PsychoMalarkey

[antagon]

We once knew how to deal with the 'difficult' child and channel his/her 'differences' into something constructive. Just my two cents worth.

We did?

When? How?

yes.
roughly before generation x began raising kids, unfortunately.

firstly, by presuming that this channeling was possible, and that behavior wasn't an indicator of a disease or disability.

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm certain we don't remember the expulsions: Normally the kids simply didn't return after the summer, and we concluded they must have moved away or whatnot. Kids aren't known for their in-depth perceptive powers and synthesis cognitive skills.

The military used to be a place where, if you had a behaviour disorder, you'd simply be thrown in a hole for six weeks, then be given duty clearing a minefield. Today, they simply discharge you.

I have a wealth of experience dealing with behaviour modification, using every technique you can imagine. There is no magic bullet, however, perscritive medication given by a psychiatrist (schools, teachers, etc cannot perscribe these) is ONE possible, and often very effective method. This is particularly useful in modern housholds where both parents are employed full time, and an exausting, time consuming regiem of behaviour modification is not possible.

I am quite sure I do remember the expulsions. In small town America people know pretty much everybody and such does not occur without considerable attention being focused on it. And as a member of a school board, one of my responsibilities was to review disciplinary actions meriting a formal report for appropriateness. Suspensions and expulsions certainly fell into that category.

But no doubt your training, experience, and expertise is far greater than mine and I do bow to superior credentials. I am strictly an amateur in this area.

Do you really condone drugging kids so that parents who both work don't have to deal with them? What is your rationale for that being a good thing?

 

[Samson]

I'm certain we don't remember the expulsions: Normally the kids simply didn't return after the summer, and we concluded they must have moved away or whatnot. Kids aren't known for their in-depth perceptive powers and synthesis cognitive skills.

The military used to be a place where, if you had a behaviour disorder, you'd simply be thrown in a hole for six weeks, then be given duty clearing a minefield. Today, they simply discharge you.

I have a wealth of experience dealing with behaviour modification, using every technique you can imagine. There is no magic bullet, however, perscritive medication given by a psychiatrist (schools, teachers, etc cannot perscribe these) is ONE possible, and often very effective method. This is particularly useful in modern housholds where both parents are employed full time, and an exausting, time consuming regiem of behaviour modification is not possible.

I am quite sure I do remember the expulsions. In small town America people know pretty much everybody and such does not occur without considerable attention being focused on it. And as a member of a school board, one of my responsibilities was to review disciplinary actions meriting a formal report for appropriateness. Suspensions and expulsions certainly fell into that category.

But no doubt your training, experience, and expertise is far greater than mine and I do bow to superior credentials. I am strictly an amateur in this area.

Do you really condone drugging kids so that parents who both work don't have to deal with them? What is your rationale for that being a good thing?

When we talk about the good old days before "PsycoMalarky," I'm referring to pre-IDEA (before 1975). You were on a school board 35+ years ago, then you might be aware of expulsions of what we now would call kids with behavioural disorders, and I applaud your excellent memory: However, among a small town, I doubt the student population represented a National Population.

I do not"condone" the use of perscriptive behaviour altering medications as a "good" thing. Nor do I reject it: I simply recognise it as reality. Sometimes it may be the best choice, other times it may simply be a convenient choice. Either way, unless Americans, particularly women, are willing to accept parenting as a full time job, it's better than nothing.

 

[Samson]

We once knew how to deal with the 'difficult' child and channel his/her 'differences' into something constructive. Just my two cents worth.

We did?

When? How?

yes.
roughly before generation x began raising kids, unfortunately.

firstly, by presuming that this channeling was possible, and that behavior wasn't an indicator of a disease or disability.

This is all well and good if you like vague generalized answers, but let's be optimistic, and test your ability to be specific:

By "When" I mean what year, or years. By "before Generation x began raising kids" do you mean "people who had kids before 1985?"

What exactly were parents doing before this time that allows you to agree with "We once knew how to deal with the 'difficult' child." I mean AFTER they "presumed that this channeling was possible" (whatever the fuck that means) what actions did parents take?

 

[chanel]

I agree with you Samson. For some kids, medication has been a life saver. However, we both know that in order to get the right mix, levels, etc. , it would be in the child's best interest for all adults to monitor the effectiveness over a period of time. And that does not happen. If I put my child on meds, I would want to know when he got tired, hungry, irritable, focused, etc. during the course of a 7 hour day. No one ever asks the teacher. No one even tells the teacher if a child in on meds, switched meds, increased dosage, etc. I only know because my students tell me, and in high school, I only see them for 45 minutes. But for little kids, it's crazy to give a pill and then wait for the report card.

I used to send home questionnaires in the beginning of the school year and had an optional section for "other concerns". Many parents told me about food allergies, insect allergies, vision and hearing problems, seizures, medications, etc. Most folks want the teacher to know, and they probably don't realize that school nurses rarely share that.

 

[Samson]

doping kids and inventing disabilities aren't necessary consequences of professional women. wtf are you talking about? i think half-assed parenting can be distinguished from good parenting which still takes place among all demographics and within generation x.

It doesn't take a genius to know there's a wide range of parenting quality among humans.

When you begin a thread with the premise of "PsychoMalarkey," and then make even your vaugest reference to "70's mindset," it is not a huge logical leap to connect the Women's Movement and Motherhood to increases in behaviour disorders among their children.

It is not my fault if you haven't the capacity to connect dots.

this could be true, buddy. i tried to be specific by pointing to the 'i was born this way' mentality, and being certain to distance my criticism of the civil rights era and the 70s from a criticism of the core values of the time.

i remind that you are the only one to connect the dots as you have. i suppose that i put my capacity for connecting the dots on the butcher block by presuming the roots of the trend in question are derivatives of this era in the first place, but even your logical hop concurs.

the telling contrast is your recognition of 'behaviour disorders' and mine of ol' fashioned misbehavior.

YOU are the one that made the presumption "the roots of the trend in question are derivatives of this era in the first place." However, an inability to understand your own garbled verbage is quite understandable.

I'd be astonished if there has been much attention drawn between the fact that women became less involved in parenting, and the rise of diagnosis for behaviour disorders in children: It's not the pretty picture that Feminists in the Media, Academia, or the Government like to paint.

 

[antagon]

We did?

When? How?

yes.
roughly before generation x began raising kids, unfortunately.

firstly, by presuming that this channeling was possible, and that behavior wasn't an indicator of a disease or disability.

This is all well and good if you like vague generalized answers, but let's be optimistic, and test your ability to be specific:

i wonder what kind of answers should be expected from vague, generalized questions?

By "When" I mean what year, or years. By "before Generation x began raising kids" do you mean "people who had kids before 1985?"

maybe its not sensible to think social trends stop and start on a dime. maybe i already said that shit in the OP:

Its at least epidemic in the rearing of kids born in the late 80s and beyond.

What exactly were parents doing before this time that allows you to agree with "We once knew how to deal with the 'difficult' child." I mean AFTER they "presumed that this channeling was possible" (whatever the fuck that means) what actions did parents take?

no more criticism of my writing, samson. its the lamest form of argument. you say my writing can't be understood, a problem only you and PoliticalChic seem to have, but you can't figure out 'whatever the fuck' "channel his/her 'differences' into something constructive" might have to do with my reference to the same. i wonder what that says about your comprehension ability or more likely your willingness to comprehend?

i'll elaborate from my personal experience. in my upbringing, i was told right from wrong and punished for the latter. i was lectured and informed about the roles my foul behavior back then would play if i applied them nowadays, as an adult. my hyperactivity was channeled into sports from very young. discipline from that sphere of my life and related to my parent's standards of academic achievement taught me when to apply my capacity for focusing and when to be active.

having been born in 78, i was educated at a point when teachers would go to little weekend seminars to get informed about ways to label kids with the acronyms we're talking about. my mother is old school, and when confronted with advice from these johnny come lately seminar shrinks, her better judgment prevailed, and she persisted in the above, which was similar to how she was raised. i attribute this to faith: she "presumed that this channeling was possible" and that it could have positive results.

this shit didn't go smoothly the whole time; teachers didn't want to talk to my mom for nothing. but i think there were positive results in the end with me and my brother. she's proud anyhow... she says.

i'm proud of how i turned out and the methods i feel are responsible for it. i'll try to get down that way when i have kids, despite some - not all - of my fellow gen x'ers buying the psychomalarkey.

 

[Samson]

yes.
roughly before generation x began raising kids, unfortunately.

firstly, by presuming that this channeling was possible, and that behavior wasn't an indicator of a disease or disability.

This is all well and good if you like vague generalized answers, but let's be optimistic, and test your ability to be specific:

i wonder what kind of answers should be expected from vague, generalized questions?

maybe its not sensible to think social trends stop and start on a dime. maybe i already said that shit in the OP:

Its at least epidemic in the rearing of kids born in the late 80s and beyond.

What exactly were parents doing before this time that allows you to agree with "We once knew how to deal with the 'difficult' child." I mean AFTER they "presumed that this channeling was possible" (whatever the fuck that means) what actions did parents take?

no more criticism of my writing, samson. its the lamest form of argument. you say my writing can't be understood, a problem only you and PoliticalChic seem to have, but you can't figure out 'whatever the fuck' "channel his/her 'differences' into something constructive" might have to do with my reference to the same. i wonder what that says about your comprehension ability or more likely your willingness to comprehend?

Can anyone interpret whatever point antagon is attempting to make?

Did he answer the relatively simple question?

Your refusal to accept constructive criticisim is the root cause of your poor writing.

 

[Samson]

yes.
roughly before generation x began raising kids, unfortunately.

firstly, by presuming that this channeling was possible, and that behavior wasn't an indicator of a disease or disability.

This is all well and good if you like vague generalized answers, but let's be optimistic, and test your ability to be specific:

i wonder what kind of answers should be expected from vague, generalized questions?

maybe its not sensible to think social trends stop and start on a dime. maybe i already said that shit in the OP:

Its at least epidemic in the rearing of kids born in the late 80s and beyond.

What exactly were parents doing before this time that allows you to agree with "We once knew how to deal with the 'difficult' child." I mean AFTER they "presumed that this channeling was possible" (whatever the fuck that means) what actions did parents take?

i'll elaborate from my personal experience. in my upbringing, i was told right from wrong and punished for the latter.

So....This is your answer to parenting: Tell kids what's right, and what's wrong, and simply punish behaviour that is wrong. And this works for ALL kids because it worked for you.

You know, despite your singular experience's lack of depth and breath, I wonder if you could imagine what might happen if punishment didn't work? I know it may be difficult, but try the hypothesis: that some mightn't have had the same experience that you have had.

 

[lizzie]

we can't deal with uneducated bums bringing six or eight kids into the world while responsible people bring in 1 or 2. eventually society is going to collapse if we don't fix it.

I wonder how we've made it for the past 10,000 years?

We didn't have anywhere near our current levels of medical technology, mass food production, or social welfare programs. Another one of those double-edged swords I'm so fond of.

 

[jeffrockit]

There is some research on that. I've discovered that changing up activities every 10-15 mins or so keeps the kids engaged.

A study published in the April 2004 issue of Pediatrics concluded that exposure to television in children aged 1- to 3-years-old increased the risk of developing attention-related problems at age 7. In follow-up studies, the researchers found that early TV viewing was also associated with cognitive trouble and problems in school as children aged.

Television and ADHD - MSN Health & Fitness - ADHD/ADD

Wry - I teach 12th grade. The girl is one of four being raised by mom. No dad in house. She has "friends" but they are mostly cousins. No counseling; no probation and as far as I know; no medicine.
She didn't graduate last year and will be back for a fifth year at 19 years old. She was put in an alternative program but "didn't get along with the kids there" so she came back to regular school. Not uncommon these days. She's involved in her church. Maybe they can help her. I tried everything. Her mom is polite; but also an excuse maker. They ended up moving her out of my class mid-way and put her with a teacher who doesn't assign homework and lets them cut class. Not uncommon either. Errr! She still ended up failing.

Thinking out of the box I wonder how she might respond to a bit of responsibility. What if you ask her to be your TA? This may strike you as absurd - and it may very well be absurd - but by giving her some status, some extra credit, and a bit of one on one attention she may become a real aide.

The problem there is in class rooms that have almost 30 students, giving 1 on 1 time for an unruly one, takes away precious time with the others that want to learn. These distractions should not be tolerated but with govt schools, you must be PC in every aspect. Schools are in fear of lawsuits that come up based on these student types. Why spend more time that you don't have with one student and sacrifice the rest? I suggest putting all of these types of students together in 1 class room. Segregate them so that the others can learn without distractions. Never happen though in the PC govt schools.

 

[antagon]

This is all well and good if you like vague generalized answers, but let's be optimistic, and test your ability to be specific:

i wonder what kind of answers should be expected from vague, generalized questions?

maybe its not sensible to think social trends stop and start on a dime. maybe i already said that shit in the OP:

What exactly were parents doing before this time that allows you to agree with "We once knew how to deal with the 'difficult' child." I mean AFTER they "presumed that this channeling was possible" (whatever the fuck that means) what actions did parents take?

i'll elaborate from my personal experience. in my upbringing, i was told right from wrong and punished for the latter.

So....This is your answer to parenting: Tell kids what's right, and what's wrong, and simply punish behaviour that is wrong. And this works for ALL kids because it worked for you.

You know, despite your singular experience's lack of depth and breath, I wonder if you could imagine what might happen if punishment didn't work? I know it may be difficult, but try the hypothesis: that some mightn't have had the same experience that you have had.

derrr, try this hypothesis: that instead of pursuing what was effective for children who excelled in education, educators pursued and are but in the early stages of an experiment on young children.

discipline didn't work all of the time; it doesn't. the expectation of magic pills which work all of the time is not a natural solution, and i feel that natural solutions ought run their course before psych evaluations are undertaken, children are labeled and treatments are suggested. our public schools have no manner of education which informs young kids how they are supposed to behave as students. if children don't receive an education on right and wrong behavior early on, i think the science which attempts to diagnose behavior in children acting outside this box is simply flawed.

i see this as being the status quo. the system applies their methods of labeling and the associated treatments before integrating some of the fundamental practices of parenting. at the same time, educators regularly point out that flawed parenting is at the core of their underperforming or misbehaved students' behavior. there's been i digression of classroom disciplinary measures - baby and bathwater - with an accommodationist approach taken in their stead. where that's failed, they're ready to drug the kids.

without any discipline being applied at school and perhaps not at home, it is no wonder these diagnoses and treatments are rampant.

could you imagine if dermatologists and oncologists just treated skin cancer cases, rather than developing and employing preventative measures like sunblock and good advice about exposure to the sun?

 

[antagon]

no more criticism of my writing, samson. its the lamest form of argument. you say my writing can't be understood, a problem only you and PoliticalChic seem to have, but you can't figure out 'whatever the fuck' "channel his/her 'differences' into something constructive" might have to do with my reference to the same. i wonder what that says about your comprehension ability or more likely your willingness to comprehend?

Can anyone interpret whatever point antagon is attempting to make?

Did he answer the relatively simple question?

Your refusal to accept constructive criticisim is the root cause of your poor writing.

what's been constructive about that bullshit, samson? don't play yourself internet guy; nothing about you or the way you write informs that your advice might carry any weight compared to folks in the real world who pay me for my writing.

you cant even understand plain english, and have pointed that out several times including above.

 

[Samson]

no more criticism of my writing, samson. its the lamest form of argument. you say my writing can't be understood, a problem only you and PoliticalChic seem to have, but you can't figure out 'whatever the fuck' "channel his/her 'differences' into something constructive" might have to do with my reference to the same. i wonder what that says about your comprehension ability or more likely your willingness to comprehend?

Can anyone interpret whatever point antagon is attempting to make?

Did he answer the relatively simple question?

Your refusal to accept constructive criticisim is the root cause of your poor writing.

what's been constructive about that bullshit, samson? don't play yourself internet guy; nothing about you or the way you write informs that your advice might carry any weight compared to folks in the real world who pay me for my writing.

you cant even understand plain english, and have pointed that out several times including above.

Is English your primary language?

 

[Samson]

we can't deal with uneducated bums bringing six or eight kids into the world while responsible people bring in 1 or 2. eventually society is going to collapse if we don't fix it.

I wonder how we've made it for the past 10,000 years?

We didn't have anywhere near our current levels of medical technology, mass food production, or social welfare programs. Another one of those double-edged swords I'm so fond of.

I'm confident Mother Nature will even the score.

She can be a real bitch.

 

[Samson]

i wonder what kind of answers should be expected from vague, generalized questions?

maybe its not sensible to think social trends stop and start on a dime. maybe i already said that shit in the OP:




i'll elaborate from my personal experience. in my upbringing, i was told right from wrong and punished for the latter.

So....This is your answer to parenting: Tell kids what's right, and what's wrong, and simply punish behaviour that is wrong. And this works for ALL kids because it worked for you.

You know, despite your singular experience's lack of depth and breath, I wonder if you could imagine what might happen if punishment didn't work? I know it may be difficult, but try the hypothesis: that some mightn't have had the same experience that you have had.

derrr, try this hypothesis: that instead of pursuing what was effective for children who excelled in education, educators pursued and are but in the early stages of an experiment on young children.

discipline didn't work all of the time; it doesn't. the expectation of magic pills which work all of the time is not a natural solution, and i feel that natural solutions ought run their course before psych evaluations are undertaken, children are labeled and treatments are suggested....blah, blah, blah

For Christssakes.

Ok, now that you're on the right page, what is the "Natural Solution" after punishment doesn't work?

Is it that you don't know the answer, or just don't want to admit what the answer is?

Try to explain without your customary 250 words of evasive bullshit.

 

[antagon]

Can anyone interpret whatever point antagon is attempting to make?

Did he answer the relatively simple question?

Your refusal to accept constructive criticisim is the root cause of your poor writing.

what's been constructive about that bullshit, samson? don't play yourself internet guy; nothing about you or the way you write informs that your advice might carry any weight compared to folks in the real world who pay me for my writing.

you cant even understand plain english, and have pointed that out several times including above.

Is English your primary language?

yes.

 

[antagon]

So....This is your answer to parenting: Tell kids what's right, and what's wrong, and simply punish behaviour that is wrong. And this works for ALL kids because it worked for you.

You know, despite your singular experience's lack of depth and breath, I wonder if you could imagine what might happen if punishment didn't work? I know it may be difficult, but try the hypothesis: that some mightn't have had the same experience that you have had.

derrr, try this hypothesis: that instead of pursuing what was effective for children who excelled in education, educators pursued and are but in the early stages of an experiment on young children.

discipline didn't work all of the time; it doesn't. the expectation of magic pills which work all of the time is not a natural solution, and i feel that natural solutions ought run their course before psych evaluations are undertaken, children are labeled and treatments are suggested....blah, blah, blah

For Christssakes.

Ok, now that you're on the right page, what is the "Natural Solution" after punishment doesn't work?

Is it that you don't know the answer, or just don't want to admit what the answer is?

Try to explain without your customary 250 words of evasive bullshit.

punishment isn't the only component of discipline. you are the one who decided to simplify my statement to the mere role of punishment. have another read, and once you are convinced that all of that isn't transferrable to anyone but myself, i'll educate you with more ways you can elicit success from humans without drugs.

i wonder if your insistence on defending ineffective public school methodology is what's shared by the administrators and policy makers who have put on this debacle in the first place.

 

[Barb]

derrr, try this hypothesis: that instead of pursuing what was effective for children who excelled in education, educators pursued and are but in the early stages of an experiment on young children.

discipline didn't work all of the time; it doesn't. the expectation of magic pills which work all of the time is not a natural solution, and i feel that natural solutions ought run their course before psych evaluations are undertaken, children are labeled and treatments are suggested....blah, blah, blah

For Christssakes.

Ok, now that you're on the right page, what is the "Natural Solution" after punishment doesn't work?

Is it that you don't know the answer, or just don't want to admit what the answer is?

Try to explain without your customary 250 words of evasive bullshit.

punishment isn't the only component of discipline. you are the one who decided to simplify my statement to the mere role of punishment. have another read, and once you are convinced that all of that isn't transferrable to anyone but myself, i'll educate you with more ways you can elicit success from humans without drugs.

i wonder if your insistence on defending ineffective public school methodology is what's shared by the administrators and policy makers who have put on this debacle in the first place.

Okay, what about re-direction, or better yet, teaching methods geared towards specific learning styles?
There are (I think) four, maybe five.
Instead of labeling everyone who does not conform to the ONE currently taught as "disabled," maybe K-12 could ENABLE their educators with the same tools college students are given in general education studies. Can't hurt, could help...who knows?

 

[Samson]

derrr, try this hypothesis: that instead of pursuing what was effective for children who excelled in education, educators pursued and are but in the early stages of an experiment on young children.

discipline didn't work all of the time; it doesn't. the expectation of magic pills which work all of the time is not a natural solution, and i feel that natural solutions ought run their course before psych evaluations are undertaken, children are labeled and treatments are suggested....blah, blah, blah

For Christssakes.

Ok, now that you're on the right page, what is the "Natural Solution" after punishment doesn't work?

Is it that you don't know the answer, or just don't want to admit what the answer is?

Try to explain without your customary 250 words of evasive bullshit.

punishment isn't the only component of discipline. you are the one who decided to simplify my statement to the mere role of punishment. have another read, and once you are convinced that all of that isn't transferrable to anyone but myself, i'll educate you with more ways you can elicit success from humans without drugs.

i wonder if your insistence on defending ineffective public school methodology is what's shared by the administrators and policy makers who have put on this debacle in the first place.

Was I defending public school methodology? Where? If anything, I've consistantly stated that public schools have nothing to do with perscribing behaviour modifying drugs. Nor have I even implied that drugs should be the choice of first resort, but rather the last.

To assume modern medicine is NEVER the appropriate choice, and that punishment (the only alternative you've mentioned:

"i'll elaborate from my personal experience. in my upbringing, i was told right from wrong and punished for the latter."


and a "Natural" Behaviour Modification Ladder of progressively serious consequences/and or rewards, works for everyone, is simply absurd.

Shit, I wouldn't be surprised if you were taking Blue Mass (33 parts mercury), to loosen your bowels, because that's what's always worked for you, and you hobble about with heavy metal poisoning explaining its benefits to whomever will listen.