Question for proponents of the Public Option Plan/Single Payer Plan.

[Immanuel]

I think, Immie, you are more liberal than you admit...

why you rail against your inner nature is pretty strange...and funny.

I do no such thing, I rail against the men and women, we as a nation have relinquished our nation to. They cannot be trusted and unfortunately, the life path they have embarked upon leads to corruption. I don't blame them for that fact, but they all fall into that path.

IMO, life in general would be easier and more productive if we didn't have to worry about health insurance.

Read up, I said the same thing earlier.

You've STILL not addressed the fact that we already pay for 46% of Americans through taxes.

Because, it doesn't matter to me... 46% is a long way from full control and I am not convinced of the accuracy of the chart you showed.

Immie

 

[Care4all]

Six months is the minimum recommended by Financial Planners. Unfortunately, when you are raising a family that is not so easy to do. In fact, it is about as possible as affording COBRA.



So, you think taking the availability of plans (coverages/deductibles/costs/prescription plans etc.) and dropping it down to one is more options?



Guess, what the lower middle to middle class already cannot afford it. That has been the entire discussion. The only people that can afford it are the super rich... that is why it sucks.

Immie

yes, they can NOT afford it Immie..COBRA was never meant to be affordable for the masses....it was meant to keep ones coverage going, if they were sick or a family member was sick....the $700-1000 a month is outrageous, but it is still BETTER than the $2500 a month that it would cost you for your family if you had to buy insurance as an individual without the group rate and....

thus the need for health care insurance reform...the reform that you are fighting against....

I personally have no problems if we ever went to a single payer plan, with doctors and hospitals still in the private sector.... My personal experience with the insurance companies HAS NOT BEEN GOOD and if i never have to deal with them again, I would be a happy person....maybe other people have had better experiences, but I haven't....and I can only go on my own experience.

Care

Care, single payer doesn't mean doctors and hospitals aren't in the private sector. It only means that insurance would be structured like Medicare...Medicare is an insurance plan, not an employer of doctors.

Oh, I know that Ravi...I was just saying it out loud so others realize a single payer plan is not hospitals and doctors working for the government and them being on the govts payroll, as many on the right KEEP SAYING.

 

[Care4all]

yes, they can NOT afford it Immie..COBRA was never meant to be affordable for the masses....it was meant to keep ones coverage going, if they were sick or a family member was sick....the $700-1000 a month is outrageous, but it is still BETTER than the $2500 a month that it would cost you for your family if you had to buy insurance as an individual without the group rate and....

thus the need for health care insurance reform...the reform that you are fighting against....

I personally have no problems if we ever went to a single payer plan, with doctors and hospitals still in the private sector.... My personal experience with the insurance companies HAS NOT BEEN GOOD and if i never have to deal with them again, I would be a happy person....maybe other people have had better experiences, but I haven't....and I can only go on my own experience.

Care

Funny, I know of no one who has fought against health care reform, rather they have been fighting against the idea that there is only one way to reform health care and that being a full blown jump into socialism.

As I have stated repeatedly, I don't have another solution, but a government run fiasco is not a solution either. If you are wrong, and you are, we cannot afford the disaster that will follow. I know the industry needs a complete overhaul, but how is that to be done? We can't trust the politicians. We can't trust the insurance providers. Doing nothing is not an option, but neither is handing an entire industry and hundreds of thousands of jobs over to the government and giving them control of our health and our well being.

Immie

I don't see how you think this bill is a jump in to socialism...it falls WAY SHORT of anything like such....there is no take over...everything is still ALL DONE with the private sector....with their profits, with their every whim being met....we the people have lost, insurance companies have won big time.... a gvt take over and single payer plan would be welcomed by me, in a heartbeat, compared to the assholes at the insurance companies....I'd take a medicare type plan that i paid in to, any day of the week over these suckers... I have been clear on that...I am NOT afraid of it...because it can NOT be any worse than it is now imo.

Care

 

[Immanuel]

yes, they can NOT afford it Immie..COBRA was never meant to be affordable for the masses....it was meant to keep ones coverage going, if they were sick or a family member was sick....the $700-1000 a month is outrageous, but it is still BETTER than the $2500 a month that it would cost you for your family if you had to buy insurance as an individual without the group rate and....

thus the need for health care insurance reform...the reform that you are fighting against....

I personally have no problems if we ever went to a single payer plan, with doctors and hospitals still in the private sector.... My personal experience with the insurance companies HAS NOT BEEN GOOD and if i never have to deal with them again, I would be a happy person....maybe other people have had better experiences, but I haven't....and I can only go on my own experience.

Care

Funny, I know of no one who has fought against health care reform, rather they have been fighting against the idea that there is only one way to reform health care and that being a full blown jump into socialism.

As I have stated repeatedly, I don't have another solution, but a government run fiasco is not a solution either. If you are wrong, and you are, we cannot afford the disaster that will follow. I know the industry needs a complete overhaul, but how is that to be done? We can't trust the politicians. We can't trust the insurance providers. Doing nothing is not an option, but neither is handing an entire industry and hundreds of thousands of jobs over to the government and giving them control of our health and our well being.

Immie

I don't see how you think this bill is a jump in to socialism...it falls WAY SHORT of anything like such....there is no take over...everything is still ALL DONE with the private sector....with their profits, with their every whim being met....we the people have lost, insurance companies have won big time.... a gvt take over and single payer plan would be welcomed by me, in a heartbeat, compared to the assholes at the insurance companies....I'd take a medicare type plan that i paid in to, any day of the week over these suckers... I have been clear on that...I am NOT afraid of it...because it can NOT be any worse than it is now imo.

Care

If you would just read, you would see that it is designed to destroy the private insurance companies. In five years they will be extinct or no more than puppet plans sponsored by the government and the government will have full control of the industry.

You would take a medicare plan that was funded on IOU's just like Social Security because you do not think about what our great grand children will have to play with in the future. We have already saddled them with our debt, a debt this country will never be able to dig its way out of and you want to add hundreds of billions of more dollars to it because you hate the idea of anyone making a profit.

A don't try giving my that bullshit that it will be fully funded by those who are insured, because you know as well as I do that that is bullshit.

Immie

 

[JakeStarkey]

All the cons do is blah blah blah blah blah because they cannot talk objectively about the issue.

The health insurance industry raped the American public. It is now being castrated.

 

[Ravi]

Immie, do you think the insurance companies have a right to exist? Not that they can exist if they are successful....but do they have some sort of constitutional right to exist and not be out-competed? I don't. Nor would it be socialism any more than Social Security is socialism. They are merely social programs.

 

[Care4all]

Funny, I know of no one who has fought against health care reform, rather they have been fighting against the idea that there is only one way to reform health care and that being a full blown jump into socialism.

As I have stated repeatedly, I don't have another solution, but a government run fiasco is not a solution either. If you are wrong, and you are, we cannot afford the disaster that will follow. I know the industry needs a complete overhaul, but how is that to be done? We can't trust the politicians. We can't trust the insurance providers. Doing nothing is not an option, but neither is handing an entire industry and hundreds of thousands of jobs over to the government and giving them control of our health and our well being.

Immie

I don't see how you think this bill is a jump in to socialism...it falls WAY SHORT of anything like such....there is no take over...everything is still ALL DONE with the private sector....with their profits, with their every whim being met....we the people have lost, insurance companies have won big time.... a gvt take over and single payer plan would be welcomed by me, in a heartbeat, compared to the assholes at the insurance companies....I'd take a medicare type plan that i paid in to, any day of the week over these suckers... I have been clear on that...I am NOT afraid of it...because it can NOT be any worse than it is now imo.

Care

If you would just read, you would see that it is designed to destroy the private insurance companies. In five years they will be extinct or no more than puppet plans sponsored by the government and the government will have full control of the industry.

You would take a medicare plan that was funded on IOU's just like Social Security because you do not think about what our great grand children will have to play with in the future. We have already saddled them with our debt, a debt this country will never be able to dig its way out of and you want to add hundreds of billions of more dollars to it because you hate the idea of anyone making a profit.

A don't try giving my that bullshit that it will be fully funded by those who are insured, because you know as well as I do that that is bullshit.

Immie

You know, sometimes I think you play this 'card' of yours just to see if you can get me angry at you immie...

Unless something has changed in the language of the Public Option insurance plan that was in hr3200....

there is NOTHING DESIGNED in this bill with the public insurance option to destroy the insurance companies out...stop LYING please...that is your opinion but that is FAR FROM FACT.... I realize that you do not think you are lying, but it is a LIE none the less immie....it is NOT designed to bring the insurance companies down, it IS DESIGNED in the manner to give them ALL A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD so that true competition exists.

The Public Option CAN NOT BE PAID FOR WITH TAXES...it says so in the legislation. STOP STOP STOP NOW WITH THAT LIE...please, I have had enough of this lie, why? BECAUSE IT IS A LIE....

The public option has NO ADVANTAGE GIVEN THEM by the government over the private sector....if the private sector fails, it fails because of what the private sector does to themselves, and I can assure you, they will NOT GO BELLY UP, WITHOUT A FIGHT.....and that fight will entail the private insurance companies becoming MORE EFFICIENT themselves....THAT is the whole idea of the public option.

This entire bill is NOT what i have come to believe is the way to go with our health care...I believe we should just go in to a single payer plan for all of us, paid for through the money we now spend on private insurance, via new taxes...yep, I have no faith in the insurance companies to bring the cost of health insurance down to an affordable level, especially WITHOUT the public insurance plan to keep them honest.

The Public Option is set up that IT CAN NOT BECOME a SINGLE PAYER PLAN....

Because the Plan holders all pay their own premium, the government does NOT PAY IT through taxes on them....

So again, even if unintentional, what you keep saying about this Public Insurance Option as being DESIGNED to bring the insurance companies down, it's a lie....it is specifically designed to be COMPETITION, with no favors.

Will it lead people to be happy with it and make them think that a single payer plan might be ok, somewhere down the road, someday? THAT may be the case...BUT if the public ever chose to go the route of a single payer insurer, IT WILL NOT BE THIS PUBLIC INSURANCE OPTION, IT CAN'T BE, according to the LEGISLATION because it was NOT DESIGNED TO BE..

Care

 

[Bfgrn]

Bfgrn,

I think I wrote that two years ago. I have been saying that for years. I fully understand that we are in dire need of a reform of our health insurance. However, I am in disagreement with you in regards to letting the government take control of another social program. They have proven with every program they have undertaken to be unsuccessful.

I happen to like the idea of not having to deal with health insurance anymore. I would love the idea of never having to worry about my coverage again. The thought of having Uncle Sam provide coverage for me and take out a payroll deduction from my check seems great. Hassle free for life! Where do I sign up?

But in reality, the program will run at a deficit for ever. Uncle Sam will fiddle with the laws and in a few years it will be bankrupt and the only thing keeping it going will be red ink and IOU's.

Do I have a better solution? Sadly, no!

But for people to preach that this is the saving grace of the American people and let's face it, that is exactly what you guys are doing, is absolutely ludicrous.

We've been in a health care crisis for at least 10 years. Things have been out of hand and ignored by those in Washington for a long time. Now that Liberal Democrats have control they see an opportunity for a power grab and frankly, I see this as frightening.

This is clearly an attempt to socialize medicine. The powers that be in Washington have said as much. When they finish with medicine what will be next? What kind of freedoms will we have when they are done?

Immie

Here's something to really, REALLY think about Immie...WHAT do YOU want America to be, a representative republic or a privatized corporatocracy? The Republicans tell us our only problem in America is government. WHAT do they offer to replace it?? It seem perfectly CLEAR to me that their solution is to turn America over to corporations. We've seen Bills passed by Congress that were written BY corporate lawyers, lobbyists and special interest groups...we have draconian laws that severely punish the average breadwinner when he or she tangles with corporations (like credit card interest rate hikes that even the Mafia consider dishonest)

I understand and support sensible and healthy skepticism of government. Our founding fathers promoted THAT type of skepticism. But what you are saying in essence Immie is that our founding fathers FAILED... the form of governing they created needs to be scrapped...But let me ask you; WHAT representation do you have with corporations??? If you are not a board member of a controlling stock holder, you have NONE...

Ironically, the health insurance corporations of today are a PERFECT replica of the unfair and punitive corporate policies of the British East India Company...the REAL tea party was over corporations that were TOO powerful...

Here is a segment of an EXCELLENT speech by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. IMO, he hits it right on the head...

September 10, 2005

There is nothing wrong with corporations. Corporations are a good thing. They encourage us to take risks. They maximize wealth. They create jobs. I own a corporation. They're a great thing, but they should not be running our government. The reason for that is they don't have the same aspirations for America that you and I do. A corporation does not want democracy. It does not want free markets, it wants profits, and the best way for it to get profits is to use our campaign-finance system -- which is just a system of legalized bribery -- to get their stakes, their hooks into a public official and then use that public official to dismantle the marketplace to give them a competitive advantage and then to privatize the commons, to steal the commonwealth, to liquidate public assets for cash, to plunder, to steal from the rest of us.

And that doesn't mean corporations are a bad thing. It just means they're amoral, and we have to recognize that and not let them into the political process. Let them do their thing, but they should not be participating in our political process, because a corporation cannot do something genuinely philanthropic. It's against the law in this country, because their shareholders can sue them for wasting corporate resources. They cannot legally do anything that will not increase their profit margins. That's the way the law works, and we have to recognize that and understand that they are toxic for the political process, and they have to be fenced off and kept out of the political process. This is why throughout our history our most visionary political leaders -- Republican and Democrat -- have been warning the American public against domination by corporate power.

This White House has done a great job of persuading a gullible press and the American public that the big threat to American democracy is big government. Well, yeah, big government is a threat ultimately, but it is dwarfed by the threat of excessive corporate power and the corrosive impact that has on our democracy. And you know, as I said, you look at all the great political leaders in this country and the central theme is that we have to be cautious about, we have to avoid, the domination of our government by corporate power.

Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican, said that America would never be destroyed by a foreign power but he warned that our political institutions, our democratic institutions, would be subverted by malefactors of great wealth, who would erode them from within. Dwight Eisenhower, another Republican, in his most famous speech, warned America against domination by the military industrial complex.

Abraham Lincoln, the greatest Republican in our history, said during the height of the Civil War "I have the South in front of me and I have the bankers behind me. And for my country, I fear the bankers more." Franklin Roosevelt said during World War II that the domination of government by corporate power is "the essence of fascism" and Benito Mussolini -- who had an insider's view of that process -- said the same thing. Essentially, he complained that fascism should not be called fascism. It should be called corporatism because it was the merger of state and corporate power. And what we have to understand as Americans is that the domination of business by government is called communism. The domination of government by business is called fascism. And our job is to walk that narrow trail in between, which is free-market capitalism and democracy. And keep big government at bay with our right hand and corporate power at bay with our left.

Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Speech, 9/10/05 > Press Room > Sierra Club

 

[Intense]

All the cons do is blah blah blah blah blah because they cannot talk objectively about the issue.

The health insurance industry raped the American public. It is now being castrated.

Where we differ is that probably see Government as an innocent Bystander,where I view Government as the Silent Partner, or Conspirator.

 

[Immanuel]

I don't see how you think this bill is a jump in to socialism...it falls WAY SHORT of anything like such....there is no take over...everything is still ALL DONE with the private sector....with their profits, with their every whim being met....we the people have lost, insurance companies have won big time.... a gvt take over and single payer plan would be welcomed by me, in a heartbeat, compared to the assholes at the insurance companies....I'd take a medicare type plan that i paid in to, any day of the week over these suckers... I have been clear on that...I am NOT afraid of it...because it can NOT be any worse than it is now imo.

Care

If you would just read, you would see that it is designed to destroy the private insurance companies. In five years they will be extinct or no more than puppet plans sponsored by the government and the government will have full control of the industry.

You would take a medicare plan that was funded on IOU's just like Social Security because you do not think about what our great grand children will have to play with in the future. We have already saddled them with our debt, a debt this country will never be able to dig its way out of and you want to add hundreds of billions of more dollars to it because you hate the idea of anyone making a profit.

A don't try giving my that bullshit that it will be fully funded by those who are insured, because you know as well as I do that that is bullshit.

Immie

You know, sometimes I think you play this 'card' of yours just to see if you can get me angry at you immie...

Unless something has changed in the language of the Public Option insurance plan that was in hr3200....

there is NOTHING DESIGNED in this bill with the public insurance option to destroy the insurance companies out...stop LYING please...that is your opinion but that is FAR FROM FACT.... I realize that you do not think you are lying, but it is a LIE none the less immie....it is NOT designed to bring the insurance companies down, it IS DESIGNED in the manner to give them ALL A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD so that true competition exists.

The Public Option CAN NOT BE PAID FOR WITH TAXES...it says so in the legislation. STOP STOP STOP NOW WITH THAT LIE...please, I have had enough of this lie, why? BECAUSE IT IS A LIE....

The public option has NO ADVANTAGE GIVEN THEM by the government over the private sector....if the private sector fails, it fails because of what the private sector does to themselves, and I can assure you, they will NOT GO BELLY UP, WITHOUT A FIGHT.....and that fight will entail the private insurance companies becoming MORE EFFICIENT themselves....THAT is the whole idea of the public option.

This entire bill is NOT what i have come to believe is the way to go with our health care...I believe we should just go in to a single payer plan for all of us, paid for through the money we now spend on private insurance, via new taxes...yep, I have no faith in the insurance companies to bring the cost of health insurance down to an affordable level, especially WITHOUT the public insurance plan to keep them honest.

The Public Option is set up that IT CAN NOT BECOME a SINGLE PAYER PLAN....

Because the Plan holders all pay their own premium, the government does NOT PAY IT through taxes on them....

So again, even if unintentional, what you keep saying about this Public Insurance Option as being DESIGNED to bring the insurance companies down, it's a lie....it is specifically designed to be COMPETITION, with no favors.

Will it lead people to be happy with it and make them think that a single payer plan might be ok, somewhere down the road, someday? THAT may be the case...BUT if the public ever chose to go the route of a single payer insurer, IT WILL NOT BE THIS PUBLIC INSURANCE OPTION, IT CAN'T BE, according to the LEGISLATION because it was NOT DESIGNED TO BE..

Care

I'm not even going to read all that BS care. The first sentence of the third paragraph was enough. Of course, the language does not specifically state that the intention of the plan is to eliminate private insurance. You used to analyze the market for selling shoes. Why don't you put your little brain to work and think about what exactly the language in hr3200 would do.

Is Congress going to come out and say, "it is our express goal to eliminate completely one large segment of the American Economy and put hundreds of thousands of individuals out of work"? Hell no they are not. But if you even tried to read the language, you would see that is what will happen.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Bfgrn,

I think I wrote that two years ago. I have been saying that for years. I fully understand that we are in dire need of a reform of our health insurance. However, I am in disagreement with you in regards to letting the government take control of another social program. They have proven with every program they have undertaken to be unsuccessful.

I happen to like the idea of not having to deal with health insurance anymore. I would love the idea of never having to worry about my coverage again. The thought of having Uncle Sam provide coverage for me and take out a payroll deduction from my check seems great. Hassle free for life! Where do I sign up?

But in reality, the program will run at a deficit for ever. Uncle Sam will fiddle with the laws and in a few years it will be bankrupt and the only thing keeping it going will be red ink and IOU's.

Do I have a better solution? Sadly, no!

But for people to preach that this is the saving grace of the American people and let's face it, that is exactly what you guys are doing, is absolutely ludicrous.

We've been in a health care crisis for at least 10 years. Things have been out of hand and ignored by those in Washington for a long time. Now that Liberal Democrats have control they see an opportunity for a power grab and frankly, I see this as frightening.

This is clearly an attempt to socialize medicine. The powers that be in Washington have said as much. When they finish with medicine what will be next? What kind of freedoms will we have when they are done?

Immie

Here's something to really, REALLY think about Immie...WHAT do YOU want America to be, a representative republic or a privatized corporatocracy? The Republicans tell us our only problem in America is government. WHAT do they offer to replace it?? It seem perfectly CLEAR to me that their solution is to turn America over to corporations. We've seen Bills passed by Congress that were written BY corporate lawyers, lobbyists and special interest groups...we have draconian laws that severely punish the average breadwinner when he or she tangles with corporations (like credit card interest rate hikes that even the Mafia consider dishonest)

I understand and support sensible and healthy skepticism of government. Our founding fathers promoted THAT type of skepticism. But what you are saying in essence Immie is that our founding fathers FAILED... the form of governing they created needs to be scrapped...But let me ask you; WHAT representation do you have with corporations??? If you are not a board member of a controlling stock holder, you have NONE...

Ironically, the health insurance corporations of today are a PERFECT replica of the unfair and punitive corporate policies of the British East India Company...the REAL tea party was over corporations that were TOO powerful...

Here is a segment of an EXCELLENT speech by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. IMO, he hits it right on the head...

September 10, 2005

There is nothing wrong with corporations. Corporations are a good thing. They encourage us to take risks. They maximize wealth. They create jobs. I own a corporation. They're a great thing, but they should not be running our government. The reason for that is they don't have the same aspirations for America that you and I do. A corporation does not want democracy. It does not want free markets, it wants profits, and the best way for it to get profits is to use our campaign-finance system -- which is just a system of legalized bribery -- to get their stakes, their hooks into a public official and then use that public official to dismantle the marketplace to give them a competitive advantage and then to privatize the commons, to steal the commonwealth, to liquidate public assets for cash, to plunder, to steal from the rest of us.

And that doesn't mean corporations are a bad thing. It just means they're amoral, and we have to recognize that and not let them into the political process. Let them do their thing, but they should not be participating in our political process, because a corporation cannot do something genuinely philanthropic. It's against the law in this country, because their shareholders can sue them for wasting corporate resources. They cannot legally do anything that will not increase their profit margins. That's the way the law works, and we have to recognize that and understand that they are toxic for the political process, and they have to be fenced off and kept out of the political process. This is why throughout our history our most visionary political leaders -- Republican and Democrat -- have been warning the American public against domination by corporate power.

This White House has done a great job of persuading a gullible press and the American public that the big threat to American democracy is big government. Well, yeah, big government is a threat ultimately, but it is dwarfed by the threat of excessive corporate power and the corrosive impact that has on our democracy. And you know, as I said, you look at all the great political leaders in this country and the central theme is that we have to be cautious about, we have to avoid, the domination of our government by corporate power.

Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican, said that America would never be destroyed by a foreign power but he warned that our political institutions, our democratic institutions, would be subverted by malefactors of great wealth, who would erode them from within. Dwight Eisenhower, another Republican, in his most famous speech, warned America against domination by the military industrial complex.

Abraham Lincoln, the greatest Republican in our history, said during the height of the Civil War "I have the South in front of me and I have the bankers behind me. And for my country, I fear the bankers more." Franklin Roosevelt said during World War II that the domination of government by corporate power is "the essence of fascism" and Benito Mussolini -- who had an insider's view of that process -- said the same thing. Essentially, he complained that fascism should not be called fascism. It should be called corporatism because it was the merger of state and corporate power. And what we have to understand as Americans is that the domination of business by government is called communism. The domination of government by business is called fascism. And our job is to walk that narrow trail in between, which is free-market capitalism and democracy. And keep big government at bay with our right hand and corporate power at bay with our left.

Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Speech, 9/10/05 > Press Room > Sierra Club

Bfgrn,

I would not say that they have failed. There is a quote, I think it was by Winston Churchill, but I cannot swear to it and I don't have time to google it, that says in essense that all Democracy will eventually fail when citizens realize how to work the system. I love my country. But, I hate to say it, that I am afraid our Democratic Republic may be in its dying throes.

Washington DC has become rotten with corruption and there is nothing in the world that we as citizens can do to change that. That is the nature of power. I'm not blaming Republicans or Democrats, it is simply the way things are and eventually, just like every other civilization, this one is going to collapse. What emerges from the ashes only time will tell.

I would rather not see it in my lifetime, but I think it is inevitable.

Did the founding fathers fail? No, they didn't. Democracy has its life span. Our "Democracy" is no different than any other. But, it is not a failure by any stretch of the imagination.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Immie, do you think the insurance companies have a right to exist? Not that they can exist if they are successful....but do they have some sort of constitutional right to exist and not be out-competed? I don't. Nor would it be socialism any more than Social Security is socialism. They are merely social programs.

I believe in the idea of Capitalism although I realize there needs to be regulation. I believe that the shareholders of any corporation has the right to put up their capital in order to produce a profit. Is it expressed in the Constituntion? No, but neither is abortion.

Social Security is a product of socialistic thinking. That DOES NOT mean it is evil. It means that it is a product of socialistic thinking.

Immie

 

[Bfgrn]

Bfgrn,

I think I wrote that two years ago. I have been saying that for years. I fully understand that we are in dire need of a reform of our health insurance. However, I am in disagreement with you in regards to letting the government take control of another social program. They have proven with every program they have undertaken to be unsuccessful.

I happen to like the idea of not having to deal with health insurance anymore. I would love the idea of never having to worry about my coverage again. The thought of having Uncle Sam provide coverage for me and take out a payroll deduction from my check seems great. Hassle free for life! Where do I sign up?

But in reality, the program will run at a deficit for ever. Uncle Sam will fiddle with the laws and in a few years it will be bankrupt and the only thing keeping it going will be red ink and IOU's.

Do I have a better solution? Sadly, no!

But for people to preach that this is the saving grace of the American people and let's face it, that is exactly what you guys are doing, is absolutely ludicrous.

We've been in a health care crisis for at least 10 years. Things have been out of hand and ignored by those in Washington for a long time. Now that Liberal Democrats have control they see an opportunity for a power grab and frankly, I see this as frightening.

This is clearly an attempt to socialize medicine. The powers that be in Washington have said as much. When they finish with medicine what will be next? What kind of freedoms will we have when they are done?

Immie

Here's something to really, REALLY think about Immie...WHAT do YOU want America to be, a representative republic or a privatized corporatocracy? The Republicans tell us our only problem in America is government. WHAT do they offer to replace it?? It seem perfectly CLEAR to me that their solution is to turn America over to corporations. We've seen Bills passed by Congress that were written BY corporate lawyers, lobbyists and special interest groups...we have draconian laws that severely punish the average breadwinner when he or she tangles with corporations (like credit card interest rate hikes that even the Mafia consider dishonest)

I understand and support sensible and healthy skepticism of government. Our founding fathers promoted THAT type of skepticism. But what you are saying in essence Immie is that our founding fathers FAILED... the form of governing they created needs to be scrapped...But let me ask you; WHAT representation do you have with corporations??? If you are not a board member of a controlling stock holder, you have NONE...

Ironically, the health insurance corporations of today are a PERFECT replica of the unfair and punitive corporate policies of the British East India Company...the REAL tea party was over corporations that were TOO powerful...

Here is a segment of an EXCELLENT speech by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. IMO, he hits it right on the head...

September 10, 2005

There is nothing wrong with corporations. Corporations are a good thing. They encourage us to take risks. They maximize wealth. They create jobs. I own a corporation. They're a great thing, but they should not be running our government. The reason for that is they don't have the same aspirations for America that you and I do. A corporation does not want democracy. It does not want free markets, it wants profits, and the best way for it to get profits is to use our campaign-finance system -- which is just a system of legalized bribery -- to get their stakes, their hooks into a public official and then use that public official to dismantle the marketplace to give them a competitive advantage and then to privatize the commons, to steal the commonwealth, to liquidate public assets for cash, to plunder, to steal from the rest of us.

And that doesn't mean corporations are a bad thing. It just means they're amoral, and we have to recognize that and not let them into the political process. Let them do their thing, but they should not be participating in our political process, because a corporation cannot do something genuinely philanthropic. It's against the law in this country, because their shareholders can sue them for wasting corporate resources. They cannot legally do anything that will not increase their profit margins. That's the way the law works, and we have to recognize that and understand that they are toxic for the political process, and they have to be fenced off and kept out of the political process. This is why throughout our history our most visionary political leaders -- Republican and Democrat -- have been warning the American public against domination by corporate power.

This White House has done a great job of persuading a gullible press and the American public that the big threat to American democracy is big government. Well, yeah, big government is a threat ultimately, but it is dwarfed by the threat of excessive corporate power and the corrosive impact that has on our democracy. And you know, as I said, you look at all the great political leaders in this country and the central theme is that we have to be cautious about, we have to avoid, the domination of our government by corporate power.

Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican, said that America would never be destroyed by a foreign power but he warned that our political institutions, our democratic institutions, would be subverted by malefactors of great wealth, who would erode them from within. Dwight Eisenhower, another Republican, in his most famous speech, warned America against domination by the military industrial complex.

Abraham Lincoln, the greatest Republican in our history, said during the height of the Civil War "I have the South in front of me and I have the bankers behind me. And for my country, I fear the bankers more." Franklin Roosevelt said during World War II that the domination of government by corporate power is "the essence of fascism" and Benito Mussolini -- who had an insider's view of that process -- said the same thing. Essentially, he complained that fascism should not be called fascism. It should be called corporatism because it was the merger of state and corporate power. And what we have to understand as Americans is that the domination of business by government is called communism. The domination of government by business is called fascism. And our job is to walk that narrow trail in between, which is free-market capitalism and democracy. And keep big government at bay with our right hand and corporate power at bay with our left.

Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Speech, 9/10/05 > Press Room > Sierra Club

Bfgrn,

I would not say that they have failed. There is a quote, I think it was by Winston Churchill, but I cannot swear to it and I don't have time to google it, that says in essense that all Democracy will eventually fail when citizens realize how to work the system. I love my country. But, I hate to say it, that I am afraid our Democratic Republic may be in its dying throes.

Washington DC has become rotten with corruption and there is nothing in the world that we as citizens can do to change that. That is the nature of power. I'm not blaming Republicans or Democrats, it is simply the way things are and eventually, just like every other civilization, this one is going to collapse. What emerges from the ashes only time will tell.

I would rather not see it in my lifetime, but I think it is inevitable.

Did the founding fathers fail? No, they didn't. Democracy has its life span. Our "Democracy" is no different than any other. But, it is not a failure by any stretch of the imagination.

Immie

Here is some interesting reading...

Unequal Protection by Thom Hartmann


-----------------------------


The first thing to understand is the difference between the natural person and the fictitious person called a corporation. They differ in the purpose for which they are created, in the strength which they possess, and in the restraints under which they act.

Man is the handiwork of God and was placed upon earth to carry out a Divine purpose; the corporation is the handiwork of man and created to carry out a money-making policy.

There is comparatively little difference in the strength of men; a corporation may be one hundred, one thousand, or even one million times stronger than the average man. Man acts under the restraints of conscience, and is influenced also by a belief in a future life. A corporation has no soul and cares nothing about the hereafter.

A corporation has no rights except those given it by law. It can exercise no power except that conferred upon it by the people through legislation, and the people should be as free to withhold as to give, public interest and not private advantage being the end in view.

-- William Jennings Bryan
address to the Ohio 1912 Constitutional Convention

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

 

[judyd]

Immie, do you think the insurance companies have a right to exist? Not that they can exist if they are successful....but do they have some sort of constitutional right to exist and not be out-competed? I don't. Nor would it be socialism any more than Social Security is socialism. They are merely social programs.

I believe in the idea of Capitalism although I realize there needs to be regulation. I believe that the shareholders of any corporation has the right to put up their capital in order to produce a profit. Is it expressed in the Constituntion? No, but neither is abortion.

Social Security is a product of socialistic thinking. That DOES NOT mean it is evil. It means that it is a product of socialistic thinking.

Immie

I believe in capitalism too. I don't believe that healthcare--necessary for life itself--should have ever become a profit/loss business. This is the only country in which corporations try to profit from the health (or lack of) of its citizens.

People aren't buying cars here--they're trying to obtain life-sustaining care or treatment. And this should be doled out by profiteers? When did we enter this bizarro world???

 

[Tech_Esq]

Look here is the thing........You have THREE options for health care. Get it through your employer. Get it by buying it YOURSELF from an ins company(not possible for most people since it cost's over $1,000 dollars(more than a house payment for many) or go without and hope like HELL you or a family member NEVER gets sick. Now here's the REALLY bad thing. Let's say you get REALLY sick and lose your job because you can't work......Guess what.......Your ins is GONE when you need it MOST. I guess you could get COBRA for a few months but there is NO WAY you could afford it cause hey you are OUT OF A JOB!

I've had my own insurance for over a year and half. You really should stop spreading lies, like it will cost over $1,000. It costs no where near that. I pay under $500 per month for a family plan with Dental insurance. (from Blue Cross)

Really, people we need to stop lying about the current state of affairs. Anyone with a decent paying job can afford health insurance privately purchased. I just went to eheathinsurance.com. If you don't believe me, go there and see what a plan would cost for you. I have no affiliation, just proving a point.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Immie, do you think the insurance companies have a right to exist? Not that they can exist if they are successful....but do they have some sort of constitutional right to exist and not be out-competed? I don't. Nor would it be socialism any more than Social Security is socialism. They are merely social programs.

I believe in the idea of Capitalism although I realize there needs to be regulation. I believe that the shareholders of any corporation has the right to put up their capital in order to produce a profit. Is it expressed in the Constituntion? No, but neither is abortion.

Social Security is a product of socialistic thinking. That DOES NOT mean it is evil. It means that it is a product of socialistic thinking.

Immie

I believe in capitalism too. I don't believe that healthcare--necessary for life itself--should have ever become a profit/loss business. This is the only country in which corporations try to profit from the health (or lack of) of its citizens.

People aren't buying cars here--they're trying to obtain life-sustaining care or treatment. And this should be doled out by profiteers? When did we enter this bizarro world???

Right, so people who build houses, (shelter, necessary for life) should not make profits.

Grocery stores and farmers sell and produce food (definitely need for sustaining life) no profits for them either. Probably no restaurants either -- by extension.

Is the point getting through? That's a silly argument.

 

[judyd]

I believe in the idea of Capitalism although I realize there needs to be regulation. I believe that the shareholders of any corporation has the right to put up their capital in order to produce a profit. Is it expressed in the Constituntion? No, but neither is abortion.

Social Security is a product of socialistic thinking. That DOES NOT mean it is evil. It means that it is a product of socialistic thinking.

Immie

I believe in capitalism too. I don't believe that healthcare--necessary for life itself--should have ever become a profit/loss business. This is the only country in which corporations try to profit from the health (or lack of) of its citizens.

People aren't buying cars here--they're trying to obtain life-sustaining care or treatment. And this should be doled out by profiteers? When did we enter this bizarro world???

Right, so people who build houses, (shelter, necessary for life) should not make profits.

Grocery stores and farmers sell and produce food (definitely need for sustaining life) no profits for them either. Probably no restaurants either -- by extension.

Is the point getting through? That's a silly argument.

No it isn't. Grocery stores are hardly big profit makers. Same for most builders. Why should the health insurance companies be making profits of 428$?? Find me a builder (which many in my family have been in for generations) who make that sort of profit.

Aside from that though, medical care is not handled like this in any other country. I don't think people should be able to profit because they condemned a person to death because of a "pre-existing" condition, that they won't pay for--although the person has been paying them hundreds of dollars each month for coverage.

 

[JakeStarkey]

All the cons do is blah blah blah blah blah because they cannot talk objectively about the issue.

The health insurance industry raped the American public. It is now being castrated.

Where we differ is that probably see Government as an innocent Bystander,where I view Government as the Silent Partner, or Conspirator.

Because We Joe and Jane Citizen permitted the health insurance industry to buy off the government.

That ended with the election of 2008. Health insurance reform is here for good.

 

[judyd]

Look here is the thing........You have THREE options for health care. Get it through your employer. Get it by buying it YOURSELF from an ins company(not possible for most people since it cost's over $1,000 dollars(more than a house payment for many) or go without and hope like HELL you or a family member NEVER gets sick. Now here's the REALLY bad thing. Let's say you get REALLY sick and lose your job because you can't work......Guess what.......Your ins is GONE when you need it MOST. I guess you could get COBRA for a few months but there is NO WAY you could afford it cause hey you are OUT OF A JOB!

I've had my own insurance for over a year and half. You really should stop spreading lies, like it will cost over $1,000. It costs no where near that. I pay under $500 per month for a family plan with Dental insurance. (from Blue Cross)

Really, people we need to stop lying about the current state of affairs. Anyone with a decent paying job can afford health insurance privately purchased. I just went to eheathinsurance.com. If you don't believe me, go there and see what a plan would cost for you. I have no affiliation, just proving a point.

You apparently are very young with no problems. At the last company where I worked, one of the guys went out of our company plan, in which he was paying over $1,000 a month for family coverage, for a cheaper plan he obtained through the internet.

Everything was fine until he came down with multiple sclerosis--no previous history or family history, but they soon cancelled his coverage. They had no intention of taking care of someone who had so many medical needs.

Sure, buy internet insurance or any of those other plans--just don't get sick!