Revisionist History...America is not founded upon Christian values

[ogibillm]

Great another retard who thinks that when they obfuscate and broadcast their ignorance, they're *winning*.

so which was it founded on - tenets or values?

if as you say the tenets have been the same from the beginning it must be the values that have changed.

even so, i don't believe that freedom of religion is a tenet of christianity. a value perhaps but is that really of christianity or western civilization at this point in history?

 

[AllieBaba]

Who said freedom of religion was a tenet of Christianity?
Tenets and values are pretty much interchangeable.

 

[AllieBaba]

tenet
Definition
ten·et
[ ténnət ]
http://www.bing.com/caption/image/?bid=yCvB6rfJRFKJKg&bn=EDPG&form=DTPDIOTo hear the pronunciation, install Silverlight


ten·etsPlural

NOUN

1.
something accepted as important truth: an established fundamental belief, especially one relating to religion or politics "a basic tenet of Christianity"
Value:
PLURAL NOUN

1.
principles or standards: the accepted principles or standards of a person or a group

 

[AllieBaba]

Hope that helps you in your quest for knowledge and truth.

 

[Flopper]

I don't know, but it's alarming. I would have thought that anyone can learn, but I see over and over that there are people who reach a certain level and decide to stay..right...there. They have no desire to learn anything more, to review their own understanding of the world, or even to be truthful or correct

I don't see how people can live like that.

You still have not defined those Christian values and principals that you claim the country was founded on.

 

[AllieBaba]

Gosh, since I haven't listed any, they must not exist.

 

[Flopper]

Unless you can define the Christian principals you claim the nation was founded on, further discussion is pointless.

 

[AllieBaba]

No, it's not.
All I had to do was prove that America was founded upon Christian values.

I proved that, using the words of the founding fathers.

If you want to take it further and figure out exactly what Christian values the country is founded upon (all of them) then go right ahead.

 

[AllieBaba]

"And the ideals on which they framed the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution — that man is subject to the laws of nature and of nature’s God, that God created man equal and endowed him with basic unalienable rights, that human nature is sinful and therefore government power must be carefully restrained by the Constitution — are ideals that they derived, directly or indirectly, from the Bible. Some of these ideals may be shared by those of other religious traditions. But the Founding Fathers, with few exceptions, did not read the Koran, or the Upanishads, or the Bagavigita. They read the Bible, and they heard the Bible preached on Sunday mornings."



Obama: America Not a Christian Nation

 

[rightwinger]

"And the ideals on which they framed the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution — that man is subject to the laws of nature and of nature’s God, that God created man equal and endowed him with basic unalienable rights, that human nature is sinful and therefore government power must be carefully restrained by the Constitution — are ideals that they derived, directly or indirectly, from the Bible. Some of these ideals may be shared by those of other religious traditions. But the Founding Fathers, with few exceptions, did not read the Koran, or the Upanishads, or the Bagavigita. They read the Bible, and they heard the Bible preached on Sunday mornings."



Obama: America Not a Christian Nation

Nobody question that the founding fathers were Christians..

You have yet to establish any "Christian values" that are not present in other religions or predated Christianity

 

[peach174]

I'm afraid what you said was either an outright lie or a simplistic Christian interpretation of how our country was founded.
Our country is a Republic and the majority does not rule over the minority. The majority selects representatives who make the rules. Our courts protect the rights of the minority.



Do you actually believe that Muslims, Jews and Atheists traded off their religious freedoms in return for Christians being be the root of our nation? You can only have religious freedoms if you agree Christians are the root of the nation?

That is an embarassment to the principles this country was founded upon

YOU ARE NOT GETTING IT
Muslims,Jews and Atheists did not trade off anything for their freedom.
You dropped the part where I said there is a connection between God and Liberty.
Our political and human rights come from a power higher than human government.
This was the very basis of our constitutional government.
You must have Biblical morality or liberty cannot survive without a divine connection.
This is why schools taught the bible and our courts had the ten commandments displayed.
the most important of them was to honor your parents, then,
you shall not commit murder, nor adultery, or steal and to have a good relationship with your neighbor.
It is all about not hurting others.
Its about freedom for all of us as a society by teaching these commandments.

Wow......boy were you indoctrinated

Do you really believe there could be no Liberty without biblical morality? Do you think those who do not follow the bible cannot be moral?

Ten commandments in schools? Have you ever read them? If so, why do you think they should be taught in schools? REALLY read them and tell me why ALL children should be forced to learn them

This is not indoctrination it is factual American history for the foundation of our constitution.

Do you think it is OK to murder someone?
Do you think it is OK to steal?
Even atheists follow theses basic morals in order to have civility in society.
You have to have morals to have freedom or the alternative is complete government control,in which you have no freedom,you become slaves and robots.
Look at what is happening, people are beating each other up at fast food restaurants because their isn't any salt shakers or syrup, no one cares about about each other anymore, this is what happens without morals. A breakdown in civility.
The bible was taught in schools from the beginning of this nation up until 1963 and they were taught how to behave in society. They were not forced into anything, they were taught,just like any other subject.
By your point of view we are forced to learn.
We are forced to learn science,math,history?
You are the one who has been indoctrinated to believe in socialism,I don't want the government to tell me what I can and can not do,I believe in freedom from government.

 

[rightwinger]

YOU ARE NOT GETTING IT
Muslims,Jews and Atheists did not trade off anything for their freedom.
You dropped the part where I said there is a connection between God and Liberty.
Our political and human rights come from a power higher than human government.
This was the very basis of our constitutional government.
You must have Biblical morality or liberty cannot survive without a divine connection.
This is why schools taught the bible and our courts had the ten commandments displayed.
the most important of them was to honor your parents, then,
you shall not commit murder, nor adultery, or steal and to have a good relationship with your neighbor.
It is all about not hurting others.
Its about freedom for all of us as a society by teaching these commandments.

Wow......boy were you indoctrinated

Do you really believe there could be no Liberty without biblical morality? Do you think those who do not follow the bible cannot be moral?

Ten commandments in schools? Have you ever read them? If so, why do you think they should be taught in schools? REALLY read them and tell me why ALL children should be forced to learn them

This is not indoctrination it is factual American history for the foundation of our constitution.

Do you think it is OK to murder someone?
Do you think it is OK to steal?
Even atheists follow theses basic morals in order to have civility in society.
You have to have morals to have freedom or the alternative is complete government control,in which you have no freedom,you become slaves and robots.
Look at what is happening, people are beating each other up at fast food restaurants because their isn't any salt shakers or syrup, no one cares about about each other anymore, this is what happens without morals. A breakdown in civility.
The bible was taught in schools from the beginning of this nation up until 1963 and they were taught how to behave in society. They were not forced into anything, they were taught,just like any other subject.
By your point of view we are forced to learn.
We are forced to learn science,math,history?
You are the one who has been indoctrinated to believe in socialism,I don't want the government to tell me what I can and can not do,I believe in freedom from government.

I suggested you actually read the ten commandments before you suggest they be taught in our schools. Obviously you haven't. Do you really think societies would not know it is wrong to kill and steal if it weren't in the Ten Commandments?

The first four commandments directly relate to the establishment of religion and are not morals. Schools cannot tell children how they should worship. You wouldn't like it if schools taught your children that Jesus was not the son of god or that god did not exist. That is your job...not the schools

 

[AllieBaba]

"And the ideals on which they framed the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution — that man is subject to the laws of nature and of nature’s God, that God created man equal and endowed him with basic unalienable rights, that human nature is sinful and therefore government power must be carefully restrained by the Constitution — are ideals that they derived, directly or indirectly, from the Bible. Some of these ideals may be shared by those of other religious traditions. But the Founding Fathers, with few exceptions, did not read the Koran, or the Upanishads, or the Bagavigita. They read the Bible, and they heard the Bible preached on Sunday mornings."



Obama: America Not a Christian Nation

Nobody question that the founding fathers were Christians..

You have yet to establish any "Christian values" that are not present in other religions or predated Christianity

Actually, liewinger, people have questioned repeatedly that the ff were Christians.

But I wasn't arguing that. I was asked to name the ideals because there are posters who seem to think that's in question:


"]"And the ideals on which they framed the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution — that man is subject to the laws of nature and of nature’s God, that God created man equal and endowed him with basic unalienable rights, that human nature is sinful and therefore government power must be carefully restrained by the Constitution — are ideals that they derived, directly or indirectly, from the Bible."

For some reason there are a couple of trolls who don't understand what Christian values are, and have tried to disrupt this and other threads by continually asking for them. It was summed up nicely here, so I posted it.

 

[ogibillm]

Wow......boy were you indoctrinated

Do you really believe there could be no Liberty without biblical morality? Do you think those who do not follow the bible cannot be moral?

Ten commandments in schools? Have you ever read them? If so, why do you think they should be taught in schools? REALLY read them and tell me why ALL children should be forced to learn them

This is not indoctrination it is factual American history for the foundation of our constitution.

Do you think it is OK to murder someone?
Do you think it is OK to steal?
Even atheists follow theses basic morals in order to have civility in society.
You have to have morals to have freedom or the alternative is complete government control,in which you have no freedom,you become slaves and robots.
Look at what is happening, people are beating each other up at fast food restaurants because their isn't any salt shakers or syrup, no one cares about about each other anymore, this is what happens without morals. A breakdown in civility.
The bible was taught in schools from the beginning of this nation up until 1963 and they were taught how to behave in society. They were not forced into anything, they were taught,just like any other subject.
By your point of view we are forced to learn.
We are forced to learn science,math,history?
You are the one who has been indoctrinated to believe in socialism,I don't want the government to tell me what I can and can not do,I believe in freedom from government.

I suggested you actually read the ten commandments before you suggest they be taught in our schools. Obviously you haven't. Do you really think societies would not know it is wrong to kill and steal if it weren't in the Ten Commandments?

The first four commandments directly relate to the establishment of religion and are not morals. Schools cannot tell children how they should worship. You wouldn't like it if schools taught your children that Jesus was not the son of god or that god did not exist. That is your job...not the schools

perhaps he needs to read the code of hammurabi

 

[peach174]

Wow......boy were you indoctrinated

Do you really believe there could be no Liberty without biblical morality? Do you think those who do not follow the bible cannot be moral?

Ten commandments in schools? Have you ever read them? If so, why do you think they should be taught in schools? REALLY read them and tell me why ALL children should be forced to learn them

This is not indoctrination it is factual American history for the foundation of our constitution.

Do you think it is OK to murder someone?
Do you think it is OK to steal?
Even atheists follow theses basic morals in order to have civility in society.
You have to have morals to have freedom or the alternative is complete government control,in which you have no freedom,you become slaves and robots.
Look at what is happening, people are beating each other up at fast food restaurants because their isn't any salt shakers or syrup, no one cares about about each other anymore, this is what happens without morals. A breakdown in civility.
The bible was taught in schools from the beginning of this nation up until 1963 and they were taught how to behave in society. They were not forced into anything, they were taught,just like any other subject.
By your point of view we are forced to learn.
We are forced to learn science,math,history?
You are the one who has been indoctrinated to believe in socialism,I don't want the government to tell me what I can and can not do,I believe in freedom from government.

I suggested you actually read the ten commandments before you suggest they be taught in our schools. Obviously you haven't. Do you really think societies would not know it is wrong to kill and steal if it weren't in the Ten Commandments?

The first four commandments directly relate to the establishment of religion and are not morals. Schools cannot tell children how they should worship. You wouldn't like it if schools taught your children that Jesus was not the son of god or that god did not exist. That is your job...not the schools

I know the commandments very well.
Have you seen how our society has become?
We have people beating each other up over stupid things , like no salt or syrup in fast food restaurants, many people who have no respect for authority any more, people in N.Y. just walking by and ignoring a victim who was shot and dieing.
Our society is breaking down because of a lack of principals and morals.
You must have biblical morality or liberty cannot survive. You don't need to be Regulus, go to church etc. or to even have a belief in God but you have to have morals and principles which is based in biblical morality in order to govern yourself.
The alternative is complete government control over the people of which I do not want.

 

[rightwinger]

This is not indoctrination it is factual American history for the foundation of our constitution.

Do you think it is OK to murder someone?
Do you think it is OK to steal?
Even atheists follow theses basic morals in order to have civility in society.
You have to have morals to have freedom or the alternative is complete government control,in which you have no freedom,you become slaves and robots.
Look at what is happening, people are beating each other up at fast food restaurants because their isn't any salt shakers or syrup, no one cares about about each other anymore, this is what happens without morals. A breakdown in civility.
The bible was taught in schools from the beginning of this nation up until 1963 and they were taught how to behave in society. They were not forced into anything, they were taught,just like any other subject.
By your point of view we are forced to learn.
We are forced to learn science,math,history?
You are the one who has been indoctrinated to believe in socialism,I don't want the government to tell me what I can and can not do,I believe in freedom from government.

I suggested you actually read the ten commandments before you suggest they be taught in our schools. Obviously you haven't. Do you really think societies would not know it is wrong to kill and steal if it weren't in the Ten Commandments?

The first four commandments directly relate to the establishment of religion and are not morals. Schools cannot tell children how they should worship. You wouldn't like it if schools taught your children that Jesus was not the son of god or that god did not exist. That is your job...not the schools

I know the commandments very well.
Have you seen how our society has become?
We have people beating each other up over stupid things , like no salt or syrup in fast food restaurants, many people who have no respect for authority any more, people in N.Y. just walking by and ignoring a victim who was shot and dieing.
Our society is breaking down because of a lack of principals and morals.
You must have biblical morality or liberty cannot survive. You don't need to be Regulus, go to church etc. or to even have a belief in God but you have to have morals and principles which is based in biblical morality in order to govern yourself.
The alternative is complete government control over the people of which I do not want.

How moral was our society in 1963?

- Blacks were openly beaten and lynched
- Homosexuals were beaten without repercussion
- Women and children were subjected to domestic abuse and it was ignored as a "family issue"
- Schools and businesses were openly segregated

How did the morals of the Bible being taught in school do at preventing these abuses? As a society, we are more moral now than we were in 1963

 

[ogibillm]

I suggested you actually read the ten commandments before you suggest they be taught in our schools. Obviously you haven't. Do you really think societies would not know it is wrong to kill and steal if it weren't in the Ten Commandments?

The first four commandments directly relate to the establishment of religion and are not morals. Schools cannot tell children how they should worship. You wouldn't like it if schools taught your children that Jesus was not the son of god or that god did not exist. That is your job...not the schools

I know the commandments very well.
Have you seen how our society has become?
We have people beating each other up over stupid things , like no salt or syrup in fast food restaurants, many people who have no respect for authority any more, people in N.Y. just walking by and ignoring a victim who was shot and dieing.
Our society is breaking down because of a lack of principals and morals.
You must have biblical morality or liberty cannot survive. You don't need to be Regulus, go to church etc. or to even have a belief in God but you have to have morals and principles which is based in biblical morality in order to govern yourself.
The alternative is complete government control over the people of which I do not want.

How moral was our society in 1963?

- Blacks were openly beaten and lynched
- Homosexuals were beaten without repercussion
- Women and children were subjected to domestic abuse and it was ignored as a "family issue"
- Schools and businesses were openly segregated

How did the morals of the Bible being taught in school do at preventing these abuses? As a society, we are more moral now than we were in 1963

morality is a subjective thing - so is one's view of the past.

 

[peach174]

I suggested you actually read the ten commandments before you suggest they be taught in our schools. Obviously you haven't. Do you really think societies would not know it is wrong to kill and steal if it weren't in the Ten Commandments?

The first four commandments directly relate to the establishment of religion and are not morals. Schools cannot tell children how they should worship. You wouldn't like it if schools taught your children that Jesus was not the son of god or that god did not exist. That is your job...not the schools

I know the commandments very well.
Have you seen how our society has become?
We have people beating each other up over stupid things , like no salt or syrup in fast food restaurants, many people who have no respect for authority any more, people in N.Y. just walking by and ignoring a victim who was shot and dieing.
Our society is breaking down because of a lack of principals and morals.
You must have biblical morality or liberty cannot survive. You don't need to be Regulus, go to church etc. or to even have a belief in God but you have to have morals and principles which is based in biblical morality in order to govern yourself.
The alternative is complete government control over the people of which I do not want.

How moral was our society in 1963?

- Blacks were openly beaten and lynched
- Homosexuals were beaten without repercussion
- Women and children were subjected to domestic abuse and it was ignored as a "family issue"
- Schools and businesses were openly segregated

How did the morals of the Bible being taught in school do at preventing these abuses? As a society, we are more moral now than we were in 1963

The above is bigoted opinion's of mankind and needed to be changed and was changed.
You are confusing opinion's with morals.
Morals were better -
Everyone respected our police except the criminals,
Everyone did not need to lock their doors.
Children could play outside without parents worrying about them.
Business men could shake hands on a business deal's,knowing that by their word the deal would be done and not broken.

 

[rightwinger]

I know the commandments very well.
Have you seen how our society has become?
We have people beating each other up over stupid things , like no salt or syrup in fast food restaurants, many people who have no respect for authority any more, people in N.Y. just walking by and ignoring a victim who was shot and dieing.
Our society is breaking down because of a lack of principals and morals.
You must have biblical morality or liberty cannot survive. You don't need to be Regulus, go to church etc. or to even have a belief in God but you have to have morals and principles which is based in biblical morality in order to govern yourself.
The alternative is complete government control over the people of which I do not want.

How moral was our society in 1963?

- Blacks were openly beaten and lynched
- Homosexuals were beaten without repercussion
- Women and children were subjected to domestic abuse and it was ignored as a "family issue"
- Schools and businesses were openly segregated

How did the morals of the Bible being taught in school do at preventing these abuses? As a society, we are more moral now than we were in 1963

The above is bigoted opinion's of mankind and needed to be changed and was changed.
You are confusing opinion's with morals.
Morals were better -
Everyone respected our police except the criminals,
Everyone did not need to lock their doors.
Children could play outside without parents worrying about them.
Business men could shake hands on a business deal's,knowing that by their word the deal would be done and not broken.

People who beat up and killed blacks and homosexuals went to public schools with the ten commandments and a daily prayer....so did the police and courts that let them act with immunity.

Not a moral society by a long shot.

I lived in the 60s and I vastly prefer the morality of people today. Not even close

 

[peach174]

How moral was our society in 1963?

- Blacks were openly beaten and lynched
- Homosexuals were beaten without repercussion
- Women and children were subjected to domestic abuse and it was ignored as a "family issue"
- Schools and businesses were openly segregated

How did the morals of the Bible being taught in school do at preventing these abuses? As a society, we are more moral now than we were in 1963

The above is bigoted opinion's of mankind and needed to be changed and was changed.
You are confusing opinion's with morals.
Morals were better -
Everyone respected our police except the criminals,
Everyone did not need to lock their doors.
Children could play outside without parents worrying about them.
Business men could shake hands on a business deals,knowing that by their word the deal would be done and not broken.

People who beat up and killed blacks and homosexuals went to public schools with the ten commandments and a daily prayer....so did the police and courts that let them act with immunity.

Not a moral society by a long shot.

I lived in the 60s and I vastly prefer the morality of people today. Not even close

You are still citing opinion about blacks and homo's not morals
So you like todays society?
Children killing each other over tennis shoes?
Huge gangs killing each other and innocents
Having to have bars on your windows and surveillance camera's
Everyone cheating on one another
Companies ripping off the American people
Children who can't trick or treat because of razor blades in their candy