Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians

[flacaltenn]

Wait. Are you arguing against embargo?

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

It's necessary for security certainly. But at a huge cost to Israel. And it's not gonna suddenly change Hamas back into a fuzzy coddly "social welfare" organization ----- EVER...

It's a huge cost to Israel (though arguably) because it CHOOSES to so, the same as we choose to help out enemies, if they agree, during catastrophic events.
Why? Because these are our values.

But what is different between any other aid and Israeli aid?
Israel is the only player with the finger on the pulse, with the intelligence and understanding of the situation on the ground in real time. Israel is the only one who can really monitor and make practical decisions regarding the viability of this or that help we provide. All others look from outside scratching their head from afar, attempting to pay off their image just not to be identified with the perceptual victim-hood.

Only once in several generations comes a western leader who instinctively gets it, we see it now, and as a result we have this desperate realization that something has to be immediately changed at the root - this thread is merely a symptom of how wheels have started to turn in a different direction since Trump got into office.

Though I understand we might have a diametrically opposing perspectives on the situation, how it looks from US and how it looks from here; We see something totally different in Trump than what most Americans might think we see in him on the surface of it, far away from naive dog love towards anyone who scratches it's beck, though it might seem egoistic like that. Without getting into You domestic issues, he has moved more wheels and perceptions in 2 years than most of the previous American administrations combined in the last 70-100 years.
IMHO

Israel's views of tbe situation represent only one party's view of the situation on the ground. There is another party involved who's views are now marginalized. Each adds their own bias' to events. Of course you like Trump. He sees it from ONLY one view and endorses that view with prejudice.

And --- IS there a "Palestinian view" of the situation? I think not. Who are the anointed leaders that speak for ALL Palestinians? Including the 300,000 ex-pats or exiles?

The dumb western strategy has been to FORCE a "Palestinian unification" in a form of NATIONALISM that is completely alien to the Palestinians. They don't want it. They don't TRUST IT. And they have seen where Western IMPOSED nationalism has only led to corrupt, strong-man Arab governments - full of corruption, cronyism, and totalitarian measures.

The WEST brought nationalism to the Middle East. It's not natural. OVER 1/2 of Palestinians see the PA that way right now. As corrupt, inept and having too much power over the tribal, sectarian, familial lines of control that they prefer..

I think many of sympathizers, you might be included, have LEPT to the same dumb concept of a "unified" Palestinian democracy of some sort that probably should NEVER exist -- speaking on behalf of ALL of them.

So what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?

 

[rylah]

Wait. Are you arguing against embargo?

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

It's necessary for security certainly. But at a huge cost to Israel. And it's not gonna suddenly change Hamas back into a fuzzy coddly "social welfare" organization ----- EVER...

It's a huge cost to Israel (though arguably) because it CHOOSES to so, the same as we choose to help out enemies, if they agree, during catastrophic events.
Why? Because these are our values.

But what is different between any other aid and Israeli aid?
Israel is the only player with the finger on the pulse, with the intelligence and understanding of the situation on the ground in real time. Israel is the only one who can really monitor and make practical decisions regarding the viability of this or that help we provide. All others look from outside scratching their head from afar, attempting to pay off their image just not to be identified with the perceptual victim-hood.

Only once in several generations comes a western leader who instinctively gets it, we see it now, and as a result we have this desperate realization that something has to be immediately changed at the root - this thread is merely a symptom of how wheels have started to turn in a different direction since Trump got into office.

Though I understand we might have a diametrically opposing perspectives on the situation, how it looks from US and how it looks from here; We see something totally different in Trump than what most Americans might think we see in him on the surface of it, far away from naive dog love towards anyone who scratches it's beck, though it might seem egoistic like that. Without getting into You domestic issues, he has moved more wheels and perceptions in 2 years than most of the previous American administrations combined in the last 70-100 years.
IMHO

Israel's views of tbe situation represent only one party's view of the situation on the ground. There is another party involved who's views are now marginalized. Each adds their own bias' to events. Of course you like Trump. He sees it from ONLY one view and endorses that view with prejudice.

This is total moral corruption.
Wasn't the same "let's be fair to all" rhetoric used by Hitler's American sympathizers when the US decided to "marginalize" the Reich?

 

[P F Tinmore]

They don't want it. They don't TRUST IT. And they have seen where Western IMPOSED nationalism has only led to corrupt, strong-man Arab governments - full of corruption, cronyism, and totalitarian measures.

Indeed, that is Abbas in a nutshell.

 

[rylah]

They don't want it. They don't TRUST IT. And they have seen where Western IMPOSED nationalism has only led to corrupt, strong-man Arab governments - full of corruption, cronyism, and totalitarian measures.

Indeed, that is Abbas in a nutshell.

Hamas any less corrupt?

 

[member]

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

It's necessary for security certainly. But at a huge cost to Israel. And it's not gonna suddenly change Hamas back into a fuzzy coddly "social welfare" organization ----- EVER...

It's a huge cost to Israel (though arguably) because it CHOOSES to so, the same as we choose to help out enemies, if they agree, during catastrophic events.
Why? Because these are our values.

But what is different between any other aid and Israeli aid?
Israel is the only player with the finger on the pulse, with the intelligence and understanding of the situation on the ground in real time. Israel is the only one who can really monitor and make practical decisions regarding the viability of this or that help we provide. All others look from outside scratching their head from afar, attempting to pay off their image just not to be identified with the perceptual victim-hood.

Only once in several generations comes a western leader who instinctively gets it, we see it now, and as a result we have this desperate realization that something has to be immediately changed at the root - this thread is merely a symptom of how wheels have started to turn in a different direction since Trump got into office.

Though I understand we might have a diametrically opposing perspectives on the situation, how it looks from US and how it looks from here; We see something totally different in Trump than what most Americans might think we see in him on the surface of it, far away from naive dog love towards anyone who scratches it's beck, though it might seem egoistic like that. Without getting into You domestic issues, he has moved more wheels and perceptions in 2 years than most of the previous American administrations combined in the last 70-100 years.
IMHO

Israel's views of tbe situation represent only one party's view of the situation on the ground. There is another party involved who's views are now marginalized. Each adds their own bias' to events. Of course you like Trump. He sees it from ONLY one view and endorses that view with prejudice.

And --- IS there a "Palestinian view" of the situation? I think not. Who are the anointed leaders that speak for ALL Palestinians? Including the 300,000 ex-pats or exiles?

The dumb western strategy has been to FORCE a "Palestinian unification" in a form of NATIONALISM that is completely alien to the Palestinians. They don't want it. They don't TRUST IT. And they have seen where Western IMPOSED nationalism has only led to corrupt, strong-man Arab governments - full of corruption, cronyism, and totalitarian measures.

The WEST brought nationalism to the Middle East. It's not natural. OVER 1/2 of Palestinians see the PA that way right now. As corrupt, inept and having too much power over the tribal, sectarian, familial lines of control that they prefer..

I think many of sympathizers, you might be included, have LEPT to the same dumb concept of a "unified" Palestinian democracy of some sort that probably should NEVER exist -- speaking on behalf of ALL of them.

So what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?

"So what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?"





President Trump......



..but, "what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?"



He's done enough..... finding a "qualified [person] on the pali side"....there "ain't" many [none] to choose from....let's just "suggest" some people to send over there and try and help broker peace between THE terrorists and israel:


- The Clergy Calvary:







- what about whats-his-face ?





-
whadda gonna do?





- what about.... Joe? he's good at debates

 

[Coyote]

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

It's necessary for security certainly. But at a huge cost to Israel. And it's not gonna suddenly change Hamas back into a fuzzy coddly "social welfare" organization ----- EVER...

It's a huge cost to Israel (though arguably) because it CHOOSES to so, the same as we choose to help out enemies, if they agree, during catastrophic events.
Why? Because these are our values.

But what is different between any other aid and Israeli aid?
Israel is the only player with the finger on the pulse, with the intelligence and understanding of the situation on the ground in real time. Israel is the only one who can really monitor and make practical decisions regarding the viability of this or that help we provide. All others look from outside scratching their head from afar, attempting to pay off their image just not to be identified with the perceptual victim-hood.

Only once in several generations comes a western leader who instinctively gets it, we see it now, and as a result we have this desperate realization that something has to be immediately changed at the root - this thread is merely a symptom of how wheels have started to turn in a different direction since Trump got into office.

Though I understand we might have a diametrically opposing perspectives on the situation, how it looks from US and how it looks from here; We see something totally different in Trump than what most Americans might think we see in him on the surface of it, far away from naive dog love towards anyone who scratches it's beck, though it might seem egoistic like that. Without getting into You domestic issues, he has moved more wheels and perceptions in 2 years than most of the previous American administrations combined in the last 70-100 years.
IMHO

Israel's views of tbe situation represent only one party's view of the situation on the ground. There is another party involved who's views are now marginalized. Each adds their own bias' to events. Of course you like Trump. He sees it from ONLY one view and endorses that view with prejudice.

This is total moral corruption.
Wasn't the same "let's be fair to all" rhetoric used by Hitler's American sympathizers when the US decided to "marginalize" the Reich?

Oh brilliant, let’s resort to Hitler comparisons. Of course ONLY Israel can possibly have the only moral and absolutely correct view.

 

[Coyote]

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

It's necessary for security certainly. But at a huge cost to Israel. And it's not gonna suddenly change Hamas back into a fuzzy coddly "social welfare" organization ----- EVER...

It's a huge cost to Israel (though arguably) because it CHOOSES to so, the same as we choose to help out enemies, if they agree, during catastrophic events.
Why? Because these are our values.

But what is different between any other aid and Israeli aid?
Israel is the only player with the finger on the pulse, with the intelligence and understanding of the situation on the ground in real time. Israel is the only one who can really monitor and make practical decisions regarding the viability of this or that help we provide. All others look from outside scratching their head from afar, attempting to pay off their image just not to be identified with the perceptual victim-hood.

Only once in several generations comes a western leader who instinctively gets it, we see it now, and as a result we have this desperate realization that something has to be immediately changed at the root - this thread is merely a symptom of how wheels have started to turn in a different direction since Trump got into office.

Though I understand we might have a diametrically opposing perspectives on the situation, how it looks from US and how it looks from here; We see something totally different in Trump than what most Americans might think we see in him on the surface of it, far away from naive dog love towards anyone who scratches it's beck, though it might seem egoistic like that. Without getting into You domestic issues, he has moved more wheels and perceptions in 2 years than most of the previous American administrations combined in the last 70-100 years.
IMHO

Israel's views of tbe situation represent only one party's view of the situation on the ground. There is another party involved who's views are now marginalized. Each adds their own bias' to events. Of course you like Trump. He sees it from ONLY one view and endorses that view with prejudice.

And --- IS there a "Palestinian view" of the situation? I think not. Who are the anointed leaders that speak for ALL Palestinians? Including the 300,000 ex-pats or exiles?

The dumb western strategy has been to FORCE a "Palestinian unification" in a form of NATIONALISM that is completely alien to the Palestinians. They don't want it. They don't TRUST IT. And they have seen where Western IMPOSED nationalism has only led to corrupt, strong-man Arab governments - full of corruption, cronyism, and totalitarian measures.

The WEST brought nationalism to the Middle East. It's not natural. OVER 1/2 of Palestinians see the PA that way right now. As corrupt, inept and having too much power over the tribal, sectarian, familial lines of control that they prefer..

I think many of sympathizers, you might be included, have LEPT to the same dumb concept of a "unified" Palestinian democracy of some sort that probably should NEVER exist -- speaking on behalf of ALL of them.

So what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?

Actually I have not leapt to the view of a unified Palestinian democracy. I even STARTED a thread on a wholly different way of looking at it. I am trying to figure how that means there still can’t be Palestinian views or how only Israel’s view is correct? This lines up with the impression I get from Pro-Israel faction that Israel can do no wrong when comes to the Palestinians.

 

[Coyote]

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

It's necessary for security certainly. But at a huge cost to Israel. And it's not gonna suddenly change Hamas back into a fuzzy coddly "social welfare" organization ----- EVER...

It's a huge cost to Israel (though arguably) because it CHOOSES to so, the same as we choose to help out enemies, if they agree, during catastrophic events.
Why? Because these are our values.

But what is different between any other aid and Israeli aid?
Israel is the only player with the finger on the pulse, with the intelligence and understanding of the situation on the ground in real time. Israel is the only one who can really monitor and make practical decisions regarding the viability of this or that help we provide. All others look from outside scratching their head from afar, attempting to pay off their image just not to be identified with the perceptual victim-hood.

Only once in several generations comes a western leader who instinctively gets it, we see it now, and as a result we have this desperate realization that something has to be immediately changed at the root - this thread is merely a symptom of how wheels have started to turn in a different direction since Trump got into office.

Though I understand we might have a diametrically opposing perspectives on the situation, how it looks from US and how it looks from here; We see something totally different in Trump than what most Americans might think we see in him on the surface of it, far away from naive dog love towards anyone who scratches it's beck, though it might seem egoistic like that. Without getting into You domestic issues, he has moved more wheels and perceptions in 2 years than most of the previous American administrations combined in the last 70-100 years.
IMHO

Israel's views of tbe situation represent only one party's view of the situation on the ground. There is another party involved who's views are now marginalized. Each adds their own bias' to events. Of course you like Trump. He sees it from ONLY one view and endorses that view with prejudice.

And --- IS there a "Palestinian view" of the situation? I think not. Who are the anointed leaders that speak for ALL Palestinians? Including the 300,000 ex-pats or exiles?

The dumb western strategy has been to FORCE a "Palestinian unification" in a form of NATIONALISM that is completely alien to the Palestinians. They don't want it. They don't TRUST IT. And they have seen where Western IMPOSED nationalism has only led to corrupt, strong-man Arab governments - full of corruption, cronyism, and totalitarian measures.

The WEST brought nationalism to the Middle East. It's not natural. OVER 1/2 of Palestinians see the PA that way right now. As corrupt, inept and having too much power over the tribal, sectarian, familial lines of control that they prefer..

I think many of sympathizers, you might be included, have LEPT to the same dumb concept of a "unified" Palestinian democracy of some sort that probably should NEVER exist -- speaking on behalf of ALL of them.

So what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?

I would suggest he start by not throwing the Palestinians under the bus.

 

[Coyote]

Only when the US locks up entire nations under criminally insane madmen like Sadam Hussein or the Kim jungs and then takes the keys to their economies for 10 years or more. Really BAD things happen. But THAT'S perfectly fine according to BOTH sides of the US political handbook..

Only makes US a mere accomplice to genocide.

Wait. Are you arguing against embargo?

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

Only when the US locks up entire nations under criminally insane madmen like Sadam Hussein or the Kim jungs and then takes the keys to their economies for 10 years or more. Really BAD things happen. But THAT'S perfectly fine according to BOTH sides of the US political handbook..

Only makes US a mere accomplice to genocide.

Wait. Are you arguing against embargo?

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

They are not being genocided, Hamas is not going around the world killing Jews. It is a conflict and Hamas deliberately targets civilians but that isnt genocide.

They do use language that calls it to mind. "Rip the hearts out of Jews".

When was the last time they said that? And who said it?

 

[Coyote]

Just as an fyi...I used genocide carefully. Not in relation to embargos but to a a comment on collective punishment. You have to admit, genocide is the ultimate collective punishment.

You used the term genocide in order to deceive.

There has been no genocide committed against the made up group of Arabs called "Palestinian", nor has there been anything even remotely close to it. Their population has exploded in the last several decades, so it is an insult to people's intelligence that you try to link the term "genocide" to the standard terrorist propaganda term "collective punishment" to suggest that it applies to this situation. It doesn't.

The only people of the two to have experienced genocide are the Jews, and the only group ADVOCATING genocide are Palestinian. Genocide is one of the listed objectives of Hamas, which promises to kill Jews until they hide behind rocks and trees.

Again. I have never said Israel committed genocide. You are deliberately distorting what I say.

Hamas is a terrorist group.

What evidence do you have that the Palestinians are attempting genocide?

 

[Coyote]

Its also another example of applying a double standard to Israel where common and accepted political and military strategies are re-labelled as something else so as to demonize Israel. No where else are embargos, blockades and defending your own borders defined as "collective punishment".

She is just repeating the made up buzz terms she finds at the terrorist sites she finds to make up her world view. All the Pally Propagandists use the same jargon as their posts are filled with the de rigueur phrases like "Bantustans", "Collective Punishment" and "open air prisons" so carefully selected for them.

She might as well claim that the bars around a bank vault are "collective punishment" towards all would-be bank robbers as she tries to use the bars to justify robbing the bank.

The terrorist propaganda sites use the term "collective punishment" to justify terrorism in a similar fashion. While such silly ruses do not work on those with an awareness of the conflict gained through a legitimate educational process, they seems to be quite seductive for virtue signaling warriors who know nothing whatsoever, and are looking to fill the void.

So now I am the topic? Is that your discussion strategy here?

 

[flacaltenn]

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

It's necessary for security certainly. But at a huge cost to Israel. And it's not gonna suddenly change Hamas back into a fuzzy coddly "social welfare" organization ----- EVER...

It's a huge cost to Israel (though arguably) because it CHOOSES to so, the same as we choose to help out enemies, if they agree, during catastrophic events.
Why? Because these are our values.

But what is different between any other aid and Israeli aid?
Israel is the only player with the finger on the pulse, with the intelligence and understanding of the situation on the ground in real time. Israel is the only one who can really monitor and make practical decisions regarding the viability of this or that help we provide. All others look from outside scratching their head from afar, attempting to pay off their image just not to be identified with the perceptual victim-hood.

Only once in several generations comes a western leader who instinctively gets it, we see it now, and as a result we have this desperate realization that something has to be immediately changed at the root - this thread is merely a symptom of how wheels have started to turn in a different direction since Trump got into office.

Though I understand we might have a diametrically opposing perspectives on the situation, how it looks from US and how it looks from here; We see something totally different in Trump than what most Americans might think we see in him on the surface of it, far away from naive dog love towards anyone who scratches it's beck, though it might seem egoistic like that. Without getting into You domestic issues, he has moved more wheels and perceptions in 2 years than most of the previous American administrations combined in the last 70-100 years.
IMHO

Israel's views of tbe situation represent only one party's view of the situation on the ground. There is another party involved who's views are now marginalized. Each adds their own bias' to events. Of course you like Trump. He sees it from ONLY one view and endorses that view with prejudice.

And --- IS there a "Palestinian view" of the situation? I think not. Who are the anointed leaders that speak for ALL Palestinians? Including the 300,000 ex-pats or exiles?

The dumb western strategy has been to FORCE a "Palestinian unification" in a form of NATIONALISM that is completely alien to the Palestinians. They don't want it. They don't TRUST IT. And they have seen where Western IMPOSED nationalism has only led to corrupt, strong-man Arab governments - full of corruption, cronyism, and totalitarian measures.

The WEST brought nationalism to the Middle East. It's not natural. OVER 1/2 of Palestinians see the PA that way right now. As corrupt, inept and having too much power over the tribal, sectarian, familial lines of control that they prefer..

I think many of sympathizers, you might be included, have LEPT to the same dumb concept of a "unified" Palestinian democracy of some sort that probably should NEVER exist -- speaking on behalf of ALL of them.

So what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?

Actually I have not leapt to the view of a unified Palestinian democracy. I even STARTED a thread on a wholly different way of looking at it. I am trying to figure how that means there still can’t be Palestinian views or how only Israel’s view is correct? This lines up with the impression I get from Pro-Israel faction that Israel can do no wrong when comes to the Palestinians.

But you ASSUME their IS a "Palestinian position" to take !!! If that position is so well articulated and represented, the PA would STILL BE in business wouldn't they?

So you ARE starting with a flawed premise that Israel has all the "partners in peace" lined up at a table -- and that's FAR from the truth. WHO are they supposed to negotiate with -- YOU?

Where ARE the "Palestinians"? 1/2 of them aren't even enjoying the relative prosperity in Israel, but living in dingy camps under guard of Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan. Do you represent THOSE Palestinians as well? Or only the ones that "tortured and tormented" in Israel?

 

[flacaltenn]

Just told you that more than 1/2 of the Israeli residing Palestinians view the PA as corrupt and dangerous. Only about 30% have confidence in Hamas to play a role in ANY government under a flag of Palestine. And NEITHER of those leadership groups want to be friends.

So WHAT IS --- the "Palestinian viewpoint"?? Is it what The Atlantic, Mother Jones or NPR says of their plight? Is that their voice??

Don't ding Israel or Trump for THAT problem. You just piss people off who understand why the Palis are "under-represented" in any negotiations.

 

[flacaltenn]

Do Palestinians Still Support the Two-State Solution?

Support for the two-state solution is at its lowest level since Oslo, with only 43 percent of Palestinians saying they would accept it. More than half of the public views the PA as a burden on the Palestinian people, and a large majority, ranging from 60 to 70 percent in 2018, demands the resignation of the PA president, Mahmoud Abbas. Public support for Hamas, the largest Islamist faction in Palestine, stands at about one-third, compared to about 40 percent for Fatah, the mainstream nationalist faction. Confidence in diplomacy has plummeted: only 25 percent of Palestinians believe that a Palestinian state will emerge in the next five years. Violence is increasingly popular, particularly among the youth, and on several occasions during the past three years a majority of the public has supported it.

Not coincidentally, during this same period Israeli settlement construction in occupied Palestine has continued unabated. The size of the settlement enterprise today is four times what it was when Oslo was signed: it has grown from around 100,000 settlements in 1993 to more than 400,000 (not including East Jerusalem or the Gaza Strip) today. In the past few years, 55 to 65 percent of Palestinians have said that they believe that settlement construction has expanded so much that the two-state solution is no longer practical or feasible. On average, three-quarters of those who reach this conclusion shift to opposing the two-state solution, while a similar percentage of those who think the two-state solution remains feasible remain in favor of it. In other words, support for the two-state solution is strongly linked to perceptions of feasibility, and settlements are making it seem unfeasible.

The decline in support for the two-state solution among Israeli Jews parallels that among Palestinians, and the level of public support for it—43 percent—is identical to that among Palestinians. On the Israeli Jewish side, too, support is linked to perceptions of feasibility. Today, almost half of Israeli Jews believe that settlement expansion is making the two-state solution impractical. However, this does not equate to a consensus among Israeli Jews that settlements are destructive to peace-making, because unlike most Palestinians, they don’t necessarily see the two-state solution as the only path to peace. Many Israeli Jews view Palestinian self-rule, a slightly modified version of the status quo, as an acceptable solution.

 

[Coyote]

It's necessary for security certainly. But at a huge cost to Israel. And it's not gonna suddenly change Hamas back into a fuzzy coddly "social welfare" organization ----- EVER...

It's a huge cost to Israel (though arguably) because it CHOOSES to so, the same as we choose to help out enemies, if they agree, during catastrophic events.
Why? Because these are our values.

But what is different between any other aid and Israeli aid?
Israel is the only player with the finger on the pulse, with the intelligence and understanding of the situation on the ground in real time. Israel is the only one who can really monitor and make practical decisions regarding the viability of this or that help we provide. All others look from outside scratching their head from afar, attempting to pay off their image just not to be identified with the perceptual victim-hood.

Only once in several generations comes a western leader who instinctively gets it, we see it now, and as a result we have this desperate realization that something has to be immediately changed at the root - this thread is merely a symptom of how wheels have started to turn in a different direction since Trump got into office.

Though I understand we might have a diametrically opposing perspectives on the situation, how it looks from US and how it looks from here; We see something totally different in Trump than what most Americans might think we see in him on the surface of it, far away from naive dog love towards anyone who scratches it's beck, though it might seem egoistic like that. Without getting into You domestic issues, he has moved more wheels and perceptions in 2 years than most of the previous American administrations combined in the last 70-100 years.
IMHO

Israel's views of tbe situation represent only one party's view of the situation on the ground. There is another party involved who's views are now marginalized. Each adds their own bias' to events. Of course you like Trump. He sees it from ONLY one view and endorses that view with prejudice.

And --- IS there a "Palestinian view" of the situation? I think not. Who are the anointed leaders that speak for ALL Palestinians? Including the 300,000 ex-pats or exiles?

The dumb western strategy has been to FORCE a "Palestinian unification" in a form of NATIONALISM that is completely alien to the Palestinians. They don't want it. They don't TRUST IT. And they have seen where Western IMPOSED nationalism has only led to corrupt, strong-man Arab governments - full of corruption, cronyism, and totalitarian measures.

The WEST brought nationalism to the Middle East. It's not natural. OVER 1/2 of Palestinians see the PA that way right now. As corrupt, inept and having too much power over the tribal, sectarian, familial lines of control that they prefer..

I think many of sympathizers, you might be included, have LEPT to the same dumb concept of a "unified" Palestinian democracy of some sort that probably should NEVER exist -- speaking on behalf of ALL of them.

So what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?

Actually I have not leapt to the view of a unified Palestinian democracy. I even STARTED a thread on a wholly different way of looking at it. I am trying to figure how that means there still can’t be Palestinian views or how only Israel’s view is correct? This lines up with the impression I get from Pro-Israel faction that Israel can do no wrong when comes to the Palestinians.

But you ASSUME their IS a "Palestinian position" to take !!! If that position is so well articulated and represented, the PA would STILL BE in business wouldn't they?

So you ARE starting with a flawed premise that Israel has all the "partners in peace" lined up at a table -- and that's FAR from the truth. WHO are they supposed to negotiate with -- YOU?

Where ARE the "Palestinians"? 1/2 of them aren't even enjoying the relative prosperity in Israel, but living in dingy camps under guard of Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan. Do you represent THOSE Palestinians as well? Or only the ones that "tortured and tormented" in Israel?

What the hell are you talking about? All Palestinians. That is what I am referring to. And I have not said anything about torturing or tormenting so do not put words in my mouth. I have also consistently said that Israel lacks a negotiating partner that speaks for all Palestinians so would you stop putting words in my mouth?

In the meantime what is Trumps strategy here because all I am seeing is pissy vengeful behavior because the Palestinians arent properly humble and adoring after he gave on Jerusalem whole and undivided to Israel.

 

[Coyote]

Just told you that more than 1/2 of the Israeli residing Palestinians view the PA as corrupt and dangerous. Only about 30% have confidence in Hamas to play a role in ANY government under a flag of Palestine. And NEITHER of those leadership groups want to be friends.

So WHAT IS --- the "Palestinian viewpoint"?? Is it what The Atlantic, Mother Jones or NPR says of their plight? Is that their voice??

Don't ding Israel or Trump for THAT problem. You just piss people off who understand why the Palis are "under-represented" in any negotiations.

I don’t disagree. But I WILL ding Trump for lack of any comprehensive strategy.

 

[Dan Stubbs]

I originally posted this in another thread as a response...but it's intriguing enough to deserve it's own discussion. I adamently oppose the Trump administration's unilateral cutting off of all aid to the Palestinians. Trump has no Middle East plan - all he believes in is punishing people into submission without regard to human suffering. However, this article offers some good ideas on how aid could be structured more effectively.



Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians

With prospects for diplomacy dim, with the need to change reality on the ground to restore a sense of possibility, and with past lessons showing that assistance should be used to promote development and reduce Israeli-Palestinian friction, we propose three recommendations for Congress to reprogram the $200 million fiscal 2018 monies to create a more stable economic, political and security environment in Gaza and the West Bank:

First, use that assistance to take water off the negotiating table. In the not too distant past, water negotiations were zero-sum, given the limited supply of water between the Mediterranean and Jordan River. Now, due to technological gains in water desalination, water use and reuse, water negotiations are no longer binary trade-offs. Instead, they can focus on the much simpler challenges of distribution and pricing.

What could this mean in practice? U.S. assistance in Gaza can fund a small solar field to power the existing Gaza Wastewater Treatment Plant, build up the community-based solar desalination units piloted by MIT, expand the UNICEF solar-fuel facility in Gaza’s Khan Younis neighborhood, initiate additional phases of the World Bank-funded North Gaza Emergency Sanitation Treatment plant, and repair water infrastructure degraded by three wars. Water also is directly linked to electricity; progress in water and sanitation will yield a better, more predictable power supply. There is real potential for small-scale, renewable power throughout Gaza, supplying energy at the community level while minimizing the risk of disruption historically associated with Gaza’s power plant.

Second, U.S. assistance should be used to substantially expand trade between Palestinians and Israelis. Consider the northern West Bank city of Jenin: Israel decided 15 years ago that if it opened a crossing point so Israeli Arabs could shop in the West Bank, it would be a stabilizer, even though the Second Intifada rebellion was ongoing. That calculation was successful; increased Palestinian trade has reduced unemployment in the northern West Bank from reportedly 50 percent in 2003 to below 20 percent now. These robust trading channels have opened sustainable opportunities for small and medium-sized businesses, improved local governance and fostered broad-based security for Palestinians and Israelis alike. In 2003, Jenin was the center for suicide bombers during the peak of the Second Intifada but now is one of the more successful Palestinian cities.

The Jenin model is replicable. American aid can help establish similar trading zones in the West Bank city of Qalqilya where Palestinian traders, shopkeepers and small businesses can sell directly to the large Israeli Arab community a few miles away. The Jenin model also can work in Gaza: Palestinian textile manufacturers have relationships with Israeli designers and European markets; Gaza historically supplied much of the fresh fruits and vegetables in Israel. These relationships could restart in months with the sustained, predictable opening of the Karem Shalom crossing and additional trading corridors from Erez or elsewhere.

Perhaps most interesting is the nascent but growing Gaza tech sector, where Gaza Sky Geeks is incubating Palestinian start-ups and more established firms are initiating software development with tech firms in Israel and beyond. Israel’s tech industry has more than 10,000 unfilled jobs which could be filled from the surplus of high-tech graduates in the West Bank and Gaza.

Third, education is a key foundation for a better future. Israelis and Americans have long criticized the Palestinian Authority for not educating its people for peace. Why not engage American universities and NGOs to elevate the Palestinian education system and prepare Palestinians for a 21st century economy? Bard College has provided long-term teacher training at Al Quds University in which teachers and principals earn an American master’s degree in education and serve as leaders in their schools. Imagine if education programming and people-to-people funding allowed the best cohort of Palestinian youth to study in Israeli universities, intern at Israeli high-tech firms, and do residencies at Israeli hospitals. ​

Wonder how many Millions of Dollars this whole China, solor panels it will take to power the Crap plant. Oh how about a few RPG by some group to take the many millions of dollars down the drain. RPG only cost 1,500 each. I guess Russia China can sell them.

 

[Coyote]

Do Palestinians Still Support the Two-State Solution?

Support for the two-state solution is at its lowest level since Oslo, with only 43 percent of Palestinians saying they would accept it. More than half of the public views the PA as a burden on the Palestinian people, and a large majority, ranging from 60 to 70 percent in 2018, demands the resignation of the PA president, Mahmoud Abbas. Public support for Hamas, the largest Islamist faction in Palestine, stands at about one-third, compared to about 40 percent for Fatah, the mainstream nationalist faction. Confidence in diplomacy has plummeted: only 25 percent of Palestinians believe that a Palestinian state will emerge in the next five years. Violence is increasingly popular, particularly among the youth, and on several occasions during the past three years a majority of the public has supported it.

Not coincidentally, during this same period Israeli settlement construction in occupied Palestine has continued unabated. The size of the settlement enterprise today is four times what it was when Oslo was signed: it has grown from around 100,000 settlements in 1993 to more than 400,000 (not including East Jerusalem or the Gaza Strip) today. In the past few years, 55 to 65 percent of Palestinians have said that they believe that settlement construction has expanded so much that the two-state solution is no longer practical or feasible. On average, three-quarters of those who reach this conclusion shift to opposing the two-state solution, while a similar percentage of those who think the two-state solution remains feasible remain in favor of it. In other words, support for the two-state solution is strongly linked to perceptions of feasibility, and settlements are making it seem unfeasible.

The decline in support for the two-state solution among Israeli Jews parallels that among Palestinians, and the level of public support for it—43 percent—is identical to that among Palestinians. On the Israeli Jewish side, too, support is linked to perceptions of feasibility. Today, almost half of Israeli Jews believe that settlement expansion is making the two-state solution impractical. However, this does not equate to a consensus among Israeli Jews that settlements are destructive to peace-making, because unlike most Palestinians, they don’t necessarily see the two-state solution as the only path to peace. Many Israeli Jews view Palestinian self-rule, a slightly modified version of the status quo, as an acceptable solution.

The only acceptable solution that could be long term is one that grants Palestinians full and complete rights where ever they are. That means countries in which refugee camps exist must absorb and grant citizenship to those Palestinians and the others either need complete autonomy in some way or complete and equal Israeli citizenship. Anything less will just fester.

And keep in mind...almost half of Israeli Jews want to expel all Arabs. Another significant chunk feels Jews should have more rights than non-Jews in Israel. That is going to be tough to reconcile.

 

[Dan Stubbs]

"without regard to human suffering"

Palestinians = ******* terrorists... smh

I suppose that if somebody defines Jewish people as something other than human, then they can propagandize for those wishing to kill them by whining about "human suffering"

The suffering of all those who are terrorized obviously does not count for this particular propagandist.

I ll see if I got it right for the past 55 year. Palestinians hate Jew. people from Iran hate Jews, The last time the Jews got a Peace deal the guy was killed by his own Army. I don't think the Jews should make nicy nicy with the other side.

 

[Dan Stubbs]

Do Palestinians Still Support the Two-State Solution?

Support for the two-state solution is at its lowest level since Oslo, with only 43 percent of Palestinians saying they would accept it. More than half of the public views the PA as a burden on the Palestinian people, and a large majority, ranging from 60 to 70 percent in 2018, demands the resignation of the PA president, Mahmoud Abbas. Public support for Hamas, the largest Islamist faction in Palestine, stands at about one-third, compared to about 40 percent for Fatah, the mainstream nationalist faction. Confidence in diplomacy has plummeted: only 25 percent of Palestinians believe that a Palestinian state will emerge in the next five years. Violence is increasingly popular, particularly among the youth, and on several occasions during the past three years a majority of the public has supported it.

Not coincidentally, during this same period Israeli settlement construction in occupied Palestine has continued unabated. The size of the settlement enterprise today is four times what it was when Oslo was signed: it has grown from around 100,000 settlements in 1993 to more than 400,000 (not including East Jerusalem or the Gaza Strip) today. In the past few years, 55 to 65 percent of Palestinians have said that they believe that settlement construction has expanded so much that the two-state solution is no longer practical or feasible. On average, three-quarters of those who reach this conclusion shift to opposing the two-state solution, while a similar percentage of those who think the two-state solution remains feasible remain in favor of it. In other words, support for the two-state solution is strongly linked to perceptions of feasibility, and settlements are making it seem unfeasible.

The decline in support for the two-state solution among Israeli Jews parallels that among Palestinians, and the level of public support for it—43 percent—is identical to that among Palestinians. On the Israeli Jewish side, too, support is linked to perceptions of feasibility. Today, almost half of Israeli Jews believe that settlement expansion is making the two-state solution impractical. However, this does not equate to a consensus among Israeli Jews that settlements are destructive to peace-making, because unlike most Palestinians, they don’t necessarily see the two-state solution as the only path to peace. Many Israeli Jews view Palestinian self-rule, a slightly modified version of the status quo, as an acceptable solution.

The only acceptable solution that could be long term is one that grants Palestinians full and complete rights where ever they are. That means countries in which refugee camps exist must absorb and grant citizenship to those Palestinians and the others either need complete autonomy in some way or complete and equal Israeli citizenship. Anything less will just fester.

And keep in mind...almost half of Israeli Jews want to expel all Arabs. Another significant chunk feels Jews should have more rights than non-Jews in Israel. That is going to be tough to reconcile.

Just tell them if they take over part of Iran they can keep it as their own Nation, That works. Or tell them France is up for grabs