Reform the schools

[ScreamingEagle]

What federal funds? The Republicans who've controlled the purse strings for the past six years have underfunded it by over $8 billion...

You're just another whiny Dem who can't ever get enough money. More than enough money has been appropriated.

And, you still haven't addressed the self-fulfilling notion of "failing schools."

YOU brought up "self-fulfilling prophecy of failing schools". I was asking YOU what YOU meant by that.

Why must some arbitrary percentage of schools be in the failing category? So that Republicans can point to them and say "look they're failing!" This isn't about standards or education... it's about money. Republicans want teachers to have less of it unless someone is making a profit off of them. Take voucher schools here in Ohio. Underpaid teachers, big profits to Republican-backing businessmen and screwed students who have consistently scored lower on the Ohio proficiency tests than their public school peers.

The states can set their own standards. Is there any particular reason a certain percentage must fail? It's about Federal funds alright. A state either meets their set standards or they lose the funding. It's a form of accountability to the taxpaying public. What a fine idea.

What's the reason parents are using vouchers in Ohio to put their kids into substandard schools instead of what you say are better public schools?

 

[jasendorf]

YOU brought up "self-fulfilling prophecy of failing schools". I was asking YOU what YOU meant by that.

The law mandates that there be "failing schools." Like I said, if a state sent every one of their public school kids to Harvard and MIT... some of those kids would still have gone to "failing schools" because the states must have failing schools to "make better." It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. We have failing schools because the laws itself insists we have failing schools.

The states can set their own standards. Is there any particular reason a certain percentage must fail? It's about Federal funds alright. A state either meets their set standards or they lose the funding. It's a form of accountability to the taxpaying public. What a fine idea.

That's nothing more than a ruse for trying to bust the teachers unions and turn their positions into McJobs.

What's the reason parents are using vouchers in Ohio to put their kids into substandard schools instead of what you say are better public schools?

Flash, P.T. Barnum-style advertising, playing on religious tendencies, smoke, mirrors. Many of these schools won't even take the hard students. They simply skim off the kids whose parents care (and kids who don't have learning disabilities or behavior problems) leaving the public school system to deal with the difficult to educate students... and they STILL score lower than their public school contemporaries.

My niece goes to a voucher type school in California. They have a rule which more or less says, "we don't have behavior problems because it's one strike and you're out." What that means is, "we shove behavior problems back onto the public school system."

 

[ScreamingEagle]

That's nothing more than a ruse for trying to bust the teachers unions and turn their positions into McJobs.

You mean teachers will actually have to be accountable to their clients just as other professionals are?

Flash, P.T. Barnum-style advertising, playing on religious tendencies, smoke, mirrors. Many of these schools won't even take the hard students. They simply skim off the kids whose parents care (and kids who don't have learning disabilities or behavior problems) leaving the public school system to deal with the difficult to educate students... and they STILL score lower than their public school contemporaries.

My niece goes to a voucher type school in California. They have a rule which more or less says, "we don't have behavior problems because it's one strike and you're out." What that means is, "we shove behavior problems back onto the public school system."

Well, that's one way to get rid of disrupting behavior problems. I'd like to see the stats about these schools...are all scores lower and by how much? What exactly are their problems? Is finding good teachers a problem?

 

[Gem]

Screaming Eagle Wrote:

You mean teachers will actually have to be accountable to their clients just as other professionals are?

How exactly would you like teachers to be held accountable?

I understand your frustration at our educational system, I truly do. But as a teacher working my ass off everyday, I really have to take a deep breath and stay calm when I read some of your posts about the evil liberal teachers who want nothing more than to indoctrinate the children and collect a pay check while their union destroys education. (Yes, I'm aware that I am exaggerating and paraphrasing your statements).

"Other professionals" are given MANY things in order to do their jobs that teachers are not given. Teachers are asked to produce a uniformly successful product with constantly changing, varied "materials" to start with.

Should a car builder for Honda be expected to create perfectly drivable, safe Honda Civis when they are given 4 uneven tires, some Ford parts, some Mercedez parts, and about 4 months? They might be good enough to put together a pretty decent car...but it probably isn't going to be a Honda Civic.

I have a student who, with his mothers consent, has missed over 35 days of school this marking period. I have another student who (not through lack of trying on the part of his teachers - has been unable to memorize his multiplication tables). I have another student who is reading on a 5th grade level, I teach 8th. I have other students whos parents are involved and interested, sit with them to do their homework at night, and encourage their kids to try hard.

Yet all of them took the same state assessment tests that will determine if "I" did my job.

The student with the 5th grade reading level started the school year at a 3.8 reading level (thats 3rd grade, 8th month). I've helped her achieve almost 2 school years worth of improvement in less than one school year...but according to the state tests that "prove" whether I'm doing my job...I've failed because she isn't reading on an 8th grade level....

I can only tell you what I see in my school...and teachers - even the liberal ones - are working their butts off...the bad ones are the exceptions, not the rule. The normal teacher is dedicated and is working so so hard...but they are not given perfect children or a perfect system....so perfect results are a bit hard to produce.

 

[Annie]

Screaming Eagle Wrote:


How exactly would you like teachers to be held accountable?

I understand your frustration at our educational system, I truly do. But as a teacher working my ass off everyday, I really have to take a deep breath and stay calm when I read some of your posts about the evil liberal teachers who want nothing more than to indoctrinate the children and collect a pay check while their union destroys education. (Yes, I'm aware that I am exaggerating and paraphrasing your statements).

"Other professionals" are given MANY things in order to do their jobs that teachers are not given. Teachers are asked to produce a uniformly successful product with constantly changing, varied "materials" to start with.

Should a car builder for Honda be expected to create perfectly drivable, safe Honda Civis when they are given 4 uneven tires, some Ford parts, some Mercedez parts, and about 4 months? They might be good enough to put together a pretty decent car...but it probably isn't going to be a Honda Civic.

I have a student who, with his mothers consent, has missed over 35 days of school this marking period. I have another student who (not through lack of trying on the part of his teachers - has been unable to memorize his multiplication tables). I have another student who is reading on a 5th grade level, I teach 8th. I have other students whos parents are involved and interested, sit with them to do their homework at night, and encourage their kids to try hard.

Yet all of them took the same state assessment tests that will determine if "I" did my job.

The student with the 5th grade reading level started the school year at a 3.8 reading level (thats 3rd grade, 8th month). I've helped her achieve almost 2 school years worth of improvement in less than one school year...but according to the state tests that "prove" whether I'm doing my job...I've failed because she isn't reading on an 8th grade level....

I can only tell you what I see in my school...and teachers - even the liberal ones - are working their butts off...the bad ones are the exceptions, not the rule. The normal teacher is dedicated and is working so so hard...but they are not given perfect children or a perfect system....so perfect results are a bit hard to produce.

Gem, kudos. Personally I'm pretty tired of the whole argument. How many times have we heard that private schools 'skim'? It isn't so, except for those on ventilators and such.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Screaming Eagle Wrote:


How exactly would you like teachers to be held accountable?

I understand your frustration at our educational system, I truly do. But as a teacher working my ass off everyday, I really have to take a deep breath and stay calm when I read some of your posts about the evil liberal teachers who want nothing more than to indoctrinate the children and collect a pay check while their union destroys education. (Yes, I'm aware that I am exaggerating and paraphrasing your statements).

"Other professionals" are given MANY things in order to do their jobs that teachers are not given. Teachers are asked to produce a uniformly successful product with constantly changing, varied "materials" to start with.

Should a car builder for Honda be expected to create perfectly drivable, safe Honda Civis when they are given 4 uneven tires, some Ford parts, some Mercedez parts, and about 4 months? They might be good enough to put together a pretty decent car...but it probably isn't going to be a Honda Civic.

I have a student who, with his mothers consent, has missed over 35 days of school this marking period. I have another student who (not through lack of trying on the part of his teachers - has been unable to memorize his multiplication tables). I have another student who is reading on a 5th grade level, I teach 8th. I have other students whos parents are involved and interested, sit with them to do their homework at night, and encourage their kids to try hard.

Yet all of them took the same state assessment tests that will determine if "I" did my job.

The student with the 5th grade reading level started the school year at a 3.8 reading level (thats 3rd grade, 8th month). I've helped her achieve almost 2 school years worth of improvement in less than one school year...but according to the state tests that "prove" whether I'm doing my job...I've failed because she isn't reading on an 8th grade level....

I can only tell you what I see in my school...and teachers - even the liberal ones - are working their butts off...the bad ones are the exceptions, not the rule. The normal teacher is dedicated and is working so so hard...but they are not given perfect children or a perfect system....so perfect results are a bit hard to produce.

I hear your frustration. However, as obviously one of the better teachers you (& Kathianne too) should have no worries with accountability. If you know where students stand when they begin the school year, it should be no big problem to measure their achievements/failures during the year you teach them.

It's a fairly simple thing to measure the basic progress of a student grade by grade. Given a decent teacher, most kids are going to pass. Those that don't meet standards are the ones who need to be targeted by the system and weeded out for their failure and be given various options to deal with their problems - not just be glossed over and passed through the system without addressing the problems. Beyond a certain point, I don't believe that teachers should be responsible for making sure each and every student makes the grade. A teacher is too busy just teaching those who are making the grade. I agree that not all students are perfect and some will never even meet the minimum standards. Beyond a certain point, problem students should be dealt with by the administration and possibly be placed in alternative classes to focus on specific problems, hopefully rectifying the situation. And I think it's time for the educational system to realize that some students will never make the grade and should be offered a different achievement track such as a technical school, not a high school degree. We should not be passing kids through the system giving them a high school degree when they can't even read, write, and do math adequately.

 

[jasendorf]

I hear your frustration. However, as obviously one of the better teachers you (& Kathianne too) should have no worries with accountability. If you know where students stand when they begin the school year, it should be no big problem to measure their achievements/failures during the year you teach them.

Wrong. Do you really think there's enough time and money to critcally analyze every single individual teacher/student relationship and the achievement they've made? Nope. In addition, the federal law mandates that every student be evaluated using the same test, including those with mental disabilities. Teachers have been marked with a big red bullseye by Republicans for elimination of their "overpaid" status as union employees. And, to answer your earlier question... yes, finding good teachers who will subject themselves to the most unruly of kids is difficult.

It's a fairly simple thing to measure the basic progress of a student grade by grade. Given a decent teacher, most kids are going to pass. Those that don't meet standards are the ones who need to be targeted by the system and weeded out for their failure and be given various options to deal with their problems - not just be glossed over and passed through the system without addressing the problems.

Then take that up with the state legislatures who don't want to ruffle parents' feathers by taking away their "right" to pass their kids on from grade to grade. Teachers don't have that ability. Only parents do. You want a place to direct your anger? Point it at the parents who aren't parents and the legislature which feeds the lie that they are.

Beyond a certain point, I don't believe that teachers should be responsible for making sure each and every student makes the grade.

Too bad that couldn't have been in your original post. According to your original post, teachers have to sole responsibility for everything any child ever does 24/7 and it's their evil unions which are destroying them.

A teacher is too busy just teaching those who are making the grade. I agree that not all students are perfect and some will never even meet the minimum standards. Beyond a certain point, problem students should be dealt with by the administration and possibly be placed in alternative classes to focus on specific problems, hopefully rectifying the situation.

Not allowed. Why? Because parents don't want their kids "labelled" as slower or less capable than their peers even if they are. And, once again, it is the parents driving that... not the schools. You think public schools started mainstreaming slower kids because it was "easier"?

And I think it's time for the educational system to realize that some students will never make the grade and should be offered a different achievement track such as a technical school, not a high school degree. We should not be passing kids through the system giving them a high school degree when they can't even read, write, and do math adequately.

That would be great if the law allowed it. Once again, everything you've brought up is controlled NOT by the ***EVIL TEACHERS' UNIONS** but by state legislatures making laws that coincide with the unfunded federal mandates in NCLB.

But, stay in denial about who's hurting kids. It fits your ideology better and makes you sleep better at night I guess.

 

[Louie]

I love people who bash and put down teachers, it's a hoot. Those doing the bashing wouldn't survive one week in a classroom.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Wrong. Do you really think there's enough time and money to critcally analyze every single individual teacher/student relationship and the achievement they've made? Nope. In addition, the federal law mandates that every student be evaluated using the same test, including those with mental disabilities. Teachers have been marked with a big red bullseye by Republicans for elimination of their "overpaid" status as union employees. And, to answer your earlier question... yes, finding good teachers who will subject themselves to the most unruly of kids is difficult.

If a teacher can't evaluate the progress of the kids in his/her class then that teacher needs to be kicked out of the teaching profession. If a kid is learning his lessons he should pass the test. Students with mental disabilities should be addressed as separate problems and this matter is being addressed now through modifications. Exactly how have teachers been marked with a big red bullseye by Republicans?

Then take that up with the state legislatures who don't want to ruffle parents' feathers by taking away their "right" to pass their kids on from grade to grade. Teachers don't have that ability. Only parents do. You want a place to direct your anger? Point it at the parents who aren't parents and the legislature which feeds the lie that they are.

I agree that there are legislative problems. At least the NCLB law is helping both teachers and schools focus on some of the major educational problems. Although both parents and legislatures have input as well, schools cannot be left out of the mix when implementing standards. As I said before, after 2012 most of the kids who used to slide through the sytem will be out of the system. There should be no excuses after that.

Too bad that couldn't have been in your original post. According to your original post, teachers have to sole responsibility for everything any child ever does 24/7 and it's their evil unions which are destroying them.

Get a grip. I never said it was all black or white.

Not allowed. Why? Because parents don't want their kids "labelled" as slower or less capable than their peers even if they are. And, once again, it is the parents driving that... not the schools. You think public schools started mainstreaming slower kids because it was "easier"?

So when a kid adds two plus two and gets five and the teacher says that's OK Johnny, it's not because teachers are being PC according to liberal influences but rather because parents want their kids to pass through the system without learning basic math? If so, it must be the liberal parents…conservative ones would not want that. So I guess it's more a matter of who is controlling the schools - the libs or the cons.

That would be great if the law allowed it. Once again, everything you've brought up is controlled NOT by the ***EVIL TEACHERS' UNIONS** but by state legislatures making laws that coincide with the unfunded federal mandates in NCLB.

But, stay in denial about who's hurting kids. It fits your ideology better and makes you sleep better at night I guess.

Obviously you think the NCLB is the "great evil" in the school system, not the liberal unions which for years and years have dumbed-down our schools and infiltered them with political correctness and other garbage. I'd much rather see something in the schools that demonstrates that basic learning is actually taking place or not, which is what the NCLB is doing, imperfect though it is. It's a change in the right direction.

 

[jasendorf]

If a teacher can't evaluate the progress of the kids in his/her class then that teacher needs to be kicked out of the teaching profession. If a kid is learning his lessons he should pass the test. Students with mental disabilities should be addressed as separate problems and this matter is being addressed now through modifications. Exactly how have teachers been marked with a big red bullseye by Republicans?

You are truly clueless aren't you? Don't you realize that the two items above which you posted are completely disjointed from each other? Do you even get that? Teachers CAN (and do) evaluate the progress each student is making. Problem is, that progress can not always (perhaps not even a majority of the time) be translated into a single test delivered to every kid in the state. Take the example from above... you get a kid who comes into the eighth grade with a fifth grade reading level and the teacher moves them to a seventh grade reading level... then they fail the state proficiency test... the teacher's a failure. The question is, why bother? What motivation is there to even try and help the hardest to help kids if the task is almost impossible and any effort with the exception of bringing a kid up to the grade level is considered "failure"?

I think it was quite clear when you have Rod Paisley, President Bush's first Education Secretary, calling my wife and my mother "terrorists" (they both belong to the NEA)... it's pretty obvious what the Republican Party thinks of teachers. Republicans want cheap teachers. The only way they accomplish that is by breaking the union. To break the unions, they have to convince their ""loyal Bushies" that teachers are the problem.

I agree that there are legislative problems. At least the NCLB law is helping both teachers and schools focus on some of the major educational problems. Although both parents and legislatures have input as well, schools cannot be left out of the mix when implementing standards. As I said before, after 2012 most of the kids who used to slide through the sytem will be out of the system. There should be no excuses after that.

Teachers have never had excuses. They've always had suggestions which parents could either go with or ignore. More often than not, the failing students' parents choose to ignore them.

Get a grip. I never said it was all black or white.

Re-read what you've posted these past pages. You've made it quite clear. It's the unions and the lazy-assed teachers to you... end of story. You've completely and totally taken away any responsibility from parents and state legislatures.

So when a kid adds two plus two and gets five and the teacher says that's OK Johnny, it's not because teachers are being PC according to liberal influences but rather because parents want their kids to pass through the system without learning basic math?

Show me any teacher in the United States who has ever done that. That's complete and utter bullshit and you know it. That teacher usually spends an inordinate amout of time trying to explain to that kid why it's not four and then, after allotting far more time than they should to a single student calls the parent to ask them to aid them in their child's education and send home additional study and addition tables and sets up after school tutoring and then the child still doesn't get it so the teacher writes up an IEP for them, gets them during school one-on-one assistance and sends weekly progress reports home to mom and dad and pulls their hair out. Meanwhile the kid stays up all night playing Xbox and the parent forgets all about litttle Johnny's adding problem and flunks math. The teacher says, uh, you know what, little Johnny's not ready for the next grade and the parents say, "STUPID TEACHER!"

If so, it must be the liberal parents…conservative ones would not want that. So I guess it's more a matter of who is controlling the schools - the libs or the cons.

Obviously you think the NCLB is the "great evil" in the school system, not the liberal unions which for years and years have dumbed-down our schools and infiltered them with political correctness and other garbage. I'd much rather see something in the schools that demonstrates that basic learning is actually taking place or not, which is what the NCLB is doing, imperfect though it is. It's a change in the right direction.

The unions are the only thing that have kept the schools from becoming little more than a babysitting service... which is all way-too-many parents want. Until there's responsibility for the parents... it's a failing venture.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

You are truly clueless aren't you? Don't you realize that the two items above which you posted are completely disjointed from each other? Do you even get that? Teachers CAN (and do) evaluate the progress each student is making. Problem is, that progress can not always (perhaps not even a majority of the time) be translated into a single test delivered to every kid in the state. Take the example from above... you get a kid who comes into the eighth grade with a fifth grade reading level and the teacher moves them to a seventh grade reading level... then they fail the state proficiency test... the teacher's a failure. The question is, why bother? What motivation is there to even try and help the hardest to help kids if the task is almost impossible and any effort with the exception of bringing a kid up to the grade level is considered "failure"?

You are missing the point. With accountability properly in place there should never be a kid entering the 8th grade with a 5th grade reading level. That is one of the major problems the NCLB is attempting to stop. First, there needs to be recognition of a child's failure. Then it is up to the school to address the problem and not let things slide. When that happens the system is broke.

I think it was quite clear when you have Rod Paisley, President Bush's first Education Secretary, calling my wife and my mother "terrorists" (they both belong to the NEA)... it's pretty obvious what the Republican Party thinks of teachers. Republicans want cheap teachers. The only way they accomplish that is by breaking the union. To break the unions, they have to convince their ""loyal Bushies" that teachers are the problem.

That's exaggerating a bit, don't you think? But then I'm not surprised. Liberals typically focus on the small stuff and miss the overall big point - which is that the NEA obstructs improvements. Paige called the NEA a "terrorist organization" as he argued that the country's largest teachers union often acts at odds with the wishes of rank-and-file teachers regarding school standards and accountability. To quote Paige:

"It was an inappropriate choice of words to describe the obstructionist scare tactics the NEA's Washington lobbyists have employed against No Child Left Behind's historic education reforms.
"I also said, as I have repeatedly, that our nation's teachers, who have dedicated their lives to service in the classroom, are the real soldiers of democracy, whereas the NEA's high-priced Washington lobbyists have made no secret that they will fight against bringing real, rock-solid improvements in the way we educate all our children regardless of skin color, accent or where they live.
"But, as one who grew up on the receiving end of insensitive remarks, I should have chosen my words better."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/02/23/paige.terrorist.nea/

Teachers have never had excuses. They've always had suggestions which parents could either go with or ignore. More often than not, the failing students' parents choose to ignore them.

So you think schools should just let the kids slide and continue to graduate without knowing how to read and write?
Isn't it about time the schools start to fight back against the lazy parent syndrome, if that's the big problem? Seems to me the NCLB is a great step in that direction as it gives the schools solid evidence to discuss with the parents and get them to act or have their kid flunk out. Of course if the laws in your state don't allow flunking, you've got a problem.

Re-read what you've posted these past pages. You've made it quite clear. It's the unions and the lazy-assed teachers to you... end of story. You've completely and totally taken away any responsibility from parents and state legislatures.

Yes, the unions have allowed many lazy-assed teachers to sit on their butts and not teach the students what they need to learn. I have NOT taken away any responsibility from the parents and state legislatures by supporting the NCLB. In fact, this law actually helps target just exactly who IS responsible for the various failures whether they be the system, the teachers, the parents, or the students. The fact that there is such an uproar about it tells me how much an effect it is having. I know it is not perfect but I think it will do more good than harm.

Show me any teacher in the United States who has ever done that. That's complete and utter bullshit and you know it. That teacher usually spends an inordinate amout of time trying to explain to that kid why it's not four and then, after allotting far more time than they should to a single student calls the parent to ask them to aid them in their child's education and send home additional study and addition tables and sets up after school tutoring and then the child still doesn't get it so the teacher writes up an IEP for them, gets them during school one-on-one assistance and sends weekly progress reports home to mom and dad and pulls their hair out. Meanwhile the kid stays up all night playing Xbox and the parent forgets all about litttle Johnny's adding problem and flunks math. The teacher says, uh, you know what, little Johnny's not ready for the next grade and the parents say, "STUPID TEACHER!"

Once again you are blaming just the parents. And many of them do deserve the blame. However, many teachers also deserve some blame as well as the liberal system within which they learn their "teaching methods". Ever since the 60's teachers have been implementing new fangled methods, many of which rely solely on children being "creative" and "expressiing" themselves rather than learn actual facts and figures. Read this article which helps to explain how "therapy" is substituted for real learning. Of course not all teachers do this but enough of this "therapy" has permeated the system to have a negative impact on many students and their scholastic results..

The unions are the only thing that have kept the schools from becoming little more than a babysitting service... which is all way-too-many parents want. Until there's responsibility for the parents... it's a failing venture.

If the unions are so great, then why are our schools doing so poorly? And if the unions are so great, why haven't they figured out how to deal with irresponsible parents? Truth is, the unions are liberal and liberalism supports irresponsibility.

 

[jasendorf]

You are missing the point. With accountability properly in place there should never be a kid entering the 8th grade with a 5th grade reading level. That is one of the major problems the NCLB is attempting to stop. First, there needs to be recognition of a child's failure. Then it is up to the school to address the problem and not let things slide. When that happens the system is broke.

How long has NCLB been in effect? What eighth grader today didn't have to take fourth and sixth grade proficiencies? If NCLB is supposed to fix that... why is there a kid with a fifth grade reading level in the eighth grade? As for "tracking" students through the system... you have no clue about inner-city schools do you? I've tutored kindergardeners through my work in inner-city Columbus. What has always amazed me from year to year is how transient the students are. When I asked one of the teachers about it, she told me that the scenario is mostly like this: parents get a "one month free" place to rent... can't pay the following two months and then are thrown out whereupon they find a new place in some other school district.

That's exaggerating a bit, don't you think? But then I'm not surprised. Liberals typically focus on the small stuff and miss the overall big point - which is that the NEA obstructs improvements. Paige called the NEA a "terrorist organization" as he argued that the country's largest teachers union often acts at odds with the wishes of rank-and-file teachers regarding school standards and accountability. To quote Paige:

"It was an inappropriate choice of words to describe the obstructionist scare tactics the NEA's Washington lobbyists have employed against No Child Left Behind's historic education reforms.
"I also said, as I have repeatedly, that our nation's teachers, who have dedicated their lives to service in the classroom, are the real soldiers of democracy, whereas the NEA's high-priced Washington lobbyists have made no secret that they will fight against bringing real, rock-solid improvements in the way we educate all our children regardless of skin color, accent or where they live.
"But, as one who grew up on the receiving end of insensitive remarks, I should have chosen my words better."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/02/23/paige.terrorist.nea/

You'd think Rod would also know that when people make insensitive remarks that they are also expressing how they truly feel as opposed to the glossed over comments they usually make. He can hem and haw all he wants about who he "really meant" but I'm pretty sure I know who the members of "terrorist organizations" are and my wife and mother are both members. His effort to discredit the NEA and other teachers' unions shows his and the Republican Party's complete and utter disdain for them at its base level.

So you think schools should just let the kids slide and continue to graduate without knowing how to read and write?

I'm saying that the teachers and the administrations have no power one way or the other due to the legislation that controls them. Not that they won't be the ones judged though. My wife chose to stay home upon the birth of our son. She took a year unpaid leave per her union contract. The more she thought about it, the more she decided that she didn't want to go back to that environment. An environment where she is judged on the actions of so many others just isn't for her anymore. And, it isn't for many teachers. My wife has been teaching for seven years and she had the most seniority in her grade level. Think about that... teachers are so destroyed by this legislation that they would rather leave behind their dreams of educating student... leave behind their mandated Masters educations due to NCLB. I really think that's what the Republicans are after.

Isn't it about time the schools start to fight back against the lazy parent syndrome, if that's the big problem? Seems to me the NCLB is a great step in that direction as it gives the schools solid evidence to discuss with the parents and get them to act or have their kid flunk out. Of course if the laws in your state don't allow flunking, you've got a problem.

Have you listened to a word I've said? The parents don't give a rat's ass (to clarify, the ones doing the failing more often than not do not give a rat's ass) or they believe (due to the Republican mantra that's been fed to them by people like you and the original article writer) that it isn't their child who has the problem... it's the evil liberal teachers and their terrorist union which is the problem... not THEIR child!

Yes, the unions have allowed many lazy-assed teachers to sit on their butts and not teach the students what they need to learn. I have NOT taken away any responsibility from the parents and state legislatures by supporting the NCLB. In fact, this law actually helps target just exactly who IS responsible for the various failures whether they be the system, the teachers, the parents, or the students. The fact that there is such an uproar about it tells me how much an effect it is having. I know it is not perfect but I think it will do more good than harm.

Show me any one of your original 12 suggestions which addresses parent responsibility. Put up bro... put up. I think it's fairly simple... if a teacher has a majority of their students passing the proficiency, then it's obviously not the teacher. My wife has had years where 96% of her students passed the reading and writing proficiencies... in other years it has been as low as 84%. Was my wife 12% worse at teaching in those years? My guess is that she was teaching as she always has and got a load of dumber kids with parents who were less apt to prepare their children for school. (she wouldn't put it that way, but she's more classy than I am)

Once again you are blaming just the parents. And many of them do deserve the blame. However, many teachers also deserve some blame as well as the liberal system within which they learn their "teaching methods". Ever since the 60's teachers have been implementing new fangled methods, many of which rely solely on children being "creative" and "expressiing" themselves rather than learn actual facts and figures. Read this article which helps to explain how "therapy" is substituted for real learning. Of course not all teachers do this but enough of this "therapy" has permeated the system to have a negative impact on many students and their scholastic results.

I remember the second year my wife was teaching... she was grading 4th grade math papers one night and I was looking at them trying to figure out how the "lattice method" of multiplication worked. I quite honestly still don't get it, but it evidently works for a lot of kids so I'm told. So, here's the idea, you expose kids to a couple ways to multiply... the way I learned, the latice methos and whatever and hopefully all the kids find a method that works best for them. Now here's the catch. The state proficiency tests the students on their ability to use the methods! So, the good idea of trying to find a best way for each student to "get" multiplication turns into just another thing to test hence making the original good idea of helping each child learn to multiply null and void in favor of testing the method by which they employ to multiply. These are state tests devised by groups controlled by the legislature. They defy logic and twist and contort just to meet the "standards" of NCLB. It's crap.

If the unions are so great, then why are our schools doing so poorly? And if the unions are so great, why haven't they figured out how to deal with irresponsible parents? Truth is, the unions are liberal and liberalism supports irresponsibility.

Our students know more, have access to more information and are brighter and more capable than any preceding generation... bar none. Even with the barriers thrown in front of them by legislators and parents, teachers are still prevailing in making a generation brighter and more capable than the ones before. And, it is through their unions that they have a voice in how the government hamstrings them and that they are able to fight against people like you who want to turn them into nothing more than just another McEmployee who can babysit for some corporation at a profit.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

How long has NCLB been in effect? What eighth grader today didn't have to take fourth and sixth grade proficiencies? If NCLB is supposed to fix that... why is there a kid with a fifth grade reading level in the eighth grade? As for "tracking" students through the system... you have no clue about inner-city schools do you? I've tutored kindergardeners through my work in inner-city Columbus. What has always amazed me from year to year is how transient the students are. When I asked one of the teachers about it, she told me that the scenario is mostly like this: parents get a "one month free" place to rent... can't pay the following two months and then are thrown out whereupon they find a new place in some other school district.

The NCLB has been in effect for only 5 years. Ideally an eighth grader today would not have reading proficiencies because he would have been "caught" in the 4th grade and brought up to speed. However since basic reading skills are usually developed in first and second grades, perhaps he was already too far behind the eightball. The program is still new and certainly not perfect. New approaches need to be developed to help the failing students, starting with the 1st grade. As far as inner city schools go, if children are transient, with the NCLB and its overall standards a child should be held to similar standards no matter which school he attends. Seems to me that would actually help a student who moves a lot since he would be held to the same standards for each grade and so it would not matter where he lived.

You'd think Rod would also know that when people make insensitive remarks that they are also expressing how they truly feel as opposed to the glossed over comments they usually make. He can hem and haw all he wants about who he "really meant" but I'm pretty sure I know who the members of "terrorist organizations" are and my wife and mother are both members. His effort to discredit the NEA and other teachers' unions shows his and the Republican Party's complete and utter disdain for them at its base level.

You just can't cut the guy a simple break, can you? Obviously you are as biased as your wife and mother who are obviously unionists.

I'm saying that the teachers and the administrations have no power one way or the other due to the legislation that controls them. Not that they won't be the ones judged though. My wife chose to stay home upon the birth of our son. She took a year unpaid leave per her union contract. The more she thought about it, the more she decided that she didn't want to go back to that environment. An environment where she is judged on the actions of so many others just isn't for her anymore. And, it isn't for many teachers. My wife has been teaching for seven years and she had the most seniority in her grade level. Think about that... teachers are so destroyed by this legislation that they would rather leave behind their dreams of educating student... leave behind their mandated Masters educations due to NCLB. I really think that's what the Republicans are after.

Oh, those poor widdle teachers. They can't teach because the big bad legislature controls them. Get real. Your personal bias is becoming more and more apparent. Just exactly how was your wife "destroyed" by the NCLB legislation? Was she being blamed personally for the kids who did not make the grade even though the majority of kids in her class were doing OK?

Have you listened to a word I've said? The parents don't give a rat's ass (to clarify, the ones doing the failing more often than not do not give a rat's ass) or they believe (due to the Republican mantra that's been fed to them by people like you and the original article writer) that it isn't their child who has the problem... it's the evil liberal teachers and their terrorist union which is the problem... not THEIR child!

Yeah, I've been listening to your whining for some time now. Hey, if some parents don't give a rat's ass about their child and the kid is not doing his homework, the schools should make the kid stay after school where he'd do his homework so he doesn't wind up failing a grade. If the parents abdicate their responsibility, then I believe the schools should care enough to insist the kids be given the time and space for an extra hour or two after school where they can apply themselves as needed. If the parents still don't cooperate, the administration needs to seek other answers. I'm sure things would not get that far for most.

Show me any one of your original 12 suggestions which addresses parent responsibility. Put up bro... put up. I think it's fairly simple... if a teacher has a majority of their students passing the proficiency, then it's obviously not the teacher. My wife has had years where 96% of her students passed the reading and writing proficiencies... in other years it has been as low as 84%. Was my wife 12% worse at teaching in those years? My guess is that she was teaching as she always has and got a load of dumber kids with parents who were less apt to prepare their children for school. (she wouldn't put it that way, but she's more classy than I am)

Of course your wife is not 12% worse. I agree with you that if most of the kids are passing, the ones who are failing are not necessarily the fault of the teacher. They may be failing because they are not proficient at that grade level. This is the big challenge of the schools -- how to change it so almost all the kids pass….without dumbing down the schools….which is what has BEEN DONE under the union system. It's a matter of bringing up our expectations of our children starting from the very first grade. Since it's only been 5 years since the NCLB has been enacted, I wonder how your fifth graders are doing? I don't see this program as being implemented perfectly, especially since states vary in their methods, but I do agree with the basic premise of NCLB since it puts the focus on the children where the focus should be.

I remember the second year my wife was teaching... she was grading 4th grade math papers one night and I was looking at them trying to figure out how the "lattice method" of multiplication worked. I quite honestly still don't get it, but it evidently works for a lot of kids so I'm told. So, here's the idea, you expose kids to a couple ways to multiply... the way I learned, the latice methos and whatever and hopefully all the kids find a method that works best for them. Now here's the catch. The state proficiency tests the students on their ability to use the methods! So, the good idea of trying to find a best way for each student to "get" multiplication turns into just another thing to test hence making the original good idea of helping each child learn to multiply null and void in favor of testing the method by which they employ to multiply. These are state tests devised by groups controlled by the legislature. They defy logic and twist and contort just to meet the "standards" of NCLB. It's crap.

I didn't know that the students were tested on their ability to use certain methods that were being taught. I guess that depends on the state one is in since it is the state that devises the proficiency tests to be passed. Seems to me that in math it should be the right answer that counts, not how one got to the answer. But that goes back to the whole "teaching methods" crap that the liberals have been instituting in a myriad of ways for many years now and who are obviously putting into the tests as well. That's why you get the tests that "defy logic and twist and contort". I agree, total crap.

Our students know more, have access to more information and are brighter and more capable than any preceding generation... bar none. Even with the barriers thrown in front of them by legislators and parents, teachers are still prevailing in making a generation brighter and more capable than the ones before. And, it is through their unions that they have a voice in how the government hamstrings them and that they are able to fight against people like you who want to turn them into nothing more than just another McEmployee who can babysit for some corporation at a profit.

Well, if the students know more and have access to more information, then how come they've been graduating without knowing how to read and write and do 'rithmatic? It's because the unions have NOT done that much for the students. Students do not head the list of their priorities. Their focus has been more on political matters and teacher wages. It's time the kids come first.

If that means teachers become "MacTeachers" fine. If you think teachers do nothing more important than slinging burgers and babysitting, that is your perogative and viewpoint. Maybe some teachers would fit that description to a certain extent, and should become teaching assistants. I believe that giving more power to the free market will result in demanding more of the truly professional teachers (and administrators) and would result in a much better education of our children.

 

[jasendorf]

The NCLB has been in effect for only 5 years. Ideally an eighth grader today would not have reading proficiencies because he would have been "caught" in the 4th grade and brought up to speed. However since basic reading skills are usually developed in first and second grades, perhaps he was already too far behind the eightball. The program is still new and certainly not perfect. New approaches need to be developed to help the failing students, starting with the 1st grade. As far as inner city schools go, if children are transient, with the NCLB and its overall standards a child should be held to similar standards no matter which school he attends. Seems to me that would actually help a student who moves a lot since he would be held to the same standards for each grade and so it would not matter where he lived.

But I thought the idea was that if he was too far behind he should have been caught by the fourth or sixth grade proficiency tests. Evidently, NCLB failed.

You just can't cut the guy a simple break, can you? Obviously you are as biased as your wife and mother who are obviously unionists.

If I called your family members terrorists would you cut me a break? If so, I'd say you're a puss. Give him a break? The guy can rot in hell as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, those poor widdle teachers. They can't teach because the big bad legislature controls them. Get real. Your personal bias is becoming more and more apparent. Just exactly how was your wife "destroyed" by the NCLB legislation? Was she being blamed personally for the kids who did not make the grade even though the majority of kids in her class were doing OK?

Who else do you think these kids' parents blame? You think they look at themselves or their kids to see why they failed? Nope.

Yeah, I've been listening to your whining for some time now. Hey, if some parents don't give a rat's ass about their child and the kid is not doing his homework, the schools should make the kid stay after school where he'd do his homework so he doesn't wind up failing a grade. If the parents abdicate their responsibility, then I believe the schools should care enough to insist the kids be given the time and space for an extra hour or two after school where they can apply themselves as needed. If the parents still don't cooperate, the administration needs to seek other answers. I'm sure things would not get that far for most.

Once again... you want the teachers and administrations to do what the law disallows them from doing. When will you get that through your thick skull? Are you actually advocating that teachers and administrators break the law to fit your idea of what they should be doing? Teachers have no way of forcing kids to stay after school to study. None.

Of course your wife is not 12% worse. I agree with you that if most of the kids are passing, the ones who are failing are not necessarily the fault of the teacher. They may be failing because they are not proficient at that grade level. This is the big challenge of the schools -- how to change it so almost all the kids pass….without dumbing down the schools….which is what has BEEN DONE under the union system. It's a matter of bringing up our expectations of our children starting from the very first grade. Since it's only been 5 years since the NCLB has been enacted, I wonder how your fifth graders are doing? I don't see this program as being implemented perfectly, especially since states vary in their methods, but I do agree with the basic premise of NCLB since it puts the focus on the children where the focus should be.

Wonder how they're doing? No better than before. Why? Because none of the Republican mandated programs have included parent responsibility.

I didn't know that the students were tested on their ability to use certain methods that were being taught. I guess that depends on the state one is in since it is the state that devises the proficiency tests to be passed. Seems to me that in math it should be the right answer that counts, not how one got to the answer. But that goes back to the whole "teaching methods" crap that the liberals have been instituting in a myriad of ways for many years now and who are obviously putting into the tests as well. That's why you get the tests that "defy logic and twist and contort". I agree, total crap.

That's right... first you insist that teachers bend over backwards to find ways for more kids to learn more information... to tailor their teaching to the kids... to be creative and inspirational and motivational... so they come up with those ways... then you cry that they've come up with ways for more kids to learn more information. You're a buffoon.

Well, if the students know more and have access to more information, then how come they've been graduating without knowing how to read and write and do 'rithmatic? It's because the unions have NOT done that much for the students. Students do not head the list of their priorities. Their focus has been more on political matters and teacher wages. It's time the kids come first.

Who are "they"? Bring me these kids who can't read and write and do arithmetic... then show me their parents. You said, no more than a couple paragraphs above that "I agree with you that if most of the kids are passing, the ones who are failing are not necessarily the fault of the teacher." So, show me that "most" of these graduates can't read and write and do arithmetic. (Should I note the irony that while you were crying that kids can't write you spelled 'rithmetic with an 'a'?)

If that means teachers become "MacTeachers" fine.

We know that's your desire. You didn't need to expound upon it. We know what you want to do with teachers, then nurses, then firefighters, then cops... we know what your plan is.

If you think teachers do nothing more important than slinging burgers and babysitting, that is your perogative and viewpoint. Maybe some teachers would fit that description to a certain extent, and should become teaching assistants. I believe that giving more power to the free market will result in demanding more of the truly professional teachers (and administrators) and would result in a much better education of our children.

All the free market will do is force schools to find ways to force bad students to other schools while hording good students. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Annie]

Why not weigh in here, it's Friday and all that I'm going to do later is lesson plans.

Both of you have points, Jasen and Screaming. Bottom line, NCLB is well intentioned, but needs refining, bad. Some of the issues are starting to be addressed, but it's like pulling teeth.

#1 problem, "No child". Because of all sorts of 'title #'s', the schools have Down's children, basically comatosed children, kid's about to die on ventilators, etc. Those 'scores' are counted and schools held to 'failure' because of them. Seriously for the most part, these are more 'wealthy' schools, where the parents know the school 'responsibilites'. Poor districts for the most part have parents that figure their dying child should not be in school and do not send them there.

On the other hand, poor districts have overwhelming numbers of children who are hungry, neglected, just trying to survive; without adequate parental supervision. How are the schools supposed to deal with those issues? They feed them, but cannot take away the anxiety that goes with survival.

Then there are the schools that are not at an extreme, one would think all would be well. Not so, with NCLB. See, if a school meets the requirements, but the minorities within it do not, even if only 1% of total enrollment, the school is on warning. Thus, you have very successful school, on a 'watch list', driving down property values.

 

[RightOnRed]

Why not weigh in here, it's Friday and all that I'm going to do later is lesson plans.

Both of you have points, Jasen and Screaming. Bottom line, NCLB is well intentioned, but needs refining, bad. Some of the issues are starting to be addressed, but it's like pulling teeth.

#1 problem, "No child". Because of all sorts of 'title #'s', the schools have Down's children, basically comatosed children, kid's about to die on ventilators, etc. Those 'scores' are counted and schools held to 'failure' because of them. Seriously for the most part, these are more 'wealthy' schools, where the parents know the school 'responsibilites'. Poor districts for the most part have parents that figure their dying child should not be in school and do not send them there.

On the other hand, poor districts have overwhelming numbers of children who are hungry, neglected, just trying to survive; without adequate parental supervision. How are the schools supposed to deal with those issues? They feed them, but cannot take away the anxiety that goes with survival.

Then there are the schools that are not at an extreme, one would think all would be well. Not so, with NCLB. See, if a school meets the requirements, but the minorities within it do not, even if only 1% of total enrollment, the school is on warning. Thus, you have very successful school, on a 'watch list', driving down property values.

Bottom line. NCLB is assinine on the face of it. It's merely an unfunded deluded goal posturing as a plan.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Bottom line. NCLB is assinine on the face of it. It's merely an unfunded deluded goal posturing as a plan.

NCLB: Fix the flaws
Saturday, April 14, 2007

Ohio students already took plenty of standardized tests even before President Bush's landmark education reform, No Child Left Behind.

But the 2002 measure certainly accelerated the state's efforts to make districts accountable for results - and to make it harder for schools to hide their trouble spots.

No wonder, then, that some leaders here and nationwide want to strip NCLB of many of its powers as the law comes up for congressional reauthorization this year. Some complain that the law requires too much paperwork. Others insist the measure amounts to federalization of local education. And the largest groups rail that Congress failed to provide the dollars necessary to meet the law's lofty aims. Will the collective weight of these protests bury the nation's most ambitious education program in decades?

The short answer is "no."

Look at the law's chief advocates: George W. Bush and Edward Kennedy. The president and Democratic senator don't agree on much, but this measure still has their full support. True, Kennedy would like to see lots more money behind it, and Bush would favor giving parents greater choices beyond their neighborhood public schools. Even so, both are quick to acknowledge the substantial academic progress reaped over the past five years - and the desperate need to accelerate those gains to remain globally competitive.

Often overlooked amidst the complaints are positive changes many now take for granted. Thanks to NCLB, parents now have more information about how their schools serve students. Districts that focus only on the smartest students and neglect the rest now are sanctioned. Those that focus only on one race of students, or ignore those in poverty, also lose.

The law isn't perfect. Complaints that non-English-speaking students face tests too soon deserve greater debate. Worries that largely successful schools can face severe sanctions for narrow failings also merit attention. But these issues involve adjustments, not a complete overhaul.

Congress should address NCLB's shortcomings but keep its essence intact. On balance, the law has raised the bar for achievement and accountability. The progress it has spurred must continue.

http://www.cleveland.com/politics/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/opinion/1176540040101781.xml&coll=2

 

[Annie]

NCLB: Fix the flaws
Saturday, April 14, 2007

Ohio students already took plenty of standardized tests even before President Bush's landmark education reform, No Child Left Behind.

But the 2002 measure certainly accelerated the state's efforts to make districts accountable for results - and to make it harder for schools to hide their trouble spots.

No wonder, then, that some leaders here and nationwide want to strip NCLB of many of its powers as the law comes up for congressional reauthorization this year. Some complain that the law requires too much paperwork. Others insist the measure amounts to federalization of local education. And the largest groups rail that Congress failed to provide the dollars necessary to meet the law's lofty aims. Will the collective weight of these protests bury the nation's most ambitious education program in decades?

The short answer is "no."

Look at the law's chief advocates: George W. Bush and Edward Kennedy. The president and Democratic senator don't agree on much, but this measure still has their full support. True, Kennedy would like to see lots more money behind it, and Bush would favor giving parents greater choices beyond their neighborhood public schools. Even so, both are quick to acknowledge the substantial academic progress reaped over the past five years - and the desperate need to accelerate those gains to remain globally competitive.

Often overlooked amidst the complaints are positive changes many now take for granted. Thanks to NCLB, parents now have more information about how their schools serve students. Districts that focus only on the smartest students and neglect the rest now are sanctioned. Those that focus only on one race of students, or ignore those in poverty, also lose.

The law isn't perfect. Complaints that non-English-speaking students face tests too soon deserve greater debate. Worries that largely successful schools can face severe sanctions for narrow failings also merit attention. But these issues involve adjustments, not a complete overhaul.

Congress should address NCLB's shortcomings but keep its essence intact. On balance, the law has raised the bar for achievement and accountability. The progress it has spurred must continue.

http://www.cleveland.com/politics/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/opinion/1176540040101781.xml&coll=2

If it is revisited to make it measure students that are not 'learning disabled', separating out those that are, that would be a start. Next, removing the bias regarding 'minorities', penalizing schools for under performance of these groups, when it's impossible to measure if the problems come from school or home.


Then funding those schools, which would be far fewer if the biased areas were removed, that truly need help.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

If it is revisited to make it measure students that are not 'learning disabled', separating out those that are, that would be a start. Next, removing the bias regarding 'minorities', penalizing schools for under performance of these groups, when it's impossible to measure if the problems come from school or home.

Then funding those schools, which would be far fewer if the biased areas were removed, that truly need help.

I believe they've recently addressed the disabled student issue.

Education Act to be More Lenient for Disabled Students
By Monisha Bansal
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
April 05, 2007

(CNSNews.com) - The Department of Education rolled out new changes to the No Child Left Behind (NCLB) Act Wednesday to "provide states and schools with greater flexibility in assessing students with disabilities.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=/Politics/archive/200704/POL20070405a.html
http://post-journal.com/articles.asp?articleID=14471

 

[Annie]

I believe they've recently addressed the disabled student issue.

'more lenient' doesn't address the problem.

One must remember that 'all children' are entitled to 'an education'. Seriously, it doesn't matter if they are unable to communicate in any form, are basically comatosed or braindead. Their 'scores' count...