Zone1 Question for Evangelicals

[Arlette]

I have failed at nothing. You are guilty of not convincing ME that the Bible is incorrect. The scriptures remain unbroken as they have over the past 3500 years. Again........absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Secular fascists always attempt to make the mule push the plow. I believe, I have faith.........why should I attempt to convince you of anything? "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling......" -- Phil. 2:12 I simply defend the truth and the faith/hope that resides IN ME..........NOT YOU. (1 Peter 3:15)

Truth and facts are linked together. Facts establish truth. The Bible is short on facts.

 

[ding]

Sure. So why is there a gazillion different flavors of Christianity when it's so easy to figure out the one true way. It's not that hard to figure out, is it?

Because there are a gazillion different perceptions of God. You have the arguments of a child.

 

[ding]

You are guilty of not convincing me there is a god.

Hopefully he cares about that as little as I do. I just enjoy watching you promote your religion of atheism.

 

[ding]

Truth and facts are linked together. Facts establish truth. The Bible is short on facts.

How so?

 

[ding]

Sure!

We used to believe in an uncountable number of gods.

Then the number grew smaller. Eventually, it got down to the thousands.

Then, It got down to a few hundred. Then, to one.

It seems to me history shows we are getting closer to the truth every day! It has been a pretty long and arduous process.

(watch as people leave religion in droves)

Congratulations. You just wrote a bunch of words to say monotheism replaced polytheism. So what? Truth is discovered. Or is that concept to difficult for you to grasp?

 

[Clyde 154]

Truth and facts are linked together. Facts establish truth. The Bible is short on facts.

What single FACT is the bible short on...........prove your accusation.....or not. FYI: For the ignorant............facts alone do not establish truth. What? Prima Facie truth does not exist?

Our prison system is filled with individuals that were convicted on Prime Facie evidences alone. Educate yourself.

 

[Clyde 154]

Difference being I don't care if you believe the bible is correct or not. You are free to believe what you will. Your belief is none of my business. The rub comes when you try to impose your beliefs on others. At that point, I will make it known that I refuse to have my choices determined by your belief.

Yeah...........YOU DON'T care if the bible is correct or not, THAT'S WHY YOU DID NOT RESPOND BY SAYING THAT OTHERS ARE IMPOSING THEIR FREE WILL UPON YOUR FREE WILL.
What? Are you the victim? Then in the next breath you state that you can refuse the choices of others. Which is it............are you being imposed upon .......or......do you refuse to be imposed upon? Ever hear of the law of the excluded middle? I have never seen a fascist that is not A VICTIM of some type.......poor little liberals. Lets burn all the bibles and intern those evil Christians.

Logic and you are not close relatives?

 

[Arlette]

What single FACT is the bible short on...........prove your accusation.....or not. FYI: For the ignorant............facts alone do not establish truth. What? Prima Facie truth does not exist?

Our prison system is filled with individuals that were convicted on Prime Facie evidences alone. Educate yourself.

You can start at the beginning - mud made man and rib made woman.

 

[Hector12]

Knowing that trump has repeatedly been shown to exemplify all the above listed abominations to God,
how can evangelicals, or any person who claims to love God support such a man for the leader of our country? Especially in the light of him recently calling Iowa evangelicals “so called Christians” and “pieces of shit”

Evangelicals are nostalgic about the moral ethos of the 1950's. Now, I find much to like about that ethos. The crime rate was low.; rates of divorce and illegitimacy were low. Children raised to adulthood by both biological parents living together in matrimony tend to have many fewer problems in life. Most Americans back then were affiliated with a church or synagogue.

A popular song captured the moral ethos of the time with the lyrics:

Love and marriage, love and marriage
Go together like a horse and carriage
This I tell ya, brother
Ya can't have one without the other

When Paul Newman was interviewed by Playboy he described the 1950's this way, "Nice girls did not sleep around. Nice guys did not ask them to."

When the interviewer asked him, "When did you get away from all that?"

Newman answered, "It is not on the record that I ever did."

Nevertheless, the moral ethos of the 1950's developed spontaneously. In various ways it was the collective American emotional response to the Great Depression, the Second World War, and the Cold War. It was not imposed by the government.

This is where Evangelicals have gone wrong. Beginning with Jerry Falwell and his Moral Majority, formed in 1979, they have tried to use government force to restore the moral ethos of the 1950's.

This has led them to develop some implausible political loyalties. In 1980 they abandoned the most sincerely Christian president the United States has probably ever had for a product of Hollywood, who was our first divorced president, who signed a law in California legalizing abortion, and who rarely attended church.

President Reagan did nothing to advance the agenda of Evangelicals, but he gave them rhetorical support. They were content with that because they were used to being laughed at.

In 2016 Evangelicals reached even lower and chose an adulterous, dishonest, foul mouthed con man who not only did not attend church, he probably could not tell you if the Book of Isaiah is in the Old Testament or the New Testament.

But he promised to overturn the Roe vs Wade decision, and he did. For that reason Evangelicals will forgive him for practicing the Seven Deadly Sins with gusto.

 

[hobelim]

1. He did not say Jesus made the law obsolete, he said Gentile Christians shouldn't have the Law put on them. He himself was an observant Jew.

"By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear." Hebrews 8:13

By saying this Paul demonstrated that either he knew nothing about what Jesus taught or it is you that doesn't know. The so called old law will never become obsolete, see Matthew 5:17-20. The only thing that became obsolete after the revelation of Jesus, about the figurative nature of words used and consequently hidden subjects of the law, was the wrong way to understand and comply with its demands, not the law itself, which is eternally contemporaneously relevant and will always be essential to the quality of life for the inhabitants of the earth for either good or evil.

. Jesus came to fulfill the Law. ..... It was given to demonstrate to man that no one is righteous. Jesus came to fulfill that and raise us to a new level of relationship with God.

To fulfill the law is to comply with its demands. The hidden purpose of God was never about demonstrating the futility of even trying to fulfill the law, DUH, (what type of fucked up god would do that) but to demonstrate, through Jesus, how easy it is. Remember? "My yoke is easy"? If you do not eat the flesh of Jesus , accept his teaching, and drink his blood, follow his example, you cannot have the life promised for fulfilling the law in you. Life is in the blood. In the doing. Jesus fulfilling the law means nothing if you don't do it. Jesus only restored the original purpose of God in giving the law through Moses which was lost to time after his death and the people turned aside from the way he originally taught to follow the law which, as Moses said, "WAS EASY."

Jesus absolutely said He is God, several times in fact and the Jews attempted to kill Him because of it. His resurrecting Himself demonstrated once and for all that He is.

Nonsense. "If you have seen me you have seen the father" just means that if you understood Jesus you will perceive God. God has no visible shape or material form. It was not a claim of divinity or being equal to God, GOD HAS NO EQUAL. You really need to learn your A, B, C's. Neither was Jesus saying that "before Abraham was born, I Am" was a claim to divinity....Jesus knew everything about Abraham because God, I AM, who existed before Abraham was with him.

Note this: By saying "But go and tell my brothers that I am ascending to my Father and your Father; my God and your God.", John 20:17, Jesus effectively eliminated any possibility that he either claimed to be or thought of himself as God. Thats the way the cookie crumbles.

Deal with it

Scripture citations, please. Not generalities, they don't fly.

Been there done that. What then?

 

[hadit]

"By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear." Hebrews 8:13

By saying this Paul demonstrated that either he knew nothing about what Jesus taught or it is you that doesn't know. The so called old law will never become obsolete, see Matthew 5:17-20. The only thing that became obsolete after the revelation of Jesus about the figurative nature of words used and consequently hidden subjects of the law was the wrong way to understand and comply with its demands, not the law itself, which is eternally relevant and will always be essential to the quality of life for the inhabitants of the earth for either good or evil.

The new covenant does not obsolete the law. They are different things, because the first covenant was that God's people were to obey the Law and they would be His people. As Jesus said, He came to fulfill the law, not destroy it. The covenant is God's deal with His people, and that has changed. I don't know if you noticed, but Gentiles are now welcome too.

To fulfill the law is to comply with its demands. The hidden purpose of God was never about demonstrating the futility of even trying to fulfill the law but to demonstrate, through Jesus, how easy it is. Remember? My yoke is easy"?

Jesus raised to bar to demonstrate how impossible it is to follow the Law, remember?

Matthew 5:
21 “You have heard that it was said to those [d]of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother [e]without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’[f] shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, [g]‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of [h]hell fire.

27 “You have heard that it was said [i]to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Yes, His yoke is easy and His burden is light, because the Spirit is within us all the time, re-assuring us and guiding us, unlike the Law where you had to remember all on your own each and every thing it required, then had to bring sacrifice every time you broke even the smallest part of it.

If you do not eat the flesh of Jesus , accept his teaching, and drink his blood, follow his example, you cannot have the life promised for fulfilling the law in you. Life is in the blood. In the doing. Jesus fulfilling the law means nothing if you don't

Tell that to the thief on the cross, who walked into paradise with Jesus that day, despite no baptism, no communion, no catechism or anything like that.

Nonsense. If you have seen me you have seen the father just means that if you understood Jesus you will perceive God. It was not a claim to divinity, neither was Jesus saying that before Abraham was born I am.

Ah, but you do not understand the Jewish mind. They knew absolutely that Jesus was claiming to be God when He said, "before Abraham was, I AM". I AM is God's own name for Himself, and they were so angry they wanted to stone Him. That's not the only place, however:

Matthew 4
5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:

‘He shall give His angels charge over you,’
and,

‘In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’ ”
7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not [a]tempt the Lord your God.’ ”

Matthew 9
9 So He got into a boat, crossed over, and came to His own city. 2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”

3 And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, “This Man blasphemes!”

4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’? 6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”

Who but God can forgive sins? Certainly not any of us.

By saying "But go and tell my brothers that I am ascending to my Father and your Father; my God and your God.", John 20:17, Jesus effectively eliminated any possibility that he either claimed to be or thought of himself as God. Thats the way the cookie crumbles.

Phillippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it [b]robbery to be equal with God, 7 but [c]made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Tell me, why would God give Jesus a name that was greater than His own name? Answer, He would not.

Been there done that. What then?

And answered.

 

[BULLDOG]

Because there are a gazillion different perceptions of God. You have the arguments of a child.

And you are free to choose any of those perceptions you like, or come up with your own. You, using the bible, have failed to convince me that your perception is true and accurate. You have no idea how easily I could be convinced. I would love to believe in a loving god that cares about and is looking out for me personally.

 

[BULLDOG]

Yeah...........YOU DON'T care if the bible is correct or not, THAT'S WHY YOU DID NOT RESPOND BY SAYING THAT OTHERS ARE IMPOSING THEIR FREE WILL UPON YOUR FREE WILL.
What? Are you the victim? Then in the next breath you state that you can refuse the choices of others. Which is it............are you being imposed upon .......or......do you refuse to be imposed upon? Ever hear of the law of the excluded middle? I have never seen a fascist that is not A VICTIM of some type.......poor little liberals. Lets burn all the bibles and intern those evil Christians.

Logic and you are not close relatives?

Yes, many are working hard to impose their religious beliefs on others. Burn Bibles? Seems you're the ones wanting to burn books.

 

[hadit]

And you are free to choose any of those perceptions you like, or come up with your own. You, using the bible, have failed to convince me that your perception is true and accurate. You have no idea how easily I could be convinced. I would love to believe in a loving god that cares about and is looking out for me personally.

Not to get too deep into your personal life, but how far have you taken this with God Himself? Have you simply laid it all out before Him with the total willingness to believe? I know about Thomas and Jesus saying, "Blessed are those who believe and have not seen", but I remember that He also showed Thomas the scars on his body.

 

[hobelim]

The new covenant does not obsolete the law. They are different things, because the first covenant was that God's people were to obey the Law and they would be His people. As Jesus said, He came to fulfill the law, not destroy it. The covenant is God's deal with His people, and that has changed. I don't know if you noticed, but Gentiles are now welcome too.

Nothing has changed. The law was given as a light to the nations from the beginning. You don't know what you are talking about. At the time of Jesus the hidden meaning of the law was being held back, kept secret, from even the Jewish laity. Do you want proof? Thats why Jesus said, "No one lights a candle and then hides it under a bushel but puts it on the lamp stand so that everyone in the room can see." This was a direct reference to the meaning of the Law being hidden from everyone except a few, what Jesus saw as a failure to obey a direct command of God, for the Law, the law of Moses, to be for the benefit, edification, of all people of every nation

Tell that to the thief on the cross, who walked into paradise with Jesus that day, despite no baptism, no communion, no catechism or anything like that.

Exactly. "no baptism, no communion, no catechism or anything like that" I forgive people for their sins all the time. Don't you?

Ah, but you do not understand the Jewish mind. They knew absolutely that Jesus was claiming to be God when He said, "before Abraham was, I AM". I AM is God's own name for Himself, and they were so angry they wanted to stone Him.

Nonsense. That was what his philosophical enemies claimed to discredit his teaching as the drunken hubris of a raving lunatic because even in the first century, exactly like now, anyone who thinks of themselves as a god is certifiably insane. Coo coo for coco puffs toys in the attic crazy

You bring the name of Jesus into disrepute among intelligent people by perpetuating this bullshit

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God

There is only one God. He has no visible shape or material form. He has no equal, and there is no other God in existence either above or below him. Would you consider it robbery for Jesus to claim equality with God? Or blasphemy? Do you claim equality with God as Paul suggested by saying, "let this mind be in you which was also in Jesus Christ" claiming to be equal with God?

Is that what hooked you? Made you a believer? the idea of being equal to God? You damn fool.

Paul was an actor and lying fraud. The enemy. You have been beguiled by the Nachash.

Didn't you ever read about Adam and Eve and the talking serpent? Never understood the lessons of the distant past or the warning intended to be understood by the children of Hebrew nomads?

Damn.

 

[BULLDOG]

Not to get too deep into your personal life, but how far have you taken this with God Himself? Have you simply laid it all out before Him with the total willingness to believe? I know about Thomas and Jesus saying, "Blessed are those who believe and have not seen", but I remember that He also showed Thomas the scars on his body.

I could easily been convinced. I considered myself a devout Christian most of my life until I retired and began an in depth study of the Bible. I figured more knowledge would make me a better Christian. The quickest way I know of to turn a Christian into an agnostic, and then an atheiest is to have them study the bible.

 

[Clyde 154]

You can start at the beginning - mud made man and rib made woman.

You presented NO FACTS. If the bile is wrong you should be capable of presenting the facts as to how mankind came from dead matter (through the use of the scientific method, which proves facts).........The Bible is correct in declaring that man came from the elements common to the laws of physics, and then women was created by taking the DNA from man and creating WOMAN.....which literally means from man came woman. Prove through your FACTS how the first man came into existence and then procreated from one gender.......if the bible is wrong concerning the facts available that are observable, reproducible, and consistent in describing man's creation. It should be no problem to present the simple facts that refute the Genesis narrative.

Theories are not based upon facts or they would be called LAWS, not theories, hypotheses, conjectures, assumptions, based upon what is observable today. The Scientific Method falsifies this type of supposed science every time the theory of abiogenesis is placed to the test of creating life void of pre-existing life. Science proved, in the 19th century that life can only be reproduced via procreation from pre-existing life within the same species. Louis Pasteur proved that human life could not have possibly EVOLVED from YOUR MUD........as its your science that declares that life was created from just 2 gases, (Hydrogen an Helium).........if left alone to evolve over 13 billion years.

Now who is it that believes in mud people......SOCK PUPPET? Your science declares man came from STAR DUST. Prove it.

Are you suggesting that man's body is not constructed from elements common to our earth? Carbon, Water...etc., IN FACT all life on earth carries the same DNA to an extent......why? Because all life on earth is CARBON BASED..........can you spell, MUD. Dirt and Water? LMAO


The real question you can't answer as does the Book of Genesis.......who breathed LIFE/SPIRIT/SOUL into the first man if not God? Nature can't provide the answer.......yet you declare the scriptures are not truthful, because you don't agree with the prima facie evidences?

The Genesis account of creation and reproduction of life completely agree with the LAWS of PHYSICS confirmed by Louis Pasteur via use of the Scientific Method. Life can only be reproduced by pre-existing life..........within the same species. Science totally agrees with Genesis 1:24 .......life on earth can only be produced/reproduced from pre-existing life within the same species.

Truth can be proven through Prima Facie evidences. Thus......based upon the prima facie evidenece of Genesis agreeing with Science as applied by Louis Pasteur........I believe the Bible is based upon truth.

Its you that can't explain how the Scientific Method falsifies LIFE evolving from dead matter........each and every time that such experimentation is applied to your theories and hypotheses. Creation has never been falsified by the Scientific Method.

There has never been a successful Scientific Experiment using the Scientific Method of Observation, Reproducible, with consistency with every application/experiment.......that proves life on earth came from dead matter + energy.......STAR DUST.

If the scriptures are wrong..............explain how life created itself from nothing, then the resulting STAR DUST........evolved into mankind 3.5 billion years ago. Who was it that observed life being created 3 billion years ago, I would like to meet them? If its not observed........at best you can't declare something is a fact.............but you can declare that your theories are correct based upon the prima facie evidence that are observable. Again............you have presented no facts, just AD HOMINEM BS. You can't explain.....you don't have answers, just more questions. Simply refute Louis Pasteur's experiment from the 19th century. If you can't..........you presented nothing but ad hominem rhetoric.

 

[hadit]

Nothing has changed. The law was given as a light to the nations from the beginning. You don't know what you are talking about. At the time of Jesus the hidden meaning of the law was being held back, kept secret, from even the Jewish laity. Do you want proof? Thats why Jesus said, "No one lights a candle and then hides it under a bushel but puts it on the lamp stand so that everyone in the room can see." This was a direct reference to the meaning of the Law being hidden from everyone except a few, what Jesus saw as a failure to obey a direct command of God, for the Law, the law of Moses, to be for the benefit, edification, of all people of every nation

IOW, Jesus came to fulfill the Law, just as He said He did. He came to bring a new covenant as well. You do realize, don't you, that the covenant and the Law are not the same thing? The fact that you confuse the two brings your whole diatribe into disrepute.

Exactly. "no baptism, no communion, no catechism or anything like that" I forgive people for their sins all the time. Don't you?

You have no power to forgive someone of their sin against God or against another person. Can you forgive Hitler for the deaths of millions of people? God can, and Jesus forgave the man he was talking to, something the Jews called blasphemy, because ONLY God can forgive sin. You, OTOH, cannot.

Nonsense. That was what his philosophical enemies claimed to discredit his teaching as the drunken hubris of a raving lunatic because even in the first century, exactly like now, anyone who thinks of themselves as a god is certifiably insane. Coo coo for coco puffs toys in the attic crazy

Nope, He said it Himself, then proved it. That's what made the religious leaders of His day so crazy mad at Him. You have to understand who the people around Jesus were and how they thought if you want to understand Scripture.

You bring the name of Jesus into disrepute among intelligent people by perpetuating this bullshit

I'm simply repeating what He said about Himself. If you don't like it, take it up with Him.

There is only one God. He has no visible shape or material form. He has no equal, and there is no other God in existence either above or below him. Would you consider it robbery for Jesus to claim equality with God? Or blasphemy?

Nope, because He is God, and was God in human form. That is why He didn't consider it robbery to be equal to God, because he was. Remember as well, though, that He humbled Himself. It was not done to Him.

Do you claim equality with God as Paul suggested by saying, "let this mind be in you which was also in Jesus Christ" claiming to be equal with God?

Of course not. Paul was emphasizing that, even though Christ knew He was God incarnate, He humbled Himself even to death on the cross. THAT was what Paul was urging the Church to copy, Christ's humility. All of that is very clear when you read the whole passage. Paul was agreeing with Jesus and always did.

Is that what hooked you? Made you a believer? the idea of being equal to God? You damn fool.

That's pretty foolish if any of us actually believed that. The fact that you have to project something onto me calls your entire diatribe into disrepute.

Paul was an actor and lying fraud. The enemy. You have been beguiled by the Nachash.

Really? On what grounds? You've certainly not shown me any.

Didn't you ever read about Adam and Eve and the talking serpent? Never understood the lessons of the distant past or the warning intended to be understood by the children of Hebrew nomads?

Damn.

Of course, I've read about them. What is your point? You know, for someone who claims Paul disagreed with Jesus all over the place, you have yet to show me where he does.

 

[hadit]

I could easily been convinced. I considered myself a devout Christian most of my life until I retired and began an in depth study of the Bible. I figured more knowledge would make me a better Christian. The quickest way I know of to turn a Christian into an agnostic, and then an atheiest is to have them study the bible.

I have studied the Bible, and it increased my faith. I've taught the Bible. But, like I said, how far have you taken it with God? Have you just laid it all out there and asked your questions? I'm talking one on one, just told Him exactly what you think.

 

[ding]

And you are free to choose any of those perceptions you like, or come up with your own. You, using the bible, have failed to convince me that your perception is true and accurate. You have no idea how easily I could be convinced. I would love to believe in a loving god that cares about and is looking out for me personally.

I'm not trying to convince you. Be miserable.

It's not my job to convince you. My job is to counter you.