Zone1 Question for Christians

[BULLDOG]

Were you a Catholic Christian? I ask because Catholics seem to be more aware of their Jewish roots. I found intense study of Judaism gave me a better understanding of Catholicism, of the Gospels, and of Paul. They had a different way of thinking. We don't need God to write us a better translation/interpretation of the present Bible--we can do that study on our own.

I was Baptist, and as I said before I consulted several Jewish sources in my study.

 

[BULLDOG]

Biblically speaking, God chose Paul for a reason.

From my estimation, it was because he:

1. Devoted his life to the scriptures and was well educated
2. He was a natural born leader
3. He was once an enemy of the faith.

The last one is the kicker, because as has been said, the historical fact is he used to murder Christians before his conversion.

Why the conversion? Why did he turn from killing them, to being one of them being killed? Paul had the same dedication the disciples did, which was giving up their lives for the gospel and it came from the truths and miracles they saw and heard.

Also, Paul was driven by memories of how he used to treat Christians. It was all the motivation he really needed to endure what he had to endure.

Biblically speaking, nothing in the bible says if or why God might have chosen Paul. other than claims made by Paul.

 

[Meriweather]

That's exactly what I did for so many years, until I looked up exactly what the bible says. My choice of which parts to believe, and all the little things I had to add to make it all fit weren't as easy for me at that pont.

It never occurred to me that it should all fit. When working on a puzzle, should the top right corner piece also fit in the center? The Bible is made up of over sixty-five books, all written by different authors--most of whom lived generations apart. Is there any collection of sixty-five books, covering different eras and different events, where everything fits?

What are the top three parts that do not fit that you find most bothersome?

 

[BULLDOG]

Let's keep in mind that The Church has, for about two thousand years, tried to understand God's message, as revealed MAINLY through the Torah, the teachings of Jesus, and the explications of Paul.

Brilliant scholars have examined and re-examined the texts, the translations, the cultures in place at the relevant times, and the "traditions" that have grown over the centuries. Their writings are all over the place, for those who care to look for them - especially now in the age of the Internet.

So the (Protestant) idea that any uneducated rube can pick up his (version of the) Bible, read it, and challenge the beliefs and teachings of the Church, is fatuous indeed. It is not unlike the Average Citizen who comes into a copy of the U.S. Constitution, reads it while sitting on the toilet (it's not very long), and proceeds to challenge long-established interpretations because "it doesn't make sense to him."

To be vulgar about it, it is bullshit. On this very forum, one reads people saying that they read something in the Bible and figured out that they understood something that no one else had figured out before. Gimmeafukkinbreak.

Yes. People often make up their own flavor of christianity. That's why I started this thread. What does the bible say as opposed to what so many think it might say.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm sure you think that makes sense in this discussion, but it's not the school's job to teach christianity, or any religion. Churches teach religion, and unless you can point to a church that had it's bibles removed, I'll ask you to stay on subject.

The point is people are given (or have) very little time to learn about the Bible. You said you had to wait until you retired.

 

[Meriweather]

I was Baptist, and as I said before I consulted several Jewish sources in my study.

A good start. Try hundreds, covering centuries.

 

[Meriweather]

Biblically speaking, nothing in the bible says if or why God might have chosen Paul. other than claims made by Paul.

The early Christian Church people chose Paul's letters. They also chose which four Gospels, Apostolic traditions, and books that were considered sacred in Jesus' time. In the entire Bible, people chose books they believed were inspired by God.

 

[there4eyeM]

Metaphor.

 

[Meriweather]

Yes. People often make up their own flavor of christianity

People ALWAYS choose/make up their own flavor of Christianity, of Judaism, of Buddhism, of any religion, even of atheism. People are unique and they live unique lives. Not everything in the world fits into every life the same way. We are all different, living different lives.

 

[Votto]

Yes. People often make up their own flavor of christianity. That's why I started this thread. What does the bible say as opposed to what so many think it might say.

You fail to see my point.

If you want the best historical authority, you need to go to the earliest accounts.

As I said, Paul was a peer of the disciples and interacted with them.

He was a brother.

 

[BULLDOG]

True, but the NT was written very close to the time Christ walked the earth as the documents have been dated accordingly.

At best, Mark was written under a 100 years after Christ walked the earth.

Documents written much later, therefore, are more suspect.

As for Paul, he was historically a peer of the original disciples.

Those people are the closest living historical sources we have to Christ.

Whisper something to someone next to you, and have him whisper it to the next person, an on and on til it gets allthe way around the room. Can you imagine the story you would get after 100 years?

My question has nothing to do with who wrote passages in the bible, or the time frame it was written in. My question had to do with what is actually written there. Of course, if you want to identify which writers aren't credible, we can discount those scriptures and concentate only on the credible ones. The Bible specifically says god creates people who will never have the chance to go anywhere but hell. Is that the action of a loving forgiving god?

 

[Votto]

Whisper something to someone next to you, and have him whisper it to the next person, an on and on til it gets allthe way around the room. Can you imagine the story you would get after 100 years?

My question has nothing to do with who wrote passages in the bible, or the time frame it was written in. My question had to do with what is actually written there. Of course, if you want to identify which writers aren't credible, we can discount those scriptures and concentate only on the credible ones. The Bible specifically says god creates people who will never have the chance to go anywhere but hell. Is that the action of a loving forgiving god?

As I said, Mark was written by someone who probably interacted with Christ.

It is the oldest of gospels. As such, it should be treasured much like getting someone's eyewitness testimony in court about an event.

So why did Jesus have others write about him? From my vantage point, anyone can write a Bible and tell the world how great they were, and there are many out there who did just that like Mohammad and Joseph Smith, etc. But try to get people to write about you in regards to how great you were

That is another matter entirely that would be valid in any court of law.

And the life of Christ speaks for itself as all of those who read his teachings, no matter the religion, identify him as coming from God.

I don't know anyone else like that, do you?

 

[BULLDOG]

It never occurred to me that it should all fit. When working on a puzzle, should the top right corner piece also fit in the center? The Bible is made up of over sixty-five books, all written by different authors--most of whom lived generations apart. Is there any collection of sixty-five books, covering different eras and different events, where everything fits?

What are the top three parts that do not fit that you find most bothersome?

I suppose that might make sense if something less than eternal life is in the balance. That is the main purpose of Christianity isn't it?

 

[Votto]

I suppose that might make sense if something less than eternal life is in the balance. That is the main purpose of Christianity isn't it?

It is brining God's kingdom to earth.

It is not just about the life hereafter.

Jesus changed the world you are in, or had you not noticed?

 

[Hellokitty]

Not what Paul said.
Romans 9
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[a] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[b] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

That's the best term I can come up with to describe what I did. After retirement, I had the time, and thought it worthwhile to study the Bible to become a better Christian. Of course I read the Bible, but I also studied the history of the time, and consulted dozens of commentaries and writings by major Biblical scholors. After about a year, I was positive that many things I had been taught as a child, just weren't justified by the Bible. The inerrant Word of God was full of contradictions, and stories that were almost verbatum taken from older texts about older Gods. Seems that much of what we were taught was borrowed from stories about Gods that were worshipped at the same time Christianity was starting. This question is only one of many that nobody seems to be able to answer.

Can you post any of the scholars or commentaries you read? As a Catholic I would direct you to study scholars such as Scott Hahn or Jimmy Akins.

 

[BULLDOG]

The point is people are given (or have) very little time to learn about the Bible. You said you had to wait until you retired.

So you're one of those "it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you are sincere" people, right?

 

[BULLDOG]

The early Christian Church people chose Paul's letters. They also chose which four Gospels, Apostolic traditions, and books that were considered sacred in Jesus' time. In the entire Bible, people chose books they believed were inspired by God.

Not sure what that has to do with the supposedly one and only way to get to heaven. If those people chose wrong, that would make Christianity a fake religion, right?

 

[BULLDOG]

People ALWAYS choose/make up their own flavor of Christianity, of Judaism, of Buddhism, of any religion, even of atheism. People are unique and they live unique lives. Not everything in the world fits into every life the same way. We are all different, living different lives.

So adherence to any particular set of "god's" laws is not important, right?

 

[Meriweather]

I suppose that might make sense if something less than eternal life is in the balance. That is the main purpose of Christianity isn't it?

Catholicism may have a different teaching of 'eternal life' than Baptists. Many Catholic teachings have roots in Judaism. In Catholic teaching 'eternal' means no beginning and no end. It always is. 'Eternal Life' is not something for the future. We can all step into eternal life right here, right now. We begin living an eternal life with our Baptism, it not something for the future. (Living in love, truth, justice are all aspects of living an 'eternal' life.)

How this aligns with Judaism is that the Jewish belief has always been that God's Law has never been about getting to somewhere else. It has always been about how to live this, our present, life.

 

[BULLDOG]

You fail to see my point.

If you want the best historical authority, you need to go to the earliest accounts.

As I said, Paul was a peer of the disciples and interacted with them.

He was a brother.

He interacted with them, but they shared nothing with him, and basically told him to STFU. They told him to teach the gentiles anything he wanted, but to stay away from the Jews.

25 Historical Proofs The 12 Apostles Utterly Rejected Paul As An Anti-Christ Apostate - Biblical NON-Orthodoxy

Historical Proof The 12 Apostles Utterly Rejected Paul As An Anti-Christ Apostate

nonorthodoxy.com