Rain God is offensive to Christian

[AmyNation]

The person who brought suit objected to the spiritual nature of the license plate that he would be forced to use unless he shelled out more money for a specialty plate.

But it does not exhibit spiritual-ness (is that even a word?). It is a NA shooting an arrow. Looking at it for the first time, one does not see rain god or anything else. At least, I didn't.

The pic of the NA is supposedly of a statue. I will see if I can find out who the artist is that made the original that Oklahoma chose to put on a plate.

The link to the artist and the statue is in your op article.

 

[Gracie]

Sorry...didn't see it. I posted that while I was still in sleep mode, lol.

I did find this, though.

a young Apache warrior shooting an arrow skyward depicted in Allen Houser’s “Sacred Rain Arrow” statue

Methodist Minister Challenges License Plate As Affront To Christian Beliefs « CBS Houston

 

[AmyNation]

The statue is called "Sacred rain arrow"

". This monumental piece depicts a young Apache warrior shooting his arrow towards heaven with the hope of carrying a prayer for rain to the Spirit World."

 

[hoosier88]

...

You missed the point and so did I at first. The Ok. license plate in question is not "offered". It's the plate you get for the basic fee. The person who brought suit objected to the spiritual nature of the license plate that he would be forced to use unless he shelled out more money for a specialty plate. The concept is interesting because the ACLU apparently hasn't noticed a gigantic breach of the modern concept of "separation of church/state". The theory is that Native American spirituality is less offensive than the 2,000 years of Christian spirituality.

(My bold)

OK, we'll play along. What precisely is the spiritual nature of the Native People's image on the standard OK license plate? What does this nature say about the driver? Is he reform? Orthodox? Full-immersion, or aspersion? Grape juice or actual wine? Both specie? Either one, alternating? Is there an order of mass or services? Is there a sacred reading @ all? Who officiates @ weddings? A shaman? A witch-doctor? A Voodoo priest?

From the Western point of view, most Native People's religion hardly exists - which was one of the excuses for stealing their land, water, women, cattle & on & on. No government, no capitol building, no legislature, no executive, no judiciary. & now, here in the blessed 21st century CE, the federal courts will seriously entertain the possibility of removing one of the few vestiges of some state-wide respect for Native Peoples' cultures?

Without extensive study & searching on the Internet, I doubt that anyone here can answer even the most basic questions about the image on the license plate & what religious rite he's supposed to be carrying out. Who is he supplicating? What is the name of the rain god? What tradition does that god belong to? What language does He speak? Are there sacrifices involved?

It's amazing that a minister, of all people, wants to pour salt in the wounds of history. Perhaps he has a sponge full of gall to hold up to the warrior's lips? Mayhap he'll pierce the warrior's side, & let the bile run from his side?

& your count of Christianity's reach is considerably off. As it's now Judeo-Christianity, the reach of Christianity is now cumulative - presumably one adds the historical depths of Judaism to Christianity, so the number is likelier 3,000 years. An estimate, I would need to see how far back Judaism extends for a precise figure.

 

[AmyNation]

I grant that the statue is not a commonly known form of prayer. However, would everyone who approves of the statue still approve it if it was a statue of a man bent in the traditional form for Islamic prayer? Or on his knees hands together?

 

[Granny]

The guy is still a moron. If the plate in question is the standard plate for Oklahoma, then everybody who wants to buy a "personalized plate" such as "US Army," "Vietnam Vet," "MYOHMY," "GO4ATD," "In God We Trust," ALL have to pay extra for a plate that is, for lack of a better phrase, a special order plate that takes extra time to stamp and it should cost more. The "In God We Trust" plate is not the ONLY plate that has an extra charge. Common sense ought to tell somebody that.

I have a standard TN plate on my vehicle. If I want a specialty or personalized plate, such as National Park plate with a black bear I'll have to pay extra for it. This guy is pissing over what is probably $5 to $10 extra. He's a moron. And this is the kind of frivolous law suit that keeps the court's dockets filled up to the detriment of cases that really do need to be heard.

 

[hoosier88]

I grant that the statue is not a commonly known form of prayer. However, would everyone who approves of the statue still approve it if it was a statue of a man bent in the traditional form for Islamic prayer? Or on his knees hands together?

(My bold)

The image on the basic OK license plate is based on the statue. The deceased artist was not a shaman, & the quotes from people who knew him said that he never intended to reference a Native American god.

The problem with classifying the image on the OK license plate is that it's perhaps a reference to spirituality, specific content unknown. There is no rite, no body of belief that readily comes to mind with this reference to Native People spirituality.

Islam & Christianity, on the other hand, have lots of specific beliefs attached to them, & most people in the US are @ least somewhat familiar with some variety of Christianity. Islam is common in larger cities.

So the real problem for the judges on whether this image on the license plate is an establishment of religion - is that there's no specific content being referred to. Nothing comes to mind as I look @ the image. I know bits of Aztec, Mayan & Inca belief & gods - but I doubt that transfers to the Chiricahua in the US SW. I think the case will be dismissed for lack of specificity - no one can point to a cohesive religion that's being endorsed here.

& the state of OK will likely say the same thing.

 

[Flopper]

It appears to me that Oklahoma, like almost every other state, offers a variety of license plates to its residents. Someone who wants to make an issue out of the plate in question has got to be a moron - or he has someone else ghostwriting his sermons while he sits and finds fault. If he's a minister, then he's in the wrong profession.

oklahoma license plates - Bing Images

You can sue for almost any reason. There are thousands of stupid lawsuits filed every year and most of them go nowhere. Many of them are just bids for public attention. Nothing catches the media's attention better than a stupid lawsuit such as "a lawsuit was filed today in ...... court claiming that the US government violated the constitutional rights of I Pee Freely when he was arrested for peeing on the Washington Monument in protest of......" The media loves this crap. Don't waste your time pursuing it.

 

[whitehall]

...

You missed the point and so did I at first. The Ok. license plate in question is not "offered". It's the plate you get for the basic fee. The person who brought suit objected to the spiritual nature of the license plate that he would be forced to use unless he shelled out more money for a specialty plate. The concept is interesting because the ACLU apparently hasn't noticed a gigantic breach of the modern concept of "separation of church/state". The theory is that Native American spirituality is less offensive than the 2,000 years of Christian spirituality.

(My bold)

OK, we'll play along. What precisely is the spiritual nature of the Native People's image on the standard OK license plate? What does this nature say about the driver? Is he reform? Orthodox? Full-immersion, or aspersion? Grape juice or actual wine? Both specie? Either one, alternating? Is there an order of mass or services? Is there a sacred reading @ all? Who officiates @ weddings? A shaman? A witch-doctor? A Voodoo priest?

From the Western point of view, most Native People's religion hardly exists - which was one of the excuses for stealing their land, water, women, cattle & on & on. No government, no capitol building, no legislature, no executive, no judiciary. & now, here in the blessed 21st century CE, the federal courts will seriously entertain the possibility of removing one of the few vestiges of some state-wide respect for Native Peoples' cultures?

Without extensive study & searching on the Internet, I doubt that anyone here can answer even the most basic questions about the image on the license plate & what religious rite he's supposed to be carrying out. Who is he supplicating? What is the name of the rain god? What tradition does that god belong to? What language does He speak? Are there sacrifices involved?

It's amazing that a minister, of all people, wants to pour salt in the wounds of history. Perhaps he has a sponge full of gall to hold up to the warrior's lips? Mayhap he'll pierce the warrior's side, & let the bile run from his side?

& your count of Christianity's reach is considerably off. As it's now Judeo-Christianity, the reach of Christianity is now cumulative - presumably one adds the historical depths of Judaism to Christianity, so the number is likelier 3,000 years. An estimate, I would need to see how far back Judaism extends for a precise figure.

The image is based on a well known sculpture that is identified as a Native American spirit ritual. It's no secret and Oklahomans are proud of it as they should be. The minister seems to be offended that he has no choice but to display a license plate that he finds offensive. It's life in the modern world, don't make a big deal about it unless you want to argue about Christian symbols.

 

[Noomi]

Those saying he should get another plate at no cost would probably have a different opinion if an atheist complained.

 

[Borillar]

It appears to me that Oklahoma, like almost every other state, offers a variety of license plates to its residents. Someone who wants to make an issue out of the plate in question has got to be a moron - or he has someone else ghostwriting his sermons while he sits and finds fault. If he's a minister, then he's in the wrong profession.

oklahoma license plates - Bing Images

You missed the point and so did I at first. The Ok. license plate in question is not "offered". It's the plate you get for the basic fee. The person who brought suit objected to the spiritual nature of the license plate that he would be forced to use unless he shelled out more money for a specialty plate. The concept is interesting because the ACLU apparently hasn't noticed a gigantic breach of the modern concept of "separation of church/state". The theory is that Native American spirituality is less offensive than the 2,000 years of Christian spirituality.

It's an image of a sculpture of a guy shooting a bow and arrow. Archery isn't a religion, at least for most people. This guy is a nutjob. Won't spend a few bucks for a religious themed specialty license plate, but will spend lots of money with lawyers and lawsuits and waste taxpayers money and time with frivolous BS. Hope he gets laughed out of court.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Oklahoma man allowed to sue state over native american rain god on license plate - Autoblog

I need to stop reading the news every morning with my tea. I ruins my day. Like this asshole did. And the asshole judge that is allowing this to proceed further.

Why would you object to due process and judicial review?

Did you read the 10th Circuit’s ruling concerning compelled speech?

If not how can you be critical of the court’s decision?

 

[bodecea]

What a beautiful plate. This litigation is brought by someone who really doesn't understand Christ or his teaching.

I find this awesome. But then I'm a different sort of Christian.

Who can call this vile in the name of our Lord? Only a fool.

Its not a christian god.

If non-christians have to "respect" christians gods, why don't christians have to show the same respect to the gods of other religions?

Well, we see non-Christians or agnostics suing to remove Christian beliefs from the public sight all the time, why doesn't that offend you?

The guy can sue all he want. He has the right. Doesn't offend me at all.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Oklahoma man allowed to sue state over native american rain god on license plate - Autoblog

I need to stop reading the news every morning with my tea. I ruins my day. Like this asshole did. And the asshole judge that is allowing this to proceed further.

What part of it bothers you?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I disagree, hon. The statue is not of a god. It IS the states license plate choice and if he doesn't like it, driving is not a right. It is a privilege. If he doesn't like it, then he can pay to have a different one.
I don't like flying coach either, but can't afford 1st class with bigger seats and leg room. Yet, that is the airline I chose...or the only one available. It is not my right to fly 1st class but I want it bad enough..then I gotta pay for it.

I know...strawman, but I function better with understanding when using them, lol.

This is what you get when you draw an indelible line around the concept that states cannot promote religion. This is, essentially, a slam dunk case for the guy under current law. The sensible thing to do is allow states to have religious symbols in public as long as they are not actually trying to make people join that religion.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I can't find the original art piece on bing or google. Maybe I am not using the correct search words. But yes...I think it a beautiful piece and a beautiful choice.

I'm a different sort of Christian

Lol. Me too.
I am a pagan christian with a dash of pantheism. Hows that for a oxymorons?

Try Allan Hauser.

https://www.google.com/search?q=all...wL8KbygG8wIGIAw&ved=0CDYQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=713

 

[Esmeralda]

Maybe a better example would be a famous statue of a woman kneeling praying to Christ. Would that be ok?

But no one, native Americans, nowadays worships a rain god. It is in the past. It is not anyone's religion. It is history, not someone else's religion. To say this is someoen else's god would be to say that if we had Zeus on a license plate, it would be another religion. No one worships the Greek gods anymore; it is part of history and no longer relevant to modern times.

This guy is making an issue out of nothing. There is no conflict between something that is no longer relevant and a current day religion.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

What a beautiful plate. This litigation is brought by someone who really doesn't understand Christ or his teaching.

I find this awesome. But then I'm a different sort of Christian.

Who can call this vile in the name of our Lord? Only a fool.

Its not a christian god.

If non-christians have to "respect" christians gods, why don't christians have to show the same respect to the gods of other religions?

What?

 

[Esmeralda]

There are a variety of special license plates available in Oklahoma including a "In God We Trust" plate. If this guy is offended by the Native American shooting an arrow, there are other options available.

He knows....he just doesn't want to have to pay to get the other one. Hence, the lawsuit.

Uh huh.....and how much is the lawsuit costing him??? More than 18 bucks I'll bet.

 

[bodecea]

The statue is called "Sacred rain arrow"

". This monumental piece depicts a young Apache warrior shooting his arrow towards heaven with the hope of carrying a prayer for rain to the Spirit World."

So...interestingly enough...this is NOT a picture of a god at all.