Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians

[flacaltenn]

It's the differ

It is not a simple yes or no. It depends on how you define belligerence. Is ugly rhetoric belligerence? And how extreme the embargo is. At what point does it become a siege?

I would argue that ugly words which have an effect of actual, physical violence is without doubt belligerence. I would argue that incitement or encouragement of actual, physical violence is belligerence. I would argue that paying people to commit violence is certainly belligerence.

Is embargo EVER a legitimate response to belligerence? Yes or no?

Only when the US locks up entire nations under criminally insane madmen like Sadam Hussein or the Kim jungs and then takes the keys to their economies for 10 years or more. Really BAD things happen. But THAT'S perfectly fine according to BOTH sides of the US political handbook..

Only makes US a mere accomplice to genocide.

Wait. Are you arguing against embargo?

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

It solves SOMETHING. If you're Israel and willing to perpetually absorb the economic and social costs of enforcing a blockade and embargo and police actions and providing life lines to Gaza. But if the objective is to swap Hamas for a better "partner in peace" --- that's not gonna work. According to all experience with blockades and embargoes.

1) Iraq -- we HAD to end the awful policy of bombing Iraq daily and killing off nearly 300,000 by a CHOICE of invasion. But it could not continue over 12 years with no diplomatic movement. The other choice was to "walk away", but neither party had the balls to do that.

2) The Kim Jung's and NK --- same deal. Ultimate solution was war or diplomacy. L'il Kim Chee is caving because he ADMIRES and covets things he can't afford like basketball, golf, and western booze.

3) Iran -- might have "forced" them to negotiate. But the negotiators were inept and the "peace" dubious at best.

4) Cuba -- Would never work. Never will.

What do all those have in common with Gaza? They are all dictatorial rogue states where the leaders and the elite don't get hurt by embargo/blockades. The tolerance for punishment is awfully damn high. And even HIGHER in lands that don't place primary value on standard of living or infrastructure. IE --- like the Arab states or NK

So what's the long term strategery here to echo GWBush? Is it to FIND a solution? Or is it perpetual expenditure of life and resources to "contain" a threat? Is it CONFLICT or solution?

We never learn. We're the stupid ones. Aid to the Palestinians? Israel is the largest supplier of "aid" and necessary services to the Palestinians. How long do they want to be in that position while getting vilified all over the world by Palestine sympathizers and hypocrites?

 

[rylah]

I would argue that ugly words which have an effect of actual, physical violence is without doubt belligerence. I would argue that incitement or encouragement of actual, physical violence is belligerence. I would argue that paying people to commit violence is certainly belligerence.

Is embargo EVER a legitimate response to belligerence? Yes or no?

Only when the US locks up entire nations under criminally insane madmen like Sadam Hussein or the Kim jungs and then takes the keys to their economies for 10 years or more. Really BAD things happen. But THAT'S perfectly fine according to BOTH sides of the US political handbook..

Only makes US a mere accomplice to genocide.

Wait. Are you arguing against embargo?

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

It's necessary for security certainly. But at a huge cost to Israel. And it's not gonna suddenly change Hamas back into a fuzzy coddly "social welfare" organization ----- EVER...

It's a huge cost to Israel (though arguably) because it CHOOSES to so, the same as we choose to help out enemies, if they agree, during catastrophic events.
Why? Because these are our values.

But what is different between any other aid and Israeli aid?
Israel is the only player with the finger on the pulse, with the intelligence and understanding of the situation on the ground in real time. Israel is the only one who can really monitor and make practical decisions regarding the viability of this or that help we provide. All others look from outside scratching their head from afar, attempting to pay off their image just not to be identified with the perceptual victim-hood.

Only once in several generations comes a western leader who instinctively gets it, we see it now, and as a result we have this desperate realization that something has to be immediately changed at the root - this thread is merely a symptom of how wheels have started to turn in a different direction since Trump got into office.

Though I understand we might have a diametrically opposing perspectives on the situation, how it looks from US and how it looks from here; We see something totally different in Trump than what most Americans might think we see in him on the surface of it, far away from naive dog love towards anyone who scratches it's beck, though it might seem egoistic like that. Without getting into You domestic issues, he has moved more wheels and perceptions in 2 years than most of the previous American administrations combined in the last 70-100 years.
IMHO

 

[Indeependent]

The PA should pay their hospital bills instead of paying for the belligerence that is terrorism. Removing aide payments is step one of an embargo. Point is exactly the same.

So now the West Bank will be under embargo as well?

Is that a problem for you? Why?

Because I don’t think that is the right thing to do. It is collective punishment and unlike Hamas, the PA is not a terrorist organization.

Collective Murder vs Collective Punishment.
Life’s a *****, ain’t it.

Genocide is the ultimate collective punishment.

There is a good reason it is considered criminal.

The ultimate Liberal stance is to empathize with the loser, even if the loser is the agressor.
And where is this genocide occurring?
Certainly not amongst the ever growing “Palestinian” population.

 

[Mindful]

So now the West Bank will be under embargo as well?

Is that a problem for you? Why?

Because I don’t think that is the right thing to do. It is collective punishment and unlike Hamas, the PA is not a terrorist organization.

Collective Murder vs Collective Punishment.
Life’s a *****, ain’t it.

Genocide is the ultimate collective punishment.

There is a good reason it is considered criminal.

The ultimate Liberal stance is to empathize with the loser, even if the loser is the agressor.
And where is this genocide occurring?
Certainly not amongst the ever growing “Palestinian” population.

Has grown 8 fold or more since 1948.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ flacaltenn, Shusha, Coyote, et al,

Imbargos, tariffs and sanctions are all alternative political means or political pain and punishment - to armed struggle, war, and low-intensity conflicts. It is not equivalent to "genocide" as legally intended to be understood by international law.

Article 6 • Genocide • Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC)
For the purpose of this Statute, "genocide" means any of the following acts committed
with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious
group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring
about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.​

The targets have always been members of state-sponsored designated terrorists or a Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) (Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters). The intent was the elimination of the HoAP threat and not the Arab Palestinian Population. Civilian casualties were largely a failure of the HoAP to remove civilian persons and objects under its control from the vicinity of military objectives (Rule #24 Customary & IHL).

NOTE: More and more, I see people in discussions, all over the place, misuse terminology, caught-up in the emotion of propaganda. Or they tend to confuse the terms. The four major criminal case the ICC hears fall into either: (These are not all the same thing, and they are not interchangeable terms.)

(a) The crime of genocide;
(b) Crimes against humanity;
(c) War crimes;
(d) The crime of aggression​

​

...

...

→

Only when the US locks up entire nations under criminally insane madmen like Sadam Hussein or the Kim jungs and then takes the keys to their economies for 10 years or more. Really BAD things happen. But THAT'S perfectly fine according to BOTH sides of the US political handbook..

Only makes US a mere accomplice to genocide.

(COMMENT)

All too many times the HoAP uses such terms as "genocide" in an appeal to the international community (a logical fallacy) in a manipulation of emotions in order as a means to sway public opinion in the absence of factual evidence.

Reference: knoema.com/atlas/palestine/topics/demographics/population/population …
​

As you can see from the charts, you can also see that the TRUE EVIDENCE is in the growth rate of the Arab Palestinian is almost (not quite) an exponential growth rate (each at an average of 2%). Now if there were a campaign of genocide (as the Arab Palestinian) propagandist claim, you would not expect to see such a steep upward swing in the population growth. (FACTUAL EVIDENCE).
Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Sixties Fan]

Defunded by US, an unreformed UNRWA finds European support

 

[Coyote]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ flacaltenn, Shusha, Coyote, et al,

Imbargos, tariffs and sanctions are all alternative political means or political pain and punishment - to armed struggle, war, and low-intensity conflicts. It is not equivalent to "genocide" as legally intended to be understood by international law.

Article 6 • Genocide • Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC)
For the purpose of this Statute, "genocide" means any of the following acts committed
with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious
group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring
about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.​

The targets have always been members of state-sponsored designated terrorists or a Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) (Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters). The intent was the elimination of the HoAP threat and not the Arab Palestinian Population. Civilian casualties were largely a failure of the HoAP to remove civilian persons and objects under its control from the vicinity of military objectives (Rule #24 Customary & IHL).

NOTE: More and more, I see people in discussions, all over the place, misuse terminology, caught-up in the emotion of propaganda. Or they tend to confuse the terms. The four major criminal case the ICC hears fall into either: (These are not all the same thing, and they are not interchangeable terms.)

(a) The crime of genocide;
(b) Crimes against humanity;
(c) War crimes;
(d) The crime of aggression

​

...

...

→

Only when the US locks up entire nations under criminally insane madmen like Sadam Hussein or the Kim jungs and then takes the keys to their economies for 10 years or more. Really BAD things happen. But THAT'S perfectly fine according to BOTH sides of the US political handbook..

Only makes US a mere accomplice to genocide.

(COMMENT)

All too many times the HoAP uses such terms as "genocide" in an appeal to the international community (a logical fallacy) in a manipulation of emotions in order as a means to sway public opinion in the absence of factual evidence.

View attachment 220008

Reference: knoema.com/atlas/palestine/topics/demographics/population/population …
​

As you can see from the charts, you can also see that the TRUE EVIDENCE is in the growth rate of the Arab Palestinian is almost (not quite) an exponential growth rate (each at an average of 2%). Now if there were a campaign of genocide (as the Arab Palestinian) propagandist claim, you would not expect to see such a steep upward swing in the population growth. (FACTUAL EVIDENCE).
Most Respectfully,
R

Just as an fyi...I used genocide carefully. Not in relation to embargos but to a a comment on collective punishment. You have to admit, genocide is thr ultimate collective punishment.

 

[Coyote]

So now the West Bank will be under embargo as well?

Is that a problem for you? Why?

Because I don’t think that is the right thing to do. It is collective punishment and unlike Hamas, the PA is not a terrorist organization.

Collective Murder vs Collective Punishment.
Life’s a *****, ain’t it.

Genocide is the ultimate collective punishment.

There is a good reason it is considered criminal.

The ultimate Liberal stance is to empathize with the loser, even if the loser is the agressor.
And where is this genocide occurring?
Certainly not amongst the ever growing “Palestinian” population.

Who said it was?

 

[Coyote]

Only when the US locks up entire nations under criminally insane madmen like Sadam Hussein or the Kim jungs and then takes the keys to their economies for 10 years or more. Really BAD things happen. But THAT'S perfectly fine according to BOTH sides of the US political handbook..

Only makes US a mere accomplice to genocide.

Wait. Are you arguing against embargo?

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

It's necessary for security certainly. But at a huge cost to Israel. And it's not gonna suddenly change Hamas back into a fuzzy coddly "social welfare" organization ----- EVER...

It's a huge cost to Israel (though arguably) because it CHOOSES to so, the same as we choose to help out enemies, if they agree, during catastrophic events.
Why? Because these are our values.

But what is different between any other aid and Israeli aid?
Israel is the only player with the finger on the pulse, with the intelligence and understanding of the situation on the ground in real time. Israel is the only one who can really monitor and make practical decisions regarding the viability of this or that help we provide. All others look from outside scratching their head from afar, attempting to pay off their image just not to be identified with the perceptual victim-hood.

Only once in several generations comes a western leader who instinctively gets it, we see it now, and as a result we have this desperate realization that something has to be immediately changed at the root - this thread is merely a symptom of how wheels have started to turn in a different direction since Trump got into office.

Though I understand we might have a diametrically opposing perspectives on the situation, how it looks from US and how it looks from here; We see something totally different in Trump than what most Americans might think we see in him on the surface of it, far away from naive dog love towards anyone who scratches it's beck, though it might seem egoistic like that. Without getting into You domestic issues, he has moved more wheels and perceptions in 2 years than most of the previous American administrations combined in the last 70-100 years.
IMHO

Israel's views of tbe situation represent only one party's view of the situation on the ground. There is another party involved who's views are now marginalized. Each adds their own bias' to events. Of course you like Trump. He sees it from ONLY one view and endorses that view with prejudice.

 

[Coyote]

It is not a simple yes or no. It depends on how you define belligerence. Is ugly rhetoric belligerence? And how extreme the embargo is. At what point does it become a siege?

I would argue that ugly words which have an effect of actual, physical violence is without doubt belligerence. I would argue that incitement or encouragement of actual, physical violence is belligerence. I would argue that paying people to commit violence is certainly belligerence.

Is embargo EVER a legitimate response to belligerence? Yes or no?

Only when the US locks up entire nations under criminally insane madmen like Sadam Hussein or the Kim jungs and then takes the keys to their economies for 10 years or more. Really BAD things happen. But THAT'S perfectly fine according to BOTH sides of the US political handbook..

Only makes US a mere accomplice to genocide.

Wait. Are you arguing against embargo?

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

It is not a simple yes or no. It depends on how you define belligerence. Is ugly rhetoric belligerence? And how extreme the embargo is. At what point does it become a siege?

I would argue that ugly words which have an effect of actual, physical violence is without doubt belligerence. I would argue that incitement or encouragement of actual, physical violence is belligerence. I would argue that paying people to commit violence is certainly belligerence.

Is embargo EVER a legitimate response to belligerence? Yes or no?

Only when the US locks up entire nations under criminally insane madmen like Sadam Hussein or the Kim jungs and then takes the keys to their economies for 10 years or more. Really BAD things happen. But THAT'S perfectly fine according to BOTH sides of the US political handbook..

Only makes US a mere accomplice to genocide.

Wait. Are you arguing against embargo?

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

They are not being genocided, Hamas is not going around the world killing Jews. It is a conflict and Hamas deliberately targets civilians but that isnt genocide.

 

[Coyote]

Because I don’t think that is the right thing to do. It is collective punishment and unlike Hamas, the PA is not a terrorist organization.

Collective Murder vs Collective Punishment.
Life’s a *****, ain’t it.

Genocide is the ultimate collective punishment.

There is a good reason it is considered criminal.

And how did you leap to genocide? You think those WBank Palis buying into expensive flats and condos in Wahabi are concerned with genocide??

Because I was responding collective murder vs collective punishment. The extrem end of collective punishment would be genocide don’t you think?

That would be extreme. But it's had 50 years to happen and it hasn't. Israel isn't "punishing" the West Bank. Those cities do not LOOK punished -- do they? In terms of Pali life elsewhere in the Mid East.

Flac, you need to look at tbe context of the conversation which was along the lines of "why not put an embargo on the West Bank" not that thete is one. If we did so it would be collective punishment.

 

[Indeependent]

Collective Murder vs Collective Punishment.
Life’s a *****, ain’t it.

Genocide is the ultimate collective punishment.

There is a good reason it is considered criminal.

And how did you leap to genocide? You think those WBank Palis buying into expensive flats and condos in Wahabi are concerned with genocide??

Because I was responding collective murder vs collective punishment. The extrem end of collective punishment would be genocide don’t you think?

That would be extreme. But it's had 50 years to happen and it hasn't. Israel isn't "punishing" the West Bank. Those cities do not LOOK punished -- do they? In terms of Pali life elsewhere in the Mid East.

Flac, you need to look at tbe context of the conversation which was along the lines of "why not put an embargo on the West Bank" not that thete is one. If we did so it would be collective punishment.

Because the West Bank leadership is openly, and violently, hostile towards their neighbor.

 

[Coyote]

Genocide is the ultimate collective punishment.

There is a good reason it is considered criminal.

And how did you leap to genocide? You think those WBank Palis buying into expensive flats and condos in Wahabi are concerned with genocide??

Because I was responding collective murder vs collective punishment. The extrem end of collective punishment would be genocide don’t you think?

That would be extreme. But it's had 50 years to happen and it hasn't. Israel isn't "punishing" the West Bank. Those cities do not LOOK punished -- do they? In terms of Pali life elsewhere in the Mid East.

Flac, you need to look at tbe context of the conversation which was along the lines of "why not put an embargo on the West Bank" not that thete is one. If we did so it would be collective punishment.

Because the West Bank leadership is openly, and violently, hostile towards their neighbor.

So? Are they shooting rockets? Bombing?

So any country that is openly "hostile"regardless of real threat or tbe context of the conflict, should be embargoed. You are going to have a long list.

 

[Indeependent]

And how did you leap to genocide? You think those WBank Palis buying into expensive flats and condos in Wahabi are concerned with genocide??

Because I was responding collective murder vs collective punishment. The extrem end of collective punishment would be genocide don’t you think?

That would be extreme. But it's had 50 years to happen and it hasn't. Israel isn't "punishing" the West Bank. Those cities do not LOOK punished -- do they? In terms of Pali life elsewhere in the Mid East.

Flac, you need to look at tbe context of the conversation which was along the lines of "why not put an embargo on the West Bank" not that thete is one. If we did so it would be collective punishment.

Because the West Bank leadership is openly, and violently, hostile towards their neighbor.

So? Are they shooting rockets? Bombing?

So any country that is openly "hostile"regardless of real threat or tbe context of the conflict, should be embargoed. You are going to have a long list.

Do you follow the news?
Israel had to build an electronic fence around the entire country to stop schools and homes from homicide invasions.
Why don’t you see this in context?
Jews never walk into a school in Arab territory and machine gun students to death.

 

[Shusha]

I would argue that ugly words which have an effect of actual, physical violence is without doubt belligerence. I would argue that incitement or encouragement of actual, physical violence is belligerence. I would argue that paying people to commit violence is certainly belligerence.

Is embargo EVER a legitimate response to belligerence? Yes or no?

Only when the US locks up entire nations under criminally insane madmen like Sadam Hussein or the Kim jungs and then takes the keys to their economies for 10 years or more. Really BAD things happen. But THAT'S perfectly fine according to BOTH sides of the US political handbook..

Only makes US a mere accomplice to genocide.

Wait. Are you arguing against embargo?

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

I would argue that ugly words which have an effect of actual, physical violence is without doubt belligerence. I would argue that incitement or encouragement of actual, physical violence is belligerence. I would argue that paying people to commit violence is certainly belligerence.

Is embargo EVER a legitimate response to belligerence? Yes or no?

Only when the US locks up entire nations under criminally insane madmen like Sadam Hussein or the Kim jungs and then takes the keys to their economies for 10 years or more. Really BAD things happen. But THAT'S perfectly fine according to BOTH sides of the US political handbook..

Only makes US a mere accomplice to genocide.

Wait. Are you arguing against embargo?

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

They are not being genocided, Hamas is not going around the world killing Jews. It is a conflict and Hamas deliberately targets civilians but that isnt genocide.

They do use language that calls it to mind. "Rip the hearts out of Jews".

 

[Shusha]

So? Are they shooting rockets? Bombing?

So any country that is openly "hostile"regardless of real threat or tbe context of the conflict, should be embargoed. You are going to have a long list.

They are openly calling for an(other) intifada and PAYING people to kill Jews. The government is encouraging its citizens to murder Jews with both words and resources. The government is even creating false accusations against Jews, such as Al Aqsa being under dire threat, in order to stir up the population to murder Jews.

What is the answer to that sort of belligerent government action against a neighboring State and its citizens?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Just as an fyi...I used genocide carefully. Not in relation to embargos but to a a comment on collective punishment. You have to admit, genocide is the ultimate collective punishment.

You used the term genocide in order to deceive.

There has been no genocide committed against the made up group of Arabs called "Palestinian", nor has there been anything even remotely close to it. Their population has exploded in the last several decades, so it is an insult to people's intelligence that you try to link the term "genocide" to the standard terrorist propaganda term "collective punishment" to suggest that it applies to this situation. It doesn't.

The only people of the two to have experienced genocide are the Jews, and the only group ADVOCATING genocide are Palestinian. Genocide is one of the listed objectives of Hamas, which promises to kill Jews until they hide behind rocks and trees.

 

[Shusha]

...you try to link the term "genocide" to the standard terrorist propaganda term "collective punishment" to suggest that it applies to this situation.

Its also another example of applying a double standard to Israel where common and accepted political and military strategies are re-labelled as something else so as to demonize Israel. No where else are embargos, blockades and defending your own borders defined as "collective punishment".

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Its also another example of applying a double standard to Israel where common and accepted political and military strategies are re-labelled as something else so as to demonize Israel. No where else are embargos, blockades and defending your own borders defined as "collective punishment".

She is just repeating the made up buzz terms she finds at the terrorist sites she finds to make up her world view. All the Pally Propagandists use the same jargon as their posts are filled with the de rigueur phrases like "Bantustans", "Collective Punishment" and "open air prisons" so carefully selected for them.

She might as well claim that the bars around a bank vault are "collective punishment" towards all would-be bank robbers as she tries to use the bars to justify robbing the bank.

The terrorist propaganda sites use the term "collective punishment" to justify terrorism in a similar fashion. While such silly ruses do not work on those with an awareness of the conflict gained through a legitimate educational process, they seems to be quite seductive for virtue signaling warriors who know nothing whatsoever, and are looking to fill the void.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ flacaltenn, Shusha, Indeependent, Coyote, et al,

While it is often spoken of, Collective Punishment is not really applicable to the Conflict relative to the embargos, blockades, sanctions, and other restrictions. Collective Punishments, not mentioned directly in the Statues of the International Criminal Courts, is to prevent "one side" (of the struggle) from lining-up the innocent citizens of the "other side" (of the struggle), and executing them for a crime they did not commit or as a human reprisal for some aggrieved action.

The prohibition against collective punishment has been in place for hundreds of years as a customary practive; but, is formally defined in:

No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be inflicted upon the population on account of the acts of individuals for which they cannot be regarded as jointly and severally responsible.

Collective Murder vs Collective Punishment.
Life’s a *****, ain’t it.

Genocide is the ultimate collective punishment.

There is a good reason it is considered criminal.

And how did you leap to genocide? You think those WBank Palis buying into expensive flats and condos in Wahabi are concerned with genocide??

Because I was responding to collective murder vs collective punishment. The extrem end of collective punishment would be genocide don’t you think?

That would be extreme. But it's had 50 years to happen and it hasn't. Israel isn't "punishing" the West Bank. Those cities do not LOOK punished -- do they? In terms of Pali life elsewhere in the Mid East.

Flac, you need to look at tbe context of the conversation which was along the lines of "why not put an embargo on the West Bank" not that thete is one. If we did so it would be collective punishment.

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Economic Sanctions
The Council on Foreign Relations defines sanctions as "a lower-cost, lower-risk, middle course of action between diplomacy and war." Money is that middle course, and economic sanctions are the means. Some of the most common punitive financial measures include:

• Tariffs: Surcharges on imported goods, often imposed to aid domestic industries and markets.
• Quotas: Limits on the number of goods that may be imported or exported.
• Embargoes: Restrictions on or cessation of trading with a nation or bloc of nations. These can include limiting or banning travel by individuals to and from nations.
• Non-tariff barriers: These are designed to make foreign goods more expensive by complying with onerous regulatory requirements.
• Asset seizure/freeze: Capturing or holding the financial assets of nations, citizens, or preventing the sale or moving of those assets.

Economic Sanctions is an umbrella term that covers a multitude of actions including the meaning of an "Embargoes." The list is not all-inclusive.

It is not the same thing as "Collective Punishments." In fact, you will notice that Article 8 (War Crimes) in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court does not specifically address "Collective Punishment." But there are a number of provisions listed in Article 8 that are adequate replacements for the true intention of the Article 50 (HR 1907) original intent. We should be careful not to apply humanitarian views in an interpretation of a 100-year-old law.​

Most Respectfully,
R