Zone1 Question for Christians

[BULLDOG]

Curious as to how you did a "deep study of the bible" and come up with this question?

That's the best term I can come up with to describe what I did. After retirement, I had the time, and thought it worthwhile to study the Bible to become a better Christian. Of course I read the Bible, but I also studied the history of the time, and consulted dozens of commentaries and writings by major Biblical scholors. After about a year, I was positive that many things I had been taught as a child, just weren't justified by the Bible. The inerrant Word of God was full of contradictions, and stories that were almost verbatum taken from older texts about older Gods. Seems that much of what we were taught was borrowed from stories about Gods that were worshipped at the same time Christianity was starting. This question is only one of many that nobody seems to be able to answer.

 

[there4eyeM]

There is only one revelation; personal.

 

[Blues Man]

A man of faith once told me, "If you are a person of faith the hardest question is, if God exists why is there suffering? However, if you don't believe in God, you have harder explanation which is explaining everything else"

We all suffer and will die. Nothing will change that after sin came into the world. This is exemplified on the cross as Christ had two thieves next to him. The one on the Left cursed him and said if you be the Son of God get me the F$ck down! as where the other simply asked to remember him as he went back to his kingdom as Jesus welcomed him into his kingdom.

Just know that when Paul and the thief on the right of Jesus died, they had peace eternal.

That assumes you need an explanation for "everything else".

I am quite comfortable saying we don't really know how the universe came to be and in fact I believe we will never know because our brains may not be capable of the thought processes required. I use the example of my dog never being able to understand algebra because her brain is simply incapable of the thought processes necessary for that understanding. IOW a dog's brain has actual physical limits. Now our brains are made up of basically the same stuff as a dog's brain and works in basically the same manner so why is it not possible the human brain has limits as well?

But the question still remains as to how an all knowing god who does nothing can also be all loving?

 

[Votto]

That assumes you need an explanation for "everything else".

I am quite comfortable saying we don't really know how the universe came to be and in fact I believe we will never know because our brains may not be capable of the thought processes required. I use the example of my dog never being able to understand algebra because her brain is simply incapable of the thought processes necessary for that understanding. IOW a dog's brain has actual physical limits. Now our brains are made up of basically the same stuff as a dog's brain and works in basically the same manner so why is it not possible the human brain has limits as well?

But the question still remains as to how an all knowing god who does nothing can also be all loving?

For that we agree, we are incapable of all the answers

So the question becomes, what or who do we place our faith in and why?

 

[Meriweather]

Help me out here. Does God offer the chance to go to heaven to everybody, or just his chosen few, and how do you justify what Paul wrote with the idea of a benevolent forgiving God?

It is necessary to look through the lens of Middle Eastern Culture in ancient times. There was a strong belief that nothing could happen--good or bad--without it first being the will of God. Islam still holds that one cannot so much as move a finger without it first being the will of God.
Let's start with the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. In Biblical culture, Pharaoh's heart could not be hardened without it being the will of God. I see it differently. Ever notice that when two have a difference, an argument or debate only serves to harden the other's position? We saw this with people's position on President Trump. People either hated or cheered for Trump. The more either side tried to persuade someone of the other side, the more the hatred, or the more the cheers.

My position is it is not God who is hardening all these hearts--we are doing it to ourselves. It is not God who moves our finger, we do it ourselves. Now just try to argue me out of this position!

Do you see where I am going with this?

God redeemed the world. It is we, the people, who keep arguing about who is redeemed and who is not. In God's eyes, redemption is for all. In the end, the is Paul's position as well. He says it was bad behavior from Jews that opened redemption to Gentiles, and in the end, the Jews will see their way clear and rejoin God's people. I see both as already God's people.

 

[BULLDOG]

I will take Jesus Christ words over Paul's.

But Christianity as a whole doesn't. There are more quotes from Paul in the New Testiment than there are from Jesus. Many about things Jesus never mentioned. Christians accept Paul's teachings on the same level as Jesus teachings, or even take Paul's word even above Jesus's in many of the things they disagree about.

 

[Votto]

That's the best term I can come up with to describe what I did. After retirement, I had the time, and thought it worthwhile to study the Bible to become a better Christian. Of course I read the Bible, but I also studied the history of the time, and consulted dozens of commentaries and writings by major Biblical scholors. After about a year, I was positive that many things I had been taught as a child, just weren't justified by the Bible. The inerrant Word of God was full of contradictions, and stories that were almost verbatum taken from older texts about older Gods. Seems that much of what we were taught was borrowed from stories about Gods that were worshipped at the same time Christianity was starting. This question is only one of many that nobody seems to be able to answer.

Where exactly does the Bible claim to be inerrent?

Hmm?

It is akin to the church who once condemned those who believed the universe did not revolve around the earth. Well, where does the Bible say it did? It doesn't, rather, the church made it all up based on interpretations of their own.

The gospels are a good example as there are very slight differences in the accounts. However, that just shows that the accounts were not derived from each other and separate. That means that they were two different eyewitness accounts. And if you were in a court of law, those accounts would become evidence, even if they varied in small details, which you would expect them to do. The bottom line is, do they concur enough to be legitimate evidence for something?

 

[hadit]

I was devoutly Christian until I did a deep study of the bible which presented questions I couldn't find the answers to, and nobody I asked even tried to answer. I wish I could reclaim my faith. Believing in a loving, all knowing God who deeply cared about me personally gave me great comfort in hard times, and I wish I could regain peace that came from the belief that all things would work for the good to them that love God. I conveniently ignored the following part that said only those that were called according to his purpose.

Paul was quite specific when he said there is nothing in human desire or effort to gain forgiveness. God will show mercy or harden who he wants, and nothing we believe, say, or do will have anything to do with his choice. (Romans 9: 16-18) Paul goes on to explain that some people were only created as examples of his glory to be shown to the objects of his mercy. (Romans 9: 19-23) Obviously, those people were created to go to hell, since there is nothing they can believe , or do to change Gods decision on mercy.

Help me out here. Does God offer the chance to go to heaven to everybody, or just his chosen few, and how do you justify what Paul wrote with the idea of a benevolent forgiving God?

Do you ask that because you fear that God will reject you no matter what you do?

 

[Votto]

But Christianity as a whole doesn't. There are more quotes from Paul in the New Testiment than there are from Jesus. Many about things Jesus never mentioned. Christians accept Paul's teachings on the same level as Jesus teachings, or even take Paul's word even above Jesus's in many of the things they disagree about.

Paul was chosen by God to write most of the NT

Why do you think that was?

 

[BULLDOG]

So, you're really not looking for rational answers. This is a troll thread meant to bash Christianity. At least be honest about it without pretending to be a lost soul in search for spiritual answers.

So answer the question instead of whining because I asked it.

 

[Blues Man]

For that we agree, we are incapable of all the answers

So the question becomes, what or who do we place our faith in and why?

Why do you have to place faith in anything?

Faith is belief without evidence. Why do I have to believe anything without evidence?

 

[BULLDOG]

If God knew that Pharaoh would reject him, he could simply use that rejection as part of his ultimate plan to help others would would not reject him.

That is how I view what is being said.

Put another way, God did not make Pharaoh reject him, rather, he simply augmented the hardness of his heart to put him on full display so that God would be on display in answering it.

If forgiveness is God's choice, and nothing Pharaoh could think, believe or do would effect it in any way, God created Pharaoh specifically to destroy him. Does a kind loving forgivng god do that?

 

[BULLDOG]

Ummm according to Christians Paul was Jewish, but that's a lie, Saul was Jewish, Paul is actually a trinity of characters like I stated Jesus was...Paul is from the stories of Sergius Paulus called Paul, Appolonius called Pol-both not Jewish.

Lots of stuff in the bible is iffy.

 

[BULLDOG]

Should I try some other language since this post was not understood?

You can try Spanish or French if you like, but what you wrote will still be bullshit.

 

[Meriweather]

That's the best term I can come up with to describe what I did. After retirement, I had the time, and thought it worthwhile to study the Bible to become a better Christian. Of course I read the Bible, but I also studied the history of the time, and consulted dozens of commentaries and writings by major Biblical scholors. After about a year, I was positive that many things I had been taught as a child, just weren't justified by the Bible. The inerrant Word of God was full of contradictions, and stories that were almost verbatum taken from older texts about older Gods. Seems that much of what we were taught was borrowed from stories about Gods that were worshipped at the same time Christianity was starting. This question is only one of many that nobody seems to be able to answer.

I hope some of the Biblical scholars you studied were Jewish rabbis who know the Hebrew language.

First, not everything in the Bible is about us. It addresses certain people in specific times. Finding the themes is vital because it separates the wheat from the chaff. There are many truths, and each individual is greatly affected by some truths, but perhaps not all. A line in a popular 1970s song noted, "They seek the truth before they can die..." Before Christianity, before Judaism, people believed each of them had their own God. (We see this is scripture--The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob.) It is was the ancient perspective of God and in God they would find truth.

 

[BULLDOG]

It is necessary to look through the lens of Middle Eastern Culture in ancient times. There was a strong belief that nothing could happen--good or bad--without it first being the will of God. Islam still holds that one cannot so much as move a finger without it first being the will of God.
Let's start with the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. In Biblical culture, Pharaoh's heart could not be hardened without it being the will of God. I see it differently. Ever notice that when two have a difference, an argument or debate only serves to harden the other's position? We saw this with people's position on President Trump. People either hated or cheered for Trump. The more either side tried to persuade someone of the other side, the more the hatred, or the more the cheers.

My position is it is not God who is hardening all these hearts--we are doing it to ourselves. It is not God who moves our finger, we do it ourselves. Now just try to argue me out of this position!

Do you see where I am going with this?

God redeemed the world. It is we, the people, who keep arguing about who is redeemed and who is not. In God's eyes, redemption is for all. In the end, the is Paul's position as well. He says it was bad behavior from Jews that opened redemption to Gentiles, and in the end, the Jews will see their way clear and rejoin God's people. I see both as already God's people.

By all means,you should hold your position as long as you feel it is accurate, but that's not what the Bible says.

 

[Meriweather]

But Christianity as a whole doesn't. There are more quotes from Paul in the New Testiment than there are from Jesus. Many about things Jesus never mentioned. Christians accept Paul's teachings on the same level as Jesus teachings, or even take Paul's word even above Jesus's in many of the things they disagree about.

Some Christians, perhaps, but not Christianity as a whole. Even decades ago, I was reading where some Christian scholars were noting Paul's despair in the verses you quoted in the OP. Their conclusion is that perhaps Paul should have kept his own despair to himself. Paul could not understand why all Jews could not accept Jesus.

 

[BULLDOG]

Where exactly does the Bible claim to be inerrent?

Hmm?

It is akin to the church who once condemned those who believed the universe did not revolve around the earth. Well, where does the Bible say it did? It doesn't, rather, the church made it all up based on interpretations of their own.

The gospels are a good example as there are very slight differences in the accounts. However, that just shows that the accounts were not derived from each other and separate. That means that they were two different eyewitness accounts. And if you were in a court of law, those accounts would become evidence, even if they varied in small details, which you would expect them to do. The bottom line is, do they concur enough to be legitimate evidence for something?

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[Meriweather]

By all means,you should hold your position as long as you feel it is accurate, but that's not what the Bible says.

It is what ancient culture was. Read the Bible in modern English through the lens of Western culture and the result is an entirely different understanding of what the original author was saying to his original audience. What they understood is entirely different from what we understand. People can get a sense of this when they seriously study the Jewish faith with a mind to the Hebrew language.

 

[BULLDOG]

Do you ask that because you fear that God will reject you no matter what you do?

I ask it because the bible says he rejects some people no matter what they do. That doesn't align with a loving compassionate forgiving god.