Roger Waters on Russia and Ukraine.

[Ringo]

Berliner Zeitung interview - Roger Waters

THE TRUTH WILL SET US FREE
Amidst the outrageous and despicable smear campaign by the Israel lobby to denounce me as an anti-Semite, which I am not, am not, and never will be. Against the backdrop of them trying to silence me because I give my voice to the 75-year struggle for equal human rights for all my brothers and sisters in Palestine/Israel, regardless of their ethnicity, religion or nationality. With the Israeli lobby trying to cancel my series of concerts in Germany, 85% of which have already been sold out, the national newspaper Berliner Zeitung courageously published a detailed interview with me today in its Saturday edition. Thank you very much, gentlemen.

And to my fans who have bought tickets for the upcoming concerts in Europe I say:

Don't be afraid! I will definitely be there!

I won't let any wild horses get me down that road. Nor will this apartheid selection help.

THE TRUTH WILL SET US FREE.

Love, Roger.

Roger Waters can rightfully claim to be the inspiration for Pink Floyd. He conceived the concept and wrote all the lyrics for the masterpiece The Dark Side of the Moon, he wrote most of the music and all the lyrics for the albums Animals and The Wall, and the album The Final Cut was composed by himself. So Roger is planning to go to Germany on his current This Is Not A Drill tour in May to present this legacy of the classic Pink Floyd period. But there's one problem: Because of the controversial statements he's made about the war in Ukraine and the politics of the state of Israel, his concerts in Poland have already been canceled, and in Germany, Jewish and Christian organizations are demanding the same. It's time to talk to the 79-year-old musician: What does he mean? Could it be that by cancelling the concerts, he was simply misunderstood? Would it be legitimate to exclude him from the conversation? Or has there emerged a societal problem of wanting to ban dissenters - like Waters - from the conversation?

The musician receives visitors at his residence in the south of England. Greeting, open, unpretentious, but determined - this is how he will remain throughout the conversation. First, however, he wants to showcase something special: In the studio of his home, he plays us new versions of three compositions from The Dark Side of the Moon, which, incidentally, turns fifty years old in March.

"The new concept is meant to reflect the meaning of the work, to bring out the heart and soul of the album," he says, "musically and spiritually. I'm the only one who sings my songs on these new recordings, and there are no rock 'n' roll guitar solos. It's about the voice of reason. And it says: it's not the power of our kings and leaders and their supposed connection to God that matters. What really matters is the connection between us as human beings, the whole human community. We humans are scattered all over the globe, but we are all connected because we all come from Africa. We are all brothers and sisters. Or at least distant cousins. But the way we treat each other is destroying our home, planet Earth, and faster than we can imagine. For example, right here, right now, in the year 2023, we are engaged in an already year-long proxy war with Russia in Ukraine. Why?

Well, a little history: in 2004, Russian President Vladimir Putin reached out to the West in an attempt to build the architecture of peace in Europe. It's all documented. He explained that Western plans to invite Ukraine into NATO after the first Maidan coup posed a completely unacceptable existential threat to the Russian Federation. He said that by doing so they would cross a red line that could end in war. So let's try to get together at the negotiating table and agree on a peaceful future. But his well-meaning aspirations were rejected by the United States and its NATO allies. Since then, he has consistently defended his position, while NATO has consistently defended its "Fuck you. And here we are now."

Mr. Waters, you talk about the voice of reason, the deep connection of all people. But when it comes to the war in Ukraine, you talk a lot about the mistakes of the United States and the West, not about Russia's war and Russian aggression. Why aren't you protesting the actions taken by Russia? I know you supported Pussy Riot and other human rights organizations in Russia. Why aren't you attacking Putin?

"First of all, if you read my letter to Putin and my articles about starting the war in February..."

...You called him a "gangster."

"Yes, there was that. But I may have changed my mind a bit in the last year. There's a podcast from Cyprus called The Duran. The hosts there speak Russian and can read Putin's speeches in the original. Their comments on this are clear to me. The most important reason for supplying arms to Ukraine is clearly profit for the arms industry. And I wonder: is Putin a bigger gangster than Joe Biden and all those in charge of American policy since World War II? I'm not so sure! Did Putin invade Vietnam or Iraq? Did he?"
The most important reason for supplying weapons is the following: it is to support Ukraine, to win the war, and to stop Russian aggression. You seem to see it differently.

"Yes. Maybe I shouldn't have, but now I'm more open to listening to what Putin is really saying. Listening to independent sources of information, I understand that he governs cautiously, making decisions based on consensus in the Russian government. There are also critical intellectuals in Russia who have opposed U.S. imperialism since the 1950s. And the central idea has always been, "Ukraine is a red line. The country must remain neutral, a buffer territory. If it doesn't, we don't know where that will lead." And we still don't know, but it could end up in World War III."

Last February, it was Putin who decided to attack.

"He started what he still calls a 'special military operation.' He started it, if I understand it correctly, for the following reasons: 1. We want to stop the potential genocide of the Russian-speaking population of Donbass. 2. We want to fight Nazism in Ukraine.
There is this Alina, a teenager from Ukraine, with whom I corresponded in long letters. I wrote: "I hear you. I understand your pain." She wrote back, thanking me, but stressing that she was sure I was wrong: "I am 200% sure there are no Nazis in Ukraine." I answered again: "I'm sorry, Alina, but you are wrong. How can you live in Ukraine and not know that?"

There is no evidence that there was a genocide in Ukraine. Yet Putin has repeatedly emphasized that he wants Ukraine back in his empire. Putin told former German Chancellor Angela Merkel that the saddest day of his life was in 1989 (1991, note) when the Soviet Union collapsed.

"Isn't the word 'Ukraine' the Russian word for 'okra'? For a long time it was part of Russia and the Soviet Union. It's a complicated history. I believe that during World War II, most of the population of western Ukraine chose to cooperate with the Nazis. They killed Jews, gypsies, communists, and anyone else the Third Reich wanted to destroy. To this day there is a conflict between Western Ukraine and Southeastern Ukraine (Crimea and Donbass). There are many Russian-speaking Ukrainians because this territory has been part of Russia for hundreds of years. How can you solve such a problem? It can't be done by the Kiev government, nor by a victory for the Russians. Putin has always emphasized that he's not interested in taking over Western Ukraine or invading Poland or any other country. What he is saying is this: I want to protect the Russian-speaking population in those parts of Ukraine where they feel threatened by the extreme right-wing governments influenced by the Maidan coup d'etat in Kiev. The 2014 coup d'état, which admittedly was orchestrated by the United States."

We have spoken to many Ukrainians who can prove otherwise. The U.S. may have helped support the 2014 protests. But on the whole, authoritative sources and eyewitness accounts suggest that the protests arose from within - by the will of the Ukrainian people.

"I wonder what kind of Ukrainians you've talked to? I can imagine that some claim exactly that. But on the other side of that coin is this: the vast majority of Ukrainians in Crimea and Donbass voted in referendums to reunite with the Russian Federation."

In February you were surprised that Putin attacked Ukraine. How can you be so sure he won't go further? Your confidence in Russia doesn't seem to be undermined, despite the bloody war of aggression on its part.

"And how can I be sure that the U.S. won't risk starting a nuclear war with China? They are already provoking the Chinese by meddling in Taiwan. But first, they would like to destroy Russia. Anyone with an IQ above a critical minimum understands this from reading the news. And even Americans admit it."

You annoy a lot of people because your remarks sound like you're defending Putin.

"In the background of Biden. The US/NATO provocations that took place before February 2022 were marginal and very damaging to the interests of all the common people of Europe."

Would you not boycott Russia?

"I think it's counterproductive. Here you are living in Europe. How much does the U.S. charge you for gas supplies? Five times more than their own citizens pay for gas. In England, people are now saying "eat or drown" because the poor can barely afford to heat their homes. Western governments need to realize that we are all brothers and sisters. During World War II, they saw what happens when they try to wage war against Russia. Russians will unite and fight to the last ruble and the last square meter of land defending the homeland. Just like any other nation. I think that if the US can convince its citizens, you and many others, that Russia is the real enemy and Putin is the new Hitler, it will be easier for them to steal from the poor to give to the rich, and to encourage more wars, in the same spirit as this mediated war in Ukraine. This may seem like an extreme political stance to you, but apparently the history I study and the news I analyze is just different from yours. You can't believe everything you see on TV or read in the newspapers. All I am trying to accomplish with my new writings and my statements and speeches is for our brothers and sisters in power to stop the war. And that people realize that our brothers and sisters in Russia live under no more repressive dictatorship than you do in Germany, or I do in the United States. I mean, if we had the power to stop the bloodshed between young Ukrainians and Russians, would we really choose to continue the bloodshed?"

Well, for example, we could do this interview. In Russia, something like this would not be so easy... But back to Ukraine. What might be your political counterproposal for a meaningful Western policy toward Ukraine?

"We need to get all of our leaders around the table and get them to say, "No more war!" And from that point we could start a dialogue."

Can you imagine living in Russia?

"Yes, of course, why not? It would be just like with my neighbors here in the south of England. We could go to the pub and talk openly about them not fighting and killing Americans or Ukrainians. As long as we can trade with each other, sell each other gas, make sure we're warm in the winter, we'll be fine. Russians are no different from you and me: there are good people and there are idiots, just like everywhere else.

 

[Ringo]

Then why don't you give concerts in Russia?

"Not for ideological reasons. It's just not possible at the moment. I'm not boycotting Russia, that would be ridiculous. I've played 38 concerts in the US. If I were to boycott any country for political reasons, the first one would be the US. They are the main aggressor."

If you look at the conflict neutrally, Putin looks like the aggressor. Do you think we've all been brainwashed?

"Yes, beyond a shadow of a doubt. You asked that question while being brainwashed."

Is it because we consume Western media?

"Exactly. The "unprovoked invasion" narrative is heavily planted in the West. Hmmm... Anyone with even half a brain can understand that the conflict in Ukraine was provoked beyond measure. It's probably the most provoked invasion ever."

When your statements about the war in Ukraine caused you to cancel concerts in Poland, did you feel misunderstood?

"Yes. It's a big step backwards. It's a manifestation of Russophobia. People in Poland obviously trust Western propaganda in the same way. I would like to say to them: you, brothers and sisters, let your leaders stop the war. So that we can stop even for a moment and think, "What is this war about?" It's about making the rich in Western countries even richer and the poor around the world even poorer. The opposite of Robin Hood. Jeff Bezos has a fortune of about $200 billion, and yet thousands of people in Washington, D.C., alone live in cardboard boxes on the street."

Ukrainians are standing up for their country. This is how most people in Germany see it, which is why your statements cause horror, even anger. Your views on Israel are met with similar criticism here. This is why there's a discussion now about whether your concerts in Germany should be cancelled. How do you react to this?

"Oh, you know, that's what the Israel lobby activists like Malka Goldstein-Wolf are demanding. It's idiotic. They already tried to cancel my concert in Cologne in 2017 and even persuaded local radio stations to join."

Is it too easy to call all these people idiots?

"Of course, they're not all idiots. But they probably read the Bible and seem to believe that anyone who speaks out against Israeli fascism in the Holy Land is an anti-Semite. This is really an unreasonable position, because to do so you would have to deny that people lived in Palestine before the Israelis settled there. You have to follow the legend that says, "A land without a people is a people without a land. What nonsense! The history here is clear enough. To this day, the indigenous, Jewish population is a minority. All Jewish Israelis immigrated from Eastern Europe or the United States.

You once compared the state of Israel to Nazi Germany. Do you still hold to that comparison?

"Yes, of course. The Israelis are committing genocide. By the way, so did Great Britain during our colonial period. For example, the English committed genocide against the indigenous people of North America. So did the Dutch, the Spanish, the Portuguese and even the Germans in their colonies. They were all part of the unjust colonial era. And we Englishmen also killed and plundered in India, Southeast Asia, China... We considered ourselves inherently superior to the indigenous peoples, just as the Israelis do in Palestine. But we were not superior, and neither were the Israelis."

NEW INTERVIEW WITH ROGER WATERS (PART TWO)

The interview was published in the German newspaper Berliner Zeitung on February 4, 2023.

You are an Englishman, and you have a very different view of the history of the state of Israel than we Germans do. In Germany, criticism of Israel is treated with caution for good reasons. Germany has a historical duty that the country has to fulfill.

"I understand this very well and have been trying to deal with it for twenty years. In my opinion, your, as you put it, duty and national guilt for what the Nazis did between 1933 and 1945 should not require your society to walk around with blinders on regarding Israel. Wouldn't it be more proper to use your bitter experience to tear those shades off and support equal human rights for all your brothers and sisters around the world, regardless of race, nationality and creed?"

Are you questioning Israel's right to exist?

"In my opinion, Israel has a right to exist if it is a true democracy, where no one group, religious or ethnic, enjoys human rights more than any other. But unfortunately, we see what is happening in Israel and Palestine. The Israeli government says that only Jews should enjoy certain rights. So Israel cannot be called democratic. They are very open about it, these laws are enshrined in Israeli law. And now many people in Germany and certainly many Jews in Israel are open to a different vision. Twenty years ago we couldn't have a conversation about the state of Israel in which the terms "genocide" and "apartheid" were mentioned. And now I would say that it is impossible to have this conversation without using such terms, because they accurately describe the reality in the occupied territory. I see it more and more clearly since I became part of the BDS (boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel, ed.) movement.

Do you think they would agree with you here in England?

"I can't say for sure, because I've hardly lived here for the last twenty years. I have to go to the pub and talk to people. But I suspect that more and more people agree with me every day. By the way, I have many Jewish friends who agree with me wholeheartedly. And that's one of the reasons why it's so crazy to try to discredit me as a Jew-hater. I have a close friend in New York, a Jew, who said to me the other day, "A few years ago I thought you were crazy, I thought you were crazy. And now I see that you were right in your stance on the politics of the state of Israel, and we, the Jewish community in the United States, were wrong." My New York friend was clearly upset saying this. He's a good man."

The BDS movement is under sanctions from the German Bundestag. The success of the BDS movement may ultimately mean the end of the state of Israel. Do you see it differently?

"Yes, Israel has to change its laws. They could say: we changed our minds, people are allowed to have all their rights, even if they are not Jews. That's it. In that case, we won't need BDS anymore."

Have you lost friends over your support of BDS?

"It's interesting that you ask that. I don't know exactly, but I highly doubt it. Friendship is a powerful thing. I'd say I've had about ten real friends. I couldn't lose a friend because of my political views, because friends love each other, and friendship breeds conversation, and conversation breeds understanding. If a friend said: "Roger, I saw an inflatable pig with a Star of David flying over the audience at your The Wall concerts!", I would clarify the context and make it clear that there was nothing anti-Semitic about it, either explicitly or subconsciously.

What was the context, then?

"It was on The Wall show during a performance of the song Goodbye Blue Sky. On the screen behind the band you could see B-52 bombers dropping symbols instead of bombs: dollar signs, crucifixes, sickles and hammers, stars and crescents, a McDonald's sign... and Stars of David. This is theatrical satire, an expression of my belief that extending these ideologies or products to people is an act of aggression, the opposite of humanity, the opposite of creating love and peace among us brothers and sisters. My point is that in the wrong hands all these ideologies represented by these symbols can be evil."

What is your ideology? Are you an anarchist? Are you against any power that people establish in society?

"I call myself a humanist, a citizen of the world. And my loyalty and respect belong to all people, regardless of their background, nationality or religion."

Would you perform in Israel today if you were allowed?

"No, of course not. That would be crossing the picket line. I've been writing letters to colleagues in the music industry for years, trying to convince them not to perform in Israel. Sometimes they don't agree, saying, 'But it's a way to make peace. We have to go out there and try to convince them." Well, we're all entitled to our opinions. But the fact is that in 2005 the whole Palestinian civil society asked me to observe a cultural boycott. And who am I to tell an entire society living under brutal occupation that I know the problem better than they do?"

It is very provocative to say that you are willing to speak in Moscow and not in Israel.

"It's interesting that you say that, given that there is no apartheid state based on the genocide of the indigenous people in Moscow.

In Russia, ethnic minorities are severely discriminated against. Among other things, more ethnic non-Russians are sent to war than ethnic Russians.

"It's like you're asking me to look at Russia from the current Russophobic point of view. I, on the other hand, prefer to see it differently. Although, like I said, I don't speak Russian and I don't live in Russia, I'm in foreign territory."

What do you think of the fact that Pink Floyd recorded a new song with Ukrainian musician Andriy Hlyvnyuk for the first time in thirty years?

"I've seen this video and I'm not surprised. But for me it's very, very sad. It's so alien to me, this action is so lacking in humanity... It calls for more war. Pink Floyd is a name I've always associated with. It was a huge period in my life, a very important event. To associate that name now with something like this... It makes me sad about the current proxy war. And they didn't demand, "Stop the war, stop the carnage, get our leaders together to talk!" They issued just a contentless waving of the yellow and blue flag... I wrote in one of my letters to a Ukrainian teenager, Alina, "I will not raise a flag in this conflict. No one. Not the Ukrainian flag, not the Russian flag, not the American flag."

After the fall of the Wall, you performed The Wall in a reunited Berlin, with optimistic expectations, of course. Did you think you could contribute to that future with your art, make a difference?

"Of course. I still believe that to this day. If you have political principles and you are an artist, the two are inextricably intertwined. By the way, that's one of the reasons why I left Pink Floyd: I had those principles. The others either didn't have them or they were different.

Do you consider yourself equal parts musician and political activist?

"Yes, sometimes I lean toward one, sometimes I lean toward the other."

Will your current tour really be your last?

(laughs) "I have no idea. The tour is subtitled The First Farewell Tour, and it's obviously a joke. After all, old rock stars usually use the slogan 'The Farewell Tour' as a sales tool. Then they sometimes retire, and sometimes they go on another farewell tour, and that's okay."

Do you want to keep sending something to the world, to make a difference?

"I love good music, I love good literature - especially English and Russian and German. That's why I like the idea that people are able to notice and understand what I do."

Then why don't you refrain from making political statements?

"Because I am who I am. If I wasn't this person with strong political beliefs, I wouldn't have written The Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here, The Wall, Amused to Death and other things."

Thank you very much for the interview.

Berliner Zeitung interview - Roger Waters

BERLINER ZEITUNG 4th FEBRUARY 2023 THE TRUTH WILL SET US FREE Against the backdrop of the outrageous and despicable smear campaign by the ISRAELI […]

rogerwaters.com

 

[BS Filter]

Roger Waters is nuts.

 

[Ringo]

Roger Waters is nuts.

Your opinion is very important to us. Keep expressing your wise thoughts, little man.

 

[pknopp]

His argument is mine. Neither side of any of these equations are innocent. There are not good players and bad players here. None of it is justifiable.

 

[BS Filter]

Your opinion is very important to us. Keep expressing your wise thoughts, little man.

At least my thoughts are rational. I don't support backwards tribal terrorist religions that deny women basic human rights and strap bombs on their children like Waters does.