Religion/ A crutch created by man

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Yup.

If you knew the bible word for word, then you would know what it says about those who are led by false wisdom.

I do in fact. I also know that according to the bible I represent the devils work by my words in this thread.

 

[Foxfyre]

Every culture has its stories and lore, whether arising out of religious concepts--most probably do have religious underpinnings--but the stories are to explain things and use for the purpose of teaching. The Bible is no different. The problem comes when we assume that every word of the Bible is intended to be taken literally as we in the 21st Century would take words literally. But words in the Bible can have as many different connotations and interpretations as some of our own words:

Nerd
Butthole
Egghead
Nut
Techie
Wingnut
Fundie
Etc.

Every one of us would probably write somewhat different descriptions for every one of those terms. Yet they have become commonplace in our culture and few of us make any effort to define them.

As an example of primitive people using stories or metaphor or concepts to explain things, the descendants of our own Anazazi peoples have developed their own lore and methods of teaching. Perhaps some become ingrained as literal history; but most do not any more than most Christians or Jews take many of the most beloved Bible stories as literal history. But both derive deep meaning and teachings from those stories.

From our historical Navajo lore and how they regarded the Anazazi who preceded them:

ANASAZI DIASPORA,
BY SHONTO BEGAY

"Shi cheii, My Grandfather, where did the Anasazi people go?"

"Shi' tsoi, My Grandson, the Anasazi had to leave the land long before Dinéh, the Navajo people, came into the Fourth World."

"But Grandfather, their villages are still here. Please tell me the story of the people who disappeared."

"Yes, My Grandson, those ancient ones were blessed in many ways. They were taught by the spirits ways to live productive and holy lives. They lived and enjoyed the blessings. They built great cities, they made beautiful pottery, they had fields of golden corn. They needed nothing beyond that. But they became lazy. This offended the spirits."

"How?"

"They chose to live easy lives instead of living by the rules they were taught to maintain holiness."

"What were those rules?"

"They were to recognize the gods. To pay them homage. To observe ceremonies. To celebrate seasons. To celebrate births and other stages of life. Special healers were appointed and given power to remove illness and restore harmony. But the healers decided to perform this ceremony for everyone, regardless of their health and age. Four times they were warned not to abuse the ceremony. Four times, they chose not to listen."

"And . . . ?"

"On the fifth day, the great wind rose out of the canyon walls and roared throughout the land. People were lifted out of their homes, out of their villages, out of the canyons and valleys. They were scattered throughout this land never to come together again. The buildings were left standing to remind us for all time what will happen if we choose to forget our history, our stories, and above all, our relation to our mother, the earth."

-- from Navajo Visions and Voices Across the Mesa, Shonto Begay, Scholastic Inc., New York: 1995

There is a large population of christians who are fundamentalists / Literalists who think their bible is an historical account going back to the creation myth. as humanity expands its knowledge of science the less people rely on ancient myths as fact, not so the fundys

And there is a large population of anti-religionists who think all religious are deluded, stupid, brain washed, and clueless and these anti-religionists reject any argument or evidence that would question that.

How is one group less wrong than the other?

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Every culture has its stories and lore, whether arising out of religious concepts--most probably do have religious underpinnings--but the stories are to explain things and use for the purpose of teaching. The Bible is no different. The problem comes when we assume that every word of the Bible is intended to be taken literally as we in the 21st Century would take words literally. But words in the Bible can have as many different connotations and interpretations as some of our own words:

Nerd
Butthole
Egghead
Nut
Techie
Wingnut
Fundie
Etc.

Every one of us would probably write somewhat different descriptions for every one of those terms. Yet they have become commonplace in our culture and few of us make any effort to define them.

As an example of primitive people using stories or metaphor or concepts to explain things, the descendants of our own Anazazi peoples have developed their own lore and methods of teaching. Perhaps some become ingrained as literal history; but most do not any more than most Christians or Jews take many of the most beloved Bible stories as literal history. But both derive deep meaning and teachings from those stories.

From our historical Navajo lore and how they regarded the Anazazi who preceded them:

There is a large population of christians who are fundamentalists / Literalists who think their bible is an historical account going back to the creation myth. as humanity expands its knowledge of science the less people rely on ancient myths as fact, not so the fundys

And there is a large population of anti-religionists who think all religious are deluded, stupid, brain washed, and clueless and these anti-religionists reject any argument or evidence that would question that.

How is one group less wrong than the other?

I have never insulted a Christian on this board or in real life. I respect your rights to believe what you believe. I have been cavalier a few times but never degrading. On many occasions I've even defended you all against stupid attacks.
I don't consider my opinion an attack however.

Having said that I've had a few beers now and am subject to saying stupid shit to EVERYONE at this point so if I respond no more don't take it as a cop out or insult. I simply don't wish to piss off more people than I already have.

 

[HUGGY]

Yup.

If you knew the bible word for word, then you would know what it says about those who are led by false wisdom.

Of course it does. The bible is full of self serving statements. I reject all of it including the stupid threats.

 

[t_polkow]

I will submit that if things really did happen as the bible describes, then the bible and inherent beliefs spawned by it, are precisely what we should expect.

It is not rational to conclude that nothing happened except for some misinterpreted, natural events and a bunch of fabricating and exaggeration. The events described in the bible are entirely too detailed and intertwined and related to rationally conclude such a thing.

In other words... all rhetoric stripped away... surely something happened to spawn the bible, apart from a few random thunder claps and lightning strikes.

Perhaps, but can only part of The Bible be 'sacred'?

If every word isn't the living Word of God, can any of it be trusted?

Is it up to the Monkeys to determine which ancient words are 'inspired'?

The whole "word of god" thingy is suspect. Take Moses's tablets.... You would think an all knowing all doing god would come up with something that only a god could have created. Like titanium or stainless steel tablets ... one would think... The chiseled stone tablets are a bit hokey if ya axe me. Prolly something Mooses could have done by himself or brought along a stone cutter to do while they were taking notes about the commandments. I can see it now... "UUMMMmm...God...could you talk more slowly???"

Steel ? Bible god had trouble with Iron!!

Judges 1:19
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

 

[oldfart]

Your simplistic statement is that religion is simply a *crutch* for people to explain things they don't understand.

It's condescending, and simplistic. I don't believe in God because I don't understand the world. The implication is that people of faith are foolish, and fill in gaps of their understanding with fiction..and Christ and the disciples were straight up liars...and those who believed them were nothing better than cultists. In all, those who have faith are rubes who should know better.

I'd like to reply to your comment, but first I need to point out that I speak for myself and am not responsible for beliefs or comments others express. I believe that organized religions (as contrasted to systems of belief) are human institutions which can and should be examined sociologically. This inquiry has nothing to do with the truth value of the belief system advanced by a specific religion.

That religion is used to explain observations of the world that have not been explained with satisfaction is a simple fact. This is what I surmise was the gist of the OP. Such a statement is based in fact and should not offend anyone. The same can be said about "just-so" stories which all cultures have; we do not consider them "fiction" or "lies" but rather as socially useful myths, right up there with the elementary teacher who tells her class "The policeman is your friend!"

There is nothing in being a person of faith that intrinsically makes one foolish. The behavior a person exhibits is what makes them foolish or wise. A sign of wisdom is not imputing evil motive where none exists and not taking offense a factual statements just because you are oversensitive in your faith. Just sayin'

The OP isn't a "factual" statement. It's an opinion.

Just sayin.

Actually as the OP explained in a subsequent post, it WAS meant as a factual statement.

 

[koshergrl]

I don't care what it was MEANT as...intent does not create reality.... it ISN'T a factual statement. There is no way to verify it, no way to prove it.

It is a statement of belief. An opinion.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

I'd like to reply to your comment, but first I need to point out that I speak for myself and am not responsible for beliefs or comments others express. I believe that organized religions (as contrasted to systems of belief) are human institutions which can and should be examined sociologically. This inquiry has nothing to do with the truth value of the belief system advanced by a specific religion.

That religion is used to explain observations of the world that have not been explained with satisfaction is a simple fact. This is what I surmise was the gist of the OP. Such a statement is based in fact and should not offend anyone. The same can be said about "just-so" stories which all cultures have; we do not consider them "fiction" or "lies" but rather as socially useful myths, right up there with the elementary teacher who tells her class "The policeman is your friend!"

There is nothing in being a person of faith that intrinsically makes one foolish. The behavior a person exhibits is what makes them foolish or wise. A sign of wisdom is not imputing evil motive where none exists and not taking offense a factual statements just because you are oversensitive in your faith. Just sayin'

The OP isn't a "factual" statement. It's an opinion.

Just sayin.

Actually as the OP explained in a subsequent post, it WAS meant as a factual statement.

Nonsense. I wrote every post I know what the **** I ment. You're just trollin.

 

[oldfart]

I don't care what it was MEANT as...intent does not create reality.... it ISN'T a factual statement. There is no way to verify it, no way to prove it.

It is a statement of belief. An opinion.

Balderdash and poppycock. In the sense you are using the terms, there is no such thing as historical observation; everything is simply a matter of opinion. This is a sign of intellectual laziness and you should be ashamed to make such an argument. Such statements are subject to the same verification methods as any other historical generalizations, such as the ones you have made in dozens of posts. Or do you recant them all now as mere opinions?

 

[oldfart]

The OP isn't a "factual" statement. It's an opinion.

Just sayin.

Actually as the OP explained in a subsequent post, it WAS meant as a factual statement.

Nonsense. I wrote every post I know what the **** I ment. You're just trollin.

I stand corrected. I thought you made a cogent argument in the OP, but I am glad that you have corrected me. In the future I will be more careful and regard all of your posts as mere expressions of opinion.

 

[koshergrl]

Er..no, that's what you're saying, loon.

Grandpa didn't mean it as a statement of fact, he said so, so your argument is doubly retarded. In this case, two negatives a postiive do not make.

 

[koshergrl]

Ok now we all know oldfart's just a bullshitting troll, not to be taken seriously.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Actually as the OP explained in a subsequent post, it WAS meant as a factual statement.

Nonsense. I wrote every post I know what the **** I ment. You're just trollin.

I stand corrected. I thought you made a cogent argument in the OP, but I am glad that you have corrected me. In the future I will be more careful and regard all of your posts as mere expressions of opinion.

Isn't that what every post on this site is? I judge no one.

Matthew for instance... I think he has racist tendencies but is open to influence from reasonable arguments. He used to SLAM islam in his sig and I chatted with him for awhile. He eventually changed his sig. Good heart bad logic.

LoneLaugher: gives me shit all the time. We argue and ultimately when he posts an actual statement with content its "usually" reasonable.

Koshergrl is very abrupt in her posts but I know she means well.

Some are here to be dicks intentionally and some just want their voice to be heard. Bottom line it really doesn't matter unless you are s9 hung up on yourself that judging others is the only satisfaction you get out of life. ie shitting bull

 

[Unkotare]

Atheism is a crutch for those who wont try to understand things of the Spirit. Rather than put in the work to educate oneself, they choose to pretend that the spiritual side of life is non-existant.

20 years ago I could recite word for word most bible scripture. Im in no way ignorant of the word of god. Since then things in my life have changed and things have been learned. Blind faith is no longer sufficient. There were books removed from the bible and books not allowed in. All of which were written by man, man who is full of sin and corrupt according to the gospel. Yet you take it on face value.

Memorization is not faith. If that is all you ever really learned of it, it's no surprise you still can't understand it.

 

[oldfart]

I stand corrected. I thought you made a cogent argument in the OP, but I am glad that you have corrected me. In the future I will be more careful and regard all of your posts as mere expressions of opinion.

Isn't that what every post on this site is? I judge no one.

Sorry I interrupted your inside conversation. I'll not post on your threads in the future.

Koshergrl is very abrupt in her posts but I know she means well.

I'll take your word for it.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Atheism is a crutch for those who wont try to understand things of the Spirit. Rather than put in the work to educate oneself, they choose to pretend that the spiritual side of life is non-existant.

20 years ago I could recite word for word most bible scripture. Im in no way ignorant of the word of god. Since then things in my life have changed and things have been learned. Blind faith is no longer sufficient. There were books removed from the bible and books not allowed in. All of which were written by man, man who is full of sin and corrupt according to the gospel. Yet you take it on face value.

Memorization is not faith. If that is all you ever really learned of it, it's no surprise you still can't understand it.

Point taken but it was far more than that at the time.

 

[Unkotare]

20 years ago I could recite word for word most bible scripture. Im in no way ignorant of the word of god. Since then things in my life have changed and things have been learned. Blind faith is no longer sufficient. There were books removed from the bible and books not allowed in. All of which were written by man, man who is full of sin and corrupt according to the gospel. Yet you take it on face value.

Memorization is not faith. If that is all you ever really learned of it, it's no surprise you still can't understand it.

Point taken but it was far more than that at the time.

Well sure, there's the snacks, the booze, the snappy clothes...but there's even more!

 

[HUGGY]

Perhaps, but can only part of The Bible be 'sacred'?

If every word isn't the living Word of God, can any of it be trusted?

Is it up to the Monkeys to determine which ancient words are 'inspired'?

The whole "word of god" thingy is suspect. Take Moses's tablets.... You would think an all knowing all doing god would come up with something that only a god could have created. Like titanium or stainless steel tablets ... one would think... The chiseled stone tablets are a bit hokey if ya axe me. Prolly something Mooses could have done by himself or brought along a stone cutter to do while they were taking notes about the commandments. I can see it now... "UUMMMmm...God...could you talk more slowly???"

Steel ? Bible god had trouble with Iron!!

Judges 1:19
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

T just got banned?????

****!!!!!!!

WTF ....???????

 

[Avatar4321]

Atheism is a crutch for those who wont try to understand things of the Spirit. Rather than put in the work to educate oneself, they choose to pretend that the spiritual side of life is non-existant.

And which "spirit"? Allah spirit?, Mormon kolob spirit? the Hindu spirit Vishnu?


You ignorance is showing again!

christians "just believe" they need no facts or intelligence, they simply believe, so they don't need to read or understand the bible and its history.

Survey: Atheists, Agnostics Know More About Religion Than Religious : The Two-Way : NPR

That's why it's important to ask God and learn from Him. Then you dont have to ask such stupid questions.

 

[koshergrl]

He's a troll and a sock. You should be more careful who you hang out with, Huggs.