The proposed deal, which Ukrainian and Russian negotiators discussed in full for the first time on Tuesday, would involve Kyiv renouncing its ambitions to join Nato and promising not to host foreign military bases or weaponry in exchange for protection from allies such as the US, UK and Turkey, the people said.

Ukraine and Russia claimed to be making significant progress in settlement talks on Wednesday, with Moscow saying there was “hope for reaching a compromise.”

Sergei Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister, said that “absolutely specific wordings” were “close to being agreed” in negotiations with Ukraine, including security guarantees for Moscow and neutrality for Kyiv. The Kremlin said options for Ukraine modelled on Austria and Sweden were under discussion.

Lavrov’s assessment is the most upbeat yet delivered by a senior Russian figure, and came after Ukrainian president Zelensky said talks with Moscow aimed at ending the war were beginning to “sound more realistic.”

Speaking during another night of heavy Russian shelling, Zelensky gave no details of how Kyiv and Moscow’s negotiating positions had narrowed and said ongoing talks with Moscow were “difficult.”

But Zelensky and his aides have increasingly played down Ukraine’s chances of joining NATO, a prospect that Russia sees as a provocation. Instead, Kyiv has signalled that alternative “security guarantees” may be a more pragmatic option.

“All wars end in agreements . . . As I am told, the positions in the negotiations sound more realistic,” Zelensky said in a video address. “However, time is still needed for the decisions to be in Ukraine’s interests.”

Addressing Ukraine’s aspirations to join Nato, Zelensky on Tuesday said he “acknowledged” membership was not achievable. “It’s understood that Ukraine is not a member of Nato. We understand this,” he said. “For years we have been hearing about so-called open doors. But we have also now heard that we cannot go there.”

Lavrov welcomed Zelensky’s “realistic assessment” of talks and said Russia’s negotiators were also cautiously optimistic. “The negotiations are difficult for obvious reasons, but nonetheless there is a certain hope for reaching a compromise,” Lavrov said in an interview with the RBC news channel.

Moscow has called for Kyiv to formally renounce its aspiration to join Nato, which is included in Ukraine’s constitution, and to recognise the independence of two pro-Russia separatist statelets in the country’s east and Russian sovereignty over Crimea, which it seized in 2014.

The Kremlin on Wednesday pointed to Austria and Sweden as potential models for Ukrainian neutrality. Such approaches would allow Ukraine to maintain armed forces while restricting its ability to join military alliances such as Nato, or place foreign bases on its territory.

“This option is really being discussed now, and is one that can be considered neutral,” said Putin’s spokesperson Dmitry Peskov.

Financial Times
Hopefully the gas prices go down. JEEEZUZ
 
Ukraine and Russia have made significant progress on a tentative 15-point peace plan including a ceasefire and Russian withdrawal if Kyiv declares neutrality and accepts limits on its armed forces, according to three people involved in the talks.

The proposed deal, which Ukrainian and Russian negotiators discussed in full for the first time on Tuesday, would involve Kyiv renouncing its ambitions to join Nato and promising not to host foreign military bases or weaponry in exchange for protection from allies such as the US, UK and Turkey, the people said.

Ukraine and Russia claimed to be making significant progress in settlement talks on Wednesday, with Moscow saying there was “hope for reaching a compromise.”

Sergei Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister, said that “absolutely specific wordings” were “close to being agreed” in negotiations with Ukraine, including security guarantees for Moscow and neutrality for Kyiv. The Kremlin said options for Ukraine modelled on Austria and Sweden were under discussion.

Lavrov’s assessment is the most upbeat yet delivered by a senior Russian figure, and came after Ukrainian president Zelensky said talks with Moscow aimed at ending the war were beginning to “sound more realistic.”

Speaking during another night of heavy Russian shelling, Zelensky gave no details of how Kyiv and Moscow’s negotiating positions had narrowed and said ongoing talks with Moscow were “difficult.”

But Zelensky and his aides have increasingly played down Ukraine’s chances of joining NATO, a prospect that Russia sees as a provocation. Instead, Kyiv has signalled that alternative “security guarantees” may be a more pragmatic option.

“All wars end in agreements . . . As I am told, the positions in the negotiations sound more realistic,” Zelensky said in a video address. “However, time is still needed for the decisions to be in Ukraine’s interests.”

Addressing Ukraine’s aspirations to join Nato, Zelensky on Tuesday said he “acknowledged” membership was not achievable. “It’s understood that Ukraine is not a member of Nato. We understand this,” he said. “For years we have been hearing about so-called open doors. But we have also now heard that we cannot go there.”

Lavrov welcomed Zelensky’s “realistic assessment” of talks and said Russia’s negotiators were also cautiously optimistic. “The negotiations are difficult for obvious reasons, but nonetheless there is a certain hope for reaching a compromise,” Lavrov said in an interview with the RBC news channel.

Moscow has called for Kyiv to formally renounce its aspiration to join Nato, which is included in Ukraine’s constitution, and to recognise the independence of two pro-Russia separatist statelets in the country’s east and Russian sovereignty over Crimea, which it seized in 2014.

The Kremlin on Wednesday pointed to Austria and Sweden as potential models for Ukrainian neutrality. Such approaches would allow Ukraine to maintain armed forces while restricting its ability to join military alliances such as Nato, or place foreign bases on its territory.

“This option is really being discussed now, and is one that can be considered neutral,” said Putin’s spokesperson Dmitry Peskov.

Financial Times

Do you have a non Russian-propaganda source for this?
 
The Iraq War was a mistake and wrong. What does that have to do with Russia/Ukraine?
Well the Iraq war certainly did confirm America's aggressive prowar behaviour and that has to provide some indications on what caused this war and the easy solution for both sides not being possible. America has started about 40 different wars of aggression since the end of WW2. And fwiw, the Vietnam war can only be explained as US aggression, albeit with a lame excuse of stopping the spread of communism. Millions still died under US bombs, in any case. So all that is why Iraq has something to do with it.

The simple fact is, this is America's war against Russia, or vice versa, however one likes to frame it.

It's not as if anybody is unaware of that talking point now.

You decide which side's talking points are the truth.
 

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