Right wing Sandy Hook "truthers". Oh brother!

[nodoginnafight]

Oh Lord.....I dont know why I bother explaining complex things to right wingers sometimes. But..Im a patient man, so I'll keep trying.

Ok rednecks, here goes....

When something seems odd at a crime scene, you ask: "How could this have happened?"

Then, you offer up any number of ways, even the UNLIKELY.

You rule them out one by one.

Then, you take your evidence and see if it matches. If not, restart the process.

Thats as simple as I can make it for you idiots. So, when you wonder why there are conflicting accounts about where a gun was found on a mass casualty scene, I told you how. There are a few possible ways. Some extremely unlikely, others very possible.
Somedays, its just impossible to reason with you people.

The failure to grasp the concept of Occam's Razor is the link to all conspiracy theorists.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Oh Lord.....I dont know why I bother explaining complex things to right wingers sometimes. But..Im a patient man, so I'll keep trying.

Ok rednecks, here goes....

When something seems odd at a crime scene, you ask: "How could this have happened?"

Then, you offer up any number of ways, even the UNLIKELY.

You rule them out one by one.

Then, you take your evidence and see if it matches. If not, restart the process.

Thats as simple as I can make it for you idiots. So, when you wonder why there are conflicting accounts about where a gun was found on a mass casualty scene, I told you how. There are a few possible ways. Some extremely unlikely, others very possible.

Somedays, its just impossible to reason with you people.

Why I talk to someone who defends the cops not telling the truth I'll never know

 

[bucs90]

The right wing is somehow confused that a bunch of cops showed up to an active shooter situation, and there was a loose assault rifle somewhere- either in a car or in the school- and some cop picked it up and secured it, not knowing if there was still a gunman alive, if he was alone, they didnt know what the hell was going on, but on any active shooter response you have 2 primary goals:

1- Get to the killer, and stop the killer
2- Secure loose weapons on the way, so he cant circle around and use them

Once the killing is stopped, then they can proceed to traditional crime scene processing. This wasn't a gang murder or a domestic murder. It was a mass killing, and the tactics are different.

Could that gun have been in the car, and a cop running to the school passing by "clears the car" as they are trained, sees a live gun, SECURES IT, and moves on, and then later there is confusion about where the gun initially was at?

Yes. Of course. Not only possible, but probable. People who have never been in chaotic situations like that, or major crime scenes, obviously wont grasp these tactics.

There was no report of a loose rifle. That's a strawman you created.

Your making up facts not in evidence.

By your logic, the cop cleared every car in the parking lot. Or did he just clear the one that happened to have a rifle in the trunk?

I have doubts whether you have ever been a part of a major crime scene. If you have then you are about incompetent as they come.

Haha, oh boy, here we go. Yes, "clearing the car" is swat team 101 basics. Especially the car that is illegally parked at the front door of the school that just got shot up that you are about to run right past. Only a ******* moron would pass that car without "clearing it". Even the trunk!!! Nobody hides in the trunk though, right (DC Snipers)?

My resume' isn't of your concern. But I worked South Atlanta for 8 years. I saw enough of 'em.

 

[bucs90]

Oh Lord.....I dont know why I bother explaining complex things to right wingers sometimes. But..Im a patient man, so I'll keep trying.

Ok rednecks, here goes....

When something seems odd at a crime scene, you ask: "How could this have happened?"

Then, you offer up any number of ways, even the UNLIKELY.

You rule them out one by one.

Then, you take your evidence and see if it matches. If not, restart the process.

Thats as simple as I can make it for you idiots. So, when you wonder why there are conflicting accounts about where a gun was found on a mass casualty scene, I told you how. There are a few possible ways. Some extremely unlikely, others very possible.

Somedays, its just impossible to reason with you people.

Why I talk to someone who defends the cops not telling the truth I'll never know

Why I talk to someone who truly thinks that the Newton Police and Connecticut State Police have plotted some conspiracy to take your guns is something I'll never know.

 

[whitehall]

Yesterday we saw the same thing cut and pasted from Salon and today it's US News. To paraphrase left wing democrat Rahm Emanuel, "Never let a crisis (or a tragedy) go to waste if you think you can use it against your political opponent and make a buck on the side". The story is pure tabloid sleaze and insulting to the poor families.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Ah, yes, let me defer to YOUR knowledge....from all the crime scenes you have been on and taken part with investigating: Go ahead....tell me?


Next, since you have no experience with the above, have you ever trained one single minute in crime scene response? Well, every SWAT team in Americe will tell you the same thing:

- If you respond to an active shooter incident, meaning a person or persons is actively killing people, and you show up, and you see ANY GUN laying around, any at all, you SECURE IT. You dont know if there are more suspects around, hiding, hunting, whatever, so if you SEE A GUN, you SECURE IT. You dont leave loose guns laying around until we KNOW the scene is secure.

Now, what does that mean? It means that a few things could have happened:

- Cops show up, see a rifle laying on the ground, and throw it in a locked car (suspects). This is very unlikely in my opinion, but who knows, people under stress do weird things, even those trained to deal with it.

- Cops show up, chaos is in the air, and one sees a rifle in the back of an unknown car (they didnt know whose car it was at the initial arrival). A cop decides to take that gun out, SECURE IT, and keep moving. Now THIS is the detail I find very likely. I wouldn't pass that gun without securing it. WHO would? You dont know if the guy is still alive, is he alone, is he hiding? Im sure not leaving a gun laying there for someone to get to.

So, is it possible someone took that gun out of the car to SECURE IT, and there were conflicting reports on scene like "The gun was in the school" and "No, the gun was in the car"??? Absolutely.

And there are probably dozens of details like this to sort out.

You people who have never worked a crime scene are simply ignorant to the realities of it. You watch too much CSI and Fox. You need to shut the **** up, let the people do their jobs, and you'll get your "troof" when the time comes.

You are an idiot!

A cop finding a rifle is going to secure it by putting it in the suspects car?

You know that's bullshit so why do you make such an asinine comment?

And how can someone see a rifle in the trunk of a car?

There was a rifle found in the trunk and there is video of the police retrieving it. And it was a Bushmaster not an AR 15 as reported by the media.

You miissed the word "UNLIKELY".

I didnt see the video to be honest. Im explaining how a crime scene can be changed, by the good guys, without evil intent. Could the gun have originally been in the school/car and ended up in the other? Yes. Weird shit happens under mass stress. You wouldnt know that, but it does.

Why haven't I seen the video? Because I haven't spent hours surfing the net looking for "the troof".

I trust the cops will do a good job, and will listen when they state the final conclusive account of the incident.

You should too.

Oh, and dumbass, a Bushmaster IS an AR15.

No I didn't miss anything. The fact you would even mention such an insane theory is
very telling.

No dumbass I own a gun shop an AR 15 is a registered trademark of Colt. Bushmaster along with other maunfacturers makes similar weapons like the M-4 Carbine, Bushmaster XM 15...etc.

 

[Jarhead]

The right wing is somehow confused that a bunch of cops showed up to an active shooter situation, and there was a loose assault rifle somewhere- either in a car or in the school- and some cop picked it up and secured it, not knowing if there was still a gunman alive, if he was alone, they didnt know what the hell was going on, but on any active shooter response you have 2 primary goals:

1- Get to the killer, and stop the killer
2- Secure loose weapons on the way, so he cant circle around and use them

Once the killing is stopped, then they can proceed to traditional crime scene processing. This wasn't a gang murder or a domestic murder. It was a mass killing, and the tactics are different.

Could that gun have been in the car, and a cop running to the school passing by "clears the car" as they are trained, sees a live gun, SECURES IT, and moves on, and then later there is confusion about where the gun initially was at?

Yes. Of course. Not only possible, but probable. People who have never been in chaotic situations like that, or major crime scenes, obviously wont grasp these tactics.

In bold?

Wrong.

The loose weapon is not moved from the location it is found. An officer is stationed securely near the weapon (under cover until the premises are deemed safe) and his/her job is to ensure it is NOT moved for it would compromise the integrity of an integral part of the crime scene.

Seeing as you are not aware of this gives me reason to believe you are nothing but some arrogant popster who spews crap he/she knows nothing aboiut and states it as fact.

Granted, I was not involved in civilian law enforcement...but I was involved deeply in military law enforcement...and NOT compromising the location/position of a loose weapon at a crime scene is lesson number 1

 

[bucs90]

Yesterday we saw the same thing cut and pasted from Salon and today it's US News. To paraphrase left wing democrat Rahm Emanuel, "Never let a crisis (or a tragedy) go to waste if you think you can use it against your political opponent and make a buck on the side". The story is pure tabloid sleaze and insulting to the poor families.

You are absolutely right. Im so disgusted with partisans on both sides. Our population has basically become of bunch of fat, stupid, ignorant, smartass losers, and frankly Im sick of it. The only way to stay sane in this country lately is to ignore politics, find a hobby you love, and absorb in it. But, then you let the loons run the show because they'll be the only ones crazy enough to do what it takes to get into positions of power.

While I strongly disagree with China and Russia taking total control over their media......I can see the logic they are using in doing so.

 

[Si modo]

TM, seriously. Lay off the booze.

 

[bucs90]

The right wing is somehow confused that a bunch of cops showed up to an active shooter situation, and there was a loose assault rifle somewhere- either in a car or in the school- and some cop picked it up and secured it, not knowing if there was still a gunman alive, if he was alone, they didnt know what the hell was going on, but on any active shooter response you have 2 primary goals:

1- Get to the killer, and stop the killer
2- Secure loose weapons on the way, so he cant circle around and use them

Once the killing is stopped, then they can proceed to traditional crime scene processing. This wasn't a gang murder or a domestic murder. It was a mass killing, and the tactics are different.

Could that gun have been in the car, and a cop running to the school passing by "clears the car" as they are trained, sees a live gun, SECURES IT, and moves on, and then later there is confusion about where the gun initially was at?

BUT...you're gonna me that, lets say it was you and I running into a shopping mall where some terd is killing people. We both have pistols, and as we are running, we see a gun on the ground. Are YOU gonna say "Im staying here with this gun"??? Hell no, you'll bring your ass in with me, pick that damn gun up, and lets find the guy.

Yes. Of course. Not only possible, but probable. People who have never been in chaotic situations like that, or major crime scenes, obviously wont grasp these tactics.

In bold?

Wrong.

The loose weapon is not moved from the location it is found. An officer is stationed securely near the weapon (under cover until the premises are deemed safe) and his/her job is to ensure it is NOT moved for it would compromise the integrity of an integral part of the crime scene.

Seeing as you are not aware of this gives me reason to believe you are nothing but some arrogant popster who spews crap he/she knows nothing aboiut and states it as fact.

Granted, I was not involved in civilian law enforcement...but I was involved deeply in military law enforcement...and NOT compromising the location/position of a loose weapon at a crime scene is lesson number 1

WTF? You were taught that by the MILITARY? I find that hard to believe.

You are talking about a static crime scene, and yes, in that case, you dont touch the weapon.

Im talking about an active shooter, a dynamic scene. The first 2-3 officers on-scene are crucial, they must hunt the killer down and kill him.

You WILL NOT waste a person by saying "Hey, PFC, stand here with this loose gun, we'll go in and hunt down the guy killing kids".

WHY IN THE **** would you waste your limited manpower by standing with a loose gun, while the killing is STILL GOING ON???

You would not. Never. Every single SWAT school in the world will teach that if the killing is ongoing, and you are en route and see a loose weapon, you SECURE it. 100%, every single time.

I wont doubt you were an MP. But you are talking about a static crime scene after the fact, where, yes, you dont touch shit.

If kids are dying, and Im running in with 2 other guys, I'll be damned if Im wasting 1 of us to stand with a loose gun while going in. We WILL pick it up A) So it wont be used against us later, and B) YOU MIGHT NEED IT if you run out of ammo since most cops only carry 3 mags on their belt.

An active shooter scene is way different than a normal crime scene. You DO NOT leave a loose gun laying around unless you KNOW the killer is dead and there are no more suspects.

Thats pure fact, you can question it all you want, but pick anyone, the LAPD SWAT commander, NYPD, or Podunk County, USA, they'll all say the same thing.l

 

[bucs90]

You and 2 other armed NRA members are driving to the range, and you hear a bunch of shots being fired at a nearby school. You brave men decide to take action, pull your guns, and run to the school. You see the front doors wide open.

As you are running in...you see a car parked right in front, illegally, and looks like the obvious suspects car. Do you run right by without glancing? No, he could have a buddy waiting to ambush the cops. So, you take a "quick glance" as you pass it, and see a loose gun. Do you:

A) Keep running, **** that gun, no one will come around for it
B) Leave 1 of your 3 armed men to babysit it
C) Pick the ****** up so no one gets it, plus, its an extra gun if you run out of ammo

The only correct answer is C.

Thats why in dynamic, active shooter situations, sometimes shit doesnt end up where it originally was found.

And thats why it takes time to sort shit out.

God you people are ******* idiots sometimes.

 

[Dubya]

Nice strawman.

No one is asking for information from the parents you dipshit. We are asking questions to the police and other agencies that work for us!

You don't even know what we are talking about, so shut up! You're too lazy to follow the tread.

Sure I do.

Your suggesting that we want info from the parents and that's not the case.


And BTW I'm not black.

The discussion was about the police asking the press to not bother the parents at the parents request.

You don't know shit.

 

[bucs90]

You don't even know what we are talking about, so shut up! You're too lazy to follow the tread.

Sure I do.

Your suggesting that we want info from the parents and that's not the case.


And BTW I'm not black.

The discussion was about the police asking the press to not bother the parents at the parents request.

You don't know shit.

Which to the modern right winger is a huge crime. Modern right wingers view the cops as scum on the bottom of their boot, lower than even the criminals they arrest.

So, the cops daring to simply ASK others to respect the parents right to privacy...is somehow an Obama conspiracy to take their assault rifles.

It makes sense....in the mind of the right wingers.

 

[Jarhead]

The right wing is somehow confused that a bunch of cops showed up to an active shooter situation, and there was a loose assault rifle somewhere- either in a car or in the school- and some cop picked it up and secured it, not knowing if there was still a gunman alive, if he was alone, they didnt know what the hell was going on, but on any active shooter response you have 2 primary goals:

1- Get to the killer, and stop the killer
2- Secure loose weapons on the way, so he cant circle around and use them

Once the killing is stopped, then they can proceed to traditional crime scene processing. This wasn't a gang murder or a domestic murder. It was a mass killing, and the tactics are different.

Could that gun have been in the car, and a cop running to the school passing by "clears the car" as they are trained, sees a live gun, SECURES IT, and moves on, and then later there is confusion about where the gun initially was at?

BUT...you're gonna me that, lets say it was you and I running into a shopping mall where some terd is killing people. We both have pistols, and as we are running, we see a gun on the ground. Are YOU gonna say "Im staying here with this gun"??? Hell no, you'll bring your ass in with me, pick that damn gun up, and lets find the guy.

Yes. Of course. Not only possible, but probable. People who have never been in chaotic situations like that, or major crime scenes, obviously wont grasp these tactics.

In bold?

Wrong.

The loose weapon is not moved from the location it is found. An officer is stationed securely near the weapon (under cover until the premises are deemed safe) and his/her job is to ensure it is NOT moved for it would compromise the integrity of an integral part of the crime scene.

Seeing as you are not aware of this gives me reason to believe you are nothing but some arrogant popster who spews crap he/she knows nothing aboiut and states it as fact.

Granted, I was not involved in civilian law enforcement...but I was involved deeply in military law enforcement...and NOT compromising the location/position of a loose weapon at a crime scene is lesson number 1

WTF? You were taught that by the MILITARY? I find that hard to believe.

You are talking about a static crime scene, and yes, in that case, you dont touch the weapon.

Im talking about an active shooter, a dynamic scene. The first 2-3 officers on-scene are crucial, they must hunt the killer down and kill him.

You WILL NOT waste a person by saying "Hey, PFC, stand here with this loose gun, we'll go in and hunt down the guy killing kids".

WHY IN THE **** would you waste your limited manpower by standing with a loose gun, while the killing is STILL GOING ON???

You would not. Never. Every single SWAT school in the world will teach that if the killing is ongoing, and you are en route and see a loose weapon, you SECURE it. 100%, every single time.

I wont doubt you were an MP. But you are talking about a static crime scene after the fact, where, yes, you dont touch shit.

If kids are dying, and Im running in with 2 other guys, I'll be damned if Im wasting 1 of us to stand with a loose gun while going in. We WILL pick it up A) So it wont be used against us later, and B) YOU MIGHT NEED IT if you run out of ammo since most cops only carry 3 mags on their belt.

An active shooter scene is way different than a normal crime scene. You DO NOT leave a loose gun laying around unless you KNOW the killer is dead and there are no more suspects.

Thats pure fact, you can question it all you want, but pick anyone, the LAPD SWAT commander, NYPD, or Podunk County, USA, they'll all say the same thing.l

Yes. I was taught that in the military and they teach it in the academy. When a tream enters a crime scene, members of the team are PREVIOSULY assigned to guard any weapons that are found...be it an active or static scene. They know not to touch them, move them; or do anything to compromise the scene. Their assignement is to keep an eye on the weapon. In this case, as in other cases where there is a body NEAR the weapon, they have the responsibility to guard the body with the intention to ensure it, too is not moved...compromising the crime scene.

You are not leaving a "loose gun" laying around. You are guarding a loose gun toi ensure it is not touched, moved, stolen, or used further.

You are absolutely wrong on this topic...not saying you are wrong as it pertains to other items you have cited...but you are wrong about weapons "laying around"...

The ONLY time you move a weapon from a crime scene is if it is within reach of an individual who is not armed and has not been identified as a potential victim or a perp...and you are to do your best to move it away from that individual without compromising the weapon itself...such as infecting it with your own prints.

 

[bucs90]

In bold?

Wrong.

The loose weapon is not moved from the location it is found. An officer is stationed securely near the weapon (under cover until the premises are deemed safe) and his/her job is to ensure it is NOT moved for it would compromise the integrity of an integral part of the crime scene.

Seeing as you are not aware of this gives me reason to believe you are nothing but some arrogant popster who spews crap he/she knows nothing aboiut and states it as fact.

Granted, I was not involved in civilian law enforcement...but I was involved deeply in military law enforcement...and NOT compromising the location/position of a loose weapon at a crime scene is lesson number 1

WTF? You were taught that by the MILITARY? I find that hard to believe.

You are talking about a static crime scene, and yes, in that case, you dont touch the weapon.

Im talking about an active shooter, a dynamic scene. The first 2-3 officers on-scene are crucial, they must hunt the killer down and kill him.

You WILL NOT waste a person by saying "Hey, PFC, stand here with this loose gun, we'll go in and hunt down the guy killing kids".

WHY IN THE **** would you waste your limited manpower by standing with a loose gun, while the killing is STILL GOING ON???

You would not. Never. Every single SWAT school in the world will teach that if the killing is ongoing, and you are en route and see a loose weapon, you SECURE it. 100%, every single time.

I wont doubt you were an MP. But you are talking about a static crime scene after the fact, where, yes, you dont touch shit.

If kids are dying, and Im running in with 2 other guys, I'll be damned if Im wasting 1 of us to stand with a loose gun while going in. We WILL pick it up A) So it wont be used against us later, and B) YOU MIGHT NEED IT if you run out of ammo since most cops only carry 3 mags on their belt.

An active shooter scene is way different than a normal crime scene. You DO NOT leave a loose gun laying around unless you KNOW the killer is dead and there are no more suspects.

Thats pure fact, you can question it all you want, but pick anyone, the LAPD SWAT commander, NYPD, or Podunk County, USA, they'll all say the same thing.l

Yes. I was taught that in the military and they teach it in the academy. When a tream enters a crime scene, members of the team are PREVIOSULY assigned to guard any weapons that are found...be it an active or static scene. They know not to touch them, move them; or do anything to compromise the scene. Their assignement is to keep an eye on the weapon. In this case, as in other cases where there is a body NEAR the weapon, they have the responsibility to guard the body with the intention to ensure it, too is not moved...compromising the crime scene.

You are not leaving a "loose gun" laying around. You are guarding a loose gun toi ensure it is not touched, moved, stolen, or used further.

You are absolutely wrong on this topic...not saying you are wrong as it pertains to other items you have cited...but you are wrong about weapons "laying around"...

The ONLY time you move a weapon from a crime scene is if it is within reach of an individual who is not armed and has not been identified as a potential victim or a perp...and you are to do your best to move it away from that individual without compromising the weapon itself...such as infecting it with your own prints.

I guess the police and military teach it different.

In active shooters, it isn't SWAT coming, it is patrol, and its only gonna be 2-3 guys at the most who get there. Statistically, after about 10 minutes the killing is over and the guy kills himself. So...the goal is get in asap, and limit casualties by killing the guy, or at least drawing his fire towards the cops.

So, seeing as a patrol team wont have more than 2-3 people, manpower is critical. You cannot waste a good-gun by assigning him to stand watch over a loose gun. WHY would you do that with A) Limited manpower and B) Active killing still going on?

The best tactical option is to pick that damn gun up, keep moving towards the killer. Dont leave the gun. Dont babysit it. Civilian LE says "People over property" and "Stop the threat first, worry about crime scene second".

Screw the crime scene. Kids are dying. Get to the killer, kill him. If you see a gun on the way, pick it the hell up. You dont know where the guy is, or if there is a second guy. Dont leave extra weapons around.

I suppose LE and military just teach it different. You guys have far more manpower. And you said "previously assigned" person to pick it up. How to you previously assign something that is NOT PLANNED?

School shootings are random and spontanious. You likely will arrive with cops you've never worked or trained with before, probably from other nearby agencies. In LE, its impossible to pre-plan an active shooter. SWAT teams can. They train a lot, and have 20-30 men. Patrol doesnt.

I just dont see your logic in 2-3 men running into a school shooting, that is still active, and losing 1 good man to babysit a loose gun when you can just pick it the hell up and take it with you to the fight. That logic would baffle any American SWAT or patrol tactics instructor.

 

[bucs90]

I mean, do we need fingerprints off the gun? No. We'll know soon enough who did it when he is dead.
Do we need to know where the gun was when we found it? Maybe. We remember where we found it. But whats more imporant....preservign the soon-to-be crime scene, or stopping the guy who is killing kids?

 

[Truthmatters]

The right wing in this country has reached westboro stage of insanity

 

[Jarhead]

WTF? You were taught that by the MILITARY? I find that hard to believe.

You are talking about a static crime scene, and yes, in that case, you dont touch the weapon.

Im talking about an active shooter, a dynamic scene. The first 2-3 officers on-scene are crucial, they must hunt the killer down and kill him.

You WILL NOT waste a person by saying "Hey, PFC, stand here with this loose gun, we'll go in and hunt down the guy killing kids".

WHY IN THE **** would you waste your limited manpower by standing with a loose gun, while the killing is STILL GOING ON???

You would not. Never. Every single SWAT school in the world will teach that if the killing is ongoing, and you are en route and see a loose weapon, you SECURE it. 100%, every single time.

I wont doubt you were an MP. But you are talking about a static crime scene after the fact, where, yes, you dont touch shit.

If kids are dying, and Im running in with 2 other guys, I'll be damned if Im wasting 1 of us to stand with a loose gun while going in. We WILL pick it up A) So it wont be used against us later, and B) YOU MIGHT NEED IT if you run out of ammo since most cops only carry 3 mags on their belt.

An active shooter scene is way different than a normal crime scene. You DO NOT leave a loose gun laying around unless you KNOW the killer is dead and there are no more suspects.

Thats pure fact, you can question it all you want, but pick anyone, the LAPD SWAT commander, NYPD, or Podunk County, USA, they'll all say the same thing.l

Yes. I was taught that in the military and they teach it in the academy. When a tream enters a crime scene, members of the team are PREVIOSULY assigned to guard any weapons that are found...be it an active or static scene. They know not to touch them, move them; or do anything to compromise the scene. Their assignement is to keep an eye on the weapon. In this case, as in other cases where there is a body NEAR the weapon, they have the responsibility to guard the body with the intention to ensure it, too is not moved...compromising the crime scene.

You are not leaving a "loose gun" laying around. You are guarding a loose gun toi ensure it is not touched, moved, stolen, or used further.

You are absolutely wrong on this topic...not saying you are wrong as it pertains to other items you have cited...but you are wrong about weapons "laying around"...

The ONLY time you move a weapon from a crime scene is if it is within reach of an individual who is not armed and has not been identified as a potential victim or a perp...and you are to do your best to move it away from that individual without compromising the weapon itself...such as infecting it with your own prints.

I guess the police and military teach it different.

In active shooters, it isn't SWAT coming, it is patrol, and its only gonna be 2-3 guys at the most who get there. Statistically, after about 10 minutes the killing is over and the guy kills himself. So...the goal is get in asap, and limit casualties by killing the guy, or at least drawing his fire towards the cops.

So, seeing as a patrol team wont have more than 2-3 people, manpower is critical. You cannot waste a good-gun by assigning him to stand watch over a loose gun. WHY would you do that with A) Limited manpower and B) Active killing still going on?

The best tactical option is to pick that damn gun up, keep moving towards the killer. Dont leave the gun. Dont babysit it. Civilian LE says "People over property" and "Stop the threat first, worry about crime scene second".

Screw the crime scene. Kids are dying. Get to the killer, kill him. If you see a gun on the way, pick it the hell up. You dont know where the guy is, or if there is a second guy. Dont leave extra weapons around.

I suppose LE and military just teach it different. You guys have far more manpower. And you said "previously assigned" person to pick it up. How to you previously assign something that is NOT PLANNED?

School shootings are random and spontanious. You likely will arrive with cops you've never worked or trained with before, probably from other nearby agencies. In LE, its impossible to pre-plan an active shooter. SWAT teams can. They train a lot, and have 20-30 men. Patrol doesnt.

I just dont see your logic in 2-3 men running into a school shooting, that is still active, and losing 1 good man to babysit a loose gun when you can just pick it the hell up and take it with you to the fight. That logic would baffle any American SWAT or patrol tactics instructor.

A loose gun at an active crime scene is a likely place for the gunman to return. Another reason why an officer will be placed within eye range and station himself there....always under cover.

You are incorrect Bucs....Im telling you.....you are wrong here. One does not pick up the gun....EVER.

 

[Jarhead]

I mean, do we need fingerprints off the gun? No. We'll know soon enough who did it when he is dead.
Do we need to know where the gun was when we found it? Maybe. We remember where we found it. But whats more imporant....preservign the soon-to-be crime scene, or stopping the guy who is killing kids?

Both are important.

You are mnistaken as it pertains to a loose gun. It is NEVER picked up by an officer.

 

[bucs90]

You are not leaving a "loose gun" laying around. You are guarding a loose gun toi ensure it is not touched, moved, stolen, or used further.

You are absolutely wrong on this topic...not saying you are wrong as it pertains to other items you have cited...but you are wrong about weapons "laying around"...

Why? In an active shooter, whats the point of guarding it? You lose a man in a crucial manpower/firepower situation. You probably only have 2-3 patrol cops available to go in during that 10 minute killing spree, you just gave up 1 extra good-gun in the fight about to go down.

If you see it, you know where it was. Tell a detective later once the guy is dead.
If you dont want it used against you, pick it up, this isn't a gang murder, we dont need prints, we need to stop kids from dying down the hall.


Your attitude towards this topic was the overwhelming attitude of police pre-Columbine, and it makes sense, as most police tactics are brought over from some part of military tactics.

And police work is NOT war, very different. However, the ONE time, and almost the only time, that role flips is an active shooter. Aggressive, hunting infantry-style tactics are taught to swat teams and cops for these type situations. No more surrounding a building and waiting on SWAT. No negotiating. You go in with whoever you got, hunt him down, and kill him. **** the crime scene, let detectives worry about that. If you see a gun, pick it up....you might need the ammo.

That is how it is taught.