Revisiting U.S. Drug policy

[N4mddissent]

I was listening to a story yesterday about drug violence in Mexico and it got me thinking. When will it be time to revisit American drug policy?

We know that in terms of economic efficiency, treatment and prevention are far more effective than incarceration and prosecution. I believe it was an old Rand study that was definitive on that point.

More to the point, should we consider decriminalizing some drugs? All of them? Marijuana is often brought up as a candidate. We know that sell of Marijuana provides billions of dollars to Mexican drug cartels. In general, it seems a good candidate for decriminalization. It is impossible to overdose on it. I've seen no studies conclusively indicating it is physically habit-forming. Sure, it's not healthy and may have long-term health effects, but so does alcohol- which can be physically habit-forming and is definitely possible to overdose on as some discover at universities across the country every year. What do you think? Legalize it and tax it?

What are the arguments for and against decriminalization of other drugs? After all, we don't want to give our stamp of approval, but if we cannot eliminate demand then are we just funneling money into a black market our laws help create? A market that flows into many other areas like gun violence and gangs?

Would decriminalization of certain drugs help free up the workload on our court system, prison system, and law enforcement? Could it save a lot of taxpayer dollars in those areas?

Or would all this just open the gates to a decline in American productivity and prosperity as we slowly fall into a collective drug saturated morass?

 

[twofour]

Recent history should be considered in why drugs were outlawed to begin with. Most of us will assume that law makers are in their position to make money and to place themselves in a position to make money when they leave political office. Most are lawyers. Therefore most laws made by them more than likely are made to place their law practice in a position to make money when they leave political office. I believe that prohibition was placed into law for this reason and that drug laws for the same reason. As you stated, outlawing drugs has not stopped the sale and use of drugs. Many people believe that once outlawed drugs became unrealistically expensive and despite the people in jail for manufacturing and sale of drugs that extremely high profit has called countless people into the drug trade. Some of our best minds are in it today. Law makers were smart enough to know this when they outlawed drugs and are reaping the benefits because of those laws now. They cite the damage caused by drug use and even cite happenings which actually cannot be proven to have been caused by drug use as the crutch to continue to outlaw drugs. Churches and anti crime organizations play right into their hands.

I don't believe that they ever thought about the hardships they have caused families because of these laws. I don't believe they care. All they want is the profits derived from drug laws.

You bring up several questions as what would occur were drug laws abolished. I don't claim to know the answers to these questions nor do I think anyone else will either. I do believe that fewer families would suffer because members of that family were to become either users of the drugs or people sitting in our jails because of the profits involved. Law enforcement would suffer but I believe that most law enforcement officials would much rather be chasing people who steal and harm others than a person selling or using drugs. Now you know how I feel. I believe that there should only be two types of criminal laws and I just referred to them: Crimes against property and crimes against people.

 

[johnrocks]

I think all drugs should be legal an then they could be regulated better,imho.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Legalize them all. Regulate and tax them. I think the Amsterdam experience shows that after a spike in drug use, it pretty much goes back to the same percentage of people who did it before. Not the same people, but the same level.

 

[N4mddissent]

Could this be an issue that enjoys bipartisan support? No dissent so far. Why is it not being discussed more prominently in our country?

 

[Peejay]

Marijuana should be legalized. I can't remember why.

 

[LiveUninhibited]

I was listening to a story yesterday about drug violence in Mexico and it got me thinking. When will it be time to revisit American drug policy?

I'm not sure why it wasn't revisited at the time alcohol prohibition ended. They were like, "Well... that didn't work," but why did they not apply that conclusion to other drugs besides alcohol?

Historically other types of drugs were made illegal as part of campaigns against an unpopular group. The earliest American laws were directed against opium dens:

There were no legal restrictions on the importation or use of opium in the United States until the San Francisco, California, Opium Den Ordinance, which banned dens for public smoking of opium in 1875, a measure fueled by anti-Chinese sentiment and the perception that whites were starting to frequent the dens....

Wikipedia article on opium.

Meanwhile, the drug of choice for upper-classed ladies of the time was injected morphine.

The first laws against marijuana (Mexicans), and cocaine (African Americans) followed similar patterns in racist/classist implementation. In a broader way, the trend continues today. Alcohol abusers are at least as dangerous to others as the users of most illegal drugs, yet alcohol is legal.

We know that in terms of economic efficiency, treatment and prevention are far more effective than incarceration and prosecution. I believe it was an old Rand study that was definitive on that point.

Lets put it this way: Drug use cannot be stopped entirely, but it can be minimized only by effective education and opportunities in conventional society. If you look at drug control spending versus use rates, there is no correlation. However, perceptions on drug use correlate very negatively with drug use rates.

Since responsible drug use does not hurt others, and most drug users don't hurt others, the punitive approach will only serve to cause more suffering by virtue of ruining more lives than the drugs themselves, all the while not decreasing use. People who don't use drugs don't use them because they don't want to or have better things to do. There is of course the factor that drug prohibition creates violent black markets as well.

More to the point, should we consider decriminalizing some drugs? All of them? Marijuana is often brought up as a candidate. We know that sell of Marijuana provides billions of dollars to Mexican drug cartels. In general, it seems a good candidate for decriminalization. It is impossible to overdose on it. I've seen no studies conclusively indicating it is physically habit-forming. Sure, it's not healthy and may have long-term health effects, but so does alcohol- which can be physically habit-forming and is definitely possible to overdose on as some discover at universities across the country every year. What do you think? Legalize it and tax it?

I may be wrong but you seem to be using decriminalize and legalize interchangeably. Decriminalize means that no jail time can be attached to the violation, but a fine is still possible. The act is classified as a violation (like most speeding tickets), rather than a felony or misdemeanor.

I'd say we should legalize them all provided we make the public understand that this does not mean that drugs are safe, but rather that drug enforcement has done more harm than good.

What are the arguments for and against decriminalization of other drugs? After all, we don't want to give our stamp of approval, but if we cannot eliminate demand then are we just funneling money into a black market our laws help create? A market that flows into many other areas like gun violence and gangs?

The only legit argument against legalization, IMO, is that it will send the wrong message to people, but that can be safeguarded against.

Would decriminalization of certain drugs help free up the workload on our court system, prison system, and law enforcement? Could it save a lot of taxpayer dollars in those areas?

Absolutely. America has the highest proportion of its population incarcerated in the world partly due to aggressive drug enforcement. If irresponsible use rates do not change under legalization/decriminaliation, fewer people's lives are destroyed by the criminal justice system, and the black market is deprived of its primary source of income, you can bet that money will be saved and society will improve.

Or would all this just open the gates to a decline in American productivity and prosperity as we slowly fall into a collective drug saturated morass?

America was fine before drugs were made illegal. People need to be educated on the possible consequences and then decide for themselves. It's nobody else's business unless the user victimizes somebody.

 

[editec]

Marijuana should be legalized. I can't remember why.

​

 

[N4mddissent]

I agree with what you have said. Since it was a new thread, I wanted the op to be an invitation for a wide range of opinions. I honestly have never heard any good reasonable argument for maintaining current drug laws and I guess that was sort of what I was looking for. I was hoping someone could give me a reason that would at least justify why the issue has not made it into serious public discussion. BTW, I do understand the difference between decriminalize and legalize, but since I was aiming for a broad discussion, I felt either would provide some similar benefits to the system, and wanted to leave the door open for many possible suggestions.

I think it is telling that no one has posted anything objecting to less strict drug laws here.

 

[LiveUninhibited]

Not a scientific poll, but when I posted a poll on what drug policy Americans should adopt on another forum these were the results:

All drugs, including 1+ already legal ones (nicotine, caffeine, alcohol), should be illegal. 0 0%
The laws/punishment should be stricter, but the same ones should remain illegal. 2 4.88%
The laws/punishments should stay the same. 1 2.44%
Medical marijuana should be allowed, but the recreational use should remain illegal. 3 7.32%
Soft illegal drugs, e.g. marijuana, should be decriminalized, others remain criminal. 13 31.71%
All drugs should be decriminalized, but dealers of hard drugs should be imprisoned. 5 12.20%
All drugs should be decriminalized, including fines but no jail time for dealers 0 0%
All drugs should be legal and regulated. 13 31.71%
All drugs should be legal without regulation. 2 4.88%
Other 2 4.88%

A tie between marijuana decriminalization and outright legalization with regulation, combined they're 63.42%. From my limited experience it seems people on political forums are more liberal on this issue. Fewer than 10% were more conservative than the status quo. I wonder if it is the same here.

 

[Harry Dresden]

until they make cigarettes and alcohol,which do harm you,much more than pot,illegal.....im for making pot legal as well,with the same regs as alcohol.....

 

[N4mddissent]

Not a scientific poll, but when I posted a poll on what drug policy Americans should adopt on another forum these were the results:

All drugs, including 1+ already legal ones (nicotine, caffeine, alcohol), should be illegal. 0 0%
The laws/punishment should be stricter, but the same ones should remain illegal. 2 4.88%
The laws/punishments should stay the same. 1 2.44%
Medical marijuana should be allowed, but the recreational use should remain illegal. 3 7.32%
Soft illegal drugs, e.g. marijuana, should be decriminalized, others remain criminal. 13 31.71%
All drugs should be decriminalized, but dealers of hard drugs should be imprisoned. 5 12.20%
All drugs should be decriminalized, including fines but no jail time for dealers 0 0%
All drugs should be legal and regulated. 13 31.71%
All drugs should be legal without regulation. 2 4.88%
Other 2 4.88%

A tie between marijuana decriminalization and outright legalization with regulation, combined they're 63.42%. From my limited experience it seems people on political forums are more liberal on this issue. Fewer than 10% were more conservative than the status quo. I wonder if it is the same here.

I don't know if it is necessarily a liberal point of view. Libertarians generally favor legalization. Goldwater conservatism would probably include legalization. Conservatism has had its definition muddled in recent years, especially with the influx of "social conservatism" into conservative movement at large. Pure conservatism is more focused on small government which would include reducing government interference in personal choices like drug use, abortion, and even prostitution. You don't find that much any more. Not that I would be considered conservative, but I've known several libertarians in my day.

 

[Harry Dresden]

well i will the Prez. saying its a state issue about Medical Marijuana....whats funny is Bush said he was for state rights,UNLESS, it did not jell with him and his asshole brigade....

 

[LiveUninhibited]

Not a scientific poll, but when I posted a poll on what drug policy Americans should adopt on another forum these were the results:

All drugs, including 1+ already legal ones (nicotine, caffeine, alcohol), should be illegal. 0 0%
The laws/punishment should be stricter, but the same ones should remain illegal. 2 4.88%
The laws/punishments should stay the same. 1 2.44%
Medical marijuana should be allowed, but the recreational use should remain illegal. 3 7.32%
Soft illegal drugs, e.g. marijuana, should be decriminalized, others remain criminal. 13 31.71%
All drugs should be decriminalized, but dealers of hard drugs should be imprisoned. 5 12.20%
All drugs should be decriminalized, including fines but no jail time for dealers 0 0%
All drugs should be legal and regulated. 13 31.71%
All drugs should be legal without regulation. 2 4.88%
Other 2 4.88%

A tie between marijuana decriminalization and outright legalization with regulation, combined they're 63.42%. From my limited experience it seems people on political forums are more liberal on this issue. Fewer than 10% were more conservative than the status quo. I wonder if it is the same here.

I don't know if it is necessarily a liberal point of view. Libertarians generally favor legalization. Goldwater conservatism would probably include legalization. Conservatism has had its definition muddled in recent years, especially with the influx of "social conservatism" into conservative movement at large. Pure conservatism is more focused on small government which would include reducing government interference in personal choices like drug use, abortion, and even prostitution. You don't find that much any more. Not that I would be considered conservative, but I've known several libertarians in my day.

Yeah I meant social conservatives. I used to be a libertarian in all senses of the word, but now socially libertarian, fiscally liberal.

 

[Againsheila]

I was listening to a story yesterday about drug violence in Mexico and it got me thinking. When will it be time to revisit American drug policy?

We know that in terms of economic efficiency, treatment and prevention are far more effective than incarceration and prosecution. I believe it was an old Rand study that was definitive on that point.

More to the point, should we consider decriminalizing some drugs? All of them? Marijuana is often brought up as a candidate. We know that sell of Marijuana provides billions of dollars to Mexican drug cartels. In general, it seems a good candidate for decriminalization. It is impossible to overdose on it. I've seen no studies conclusively indicating it is physically habit-forming. Sure, it's not healthy and may have long-term health effects, but so does alcohol- which can be physically habit-forming and is definitely possible to overdose on as some discover at universities across the country every year. What do you think? Legalize it and tax it?

What are the arguments for and against decriminalization of other drugs? After all, we don't want to give our stamp of approval, but if we cannot eliminate demand then are we just funneling money into a black market our laws help create? A market that flows into many other areas like gun violence and gangs?

Would decriminalization of certain drugs help free up the workload on our court system, prison system, and law enforcement? Could it save a lot of taxpayer dollars in those areas?

Or would all this just open the gates to a decline in American productivity and prosperity as we slowly fall into a collective drug saturated morass?

I'm all in favor of legalizing marijuana....not that what I think matters to anybody in power. The truth is that it's not just the drug cartels that are making money off of the drugs being shipped illegally into this country, many of our politicians, border patrol agents, and people in the justice system are also on the take. They won't legalize it, their income will go down.

Unfortunately, I think our system is rapidly becoming as corrupt as Mexico's.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Drug use is a public health problem and should be treated as such. There's actually something positive read the other day about this debate:

WASHINGTON, Feb 12 (IPS) - A commission led by three former Latin American heads of state has called the 30-year U.S. "war on drugs" in Latin America a failure and urged a drastic change in policy.

The Latin American Commission on Drugs and Democracy issued a report Wednesday, "Drugs and Democracy: Toward a Paradigm Shift," which calls for the creation of a Latin American drug policy and proposes three specific actions under the new paradigm: treat addicts as patients in the public health system; evaluate decriminalisation of cannabis possession for personal use; and reduce consumption through public education campaigns primarily directed at youth.

"The available evidence indicates that the war on drugs is a failed war," former Brazilian President Fernando Henrique Cardoso said in a conference call with reporters from Rio de Janeiro. "We have to move from their approach to another one."

The commission headed by Cardoso and former presidents Ernesto Zedillo of Mexico and Cesar Gaviria of Colombia calls on U.S. and Latin American governments to acknowledge the insufficiencies of current policy and to engage in a debate about new alternatives.

POLITICS: Latin American Leaders Say 'No' to U.S. Drug War

Here's the statement, it's pretty good: http://www.drugsanddemocracy.org/files/2009/02/declaracao_ingles_site.pdf

 

[editec]

Not a scientific poll, but when I posted a poll on what drug policy Americans should adopt on another forum these were the results:

All drugs, including 1+ already legal ones (nicotine, caffeine, alcohol), should be illegal. 0 0%
The laws/punishment should be stricter, but the same ones should remain illegal. 2 4.88%
The laws/punishments should stay the same. 1 2.44%
Medical marijuana should be allowed, but the recreational use should remain illegal. 3 7.32%
Soft illegal drugs, e.g. marijuana, should be decriminalized, others remain criminal. 13 31.71%
All drugs should be decriminalized, but dealers of hard drugs should be imprisoned. 5 12.20%
All drugs should be decriminalized, including fines but no jail time for dealers 0 0%
All drugs should be legal and regulated. 13 31.71%
All drugs should be legal without regulation. 2 4.88%
Other 2 4.88%

A tie between marijuana decriminalization and outright legalization with regulation, combined they're 63.42%. From my limited experience it seems people on political forums are more liberal on this issue. Fewer than 10% were more conservative than the status quo. I wonder if it is the same here.

I don't know if it is necessarily a liberal point of view. Libertarians generally favor legalization. Goldwater conservatism would probably include legalization. Conservatism has had its definition muddled in recent years, especially with the influx of "social conservatism" into conservative movement at large. Pure conservatism is more focused on small government which would include reducing government interference in personal choices like drug use, abortion, and even prostitution. You don't find that much any more. Not that I would be considered conservative, but I've known several libertarians in my day.

The National Review (Buckley's Mag) came our in favor of hemp legalization, and as well whole host of respected old time conservatives likewise.

Hemp is illegal because it is a cash crop...cash for criminals, cops, judges, prisons, and state and local governments.

Legalize it and it becomes nothing more than an interesting herb that some people will grow for their personal use.

Speaking as one long time member of the persecuted class of hempophiles that these parsites feed off of, the fact that the majoority of Americans want it legalized, but it has not yet been, is just one more bit of evidence that our government no more represents We, the people than most of you already think it doesn't.

What does it tell us, be we liberals or consrevatives that such things as hemp and this bail out of the banker class are happening over all our strenuous objections, folks?

One word...shamocracy

 

[dilloduck]

Do you realize how many sociopaths will be out of work if we legalize drugs ? What do you think they will turn to as a means of income ?

 

[editec]

Do you realize how many sociopaths will be out of work if we legalize drugs ?

Yeah, but it's probably time for those DEA agents and local good old boys in blue to start pulling their weight for a change, don't you think?

What do you think they will turn to as a means of income

I don't know... Banking, perhaps?

 

[LiveUninhibited]

the fact that the majoority of Americans want it legalized, but it has not yet been, is just one more bit of evidence that our government no more represents We, the people than most of you already think it doesn't.

As much as I'd like that to be true, I haven't seen a poll like that at all... What poll said a majority of Americans want pot legalized?