Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians

[flacaltenn]

Is that a problem for you? Why?

Because I don’t think that is the right thing to do. It is collective punishment and unlike Hamas, the PA is not a terrorist organization.

Collective Murder vs Collective Punishment.
Life’s a *****, ain’t it.

Genocide is the ultimate collective punishment.

There is a good reason it is considered criminal.

And how did you leap to genocide? You think those WBank Palis buying into expensive flats and condos in Wahabi are concerned with genocide??

Because I was responding collective murder vs collective punishment. The extrem end of collective punishment would be genocide don’t you think?

That would be extreme. But it's had 50 years to happen and it hasn't. Israel isn't "punishing" the West Bank. Those cities do not LOOK punished -- do they? In terms of Pali life elsewhere in the Mid East.

 

[P F Tinmore]

What about the West Bank?

The PA should pay their hospital bills instead of paying for the belligerence that is terrorism. Removing aide payments is step one of an embargo. Point is exactly the same.

So now the West Bank will be under embargo as well?

Is that a problem for you? Why?

Because I don’t think that is the right thing to do. It is collective punishment and unlike Hamas, the PA is not a terrorist organization.

Okay. So if someone is being belligerent and you can't place economic sanctions against them And you can't respond with military action, what is the solution to belligerence?

Israel can stop its belligerence any time it wants.

 

[flacaltenn]

Because I don’t think that is the right thing to do. It is collective punishment and unlike Hamas, the PA is not a terrorist organization.

Okay. So if someone is being belligerent and you can't place economic sanctions against them And you can't respond with military action, what is the solution to belligerence?

Being belligerent how?

So, to be clear, you are fine with embargos as a response to belligerence? Yes or no?

It is not a simple yes or no. It depends on how you define belligerence. Is ugly rhetoric belligerence? And how extreme the embargo is. At what point does it become a siege?

I would argue that ugly words which have an effect of actual, physical violence is without doubt belligerence. I would argue that incitement or encouragement of actual, physical violence is belligerence. I would argue that paying people to commit violence is certainly belligerence.

Is embargo EVER a legitimate response to belligerence? Yes or no?

Only when the US locks up entire nations under criminally insane madmen like Sadam Hussein or the Kim jungs and then takes the keys to their economies for 10 years or more. Really BAD things happen. But THAT'S perfectly fine according to BOTH sides of the US political handbook..

Only makes US a mere accomplice to genocide.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Because I was responding collective murder vs collective punishment. The extreme end of collective punishment would be genocide don’t you think?

Well, I suppose you could always try being more sympathetic to those who have actually experienced one and a whole lot less sympathetic to those who wish to perpetrate another one.

 

[Shusha]

Okay. So if someone is being belligerent and you can't place economic sanctions against them And you can't respond with military action, what is the solution to belligerence?

Being belligerent how?

So, to be clear, you are fine with embargos as a response to belligerence? Yes or no?

It is not a simple yes or no. It depends on how you define belligerence. Is ugly rhetoric belligerence? And how extreme the embargo is. At what point does it become a siege?

I would argue that ugly words which have an effect of actual, physical violence is without doubt belligerence. I would argue that incitement or encouragement of actual, physical violence is belligerence. I would argue that paying people to commit violence is certainly belligerence.

Is embargo EVER a legitimate response to belligerence? Yes or no?

Yes. It is a legitimate response to state sponsored belligerence in the form of ACTIONS.

So we would agree that both embargos and blockades are not actually "collective punishment" but legitimate responses to belligerence, yes?

 

[Shusha]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

While neither the West Bank or the Gaza Strip have specific trade agreements; it does not mean there is no trade:

West Bank + Gaza Strip* Exports:
$1.955 billion (2017 est.) $1.827 billion (2016 est.) ​

West Bank + Gaza Strip* Imports:
$6.476 billion (2017 est.) $6.11 billion (2016 est.)
​

While no one claims that the economy of the Territories is flourishing (Ranked 142)(whereas Israel Ranked ≈ 45 @ Imports: $60B). But as we discussed before, neither the Ramallah Government nor the Gaza Government is reinvesting revenue back into the infrastructure and the economy. They don't even have a plan (or for that matter a Prospectus) for the development of Areas "A" or "B."

* NOTE: The Jerusalem Economy and the does not include the
...............Sharia-compliant Finance and, of course, effects of the Wadiah.
​

(COMMENT)

There is no real (unclassified) textbook on the subject of the financial interests of either government (Gaza of Ramallah). Not only is there a matter of Donor Contributions, but there are also undisclosed external covert sources and the contemporary Islamic movements.

On an open market scale, the economies of the West Bank and Gaza Strip is parasitic. Essentially, the Central Bank for the both is the Palestinian Monetary Authority (PMA). It was an outcome of the Oslo I Accords (1994). For all practical purposes, US Aid has little effect on the operation of the PMA in matters of financial stability and sustainable economic growth.

Most Respectfully,
R

Here is another question, who do they export to and import from?

Well I know from the article I'm submitting that 80% of all West Bank exports go to Israel. And about 25% of materials is imported from Israel. It's like Israels own "captive" trading partner. That NEEDS to change. But like everything in a peace proposal -- it's NOT ENTIRELY FIXED BY ISRAEL. There are issues with West Bank trade with Egypt and Jordan as well.

In the case of Jordan, it's a lot of "protectionism" and only a bit of bad feelings. But Egypt isn't really doing much to encourage trade with the West Bank Palis either.

They NEED a Mediterranean seaport and their own Customs and airport. That's only gonna come from a peace proposal that sets a vision for the WHOLE neighborhood.

That is what I thought I had read from one of your posts somewhere. But I also thought I had read they were not allowed to enter into any independent trade deals with other nations.

They do get exports out thru Jordan. Israel has little say in the matter except for collecting taxes and duties. But they don't HAVE global access by any means. Even some isolated pacific islands have more world connections than they do.

That's also NOT Israel's fault. It has more to do with WHAT they export.

Israel should have no real issue with stuff "going out".. If they had the access, the people would design products for a world market. They're very capable of doing business..

Neither the West Bank nor Gaza have any direct access to the outside world without going through Israel. Everything and everybody must pass through Israel so Israel controls everything. (None of the so called generous offers proposed in the fake peace process included direct access to the outside world. Israel would still control everything.) Exporting through Israel is arduous, time consuming, and expensive if allowed at all. Palestine cannot have a functioning economy without free access to markets.

Then there is this thing about productive capacity which is a different story for a different day.

Sure. And the solution to that is to create economic pathways for Gaza through sea trade and for Palestine through Jordan. Not hard.

 

[Shusha]

The PA should pay their hospital bills instead of paying for the belligerence that is terrorism. Removing aide payments is step one of an embargo. Point is exactly the same.

So now the West Bank will be under embargo as well?

Is that a problem for you? Why?

Because I don’t think that is the right thing to do. It is collective punishment and unlike Hamas, the PA is not a terrorist organization.

Okay. So if someone is being belligerent and you can't place economic sanctions against them And you can't respond with military action, what is the solution to belligerence?

Israel can stop its belligerence any time it wants.

By belligerence, on the part of Israel, do you mean the blockade? She absolutely can stop that at any time. She won't until there is some indication that Gaza will stop attacking Israel. Gaza can also stop the belligerence any time.

 

[Shusha]

Okay. So if someone is being belligerent and you can't place economic sanctions against them And you can't respond with military action, what is the solution to belligerence?

Being belligerent how?

So, to be clear, you are fine with embargos as a response to belligerence? Yes or no?

It is not a simple yes or no. It depends on how you define belligerence. Is ugly rhetoric belligerence? And how extreme the embargo is. At what point does it become a siege?

I would argue that ugly words which have an effect of actual, physical violence is without doubt belligerence. I would argue that incitement or encouragement of actual, physical violence is belligerence. I would argue that paying people to commit violence is certainly belligerence.

Is embargo EVER a legitimate response to belligerence? Yes or no?

Only when the US locks up entire nations under criminally insane madmen like Sadam Hussein or the Kim jungs and then takes the keys to their economies for 10 years or more. Really BAD things happen. But THAT'S perfectly fine according to BOTH sides of the US political handbook..

Only makes US a mere accomplice to genocide.

Wait. Are you arguing against embargo?

 

[flacaltenn]

Here is another question, who do they export to and import from?

Well I know from the article I'm submitting that 80% of all West Bank exports go to Israel. And about 25% of materials is imported from Israel. It's like Israels own "captive" trading partner. That NEEDS to change. But like everything in a peace proposal -- it's NOT ENTIRELY FIXED BY ISRAEL. There are issues with West Bank trade with Egypt and Jordan as well.

In the case of Jordan, it's a lot of "protectionism" and only a bit of bad feelings. But Egypt isn't really doing much to encourage trade with the West Bank Palis either.

They NEED a Mediterranean seaport and their own Customs and airport. That's only gonna come from a peace proposal that sets a vision for the WHOLE neighborhood.

That is what I thought I had read from one of your posts somewhere. But I also thought I had read they were not allowed to enter into any independent trade deals with other nations.

They do get exports out thru Jordan. Israel has little say in the matter except for collecting taxes and duties. But they don't HAVE global access by any means. Even some isolated pacific islands have more world connections than they do.

That's also NOT Israel's fault. It has more to do with WHAT they export.

Israel should have no real issue with stuff "going out".. If they had the access, the people would design products for a world market. They're very capable of doing business..

Neither the West Bank nor Gaza have any direct access to the outside world without going through Israel. Everything and everybody must pass through Israel so Israel controls everything. (None of the so called generous offers proposed in the fake peace process included direct access to the outside world. Israel would still control everything.) Exporting through Israel is arduous, time consuming, and expensive if allowed at all. Palestine cannot have a functioning economy without free access to markets.

Then there is this thing about productive capacity which is a different story for a different day.

Sure. And the solution to that is to create economic pathways for Gaza through sea trade and for Palestine through Jordan. Not hard.

AND into Egypt as well. The type of "aid" the Palestinians need is a peace proposal that PROVIDES that incentive for them and the Arab neighbors. And the connectivity to trade and commerce that's always left for last details in a peace process.

I'm only leaving this Palestine Trade Zone map up tonight. Consider it a "teaser" until I negotiate publication rights, but instead of focusing on a map on a table and quarrelling over marginal land that's either to steep to support development or too barren and inaccessible, you need to START the negotiations with a vision for entire neighborhood.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Here is another question, who do they export to and import from?

Well I know from the article I'm submitting that 80% of all West Bank exports go to Israel. And about 25% of materials is imported from Israel. It's like Israels own "captive" trading partner. That NEEDS to change. But like everything in a peace proposal -- it's NOT ENTIRELY FIXED BY ISRAEL. There are issues with West Bank trade with Egypt and Jordan as well.

In the case of Jordan, it's a lot of "protectionism" and only a bit of bad feelings. But Egypt isn't really doing much to encourage trade with the West Bank Palis either.

They NEED a Mediterranean seaport and their own Customs and airport. That's only gonna come from a peace proposal that sets a vision for the WHOLE neighborhood.

That is what I thought I had read from one of your posts somewhere. But I also thought I had read they were not allowed to enter into any independent trade deals with other nations.

They do get exports out thru Jordan. Israel has little say in the matter except for collecting taxes and duties. But they don't HAVE global access by any means. Even some isolated pacific islands have more world connections than they do.

That's also NOT Israel's fault. It has more to do with WHAT they export.

Israel should have no real issue with stuff "going out".. If they had the access, the people would design products for a world market. They're very capable of doing business..

Neither the West Bank nor Gaza have any direct access to the outside world without going through Israel. Everything and everybody must pass through Israel so Israel controls everything. (None of the so called generous offers proposed in the fake peace process included direct access to the outside world. Israel would still control everything.) Exporting through Israel is arduous, time consuming, and expensive if allowed at all. Palestine cannot have a functioning economy without free access to markets.

Then there is this thing about productive capacity which is a different story for a different day.

Sure. And the solution to that is to create economic pathways for Gaza through sea trade and for Palestine through Jordan. Not hard.

Israel won't let that happen. Israel has always throttled Palestine's economy.

 

[Shusha]

Well I know from the article I'm submitting that 80% of all West Bank exports go to Israel. And about 25% of materials is imported from Israel. It's like Israels own "captive" trading partner. That NEEDS to change. But like everything in a peace proposal -- it's NOT ENTIRELY FIXED BY ISRAEL. There are issues with West Bank trade with Egypt and Jordan as well.

In the case of Jordan, it's a lot of "protectionism" and only a bit of bad feelings. But Egypt isn't really doing much to encourage trade with the West Bank Palis either.

They NEED a Mediterranean seaport and their own Customs and airport. That's only gonna come from a peace proposal that sets a vision for the WHOLE neighborhood.

That is what I thought I had read from one of your posts somewhere. But I also thought I had read they were not allowed to enter into any independent trade deals with other nations.

They do get exports out thru Jordan. Israel has little say in the matter except for collecting taxes and duties. But they don't HAVE global access by any means. Even some isolated pacific islands have more world connections than they do.

That's also NOT Israel's fault. It has more to do with WHAT they export.

Israel should have no real issue with stuff "going out".. If they had the access, the people would design products for a world market. They're very capable of doing business..

Neither the West Bank nor Gaza have any direct access to the outside world without going through Israel. Everything and everybody must pass through Israel so Israel controls everything. (None of the so called generous offers proposed in the fake peace process included direct access to the outside world. Israel would still control everything.) Exporting through Israel is arduous, time consuming, and expensive if allowed at all. Palestine cannot have a functioning economy without free access to markets.

Then there is this thing about productive capacity which is a different story for a different day.

Sure. And the solution to that is to create economic pathways for Gaza through sea trade and for Palestine through Jordan. Not hard.

AND into Egypt as well. The type of "aid" the Palestinians need is a peace proposal that PROVIDES that incentive for them and the Arab neighbors. And the connectivity to trade and commerce that's always left for last details in a peace process.

I'm only leaving this up tonight. Consider it a "teaser" until I negotiate publication rights, but instead of focusing on a map on a table and quarrelling over marginal land that's either to steep to support development or too barren and inaccessible, you need to START the negotiations with a vision for entire neighborhood.

I think your assumption that its only a matter of providing the "right" incentive is the solution, is wrong and naive.

 

[P F Tinmore]

So now the West Bank will be under embargo as well?

Is that a problem for you? Why?

Because I don’t think that is the right thing to do. It is collective punishment and unlike Hamas, the PA is not a terrorist organization.

Okay. So if someone is being belligerent and you can't place economic sanctions against them And you can't respond with military action, what is the solution to belligerence?

Israel can stop its belligerence any time it wants.

By belligerence, on the part of Israel, do you mean the blockade? She absolutely can stop that at any time. She won't until there is some indication that Gaza will stop attacking Israel. Gaza can also stop the belligerence any time.

No, I mean the destruction of homes, farms, and factories. Stealing land and shooting unarmed civilians.

 

[flacaltenn]

Being belligerent how?

So, to be clear, you are fine with embargos as a response to belligerence? Yes or no?

It is not a simple yes or no. It depends on how you define belligerence. Is ugly rhetoric belligerence? And how extreme the embargo is. At what point does it become a siege?

I would argue that ugly words which have an effect of actual, physical violence is without doubt belligerence. I would argue that incitement or encouragement of actual, physical violence is belligerence. I would argue that paying people to commit violence is certainly belligerence.

Is embargo EVER a legitimate response to belligerence? Yes or no?

Only when the US locks up entire nations under criminally insane madmen like Sadam Hussein or the Kim jungs and then takes the keys to their economies for 10 years or more. Really BAD things happen. But THAT'S perfectly fine according to BOTH sides of the US political handbook..

Only makes US a mere accomplice to genocide.

Wait. Are you arguing against embargo?

Our history with embargoes is not really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

 

[Shusha]

Well I know from the article I'm submitting that 80% of all West Bank exports go to Israel. And about 25% of materials is imported from Israel. It's like Israels own "captive" trading partner. That NEEDS to change. But like everything in a peace proposal -- it's NOT ENTIRELY FIXED BY ISRAEL. There are issues with West Bank trade with Egypt and Jordan as well.

In the case of Jordan, it's a lot of "protectionism" and only a bit of bad feelings. But Egypt isn't really doing much to encourage trade with the West Bank Palis either.

They NEED a Mediterranean seaport and their own Customs and airport. That's only gonna come from a peace proposal that sets a vision for the WHOLE neighborhood.

That is what I thought I had read from one of your posts somewhere. But I also thought I had read they were not allowed to enter into any independent trade deals with other nations.

They do get exports out thru Jordan. Israel has little say in the matter except for collecting taxes and duties. But they don't HAVE global access by any means. Even some isolated pacific islands have more world connections than they do.

That's also NOT Israel's fault. It has more to do with WHAT they export.

Israel should have no real issue with stuff "going out".. If they had the access, the people would design products for a world market. They're very capable of doing business..

Neither the West Bank nor Gaza have any direct access to the outside world without going through Israel. Everything and everybody must pass through Israel so Israel controls everything. (None of the so called generous offers proposed in the fake peace process included direct access to the outside world. Israel would still control everything.) Exporting through Israel is arduous, time consuming, and expensive if allowed at all. Palestine cannot have a functioning economy without free access to markets.

Then there is this thing about productive capacity which is a different story for a different day.

Sure. And the solution to that is to create economic pathways for Gaza through sea trade and for Palestine through Jordan. Not hard.

Israel won't let that happen. Israel has always throttled Palestine's economy.

Its in Israel's best interests to let it happen. As long as Israel's security is not threatened. Stop attacking Israel and she will let it happen.

 

[flacaltenn]

That is what I thought I had read from one of your posts somewhere. But I also thought I had read they were not allowed to enter into any independent trade deals with other nations.

They do get exports out thru Jordan. Israel has little say in the matter except for collecting taxes and duties. But they don't HAVE global access by any means. Even some isolated pacific islands have more world connections than they do.

That's also NOT Israel's fault. It has more to do with WHAT they export.

Israel should have no real issue with stuff "going out".. If they had the access, the people would design products for a world market. They're very capable of doing business..

Neither the West Bank nor Gaza have any direct access to the outside world without going through Israel. Everything and everybody must pass through Israel so Israel controls everything. (None of the so called generous offers proposed in the fake peace process included direct access to the outside world. Israel would still control everything.) Exporting through Israel is arduous, time consuming, and expensive if allowed at all. Palestine cannot have a functioning economy without free access to markets.

Then there is this thing about productive capacity which is a different story for a different day.

Sure. And the solution to that is to create economic pathways for Gaza through sea trade and for Palestine through Jordan. Not hard.

AND into Egypt as well. The type of "aid" the Palestinians need is a peace proposal that PROVIDES that incentive for them and the Arab neighbors. And the connectivity to trade and commerce that's always left for last details in a peace process.

I'm only leaving this up tonight. Consider it a "teaser" until I negotiate publication rights, but instead of focusing on a map on a table and quarrelling over marginal land that's either to steep to support development or too barren and inaccessible, you need to START the negotiations with a vision for entire neighborhood.

I think your assumption that its only a matter of providing the "right" incentive is the solution, is wrong and naive.

It's an incentive for Jordan, Egypt, eventually Lebanon to solve THEIR PART of the Palis in exile problems. For the Palis themselves, that incentive is to RE-UNITE all of them under a flag of Palestine in a way that provides a certain future and great chances to actually THRIVE economically. Without digging for that hectare of land in the West Bank during peace negotiations.

AID -- wouldn't even an issue 20 years hence. The Palis are SMACK in the middle of Middle East trade like their ancestors were 2800 years ago.

How long you think Hamas could hold on to control with a Trade Corridor like that one in the map I provided and NO connection to Gaza. While watching the West Bank take advantage of the "incentive"???

 

[Shusha]

So, to be clear, you are fine with embargos as a response to belligerence? Yes or no?

It is not a simple yes or no. It depends on how you define belligerence. Is ugly rhetoric belligerence? And how extreme the embargo is. At what point does it become a siege?

I would argue that ugly words which have an effect of actual, physical violence is without doubt belligerence. I would argue that incitement or encouragement of actual, physical violence is belligerence. I would argue that paying people to commit violence is certainly belligerence.

Is embargo EVER a legitimate response to belligerence? Yes or no?

Only when the US locks up entire nations under criminally insane madmen like Sadam Hussein or the Kim jungs and then takes the keys to their economies for 10 years or more. Really BAD things happen. But THAT'S perfectly fine according to BOTH sides of the US political handbook..

Only makes US a mere accomplice to genocide.

Wait. Are you arguing against embargo?

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

 

[flacaltenn]

It is not a simple yes or no. It depends on how you define belligerence. Is ugly rhetoric belligerence? And how extreme the embargo is. At what point does it become a siege?

I would argue that ugly words which have an effect of actual, physical violence is without doubt belligerence. I would argue that incitement or encouragement of actual, physical violence is belligerence. I would argue that paying people to commit violence is certainly belligerence.

Is embargo EVER a legitimate response to belligerence? Yes or no?

Only when the US locks up entire nations under criminally insane madmen like Sadam Hussein or the Kim jungs and then takes the keys to their economies for 10 years or more. Really BAD things happen. But THAT'S perfectly fine according to BOTH sides of the US political handbook..

Only makes US a mere accomplice to genocide.

Wait. Are you arguing against embargo?

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

It's necessary for security certainly. But at a huge cost to Israel. And it's not gonna suddenly change Hamas back into a fuzzy coddly "social welfare" organization ----- EVER...

 

[P F Tinmore]

That is what I thought I had read from one of your posts somewhere. But I also thought I had read they were not allowed to enter into any independent trade deals with other nations.

They do get exports out thru Jordan. Israel has little say in the matter except for collecting taxes and duties. But they don't HAVE global access by any means. Even some isolated pacific islands have more world connections than they do.

That's also NOT Israel's fault. It has more to do with WHAT they export.

Israel should have no real issue with stuff "going out".. If they had the access, the people would design products for a world market. They're very capable of doing business..

Neither the West Bank nor Gaza have any direct access to the outside world without going through Israel. Everything and everybody must pass through Israel so Israel controls everything. (None of the so called generous offers proposed in the fake peace process included direct access to the outside world. Israel would still control everything.) Exporting through Israel is arduous, time consuming, and expensive if allowed at all. Palestine cannot have a functioning economy without free access to markets.

Then there is this thing about productive capacity which is a different story for a different day.

Sure. And the solution to that is to create economic pathways for Gaza through sea trade and for Palestine through Jordan. Not hard.

Israel won't let that happen. Israel has always throttled Palestine's economy.

Its in Israel's best interests to let it happen. As long as Israel's security is not threatened. Stop attacking Israel and she will let it happen.

You clearly do not understand this conflict.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I would argue that ugly words which have an effect of actual, physical violence is without doubt belligerence. I would argue that incitement or encouragement of actual, physical violence is belligerence. I would argue that paying people to commit violence is certainly belligerence.

Is embargo EVER a legitimate response to belligerence? Yes or no?

Only when the US locks up entire nations under criminally insane madmen like Sadam Hussein or the Kim jungs and then takes the keys to their economies for 10 years or more. Really BAD things happen. But THAT'S perfectly fine according to BOTH sides of the US political handbook..

Only makes US a mere accomplice to genocide.

Wait. Are you arguing against embargo?

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

It's necessary for security certainly. But at a huge cost to Israel. And it's not gonna suddenly change Hamas back into a fuzzy coddly "social welfare" organization ----- EVER...

Indeed, Israel must defend its settler colonial project.

 

[Shusha]

They do get exports out thru Jordan. Israel has little say in the matter except for collecting taxes and duties. But they don't HAVE global access by any means. Even some isolated pacific islands have more world connections than they do.

That's also NOT Israel's fault. It has more to do with WHAT they export.

Israel should have no real issue with stuff "going out".. If they had the access, the people would design products for a world market. They're very capable of doing business..

Neither the West Bank nor Gaza have any direct access to the outside world without going through Israel. Everything and everybody must pass through Israel so Israel controls everything. (None of the so called generous offers proposed in the fake peace process included direct access to the outside world. Israel would still control everything.) Exporting through Israel is arduous, time consuming, and expensive if allowed at all. Palestine cannot have a functioning economy without free access to markets.

Then there is this thing about productive capacity which is a different story for a different day.

Sure. And the solution to that is to create economic pathways for Gaza through sea trade and for Palestine through Jordan. Not hard.

Israel won't let that happen. Israel has always throttled Palestine's economy.

Its in Israel's best interests to let it happen. As long as Israel's security is not threatened. Stop attacking Israel and she will let it happen.

You clearly do not understand this conflict.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Blah, blah, blah. Just like I don't understand legal documents like the Mandate for Palestine. /sarcasm