Racism in Education - could have been in either forum...

[Decus]

There are plenty of vocational high schools in the US as well.

What is the curriculum? I haven't found one, except for the academic and vocational split studies typical of many US High Schools. Nothing that focuses mostly on vocational studies for High School aged students (16 to 18 years of age).

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[Unkotare]

What is the curriculum? I haven't found one, except for the academic and vocational split studies typical of many US High Schools. Nothing that focuses mostly on vocational studies for High School aged students (16 to 18 years of age).

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Much like what was described about European vocational schools.

 

[Decus]

Much like what was described about European vocational schools.

Care to point me to a link?

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[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Students having the option to take vocational classes is not what I would call "immersive".

Germany, Finland and other European countries tend provide a more vocationally focused approach for High School students wanting to acquire professional skills. Germany for instance has mobilized industry to provide apprenticeships and the vocational curriculum is designed in cooperation with the business community.

Finland has gone even further. Students are required to complete the first 9 years of general studies. Starting in the 10th grade (about 16 years of age) students can opt for what is called an "upper secondary vocational qualification".

Vocational schools in Finland prepare an individual curriculum for each student after review of the student's needs. The programs focus on vocational studies and incorporate work-based learning and apprenticeships. The primary focus of each program is to provide students with the competence necessary to work in their chosen field.

To complete an upper secondary vocational qualification students need to complete 180 competence points (one year of study is typically 60 competence points). Academic subjects are inserted into the "common units" but are a minority of each program's composition. Here is a breakdown of an upper secondary vocational qualification:

180 Competence points.

"The scope of common units in vocational upper secondary qualifications is 35 competence points out of 180."

"Vocational units

• Basic and field specific study unit(s) (compulsory)
• Specialised study units (partly optional)
• Other optional units (decided by VET provider)
• Work-based learning is included"

"Common units

• Communication and interaction competence
• Mathematics and science competence
• Citizenship and working life competence"

It is a program of study for High School students which is focused on vocational education and what I would call much more immersive.

Key figures on vocational education and training in Finland

The mission of vocational education and training in Finland is to provide high-quality and relevant education and training for all learners, be they young school leavers or adults. Continuous efforts are made to raise national standards of vocational competence, to foster the skills required in...

www.oph.fi

Sorry but the details are in a pdf - I couldn't find an html version.

Thank you for proving you have no idea what you are talking about!

You wouldn't call that "immersive" shows you do not understand the program or the meaning of the term immersive.

In Germany, students are tested to determine their academic path in their equivalent of high school. I would assume Finland does the same. In this country, the students are allowed the freedom to choose.
Just like ROTC is not required to pursue a military career, that doesn't prevent others from opting out. My son quit ROTC after one semester and pursued a vocational path in metalworking. Little did he know, he would enlist during his senior year and serve 8 years in the Army as an infantryman.

I went to a teacher's convention where a Colorado school built mobile homes on the school site and then sold them. Profits were used to fund Habitat for Humanity or similar charities. The structure of the home was built by the carpentry students, the plumbing was done by the plumbing students, and all the electrical work was done by the electrician students.

I'll bet you didn't think real world experience is provided in the school.

I still haven't figured out what this has to do with racism.

 

[Unkotare]

Care to point me to a link?

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Vocational Education in the US

nces.ed.gov

 

[Decus]

Thank you for proving you have no idea what you are talking about!

You wouldn't call that "immersive" shows you do not understand the program or the meaning of the term immersive.

In Germany, students are tested to determine their academic path in their equivalent of high school. I would assume Finland does the same. In this country, the students are allowed the freedom to choose.
Just like ROTC is not required to pursue a military career, that doesn't prevent others from opting out. My son quit ROTC after one semester and pursued a vocational path in metalworking. Little did he know, he would enlist during his senior year and serve 8 years in the Army as an infantryman.

I went to a teacher's convention where a Colorado school built mobile homes on the school site and then sold them. Profits were used to fund Habitat for Humanity or similar charities. The structure of the home was built by the carpentry students, the plumbing was done by the plumbing students, and all the electrical work was done by the electrician students.

I'll bet you didn't think real world experience is provided in the school.

I still haven't figured out what this has to do with racism.

You seized on the word "racism" in the opening post and ask what that has to do with vocational schools. Funny.

The original poster in fact suggested that the brightest students should be given a chance to learn and not be held back by students who obviously have no interest in their studies. I didn't agree with his argument that IQ should determine how students are grouped but feel motivation and desire is a better way to determine a student's likelihood of success, and that some students have no desire to pursue an academic path regarding their studies. See post #4.

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[Decus]

​

Thank you for proving you have no idea what you are talking about!

You wouldn't call that "immersive" shows you do not understand the program or the meaning of the term immersive.

In Germany, students are tested to determine their academic path in their equivalent of high school. I would assume Finland does the same. In this country, the students are allowed the freedom to choose.
Just like ROTC is not required to pursue a military career, that doesn't prevent others from opting out. My son quit ROTC after one semester and pursued a vocational path in metalworking. Little did he know, he would enlist during his senior year and serve 8 years in the Army as an infantryman.

I went to a teacher's convention where a Colorado school built mobile homes on the school site and then sold them. Profits were used to fund Habitat for Humanity or similar charities. The structure of the home was built by the carpentry students, the plumbing was done by the plumbing students, and all the electrical work was done by the electrician students.

I'll bet you didn't think real world experience is provided in the school.

I still haven't figured out what this has to do with racism.

That you found a vocational school that provided learning-by-doing instruction is commendable but can you tell me how many "full-time vocational schools" exist dedicated to teaching High School age students in the US?

@Unkotare​

Sent me info that I've been through before but highlights the problem regarding tracking of vocational schools and their performance:

"The National Assessment of Vocational Education (NAVE) recently found that most secondary vocational education is provided in comprehensive high schools, with vocational schools enrolling about 10 percent of secondary students and accounting for about 12 percent of vocational coursetaking.(6) Because of the limited capacity of available datasets to provide information on the three types of schools, this publication generally treats secondary vocational education as a single system.(7) "

Vocational Education in the US

nces.ed.gov

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[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

That you found a vocational school that provided learning-by-doing instruction is commendable but can you tell me how many "full-time vocational schools" exist dedicated to teaching High School age students in the US?

@Unkotare​

Sent me info that I've been through before but highlights the problem regarding tracking of vocational schools and their performance:

"The National Assessment of Vocational Education (NAVE) recently found that most secondary vocational education is provided in comprehensive high schools, with vocational schools enrolling about 10 percent of secondary students and accounting for about 12 percent of vocational coursetaking.(6) Because of the limited capacity of available datasets to provide information on the three types of schools, this publication generally treats secondary vocational education as a single system.(7) "

Vocational Education in the US

nces.ed.gov

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In Jacksonville FL, where I taught for almost 10 years. the district has two full-time vocational schools that student can attend for all 4 years of high school. As far as the rest of the country, I would have no idea. Those determinations are made by local school boards. Why don't you run for school board so you can ensure your district has such a program in place?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

That you found a vocational school that provided learning-by-doing instruction is commendable but can you tell me how many "full-time vocational schools" exist dedicated to teaching High School age students in the US?

@Unkotare​

Sent me info that I've been through before but highlights the problem regarding tracking of vocational schools and their performance:

"The National Assessment of Vocational Education (NAVE) recently found that most secondary vocational education is provided in comprehensive high schools, with vocational schools enrolling about 10 percent of secondary students and accounting for about 12 percent of vocational coursetaking.(6) Because of the limited capacity of available datasets to provide information on the three types of schools, this publication generally treats secondary vocational education as a single system.(7) "

Vocational Education in the US

nces.ed.gov

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Why do you limit it to full time? Vocational education students don't need core academic classes?

Is someone ever going to explain what this has to do with racism?

 

[Decus]

Why do you limit it to full time? Vocational education students don't need core academic classes?

Is someone ever going to explain what this has to do with racism?

See post #26.

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[Decus]

In Jacksonville FL, where I taught for almost 10 years. the district has two full-time vocational schools that student can attend for all 4 years of high school. As far as the rest of the country, I would have no idea. Those determinations are made by local school boards. Why don't you run for school board so you can ensure your district has such a program in place?

The thread was premised on the fact that there are many students who are not interested in school. The OP suggested grouping students by their IQ and let the smarter kids learn, even if that might seem racist to some.

The fact is that discipline is a problem in many schools and disruptive students take time away from students who want to learn.

https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2020-10-13/school-suspension-data-shows-glaring-disparities-in-discipline-by-race

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[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

See post #26.

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I read it. I still don't see what it had to do with racism.

 

[Decus]

I read it. I still don't see what it had to do with racism.

Suggesting that students be grouped by IQ is considered racist by some people.

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[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Suggesting that students be grouped by IQ is considered racist by some people.

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Perhaps because I don't believe that is the reason why I didn't understand the relationship. Those who believe someone's IQ is racist obviously is not very intelligent themselves. Thank you for making the connection for me!

 

[TheParser]

Bottom line.

No one knows whether certain ethnicities are more intelligent than others.

A wise man once said something like this: If scientists ever "proved" that ethnicities had different levels of intelligence, it would be necessary to keep this "discovery" secret.

The most important thing in any society is harmony.

Just imagine if your ethnicity were "proved" to be less intelligent. It would destroy you psychologically.

So -- in order to keep all Americans feeling positive about themselves -- we must all publicly accept the idea that ALL ethnicities are EQUALLY intelligent.

 

[Unkotare]

...

The most important thing in any society is harmony.

....

No, it's not.