Rumors In the Car Business

[editec]

Does anyone remember what the government did to help out Harley-Davidson back in the mid 80's? They put a tariff on imported motorcycles over 700ccs. That, plus the fact that the company is employee owned and not unionized, gave the company a little breathing room to get its ass back into shape. Now Harleys are coveted throughout the world.

I'm not sure what the government can do for GM, but it sure as heck must involve getting rid of the current union system, and it doesn't have to involve "bail out" with huge amounts of cash. That will only postpone the otherwise inevitable.

they could force the foreign companies to unionize.

they could impose tariffs on cars coming into this nation.

They could demand that cars built here were build from parts made here.

In other words, they could start being economic nationalists like made this nation great in its first 200 years.

 

[9 Volt]

Yes, I will forgive you. I will forgive you because you know part of the story, like most people do, but not the FULL history of how and why that happened.



Yes, I understand that. American Auto workers are well paid , AND unlike WalMarts, the American Auto Companies do NOT underpay their workers and force them onto a government paid program for health care.

In other words, the American taxpayer is not paying for the Auto workers health care, like we must do for WALMART's employees.

Why do you think 40,000,000 of us have no health care?




You mean all those companies which enjoyed a thirty year advantage of outlawing unions and not having to pay for their defence (because the Americans paid for us) so they could DUMP their autos into the American market at prices LESS THAN THEY COST IN their nations?

Yeah, those nations were nationalistic while our nation was internationalistic.

Who won WWWII, anyway? We won the war then lost the peace.





It is if you only understand half of the story, I'll admit that.

Take into account the history of why those companies have been losing market share for the last four decades and you might find yourself wondering what on earth our government was thinking all that time.




Ah...our government?



Yeah...what do you think I've been complaining about in post after post on this board?



Yeah, they came with no history, and no pensions, and no unions and so of course they've got the advantage that the American Auto workers (who took care of Americans for the last 100 years) do.



I'm driving a ford. Great truck. Built by Mazda, of course, here in America. Most of the parts? Made in Japan. Now that's 18th century colonialism updated under the smoke screen of Free market capitalism, when it has NOTHING WHATEVER do do with laissez fare economics....which is the BS that the internationalists who are seeking to destroy our countrs' goverment have been tell us.

NAV, I don't disagree with any of your points, because they have merit.

but like I say, your points are only part (and the least important part) of the story.

And if it was only the American Auto industry that was being put oour of business by FREE TRADE, I'd be far less emphatic about my complaint that the USA leadership has been systematically betraying this nation's government and working classes, too.

But now more than 30% of every thing we buy in this nation is made offshore. Now our imbalance of trade is completely unsustainable.

Every real social problem we have, health care, declining wages, infrstructure falling apart, you name it, cam be directly linked to the fact that we have been forcing companies in this country to offshore their industry.

And when say force, I mean they had NO CHOICE!

The USA doesn't make a single phone.

We invented that business.

What you are advocating, whether you realize it or not, isn't going to lead to a wonderful world for working people worlwide.

What you are supporting, unknowingly, leads to a two tier fuedal world where capital can take every advantage, and laborering people are tied to the land no less obviously than the serfs of Impreaial russia were.

What you are supporting now, out of your half understanding of what's going on, is going to lead to a United States which is weak and defenseless and when that happens, amigo, the rights you have as a citizen will meaningless.

It didn't have to go down the way it did for this nation or its middle class, and it doesn't have to continue going down either.

Free trade is anything but free, dude.

It is has taken our nation from a the world's net creditor, the industrial powerhouse of the world, the land with the wealthiest middle class on earth to a giant which is about to fall over from the debts it now owes to nations which we gave license to screw US in trade policies.

I do not blame other nations, I blame this nations FREE TRADERS.

Actually the correct spelling should be FREE TRAITORS, to be honest.

FREE TRADE is, FYI, a liberal policy, not a conservative one.

The USA did NOT become the nation it was practicing free trade.

Had we been a free trade nation we would still be a colony of Europe.

"FREE TRADE is, FYI, a liberal policy, not a conservative one."


Free trade is a liberal policy only in economic terms. The truth is it's conservatives (and Clinton) who've supported free trade. Politically speaking, free trade is conservative. It's one of the core principles of Friedman economics which has been the cornerstone of Republican (and Clinton) economic policy since Reagan.

None of this changes the fact that American automobiles have been, simply a poor consumer product.

 

[glockmail]

they could force the foreign companies to unionize.

they could impose tariffs on cars coming into this nation.

They could demand that cars built here were build from parts made here.

In other words, they could start being economic nationalists like made this nation great in its first 200 years.

1. You can't force foreigners to do anything. Why not force the unions out, by getting rid of the requirement that you must be part of the union to get a job there? That's what we do in NC and our economy's doing fine relative to the auto industry.

2. Most foreign label cars are made in the US.

3. Its a global market for parts as well. Although a tarrif on foreign parts might help out.

4. No problem with that one here.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

they could force the foreign companies to unionize.

they could impose tariffs on cars coming into this nation.

They could demand that cars built here were build from parts made here.

In other words, they could start being economic nationalists like made this nation great in its first 200 years.

... and Americans could stop whining about unions and recognize the tremendous role and benefit they have been to the American worker.

 

[Navy1960]

Yes, I will forgive you. I will forgive you because you know part of the story, like most people do, but not the FULL history of how and why that happened.



Yes, I understand that. American Auto workers are well paid , AND unlike WalMarts, the American Auto Companies do NOT underpay their workers and force them onto a government paid program for health care.

In other words, the American taxpayer is not paying for the Auto workers health care, like we must do for WALMART's employees.

Why do you think 40,000,000 of us have no health care?




You mean all those companies which enjoyed a thirty year advantage of outlawing unions and not having to pay for their defence (because the Americans paid for us) so they could DUMP their autos into the American market at prices LESS THAN THEY COST IN their nations?

Yeah, those nations were nationalistic while our nation was internationalistic.

Who won WWWII, anyway? We won the war then lost the peace.





It is if you only understand half of the story, I'll admit that.

Take into account the history of why those companies have been losing market share for the last four decades and you might find yourself wondering what on earth our government was thinking all that time.




Ah...our government?



Yeah...what do you think I've been complaining about in post after post on this board?



Yeah, they came with no history, and no pensions, and no unions and so of course they've got the advantage that the American Auto workers (who took care of Americans for the last 100 years) do.



I'm driving a ford. Great truck. Built by Mazda, of course, here in America. Most of the parts? Made in Japan. Now that's 18th century colonialism updated under the smoke screen of Free market capitalism, when it has NOTHING WHATEVER do do with laissez fare economics....which is the BS that the internationalists who are seeking to destroy our countrs' goverment have been tell us.

NAV, I don't disagree with any of your points, because they have merit.

but like I say, your points are only part (and the least important part) of the story.

And if it was only the American Auto industry that was being put oour of business by FREE TRADE, I'd be far less emphatic about my complaint that the USA leadership has been systematically betraying this nation's government and working classes, too.

But now more than 30% of every thing we buy in this nation is made offshore. Now our imbalance of trade is completely unsustainable.

Every real social problem we have, health care, declining wages, infrstructure falling apart, you name it, cam be directly linked to the fact that we have been forcing companies in this country to offshore their industry.

And when say force, I mean they had NO CHOICE!

The USA doesn't make a single phone.

We invented that business.

What you are advocating, whether you realize it or not, isn't going to lead to a wonderful world for working people worlwide.

What you are supporting, unknowingly, leads to a two tier fuedal world where capital can take every advantage, and laborering people are tied to the land no less obviously than the serfs of Impreaial russia were.

What you are supporting now, out of your half understanding of what's going on, is going to lead to a United States which is weak and defenseless and when that happens, amigo, the rights you have as a citizen will meaningless.

It didn't have to go down the way it did for this nation or its middle class, and it doesn't have to continue going down either.

Free trade is anything but free, dude.

It is has taken our nation from a the world's net creditor, the industrial powerhouse of the world, the land with the wealthiest middle class on earth to a giant which is about to fall over from the debts it now owes to nations which we gave license to screw US in trade policies.

I do not blame other nations, I blame this nations FREE TRADERS.

Actually the correct spelling should be FREE TRAITORS, to be honest.

FREE TRADE is, FYI, a liberal policy, not a conservative one.

The USA did NOT become the nation it was practicing free trade.

Had we been a free trade nation we would still be a colony of Europe.

Yes I do in fact understand the full situation more so than you know, in fact I am a Free Trader as well as a Fair Trader as IMHO in order for any society to be truely economically strong in the comming years they two cannot be mutually exclusive. After WW2 which you are correct we did win, the Japanese were devestated. Then in the early 1970's what I like to call the frist time the Big Three failed to respond to a changing market and economy , it opened the door for the consumer that demanded products that suited the needs to fit that ecnonomy. Then came the crisis in the early 80's and guess what? same story, along came Chrysler on bended knee to the Federal Govt. asking for a "bailout" using much the same arguments they are using right now. Then fast foward to the next crisis, different year, the same thing, The big Three again fail to respond to ever changing market demands. The bottom line is this, these car companies sell a product to the consumer and it's the consumer that drives the market. If they fail to meet the demands of the consumer or respond fast enough or do not have enough flexibility to do so then they will constantly find themselves in this situation. Why do you think these foreign car companies for the most part build plants in "right to work" states? They do so, to avoid all the mistakes that the big three have made over the years and to avoid the massive costs associated with it. The other issue here is the culture, and that culture tells you that you have some heritage or right to a job, when in fact you don't. Yes, all those many generations of Americans worked hard to create something better for you and I ,but not so to provide you or I with a job right. While I would never wish to see any of the American car companies die, nor do I want to continue to lend and more credence to failure which these companies have done on a grand scale for years. I honestly don't blame the UAW for these failures because ultimately the companies are the one's that submit to the demands made upon them by the Unions. However, if the company finds itself in a position where the product it produces out of the gate is saddled with costs that the competition is not then that company must have the flexibility to cut them. One more thing I will submit here too, and that is that Toyota, Honda, and other compaines who choose to build cars in this country are no less American built than your Ford or GM Truck and as such this talk of leveling the playing field for the Big Three because of their own shoddy business practices will solve nothing. You want to help American car builders here is what you do, You trim the product lines to meet the demands of the market, increase fuel standards, move manufacturing to lower cost states if the UAW is unwilling to renegotiate salary and benefits packages that are more in line with 21st standards and not 1950's standards. Then apply the same import tariffs on ALL car's and truck imported into the United States on a country by country basis that are applied to exported car's and trucks to those countries, and yes those include the GM, Ford, and Chrysler imports into the United States too.

 

[Navy1960]

they could force the foreign companies to unionize.

they could impose tariffs on cars coming into this nation.

They could demand that cars built here were build from parts made here.

In other words, they could start being economic nationalists like made this nation great in its first 200 years.

Won't happen on the Unionization thing edit, because those companies will increase operations in the already number of "right to work states" they are in now. The Tariff issue however, could apply to everyone, including GM, Ford and Chrysler. As I said in my previous post though, while all these are suggestions are decent on the surface, if you want to level the field and allow the big three to compete them you cannot exclude these Union contracts. Let's be honest here for once, while it's all well and good that a UAW worker may make 33.00 an hour on the assembly line and add to the benefits, retirements, healthcare you end up around 85.00 and hour it is in the end a detriment to the survival to the company itself. So I ask you what good are all these benefits and salary if you don't have a job to get them, or the company you work for no longer exists? See what I mean? at some point the UAW needs to see that the survival of the companies that the workers they represent work for may mean to compromise.

 

[Vel]

Well isn't this lovely. American taxpayers being asked to bailout U.S. automakers so that GM can provide jobs for Russians. I guess our money can help Ford's struggling plants in Mexico too. I'm calling my senators to ask them if our tax dollars will benefit GM's foreign investments. I'd suggest others do the same.

　

Russia: General Motors Opens New Plant; Will Build SUVs and New Chevy Cruze

　

Russia: General Motors Opens New Plant; Will Build SUVs and New Chevy Cruze

Date posted: 11-07-2008

ST. PETERSBURG, Russia — Amid the gloom and doom of the economic meltdown that has seen auto sales plummet worldwide, the opening of General Motors' new $300 million plant, declared open on Friday here, is a rare bright spot.

The facility, located in the Shushary industrial area near St. Petersburg that is home to four other auto plants, is GM's high-stakes bet on an emerging market in the wake of steep drops in its U.S. sales.

 

[Toro]

All there are merely delayed bankruptcies.

The companies will continue to exist even after they file although they will be slimmed down.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

1. You can't force foreigners to do anything. Why not force the unions out, by getting rid of the requirement that you must be part of the union to get a job there? That's what we do in NC and our economy's doing fine relative to the auto industry.

4. No problem with that one here.

Downturn Hits North Carolina

The global economic crisis has struck indiscriminately at North Carolina's most resilient industries, bringing layoffs to companies in building supplies, semiconductors, pharmaceuticals, textiles, direct mailings and computers. In the past few weeks alone, the roiling economy has taken out several thousand jobs in the state as businesses reduce production and close facilities.

Statewide joblessness of 7 percent (NOTE: Higher than the national average) is at a six-year high and climbing. There were 54,000 fewer people employed in September than a year ago at the same time. For each worker who loses a paycheck, less cash gets pumped back into the system.

The worst of the storm could take about six months to pass, but the effects may be felt well into 2010, experts say. Economists predict the downturn could leave more than 8 percent of the state's workers without jobs, a level not seen in a quarter century.

---

Thousands are laid off even in relatively hardy industries; joblessness could top 8 percent.

newsobserver.com | Economic downturn hits N.C.

Which States Have the Best Economies

According to research by The Kaufmann Foundation, Massachusetts, New Jersey and Maryland have the best economic climate. That's because they are successfully adapting to a global economy by attracting innovative and entrepreneurial companies. For that reason, these states are most likely to create and retain high-value and well-paying jobs. The states that are improving the most are Wisconsin, Vermont, North Dakota and Rhode Island.

The states at the bottom of the list are West Virginia, Mississippi, South Dakota, Arkansas and Alabama. Their economies are more reliant on manufacturing than information technology. The states that are declining most rapidly are Missouri, Maine, Oregon, Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma and Hawaii. (Source: Kauffman Foundation, 2007 State New Economy Index)

Which States Have the Best Economies?

NONE of the states listed as best economies are right to work states.

Alabama, Arkansas, and Mississippi, all listed at the bottom, are all right to work states.

 

[dilloduck]

According to research by The Kaufmann Foundation, Massachusetts, New Jersey and Maryland have the best economic climate. That's because they are successfully adapting to a global economy by attracting innovative and entrepreneurial companies.

To include foreign labor ?

 

[BlackAsCoal]

To include foreign labor ?

Adapting to a global economy does not mean hiring foreign workers. It means the diversifcation of your busness to adapt to a global market.

 

[glockmail]

Downturn Hits North Carolina

.....
Statewide joblessness of 7 percent (NOTE: Higher than the national average).....

Nice strawman. Again, our economy's doing fine relative to the auto industry.

 

[dilloduck]

Adapting to a global economy does not mean hiring foreign workers. It means the diversifcation of your busness to adapt to a global market.

Understood----that's why I added the question mark. What do these companies produce that the rest of the world wants so badly ?

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Nice strawman. Again, our economy's doing fine relative to the auto industry.

Every state is doing fine relative to the auto industry .. except some of those right to work states at the bottom perhaps .. but the point you were making is that by kicking out the unions as North Carolina has, thus a "right to work state", your state is doing just fine .. and it isn't.

My point is that many states that allow unions, thus non-right to work states, are doing better than North Carolina and every other state that don't allow unions.

Might I also add ..

"The states that are improving the most are Wisconsin, Vermont, North Dakota and Rhode Island."

NONE of those states are right to work states either.

 

[glockmail]

....

"The states that are improving the most are Wisconsin, Vermont, North Dakota and Rhode Island."

NONE of those states are right to work states either.

"Most improved" means that they sucked to begin with.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Understood----that's why I added the question mark. What do these companies produce that the rest of the world wants so badly ?

I'm not the expert, but I would think it means positioning your products to suit the tastes and culture od other countries. Nearly all of the fast food businesses that do business overseas do just that.

Europe needs smaller cars .. given they pay $5. a gallon for gas

Clothing manufactuers need to make smaller sizes

If you're an umbrella corporation, it means diversifying your products based on regional needs, having each seperate business taliored to meet the needs of its own customers, wherever they are.

Not sure what specific products they produce that would be different, but certainly taliored according to demand.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

"Most improved" means that they sucked to begin with.

You mean they sucked more than Alabama or MISSISSIPPI?

I seriously doubt that.

 

[seth1492]

What needs to happen is that the car industry needs to get serious about what they do! If they want to compete they need to do something different then what they have been doing the last 30 years! Seriously, their cars and trucks are just modernized in looks and a few in-dash accessories every couple of years. No improvements in mpg, safety, power, or price! Maybe if they wake up and start to return to intuitiveness and innovation people would buy them again. I mean we are finally realizing that just because your "American" doesn't mean we should buy your crappy products. I am a patriotic american, but buying crap just because it is Made in the USA doesn't do it for me.

 

[WillowTree]

They either need to succeed or fail on their own, it's not the taxpayer's problem that they have sucked at what they do for so long and now are bleeding cash. Congress sucks too btw.

 

[DavidS2]

I don't get it. What cars has Ford made since 2003 that have sucked? When they re-designed the F-150, the Explorer and the Expedition, they came up with GREAT concepts. The Focus is a great car, though I'm a little biased. They phased out the Taurus and came back with the Fusion and Five Hundred which was re-named the Taurus. Fords cars and SUV's are great - their prices are OK and Ford Motor Credit spikes the residuals on the leases to give you cheap lease payments.