Question for Christians

[zaangalewa]

... The Church has become a refuge for those with no friends. The weak, the ignorant and the misfits. Or people with failing or loveless marriages. It gives them something else to focus on so they can deal with the train wreck that their lives are.

So you have a lot of friends, your are strong, educated and beautiful. You are happily married and full of love. And that's why you are here and attack people, who do not share your form not to believe in god.

 

[Bonzi]

... The Church has become a refuge for those with no friends. The weak, the ignorant and the misfits. Or people with failing or loveless marriages. It gives them something else to focus on so they can deal with the train wreck that their lives are.

So you have a lot of friends, your are strong, educated and beautiful. You are happily married and full of love. And that's why you are here and attack people, who do not share your form not to believe in god.

I'm just a truth teller, not an attacker.
That being said, there are exceptions always, and by truth I mean as I see it

 

[emilynghiem]

Apologists, they have an excuse for everything.

Yes. Much like a repairman has an "excuse" for everything. He can explain why refilling windshield wiper fluid will not fix the brakes.

In the gospels Jesus heals the physically ill. Go and sin no more. Are you trying to say the ill are sinful and or have demons?

Dear Penelope
Unforgivness is a sin. And yes we all have things we can't forgive since we are human
and are designed with defense mechanisms such as fear and learning from experience to avoid danger or risks. This is what it means for Christian to say all humans are sinner,
we are not perfect in our forgiveness, and there are going to be things we refuse to forgive because we are too hurt or too afraid. We are going to fall short of perfect love that God represents. None of us is that selfless that we can forgive and understand all things that happen.

*Some* illnesses are not able to heal because of unforgiveness or demonic blockages.
Not all, but SOME rely on removing the source of unforgiveness emotional blocks first,
before the person can be healed.

1. if someone can't forgive their parents for abuse, and keep drinking and smoking
to harbor and suppress the resentment, that can cause both mental addiction and physical diseases.
These cannot be fully healed if the person keeps holding onto the resentment fueling the addiction
and blocking their mind and body from healing.

it's not their fault they were abused by others, but the unforgiveness
is like "swallowing poison while waiting for the other person to die"
it harms the victim and prolongs the sickness.
this is how child abusers take their own abuse and pass it on to other victims.
so they infect other people with self-blame and loathing that keeps them stuck.

forgiveness can break this cycle and that's why spiritual healing or similar methods (such as AA mixed
with either Christian faith or Buddhist meditation) has worked for people I know.
the common key to healing and recovery is forgiveness.

2. and it's the demonic influence that most often obstructs that forgiveness
with anger, blame, jealousy, resentment, fear, any number of negative ills
that keep the mind stuck where it is. so the "demonic" energy can keep
feeding on the NEGATIVE energy like a parasite invading a host.
it's like rats or roaches wanting to keep feeding on garbage so they don't want the
rotten food to be cleaned up but to keep piles of it around so they can feast on it.

If you want to read two observations of the use of exorcism to confront
"demonic" voices or personalities in schizophrenic patients, I recommend
"Glimpses of the Devil" by Scott Peck.
Peck did not believe these "demonic obsessions" were real but just mental delusions
from chemical imbalances and dysfunctions in the brains of his patients.
He made a bet with his friend, the priest Malachi Martin the Exorcist was based on,
that as a scientist, he could prove that this demonic nonsense was all mental delusion and hallucination.

So the priest sent 2 patients to Peck to observe, to see if this would change his mind.
Within the second interview, after one of the patients verbally attacked Peck
with knowledge of his unconscious memories and fears, he was convinced
this had to be psychic or spiritual forces because the patients had no conscious knowledge of Peck's past.
From there, the patterns of these "demonic" forces escalated and followed
the same methods and stages that the priest had been teaching and practicing for years
to deal with sick patients suffering from 'demonic obsessions and voices" or personalities taking over their own mind and will.

Peck was able to follow the process and see one patient completely
healed of the demonic personality and voices, where she returned to normal,
completed the treatment that she had previously rejected because of her 'demonic rebellion'
that had rendered her dysfunctional and unable to comply or receive any help.
She even gave up religion and turned to medical science because she was intrigued
by getting her free will and reason restored, where she could follow the same "scientific method"
that Dr. Peck used to study her condition, apply therapy, check if it worked, then take more steps until
all the problems were solved. She decided to study some field of medicine and lost interest in religion.

For the other patient, the influence was not completely removed, and the damage and diseased
conditions were too far gone from years of abuse, from self-destruction all her adult life,
that she died of other complications. Peck concluded that the deliverance to remove the
demonic influence obstructing and hijacking the person's mind had to be done EARLIER on.
So I compare it to cancer, that the earlier the treatment the better chances of success before
it "metastasizes" and fully invades the whole person.

My atheist friend who underwent this procedure also complained it "felt like rape"
it hurt like hell because it is like chemotherapy killing off all the good and bad cells together,
scraping out all your insides, and starting over. So all the attached memories and
feelings you had about the abuse and addictions that followed, all that gets SCRAPED out of you.

But after this is removed, then the person regains the ability to
say NO to the demonic impulses that can no longer hijack their will.
They are able to choose to block out and not let those negative influences
take over. So forgiving the negatives takes away their fuel source.

3. Penelope Not All illnesses are caused by demons.
Not all sicknesses are caused by biohazardous pathogens as Ebola is.

It's just that when you have a case of Ebola, you cannot treat it as you would a common cold.
There has to be a special antidote that especially kills the Ebola Virus or the person dies.
The sooner you remove it the better chances of living and recovering.

With demonic sicknesses, if there is such a demonic "virus" causing the sickness
the normal human immune system may not be strong enough to fight it off alone.
That's why the spiritual healing ministers pray to IDENTIFY what type of virus
or infection is causing the sickness. And treat and remove that first. then the person can heal naturally.

So for normal colds, no we do not need mass surgery to remove the cause
like we might for cancerous tumors that have to be cut out.

With spiritual and mental ills, it depends on the cause, which determines the cure.

What we call mental illness today was called demons in ancient times.

And who of us is to stay it is indeed NOT caused by demons ??

Nobody can say that. We simply do not know.

You cannot put a demon under a microscope.

Yes and no yiostheoy
1. Science is getting closer to being able to measure the changes in the brain, which can show the DIFFERENCE in schizophrenic patients "reporting Demonic voices or personalities" BEFORE healing prayer and AFTER the doctors report these have been REMOVED and the patients are observed as returning to normal behavior.

One friend of mine said the analog TESLA technology he studies already detects the DIFFERENCE in sound waves when people report hearing "voices". So this is like the sound wave version of "microscopes" that can prove there is "noise on the line" even if the average human ear cannot hear or detect it.

2. Other doctors have used brain scans to show differences with impaired vs normal brains , but this is still being developed before it can be applied to the process Scott Peck wrote about in his Book "Glimpses of the Devil"

YT: Peck seemed to AGREE with you that the observation of him and his team of "demonic activity and spiritual process" was FAITH based; but he found that the Symptoms, Changes, and Pattern of outward behavior that CAN be observed and documented ARE distinct and methodical enough to use for medical diagnosis and treatment plans in stages. Because what he and his team saw and confirmed "followed a set pattern" he did conclude that the Scientific Method can be applied to this process, to diagnosis the presence of "demonic obsession" , the stages of removing these negative signs and symptoms, and the final stages and proof that the removal is completed and the person is safe from relapse (or if they are not fully healed and are still at risk of relapse)

Peck would agree with you largely, where he estimated that 5% remained spiritual and faith based of the phenomena and process he witnessed and confirmed with a team who saw the same things, but the other 95% was observable behavior signs and symptoms which can be documented through medical and scientific methods of therapy already used in treatment.

yiostheoy even when Peck's whole team witnessed the same demonic behavior and voices, of these "alternate personalities" that manifested as Nonhuman and spat out intimate knowledge of Dr. Peck's personal inner issues and "ego" that the patients did not have knowledge of or access to, even when they all witnessed the same snakelike contortions and changes to the patients face to be Nonhuman demonic persona (Peck mentioned one video clip did catch a profile of the patients face when it flipped), this is still "faith based" - if you believe a team of people trying to cure a patient of demonic behavior "all hallucinated the same things collectively at the same time."

YT it's like studies on DREAMS.

How do we know we or others had the dreams or nightmares we report? They are faith based.
But science can measure when the brain is in dream states. Patients often report intense nightmares in between dosage changes for depression or sleep medication that can cause spikes in activity or intensity including "night terrors."

We don't have to PROVE the patients really had these or not to OBSERVE if changing the meds improves their condition and stops the reports or SIGNS of disruption.

Btw YT I personally know friends who have done or seen this exorcism done, where they confirm seeing the demon presence . One friend who is not Christian and uses other means has seen black cloudy smoke puffs come out of people during healing. Another who is Christian has seen the snakes and head spin around and snake tongues and satanic demonic faces verbally fighting the healer not to be removed from the host. I figure these phenomena are on the level of seeing dreams that are "real visions" but exist between alternate states of reality.

3. Lastly yiostheoy mental illness and demonic energy are not "either/or" - one is a subset of the other.

Within the field, causes or cases of mental illness, the energy or influences called "demonic" are a special FACTOR which may or may not be present.

Some cases, such as the severe Schizophrenia that Dr. Peck reported DEPEND on addressing and "removing demons by exorcism" BEFORE the patient can be helped, treated and saved, and Dr. MacNutt also has reported curing in his book on "Healing" that is standard textbook in accredited seminaries and established authority on teaching the different types of prayer and how exorcism only applies in special situations requiring it.

But you are right yiostheoy
It is "equally incorrect" to assume that "all mental or physical ills are caused by demons"
Which Dr. MacNutt warns against in his book on HEALING as well.


Both Doctors who practiced and have studied the effects on healing people of Schizophrenia demon voices, personalities and behavior that otherwise rendered patients incurable would *agree with you on many points*, and they still urged that this lifesaving process be researched further and used to help diagnose, treat and save more people where medicine alone cannot cure the cause or symptoms, but spiritual healing can.

Thank you yiostheoy
Your criticisms are not against but within the responsible practice and diagnosis of spiritual healing, are are important to recognize if this method is going to be accurately researched and applied. It does not negate, but confirms the same warnings and teachings as doctors in this field who have used it to treat and save the minds and lives of people so sick, from spiritual causes on a deeper internal level, they couldn't be cured without addressing that first. Then the mind and body could be treated after the spiritual causes were resolved first. We don't have to prove the spiritual reports are true, in order to prove the CHANGES in effects, before and after successful therapy treatment. So the scientific method can still be applied even if the patients reports of what they hear and see during the process remain faith based like the contents of our dreams we can't prove to other people either.

 

[zaangalewa]

... A god that wants us to obey a book? No, not real.

A book is only a data repository. You can read something and totally misunderstand what's written there. You need a key. That's why we have also monks, nuns, priests, abbots, abbess, bishops and theologians who you are able to ask, if you don't understand what you read. Lots of lay people and clerics wrote books too during a long row of centuries. If you still do not understand then ask the Holy Spirit. But do not ask godless Islamists or supporters of abortion for example. Very bad bible interpreters. They do not even know how to interpret the simple 4 words "Thou shalt not kill". It will cause problems - and not only spiritual problems - if someone obeys not in this 4 words, whether someone reads the bible or not. And it are not the only 4 words of the bible. It has 5 words ... and even some more. I never counted them all. Perhaps it are even six or seven or ...

 

[emilynghiem]

... The Church has become a refuge for those with no friends. The weak, the ignorant and the misfits. Or people with failing or loveless marriages. It gives them something else to focus on so they can deal with the train wreck that their lives are.

So you have a lot of friends, your are strong, educated and beautiful. You are happily married and full of love. And that's why you are here and attack people, who do not share your form not to believe in god.

I'm just a truth teller, not an attacker.
That being said, there are exceptions always, and by truth I mean as I see it

Dear Bonzi
If you are a truth teller by conscience, I trust your judgment to review what Scott Peck wrote of his observations before and after he experimented with spiritual healing deliverance/exorcism prayer. He also was biased toward secular science and didn't believe in satanic or demonic entities as separate external influences outside the patient but delusions' or hallucinations in their sick dysfunctional minds. Although peck changed his mind after what he observed, his bias remained science oriented which you can read in his book where he advocated for formal medical research knowing the limitations.

I would like to see if you would come to the same conclusion he did: that although part of the experience and process remains faith based since you can't prove to others what you see feel or experience "spiritually" -- at least the observable changes and patterns of symptoms and behavior can be documented and medically researched to show rates of improvement or recovery, and the sociological statistics can be collected to show a "correlation" between
* Not going through forgiveness and healing prayer with the rates of sick people staying sick with no progress in recovery
* Full complete forgiveness and healing prayer process with the rates of successful recovery which can be documented by medical doctor's and studies
* And "partial" reports of relative levels of forgiveness and healing with some progress or "partial" improvement in conditions. I have friends in more advanced partial states who remain nontheist and don't believe or adopt the full Christian approach but use Buddhism and "forgiveness' to varying degrees.

Bonzi to make sure the studies are not all biased and skewed by Christian's who already believe and pray for forgiveness and healing, it's critical to include a control group of people who don't believe and don't want it to work!

So let's form 3 teams, and compare the stats.

If you and yiostheoy, and other secular Skeptics who require replicated scientific studies of the process or to see it happen in real time before understanding it, want to be in control group A for agnostics atheists and anti-theists, we can have groups for B who will work with the forgiveness part of the process but without Christian healing prayer, and group C who go full force into the exorcism and intercessory prayer in Christ Jesus.

If only group C can help and cure severe schizophrenia, drug and sex addicts, and other mental or criminal illness, and the other approaches cannot achieve the same rates of healing and recovery, then I'd recommend that treatment and therapy to doctors and patients.

I am happy to launch a 10 million dollar bet that Christian spiritual healing will be demonstrated as working with science and medicine not against them, to diagnose treat manage and or cure more people of more ills than medicine alone can help. For this cause, I will gladly ask help of Believers and Healers to raise 5 million to research and prove how spiritual healing saves lives.

And to make the bet possible, I'll also ask skeptics to raise 5 million to prove Christianity is false propaganda , prayers do not work , and it's at most a "placebo" effect.

Whoever wins gets all the money ($10 million goal) raised to go into the charities causes or education their team supports. (I predict this could split into 3 teams raising 2-5 million each, where 6-10 would go into an agreed solution while the other 2-5 remains contested and stuck over bias and placebo or skewed reporting etc. because subjective studies aren't perfect and neither are ppl fully forgiving if there are flaws or biases )

So if Christian spiritual healing wins, i ask the money to go into converting mental health and prison programs into medical facilities to diagnose treat manage and cure criminal illness as well as other diseases, so we can afford universal care for more people with the resources we have!

Ready to take this challenge?

If skeptics and Christian rejectors win or tie (I am guessing they will tie because of faith based experiences involved that can't be proven scientifically) one of my agnostics friends has asked help to set up social assistance and medical outreach for nonchristians to work with Christians instead of being segregated and attacking each other. That's also a great cause! So I'll ask other friends and leaders of Humanists of Houston and Ray Hills prison show to set up the solutions that people can bet on for winning donation money.

Everyone wins regardless if you are biased toward group a b or c.
How about it?

A public challenge to research if Christian spiritual healing is the answer to dealing with criminal illness, to curing causes of drug abuse and addiction, to preventing rape/murder/mass shootings by diagnosing sick threats of deadly conditions in advance before someone kills or harms others, and to universal health care using existing resources and facilities we already waste on failed criminal justice and mental health systems that don't cure the causes.

What shall we name this project?

 

[zaangalewa]

... I'm just a truth teller, not an attacker. That being said, there are exceptions always, and by truth I mean as I see it

Hmm ... hmm hmm ... hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm ... sorry.

 

[Taz]

... A god that wants us to obey a book? No, not real.

A book is only a data repository. You can read something and totally misunderstand what's written there. You need a key. That's why we have also monks, nuns, priests, abbots, abbess, bishops and theologians who you are able to ask, if you don't understand what you read. Lots of lay people and clerics wrote books too during a long row of centuries. If you still do not understand then ask the Holy Spirit. But do not ask godless Islamists or supporters of abortion for example. Very bad bible interpreters. They do not even know how to interpret the simple 4 words "Thou shalt not kill". It will cause problems - and not only spiritual problems - if someone obeys not in this 4 words, whether someone reads the bible or not. And it are not the only 4 words of the bible. It has 5 words ... and even some more. I never counted them all. Perhaps it are even six or seven or ...

There's no proof that an invisible being wants us to obey a book.

 

[emilynghiem]

... A god that wants us to obey a book? No, not real.

A book is only a data repository. You can read something and totally misunderstand what's written there. You need a key. That's why we have also monks, nuns, priests, abbots, abbess, bishops and theologians who you are able to ask, if you don't understand what you read. Lots of lay people and clerics wrote books too during a long row of centuries. If you still do not understand then ask the Holy Spirit. But do not ask godless Islamists or supporters of abortion for example. Very bad bible interpreters. They do not even know how to interpret the simple 4 words "Thou shalt not kill". It will cause problems - and not only spiritual problems - if someone obeys not in this 4 words, whether someone reads the bible or not. And it are not the only 4 words of the bible. It has 5 words ... and even some more. I never counted them all. Perhaps it are even six or seven or ...

There's no proof that an invisible being wants us to obey a book.

Dear Taz it's not the book but the laws and meaning represented in the contents.

The meaning of the Bible is Justice. The process and history humanity goes through to progress from "retributive justice" in the OT causing war and death to the "restorative Justice" that Christ Jesus represents in the NT bringing healing and rebirth of humanity in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace. Jesus Christ represents "Peace and Justice" or "Justice with Mercy" that saves humanity from wrongs and wars from the past that otherwise repeat in retributive cycles if we don't learn "forgiveness" and receive correction to prevent such ills and destruction.

That's the meaning which explains what all humanity is going through to seek freedom peace and "Equal Justice Under Law" which is the meaning of Jesus as Lord of all

 

[Taz]

... A god that wants us to obey a book? No, not real.

A book is only a data repository. You can read something and totally misunderstand what's written there. You need a key. That's why we have also monks, nuns, priests, abbots, abbess, bishops and theologians who you are able to ask, if you don't understand what you read. Lots of lay people and clerics wrote books too during a long row of centuries. If you still do not understand then ask the Holy Spirit. But do not ask godless Islamists or supporters of abortion for example. Very bad bible interpreters. They do not even know how to interpret the simple 4 words "Thou shalt not kill". It will cause problems - and not only spiritual problems - if someone obeys not in this 4 words, whether someone reads the bible or not. And it are not the only 4 words of the bible. It has 5 words ... and even some more. I never counted them all. Perhaps it are even six or seven or ...

There's no proof that an invisible being wants us to obey a book.

Dear Taz it's not the book but the laws and meaning represented in the contents.

The meaning of the Bible is Justice. The process and history humanity goes through to progress from "retributive justice" in the OT causing war and death to the "restorative Justice" that Christ Jesus represents in the NT bringing healing and rebirth of humanity in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace. Jesus Christ represents "Peace and Justice" or "Justice with Mercy" that saves humanity from wrongs and wars from the past that otherwise repeat in retributive cycles if we don't learn "forgiveness" and receive correction to prevent such ills and destruction.

That's the meaning which explains what all humanity is going through to seek freedom peace and "Equal Justice Under Law" which is the meaning of Jesus as Lord of all

Wow! That was convoluted, even for you! But thanks for keeping it short!

The bible is a book written by men that has nothing to do with what a possible invisible being might want. Just the first book of science fiction. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[norwegen]

... A god that wants us to obey a book? No, not real.

A book is only a data repository. You can read something and totally misunderstand what's written there. You need a key. That's why we have also monks, nuns, priests, abbots, abbess, bishops and theologians who you are able to ask, if you don't understand what you read. Lots of lay people and clerics wrote books too during a long row of centuries. If you still do not understand then ask the Holy Spirit. But do not ask godless Islamists or supporters of abortion for example. Very bad bible interpreters. They do not even know how to interpret the simple 4 words "Thou shalt not kill". It will cause problems - and not only spiritual problems - if someone obeys not in this 4 words, whether someone reads the bible or not. And it are not the only 4 words of the bible. It has 5 words ... and even some more. I never counted them all. Perhaps it are even six or seven or ...

There's no proof that an invisible being wants us to obey a book.

Dear Taz it's not the book but the laws and meaning represented in the contents.

The meaning of the Bible is Justice. The process and history humanity goes through to progress from "retributive justice" in the OT causing war and death to the "restorative Justice" that Christ Jesus represents in the NT bringing healing and rebirth of humanity in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace. Jesus Christ represents "Peace and Justice" or "Justice with Mercy" that saves humanity from wrongs and wars from the past that otherwise repeat in retributive cycles if we don't learn "forgiveness" and receive correction to prevent such ills and destruction.

That's the meaning which explains what all humanity is going through to seek freedom peace and "Equal Justice Under Law" which is the meaning of Jesus as Lord of all

Wow! That was convoluted, even for you! But thanks for keeping it short!

The bible is a book written by men that has nothing to do with what a possible invisible being might want. Just the first book of science fiction. Nothing more, nothing less.

Actually, the Bible has much to do with what a possible invisible being might want.

 

[Taz]

... A god that wants us to obey a book? No, not real.

A book is only a data repository. You can read something and totally misunderstand what's written there. You need a key. That's why we have also monks, nuns, priests, abbots, abbess, bishops and theologians who you are able to ask, if you don't understand what you read. Lots of lay people and clerics wrote books too during a long row of centuries. If you still do not understand then ask the Holy Spirit. But do not ask godless Islamists or supporters of abortion for example. Very bad bible interpreters. They do not even know how to interpret the simple 4 words "Thou shalt not kill". It will cause problems - and not only spiritual problems - if someone obeys not in this 4 words, whether someone reads the bible or not. And it are not the only 4 words of the bible. It has 5 words ... and even some more. I never counted them all. Perhaps it are even six or seven or ...

There's no proof that an invisible being wants us to obey a book.

Dear Taz it's not the book but the laws and meaning represented in the contents.

The meaning of the Bible is Justice. The process and history humanity goes through to progress from "retributive justice" in the OT causing war and death to the "restorative Justice" that Christ Jesus represents in the NT bringing healing and rebirth of humanity in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace. Jesus Christ represents "Peace and Justice" or "Justice with Mercy" that saves humanity from wrongs and wars from the past that otherwise repeat in retributive cycles if we don't learn "forgiveness" and receive correction to prevent such ills and destruction.

That's the meaning which explains what all humanity is going through to seek freedom peace and "Equal Justice Under Law" which is the meaning of Jesus as Lord of all

Wow! That was convoluted, even for you! But thanks for keeping it short!

The bible is a book written by men that has nothing to do with what a possible invisible being might want. Just the first book of science fiction. Nothing more, nothing less.

Actually, the Bible has much to do with what a possible invisible being might want.

Except that it reads like it knows what the invisible being wants.

 

[norwegen]

A book is only a data repository. You can read something and totally misunderstand what's written there. You need a key. That's why we have also monks, nuns, priests, abbots, abbess, bishops and theologians who you are able to ask, if you don't understand what you read. Lots of lay people and clerics wrote books too during a long row of centuries. If you still do not understand then ask the Holy Spirit. But do not ask godless Islamists or supporters of abortion for example. Very bad bible interpreters. They do not even know how to interpret the simple 4 words "Thou shalt not kill". It will cause problems - and not only spiritual problems - if someone obeys not in this 4 words, whether someone reads the bible or not. And it are not the only 4 words of the bible. It has 5 words ... and even some more. I never counted them all. Perhaps it are even six or seven or ...

There's no proof that an invisible being wants us to obey a book.

Dear Taz it's not the book but the laws and meaning represented in the contents.

The meaning of the Bible is Justice. The process and history humanity goes through to progress from "retributive justice" in the OT causing war and death to the "restorative Justice" that Christ Jesus represents in the NT bringing healing and rebirth of humanity in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace. Jesus Christ represents "Peace and Justice" or "Justice with Mercy" that saves humanity from wrongs and wars from the past that otherwise repeat in retributive cycles if we don't learn "forgiveness" and receive correction to prevent such ills and destruction.

That's the meaning which explains what all humanity is going through to seek freedom peace and "Equal Justice Under Law" which is the meaning of Jesus as Lord of all

Wow! That was convoluted, even for you! But thanks for keeping it short!

The bible is a book written by men that has nothing to do with what a possible invisible being might want. Just the first book of science fiction. Nothing more, nothing less.

Actually, the Bible has much to do with what a possible invisible being might want.

Except that it reads like it knows what the invisible being wants.

Yea, so. . .

 

[Taz]

There's no proof that an invisible being wants us to obey a book.

Dear Taz it's not the book but the laws and meaning represented in the contents.

The meaning of the Bible is Justice. The process and history humanity goes through to progress from "retributive justice" in the OT causing war and death to the "restorative Justice" that Christ Jesus represents in the NT bringing healing and rebirth of humanity in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace. Jesus Christ represents "Peace and Justice" or "Justice with Mercy" that saves humanity from wrongs and wars from the past that otherwise repeat in retributive cycles if we don't learn "forgiveness" and receive correction to prevent such ills and destruction.

That's the meaning which explains what all humanity is going through to seek freedom peace and "Equal Justice Under Law" which is the meaning of Jesus as Lord of all

Wow! That was convoluted, even for you! But thanks for keeping it short!

The bible is a book written by men that has nothing to do with what a possible invisible being might want. Just the first book of science fiction. Nothing more, nothing less.

Actually, the Bible has much to do with what a possible invisible being might want.

Except that it reads like it knows what the invisible being wants.

Yea, so. . .

Meaning, you're wrong.

 

[DOTR]

In my own experience atheists are either (1) severely traumatized and they blame God for it or the opposite extreme (2) born with sterling silver spoons in their mouths.

I've also noticed that a lot of them had a bad relationship with their father. Often, our relationship with our father has a lot to do with how we think about God and faith.

This is true of liberals as well. A poor or absent father will tend to turn children into cynics. Feminists and lesbians especially seem to have come from a background of abuse by fathers. It warps them.
And divorce is one form of abuse.

 

[irosie91]

In my own experience atheists are either (1) severely traumatized and they blame God for it or the opposite extreme

It's funny how angry they can be at a God that does not exist. Or at believe that believe in Him.
Huh?

my feeling to persons who get into the RELIGION OF CHRISTMAS SPIRIT is about the same sense I have
about people who obsess over the "world series"

Seems to make more sense to get excited about a God that gives them eternal life then a team that just wants your money and loyalty

same thing----PAY-OFF

 

[zaangalewa]

... A god that wants us to obey a book? No, not real.

A book is only a data repository. You can read something and totally misunderstand what's written there. You need a key. That's why we have also monks, nuns, priests, abbots, abbess, bishops and theologians who you are able to ask, if you don't understand what you read. Lots of lay people and clerics wrote books too during a long row of centuries. If you still do not understand then ask the Holy Spirit. But do not ask godless Islamists or supporters of abortion for example. Very bad bible interpreters. They do not even know how to interpret the simple 4 words "Thou shalt not kill". It will cause problems - and not only spiritual problems - if someone obeys not in this 4 words, whether someone reads the bible or not. And it are not the only 4 words of the bible. It has 5 words ... and even some more. I never counted them all. Perhaps it are even six or seven or ...

There's no proof that an invisible being wants us to obey a book.

If you should murder for example someone then my experience tells me this idiots will die - and you will become rich, will find a nice woman, will have nice children and your neighbors will respect you. You will grow old and you will die satisfied with the good results of your wonderful life. Perhaps some years after your death one of the idiots you forgot to murder will find out you had murdered his grandfather. About the other murderers of so many people of my families I know nothing at all. Perhaps they had a long happy life too. So: Your decision what to read and not to read - your decision what you like to understand and not to understand - your decision what to do and not to do. If you do not care about problems, you are causing for others, then you don't need god. That's true. God forces no one.



Who Am I?
by Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Who am I? They often tell me
I stepped from my cell’s confinement
Calmly, cheerfully, firmly,
Like a Squire from his country house.

Who am I? They often tell me
I used to speak to my warders
Freely and friendly and clearly,
As thought it were mine to command.

Who am I? They also tell me
I bore the days of misfortune
Equably, smilingly, proudly,
like one accustomed to win.

Am I then really that which other men tell of?
Or am I only what I myself know of myself?
Restless and longing and sick, like a bird in a cage,
Struggling for breath, as though hands were compressing my throat,
Yearning for colors, for flowers, for the voices of birds,
Thirsting for words of kindness, for neighborliness,
Tossing in expectations of great events,
Powerlessly trembling for friends at an infinite distance,
Weary and empty at praying, at thinking, at making,
Faint, and ready to say farewell to it all.

Who am I? This or the Other?
Am I one person today and tomorrow another?
Am I both at once? A hypocrite before others,
And before myself a contemptible woebegone weakling?
...

Who am I? They mock me, these lonely questions of mine.
Whoever I am, Thou knowest, dear God, I am thine!

source of the translation: Deitrich Bonhoeffer. Who Am I? by Deitrich Bonhoeffer

 

[Meriweather]

"Poor in spirit" means those who understand and comprehend how evil and worthless humankind really is.

There are a few good ones here and there.

But for the most part the entire species is a complete failure of an experiment by God.

The reason I would not call it failed is because of how much many of us enjoy life. Plus, there are so many people that have helped to make this life a great blessing.

 

[Meriweather]

Atheists are simply anti-God people. Their faith system requires the acceptance of a negative -- which is illogical according to the philosophical rules of good logic.

In my own experience atheists are either (1) severely traumatized and they blame God for it or the opposite extreme (2) born with sterling silver spoons in their mouths.

The silver spoons often feel they are self sufficient and need no one. Those traumatized often have created their own version of God (false god) and that straw god did not meet their expectations. Ultimately, they decide no belief is easier than conducting a search for our true God.

 

[ding]

Or, God loves gullible people and not the arrogant. So to hell with you!

No, but the poor in spirit are among the blessed. Poor in spirit does not mean listless, but rather is aware that he is lacking and therefore puts his trust in God. In essence, this beatitude is saying, Joyful is the person who trusts in God.

Happy is the person who trusts there is a God who is both good and loving.

Atheists: Are you joyful people (as a whole)? Are those who say God is an evil, homicidal maniac incredibly happy people in all their endeavors?

I know atheists who had a very hard religious upbringing, while not claiming joy do say they now have peace in their lives--a peace like they had never experienced before. Many atheists I know feel that God has let them down--i.e., they have no trust in God. Perhaps trust in God is what opens doors for some to more fully experience God and/or recognize His touch in their lives.

"Poor in spirit" means those who understand and comprehend how evil and worthless humankind really is.

There are a few good ones here and there.

But for the most part the entire species is a complete failure of an experiment by God.

Setting aside your interpretation of poor of spirit, I disagree that this has been a failed experiment. I don't believe you are looking at the complete picture.

Bad exists to make good better. Order from chaos so to speak. It is the extant nature of good. It's very Darwinian in that regard. It is not virtuous if you are made to be virtuous.

 

[Meriweather]

I think gullible people are the unintended consequence of Religion.

In history, the original purpose of Religion was as an opiate for the masses (roughly quoting Marx) to keep them in line politically. Hence the Pharaohs of ancient Egypt and the Caesars of Rome pronounced themselves gods or sons of gods.

I disagree. Originally, people's perceptions was that everyone had their own individual god. Or, that an entire community or nation had a god. Religion was not so much an opiate as it was a unifying factor in the community. As we see, tensions develop when more than one religion is in play. When ruler(s)/government is trying to protect everyone against warring outsiders, they simply cannot afford to have the community warring among itself.